Cyclist Hit by train: Inadvertent drift?

[noisebeam]

You're slowing from the start of the clip. Your brakes squeek to an almost-stop at 7 seconds. Looks like you're doing a track stand, but the car in front of you does not start moving for 3 more seconds (:10). That's plenty long enough to take a quick look back behind you over your shoulder just to say "hi". I suggest it's a good habit to develop.
Maybe its just not the best time to be looking back - maybe I'm taking note of the light, what the vehicle ahead is doing, checking my mirror to see how many vehicles are in the outside lane, maybe the SUV was further back at that time and only caught up to me as I was accelerating - I don't think they started tailgaiting until the 20sec point. Sure I communicate with most drivers behind me, but not all, for a given stretch of this road I get dozens of drivers behind me as the line of vehicles in the outside lane behind me pass one at a time.

Al

[noisebeam]

Here is the 17s honk video. Note after a while of honking where I was looking back a lot, even smiled, and giving several slow signal, some for multiple seconds, I even move left biased. I suppose the reason they stopped honking is because I moved so far to the left, right? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z6rLcJqhE4

Al

[SSP]

Here is the 17s honk video. Note after a while of honking where I was looking back a lot, even smiled, and giving several slow signal, some for multiple seconds, I even move left biased. I suppose the reason they stopped honking is because I moved so far to the left, right? ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z6rLcJqhE4

Al

For that kind of honk, I'd sit up on the bike and stop pedalling (while keeping center lane position and an eye on the driver in my mirror). I'd also be mighty tempted to throw the finger, and would probably pull out my pepper spray and cell phone as a precaution.

[Helmet Head]

Your simply wrong to assume that something could have been done to prevent the close pass or the initial honk. More perhaps could have been done, but there is no certainty that it would have been prevented. As galen said in the original thread to paraphrase ~"the driver would have closed passed no matter where you were"
What have I written today or in the original thread that leads you to believe that I assumed (necessarily) something could have been done to prevent the close pass or initial honk? I think I was very careful to make clear that I was thinking maybe or perhaps even probably something could have done, but there is no way I could know for sure whether there was or was not something that could be done.

And if I had done more and the honk and/or close pass did occur you would still say more could be done or what was done was not done perfectly.
If the clip showed you trying a left-of-center position somewhere during the 17 seconds between leaving the intersection (:17) and being honked at (:34), and if you had noted that you noticed him getting too close eariler and tried some of that stuff prior to the point where he was already tailgating you, then, yes, I would say that probably there was nothing that could have been done.

Anyway, the reason I know you are wrong, is because I am too and I am wrong because I don't recall all the specifics with enough clarity to be right and neither can you.
We agree that I would be wrong had I made the assumption you're (wrongly) assuming I made.

Do you still think I'm wrong about anything else?

Anyway, why after looking back at motorist, giving slow signal, did they still honk and close pass?

I'm surmising, of course, but it might have been too little too late. By the time they honked, they had been following you for 17 seconds. It's unclear how much time elapsed between the first time you acknowledged knowing they were there and when they honked, but it's likely they had been behind you long enough to get really frustrated.

There was a hotel guy on the radio I heard a few weeks ago talking about meeting customer expectations, and how much satisfaction/frustration is tied to expectations. I think this is true in general in humans, and applies on the road just as much as it does in hotels and everywhere else. If they had the "he needs to get out of my way" expectation from the light, that's probably close to 30 seconds of frustration building up following you in a "neither here nor there" position (from their perspective) before you acknowledged them.

Can't you just picture them thinking all along... "Doesn't he know we're behind him? Why is he not moving aside so I can squeeze by?" Is it any wonder that someone like that would finally honk?

So the key is to correct the expectation from the beginning, before it is too late. In hotel management today, it's on the website, it's at the time the reservations are being made, etc. In this traffic situation, it might have been way back at the light. In particular, you have to quash the expectation that you will be moving out of their way. Exactly how you do that varies, because what works with one driver won't work with the next. But, again, you had a considerable amount of time to work on that, and, apparently, you didn't. What working on it means observing in your mirror the behavior of the driver behind you and assessing what they may or may not need to see to adjust their expectations appropriately. Not even acknowledging their presence until when you look back all you can is the grill is most assuredly not doing that. At that point it's probably too late. That's probably (but not necessarily) why they still honked and passed too closely after you looked back and issued the slow/stop signal. It's also possible that they would have done that no matter what you had done to try to set their expectations appropriately and sufficiently early, but we'll never know because you didn't do that.

[SSP]

Do you still think I'm wrong about anything else?

Two specifics come to mind:

1) Nearly all of your speculations about what "could have been done" between 17 and 34 seconds. :rolleyes:

2) Your apparent opinion that the weight of your logic is proportional to the number of words you write.

[SSP]

So the key is to correct the expectation from the beginning, before it is too late.

I agree....shoot out the guy's tires at the first honk. :rolleyes:

[noisebeam]

If they had the "he needs to get out of my way" expectation from the light, that's probably close to 30 seconds of frustration building up following you in a "neither here nor there" position (from their perspective) before you acknowledged them. .
He didn't get close to me unitl the :20 mark. He was way beyond a zone of communication at the light. If you note there is a long line of cars in the inside lane at the light and this guy went from inside lane to outside to get a jump on traffic only to then find me at the :20 mark.

Note the black sedan 5 cars back in the inside lane. This sedan doesn't even pass me until after the SUV has passed. The SUV driver was impatient because of the 'slow' inside lane then encountered me.

Al

[Helmet Head]

Two specifics come to mind:

1) Nearly all of your speculations about what "could have been done" between 17 and 34 seconds. :rolleyes:

2) Your apparent opinion that the weight of your logic is proportional to the number of words you write.
1) What I speculate "could have been done" between 17 and 34 seconds is:

monitor follower's behavior in a rear-view mirror
adjust left (to left of grease-colored pavement), perhaps as far left as the left tire track, if they are getting too close (before they are too close).
look back at them with a nod or smile if they are getting too close (before they are too close).
issue the slow/stop signal if they are getting too close (before they are too close - Al only did after all he could see was their grill when he looked behind him).

What's wrong with those suggestions?

2) It takes long enough to write what I have to say and to do it reasonably clearly. It would take even longer to figure out how to do it more succinctly without sacrificing clarity. Sorry!

[SSP]

In particular, you have to quash the expectation that you will be moving out of their way.

I've found the middle finger delivers that message quite unambiguously...though it doesn't always result in the JAM granting me ROW.

[Helmet Head]

He didn't get close to me unitl the :20 mark. He was way beyond a zone of communication at the light. If you note there is a long line of cars in the inside lane at the light and this guy went from inside lane to outside to get a jump on traffic only to then find me at the :20 mark.

Note the black sedan 5 cars back in the inside lane. This sedan doesn't even pass me until after the SUV has passed. The SUV driver was impatient because of the 'slow' inside lane then encountered me.

Al
There is no indication (in the video or in your narrative) of you adjusting left or doing anything else to acknowledge him at :20 or at any point until all you could see was his grill when you looked back. Correct?

[noisebeam]

There is no indication (in the video or in your narrative) of you adjusting left or doing anything else to acknowledge him at :20 or at any point until all you could see was his grill when you looked back. Correct?
In the narrative I note that at about the :20 mark I look back to find suddenly this SUV on my tail. I recall he may have merged right into the outside lane, which may be why I didn't notice him until he was close, or maybe I did but like most other slowly approaching motorists did not need to be dealt with. (Yes, each and every approaching motorist can be proactively dealt with with a slow signal, but I'll bet you don't do this 100% of the time)
The first thing I did was give the slow signal. This actually worked for a moment, he backed off, then after backing off hit the acceleator hard (you can hear it at about the :30 mark) which is when I moved further right. The slow signal seemed to antagonize.

Anyway, please don't comment any more. Of course there are things I could do differentlly - I mention that twice on the first page of the orignal thread.

You seem more concerned by being called wrong than by anything else and I imagine you won't let up until I correct this.

How bout that 19sec honk video?

Al

[SSP]

There is no indication (in the video or in your narrative) of you adjusting left or doing anything else to acknowledge him at :20 or at any point until all you could see was his grill when you looked back. Correct?

Give it a f%$#@ing rest HH!

Al was properly positioned, and signalled to the motorist (thus, "acknowledging" him). The SUV driver was an impatient honking *sshole who chose to ignore common courtesy and rules of the road.

Your persistence in splitting hairs (counting seconds), and asserting that Al could have established some sort of mutually beneficial "relationship" in that scenario is simply more in a long line of your ridiculous speculations and pontifications.

[ghettocruiser]

I'm getting a compulsive urge to make my own entry in the "longest honk video" classification.


I've soaked at least 3 seconds worth of honk from a car behind taking the curb lane of an eight lane road with no other traffic whatsoever. So actually taking a lane when it's hard to get around me should rack up some pretty good times.

[Helmet Head]

You seem more concerned by being called wrong than by anything else
Not quite. It's not about being called wrong, it's the possibilty that I said something that was wrong, which, if there was, I would want to correct.

and I imagine you won't let up until I correct this.
No. I'm done. Nothing was raised about what I actually said that needed to be corrected.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I'm getting a compulsive urge to make my own entry in the "longest honk video" classification.
This is how to safely share the road with a honker.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9970/goosehazardfw3.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goosehazardfw3.jpg)

[recursive]

I've found the middle finger delivers that message quite unambiguously...though it doesn't always result in the JAM granting me ROW.

I'm so proud!

[SSP]

I'm so proud!

You should be...that's a great acronym. Thanks for adding it to the SCL (Standard Cyclists' Lexicon).

[SSP]

This is how to safely share the road with a honker.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9970/goosehazardfw3.th.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=goosehazardfw3.jpg)

Whoa....you made an on-topic joke!!?? Will wonders never cease...

Is it Happy Hour in Iowa? Are you posting from the bar? Enquiring serious cyclists want to know.

[SingingSabre]

HH, you're hijacking a thread with useless, hot aired speculation. Give it up.

Back to the original point: the train was obviously out of line. It should not have been drifting left, what with the tracks not letting it go off course.

Lay off it.

[Helmet Head]

How bout that 19sec honk video?

What a jerk, obviously. Again, it seems like frustration coupled with the expectation that you should get out of the way.

Since the clip begins seconds before the honking starts, it's hard to say anything about what I've lead up to that.

There seems to be a brief tap of the horn right when you get into the intersection, then, perhaps out of frustration that you didn't turn or somehow get out of the way, they starti laying on it as you exit the intersection.

I will note that you again maintain a consistent lateral position a bit right of center. I'd like to see my own riding on video, but I suspect I adjust more often than you do. Maybe not, but it's my sense that I tend to make lateral adjustment in response to changes behind me. I definitely make more of an adjustment as I approach and go through intersections.

[sbhikes]

Nee-nur nee-nur nee-nur. I told you so. I told you so. I told you so. More inches left. Less inches right. You chose the wrong split second to issue a signal. You didn't do this. You didn't do that. I'm an expert and you are not.
If only you'd have chosen the correct inch of road the driver would have smiled and waved as he went by. Instead your lack of proper inchiness caused him to react that way. For shame.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Whoa....you made an on-topic joke!!?? Will wonders never cease...

Is it Happy Hour in Iowa? Are you posting from the bar? Enquiring serious cyclists want to know.
You mean this is the first joke you figured out, eh?

Everything about this thread is a dang joke. Some as intended by the OP, others, because they must be Serious Jokers. Especially humorous, but apparently unintended, is the gibberish from you-know-who and those that take him seriously and debate endlessly about minutia.

[Helmet Head]

If only you'd have chosen the correct inch of road the driver would have smiled and waved as he went by. Instead your lack of proper inchiness caused him to react that way. For shame.
I guess if you can't criticize what I actually write, you have to make stuff up and criticize that. It's pathetic.

[SSP]

You mean this is the first joke you figured out, eh?

Everything about this thread is a dang joke. Some as intended by the OP, others, because they must be Serious Jokers. Especially humorous, but apparently unintended, is the gibberish from you-know-who and those that take him seriously and debate endlessly about minutia.

Happy Friday....enjoy your beers and be safe when pedalling home.

[sbhikes]

you-know-who

Lord Voldemort.

[noisebeam]

I will note that you again maintain a consistent lateral position a bit right of center.
Is that really what you saw? Just after the initial tap on the horn I move left about 6". Then I drift right a bit (when I am looking back for long periods of time) Then I move a bit left of the grease strip shortlyl before the honking stops.

Al

[noisebeam]

I will note that you again maintain a consistent lateral position a bit right of center. .
Yeah thats about right. Its hard to tell in the video but in center the pavement is much bumpier as so few tires roll on it and it is raised relative to the tire tracks - heat does great damage to pavement here, sometimes (not on this road) there is actually a 2-3" vertical ledge between raised center and tire tracks.
Al

[Helmet Head]

Is that really what you saw? Just after the initial tap on the horn I move left about 6". Then I drift right a bit (when I am looking back for long periods of time) Then I move a bit left of the grease strip shortlyl before the honking stops.

Al
The only place I see you on the grease is around :16-:22. Never do I see you to the left of it, much less near the left tire track. Everywhere else you appear to be to the right of the grease.

[Helmet Head]

The only place I see you on the grease is around :16-:22. Never do I see you to the left of it, much less near the left tire track. Everywhere else you appear to be to the right of the grease.
By the way, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that.

I'm just pointing out, however, that moving into the area to the left of the grease, up to the left tire track, can be a useful communication tool. From the clips that you've shown, it seems that you don't make much use of that tool, if you will. Use of this tool MIGHT help in some of these situations. Ultimately, that's all I'm trying to say.

[remsav]

No, drift isn't possible so most likely it was the faulty, malfunctioning x signal or the conductor forgot to honk or didn't slow down or maybe the driver was drunk/on drugs or both.

suprised no one went ballistic with that much honking, shoot I would have stopped thinking I had someone under my wheel with that long and persistent warning honk.

[noisebeam]

Never do I see you to the left of it, much less near the left tire track.
If I put my cursor in the center of the bottom edge of the video frame I see that my position is left of the center, not by much, but left, even just where the grease fades. Not on left tire track, but nowhere did I say I was.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, why are you being so nitpicky about it? I was only responding to you saying that I didn't adjust lateral position. Clearly I did if I went from right tire track to a bit left of center.

I've ridden left of center as an experiment on this road. It tends to bring on more aggressive reponse, including close passes and honks even if I move right after vehicle approaches. (If I move right too soon they think I am making room and it could bring on a close pass)

Overall the best on average response I get is riding just inside the right tire track, then when I note that driver is not going to try and squeeze by I move a bit further right to facilitate an easier pass for them using some of the adjacent lane.

See my nice ride video for this: (Warning it is boring as nothing much happens, although I was cruising at 25-30mph which is fun)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5oz68pMWoM
To note about this video - I communicated with many same direction drivers who were in my lane and merged around me. Often with slow signal. At one point a truck followed me for a moment and was non-aggressive, I 'rewarded' this behavior and moved far right to let him pass and he passed very considerately.

Staying far left just bring out the worst in some and puts closer to the inside lane with passing traffic than I'd like to be.

Al

[sbhikes]

Who the heck cares whether Al was the appropriate inchiness away from "centerish". The behavior of the drivers in those videos was out of line plain and simple. All they had to do was pass him calmly in the left lane and get on with their lives but instead they chose to harrass and endanger Al with honking and dangerous close passing. He did not deserve any of this.

[Bekologist]

What a train wreck of a thread!!!!!

please, somone stop the bliviots.

this thread is, was, was intended to be about a fella getting hit by a train.

it turned into a helmet hed soapbox, a total trainwreck. pathetic. disgusting. what a loser, and i mean that sincerely.

no compassion for the guy that got hit by a train, just more of the same blather about lane position and head waggling riding style.

Al, have you figured out mr. helmet head doesn't understand the nuance involved with bicycling in traffic?

For hed, its' more of the armchair, sophmoric approach.

I hope the fella that got hit by the train has a speedy recovery and doesn't try to outrun a train if thats' what happened. I'm still having a hard time figuring out how the train got on the road in the first place.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I'm still having a hard time figuring out how the train got on the road in the first place.
Haven't you ever heard of inadvertent drift and conspicuous conspicuity? Someone needs to provide an explanation and a theory about how those two phenomena probably are the cause of the accident in the OP.:rolleyes:

[LCI_Brian]

Oh, my, I'm just the last couple of pages of this thread now - how embarrassing after sending Al and HH PM's on the same subject without knowing they've been discussing this earlier!

One thing I know from shooting on-bike video is that it's really hard to determine the cyclist's lane position using just the camera view from the cyclist. It just takes the slightest camera misalignment to give the optical illusion that the cyclist is closer or further to the curb than he really is.

This thread was about a train?

[LCI_Brian]

Who the heck cares whether Al was the appropriate inchiness away from "centerish". The behavior of the drivers in those videos was out of line plain and simple. All they had to do was pass him calmly in the left lane and get on with their lives but instead they chose to harrass and endanger Al with honking and dangerous close passing. He did not deserve any of this.
Actually, I tend to position myself center or slightly left of center in a NOL, but I do have to agree with Diane in this particular scenario. Let's face it, if a driver is enough of a jerk to honk for 17 seconds, I doubt it would have mattered whether Al was in the left tire track or the right tire track.

[Bekologist]

Brian, this thread is about a train hitting a bicyclist, not al's road jousts.

Do you have anything to add on topic with the original post???

Was the engineer a bit harsh to the fella that got hit by the train? Was the train drifting inadverdantly?

I'm STILL trying to figure out why the train engineer was on the road. Don't the trains have their own track and rail?

I personally feel if the engineer in charge of the train is a gorilla, he is likely not to be seen by the bicyclist, regardless of his basketball skills. The b-ball skills of the gorilla, not the bicyclist, I mean.

[genec]

Brian, this thread is about a train hitting a bicyclist, not al's road jousts.



Actually the toungue in cheek title of this thread is somewhat directed at some of the "advocacy" that is constantly offered here and a discussion of it.

Clearly a cyclist being hit by a train is the cyclists' fault... trains run a very predictable path and any cyclist should be able to tell where they would be safe.

But the "inadvertent drift" issue is one that has been discussed ad nausea with some cyclists taking the position that some minor adjustment in position will yield a better cycling environment, be it visibility or "acceptance" on the road.

The reality is that lane position may be effective in some cases, but in others can lead to aggravation. Perhaps a better question is why is it that some motorists can be "trained," while others seem to have this inherent belief that they "own the road."

What can be done to let the latter motorists understand that they MUST share the road with others... in particular with pedestrians and cyclists. 3 foot laws are a good start, but only work when the driving public is aware of the laws, and the rights of cyclists... Otherwise, having such laws and rights and not telling ALL those effected, is like winning the lottery, but never having checked the ticket.

I have to laught (ironically) at a sign I see on on occasion at this particular intersection... it states that motorists must: "Stop and Wait for Pedestrians to Cross Completely." This is a state law... yet apparently motorists believe they don't have to stop and wait for peds in the crosswalk... to such an extent that they need a specific sign telling them to do just that. Apparently the aspect of sharing the road with others is somewhat missing in the minds of some motorists.

[Bekologist]

Al, I know, I know.

I'm STILL confused about the train being in the road. I mean, don't they have their own tracks? Why was the train in the travel lanes, anyway?

[BroMax]

The experiment was repeated in Florida, with the same results:

17 January 2007 - _Local10.com_
(http://www.local10.com/news/10759278/detail.html)
BSO Says Man Tried To Beat Train
A 44-year-old bicyclist was struck by an Amtrak train and killed Monday
night in an effort to beat the train, the Broward Sheriff`s Office said.
It happened at about 7:15 p.m. near the intersection of Powerline and
Prospect roads.
Witnesses told BSO deputies that the man was riding his bike westbound on
Prospect Road when he peddled through the lowered gates and tried to cross the
tracks before the train approached. His body was found about 30 yards from
the point of impact.
The 19-car, two-engine train was traveling about 79 mph, according to the
BSO.
There were no passengers on the train and no injuries were reported.
The man`s name was not released pending notification of next of kin.

[SamHouston]

Bromax it's sad that Darwin claimed another, but safety issues with regard to train/track crossings are not things that can be discussed here, where HH will fail to ignore a half-hearted attempt at levity over his ability to speechify endlessly with what amounts to nothing. 1 jibe & he can't even see, much less mention the topic at hand, thank god he's in a small minority.

Speculation over the retention ability of motorists that drive past HH & whether that experience influenced the motorist with any lasting result. (my suggestion for a new title for this thread)

[Bekologist]

do you mean helmet heads patented powerswerve in front of every single car that overtakes him? I bet the drivers think he's a loon.

[BroMax]

All discussion forums have some static.
If it's persistent, I suppose you could call it static cling.

[rando]

DID the guy survive? I couldn't open the link. hope he will be OK. the train was no doubt asserting it's right to the road and anger at being segregated in its own facility.

[BroMax]

No. He was killed by the train.

I was aboard a train going 79 mph when the brakes went into emergency just before impact with a pick-up. The back of the truck went tumbling by my window like an aluminum can kicked really hard, except it raised a lot more dust. The driver, in the front half, survived long enough for the ambulance to arrive. This happened just after we had passed a train going the other direction on the second track. After that train passed the crossing, the driver started to cross TWO tracks after making sure only the first of the pair was clear. Nobody aboard was hurt but there was a dent in the engine body and the train moved slowly from the scene to where a new engine could be coupled on to continue the trip.

From a friend who works on the railroad:

Ok, that reminded me of another grade crossing
story. This one happened in East St. Louis.
It's a double track mainline and the crossings
are gated. A northbound and a southbound
are pretty close to passing each other and it
so happens that there is a grade crossing in
the space between them. Approaching the crossing
is an East bound car. He decided he can swerve
around the gates and beat the southbound train.
At the same time, a westbound car is also looking
at the northbound train, and decides HE can
also swerve around the gates and beat the train.

See what's getting ready to happen?

Both cars, watching trains, fail to notice
the other fool doing the same thing, so they
bash into each other as they are dodging gates.
The trains then clobber both of the wrecked
cars! Train speeds here are fairly low, so I
don't know if anybody got killed,
or even hurt, but if there is such a thing
as poetic justice... <:^D

[Wogsterca]

No. He was killed by the train.

I was aboard a train going 79 mph when the brakes went into emergency just before impact with a pick-up. The back of the truck went tumbling by my window like an aluminum can kicked really hard, except it raised a lot more dust. The driver, in the front half, survived long enough for the ambulance to arrive. This happened just after we had passed a train going the other direction on the second track. After that train passed the crossing, the driver started to cross TWO tracks after making sure only the first of the pair was clear. Nobody aboard was hurt but there was a dent in the engine body and the train moved slowly from the scene to where a new engine could be coupled on to continue the trip.


One thing nobody ever seems to consider, is the effect on the engineer of the train, while usually unhurt physically, some of them are severely affected emotionally, in fact some after hitting a car or truck, never return to the job again. Others need weeks or months of psychiatric help to get over the incident so they can return to work. Typical I think of training, is to put on full brakes, and look away, so you don't see the collision.

Related to this, I wonder how many drivers after taking out a cyclist or ped., are left with deep emotional wounds that take many years to heal....

[meb]

There's been a lot of speculation on what happened and after this much time one would expect a story on the collision to have been located. Did anyone ever find a story to get specifics on what actually happened?