I-Like-To-Bike
01-11-07, 11:58 AM
What the heck is a road diet? Sounds crunchy.
The Breakfast of Real Champions?
The Breakfast of Real Champions?
View Full Version : Sometimes the sidewalk is better I think
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Roody
01-11-07, 12:03 PM
Diane,
I don't know what'll work for you, so I'll just share my own experiences. I use sidewalks occasionally for short lengths, when it would take longer to merge into heavy traffic than to ride slowly on the sidewalk. I don't ride more than 8 mph on a sidewalk, for my own safety--and the safety of others.
The type of street you described is exactly like the street I live on, and therefore ride on several times every day. At first I rode in the gutter and waved drivers around me. But I soon learned that it's easier for all, and safer for all, to just ride predictably in the center of the outer lane. Cars do pull into the other lane to overtake me, but they almost never get angry about it. By almost never, I mean once every several months, or one driver out of several thousand. And I have never had a "close call" on this stretch of road. After all, if a lane is too narrow to share, it's too narrow to share, and all but the most moronic drivers can understand that. :)
I don't know what'll work for you, so I'll just share my own experiences. I use sidewalks occasionally for short lengths, when it would take longer to merge into heavy traffic than to ride slowly on the sidewalk. I don't ride more than 8 mph on a sidewalk, for my own safety--and the safety of others.
The type of street you described is exactly like the street I live on, and therefore ride on several times every day. At first I rode in the gutter and waved drivers around me. But I soon learned that it's easier for all, and safer for all, to just ride predictably in the center of the outer lane. Cars do pull into the other lane to overtake me, but they almost never get angry about it. By almost never, I mean once every several months, or one driver out of several thousand. And I have never had a "close call" on this stretch of road. After all, if a lane is too narrow to share, it's too narrow to share, and all but the most moronic drivers can understand that. :)
Roody
01-11-07, 12:06 PM
But I personally believe that people who are in a state of frustration or road rage are more unpredictable than people who are pulling out of driveways.
It seems to me that the biggest danger of the sidewalk isn't people pulling out of driveways, but people pulling into driveways.
It seems to me that the biggest danger of the sidewalk isn't people pulling out of driveways, but people pulling into driveways.
sbhikes
01-11-07, 01:32 PM
Hmmm, at the risk of going off-thread (but safely within-topic)... One of the roads on my daily commute is being "dieted", going from two lanes in each direction to one lane with a center turn lane plus bike lanes, as Diane describes. There's parking on both sides, and this will remain the case. I can't make up my mind whether I'm happy about the "diet" plan, mostly because I'm scared of riding in bike lanes after a few close calls with car doors. Also, I feel more comfortable taking a lane when there's another travel lane for vehicles to pass with plenty of room.
Diane and Bekologist, are you both pro-diet when there's parking on both sides of the street? In the absence of parking, I'm all for going from four (car) lanes to three with bike lanes. I'm uneasy about bike lanes in door zones, though, and am thinking I'll stop riding this street post-diet.
This current street has no parking and would not be able to accommodate it after such a road restriping plan. Right now the lanes are too narrow for you to drive in one lane and pass a bus or garbage truck in another.
They put another busy street on such a road diet a few years ago and since parking had been allowed before the diet, the bike was not put close to the parking at all. There was enough space left over to allow a door zone for the parking lane and then the bike lane itself.
The only problem with the road now is the dang Trader Joe's. Is there a law that says all Trader Joe's must have insufficient parking and a chaotic entrance and exit into and out of the parking lot along with insufficient (or non-existent) bike parking?
Diane and Bekologist, are you both pro-diet when there's parking on both sides of the street? In the absence of parking, I'm all for going from four (car) lanes to three with bike lanes. I'm uneasy about bike lanes in door zones, though, and am thinking I'll stop riding this street post-diet.
This current street has no parking and would not be able to accommodate it after such a road restriping plan. Right now the lanes are too narrow for you to drive in one lane and pass a bus or garbage truck in another.
They put another busy street on such a road diet a few years ago and since parking had been allowed before the diet, the bike was not put close to the parking at all. There was enough space left over to allow a door zone for the parking lane and then the bike lane itself.
The only problem with the road now is the dang Trader Joe's. Is there a law that says all Trader Joe's must have insufficient parking and a chaotic entrance and exit into and out of the parking lot along with insufficient (or non-existent) bike parking?
sbhikes
01-11-07, 01:34 PM
Now I'm getting images of Bek's street gorillas getting behind the wheel and shouting, "Oooh, ooh, eeh, aaah, aaah, AAAHHH!" and banging their hands on the steering wheel. :)
What's the name of that organization, "GASS?"
"Gorillas Against Stupid Syclists" :rolleyes:
I think that's chimp language. I think gorillas only go "oooh, ooooh, ooooh" and maybe grunt or snort a bit.
What's the name of that organization, "GASS?"
"Gorillas Against Stupid Syclists" :rolleyes:
I think that's chimp language. I think gorillas only go "oooh, ooooh, ooooh" and maybe grunt or snort a bit.
ghettocruiser
01-11-07, 01:43 PM
...getting behind the wheel and shouting, "Oooh, ooh, eeh, aaah, aaah, AAAHHH!" and banging their hands on the steering wheel....
Sounds like me last time I drove downtown...
Sounds like me last time I drove downtown...
Keith99
01-11-07, 02:36 PM
It seems to me that the biggest danger of the sidewalk isn't people pulling out of driveways, but people pulling into driveways.
Could be true. But there are plenty of driveways where the pulling out is the danger. Hedges often block teh view completely right up to the sidewalk. A driver pulling out has NO CHANCE to see a cyclist or pedestrian. A decent driver will pull out slowly enough for a pedestrian to stop. A smart cyclist will realize this and adjust his speed in this or similar situations. Not all cyclists are smart.
There used to be (perhaps still is) a section of the bike path near the Orange line in Los Angeles where you end up on the sidewalk. Often no pedestrians, nice wide sidewalk, all seems good. Until you relalize that there are driveways that look like widewalkways crossing this, some right next to the buildings, meaning no sightlines at all when drivers are 'pulling out' but very good sightlines for drivers who are pulling in.
Could be true. But there are plenty of driveways where the pulling out is the danger. Hedges often block teh view completely right up to the sidewalk. A driver pulling out has NO CHANCE to see a cyclist or pedestrian. A decent driver will pull out slowly enough for a pedestrian to stop. A smart cyclist will realize this and adjust his speed in this or similar situations. Not all cyclists are smart.
There used to be (perhaps still is) a section of the bike path near the Orange line in Los Angeles where you end up on the sidewalk. Often no pedestrians, nice wide sidewalk, all seems good. Until you relalize that there are driveways that look like widewalkways crossing this, some right next to the buildings, meaning no sightlines at all when drivers are 'pulling out' but very good sightlines for drivers who are pulling in.
noisebeam
01-11-07, 02:40 PM
Could be true. But there are plenty of driveways where the pulling out is the danger.
For example can you spot the hazard(s) in this photo.
For example can you spot the hazard(s) in this photo.
Keith99
01-11-07, 02:41 PM
The only problem with the road now is the dang Trader Joe's. Is there a law that says all Trader Joe's must have insufficient parking and a chaotic entrance and exit into and out of the parking lot along with insufficient (or non-existent) bike parking?
No, there is one in Palm Springs with plenty of parking. But it does seem that in general Trader Joes will draw more customers until all available parking is taken, even when there is 4-5 times the parking usually needed for a store that size.
No, there is one in Palm Springs with plenty of parking. But it does seem that in general Trader Joes will draw more customers until all available parking is taken, even when there is 4-5 times the parking usually needed for a store that size.
sbhikes
01-11-07, 02:42 PM
Driveways with no sightlines are the norm for downtown Santa Barbara.
I-Like-To-Bike
01-11-07, 06:18 PM
I think that's chimp language. I think gorillas only go "oooh, ooooh, ooooh" and maybe grunt or snort a bit.
I think the actual language has been misquoted. It is actually, "Ooo eee ,ooo ah ah ting tang Walla walla, bing bang" and it wasn't a Gorilla or chimp, it was a Witch Doctor.
I think the actual language has been misquoted. It is actually, "Ooo eee ,ooo ah ah ting tang Walla walla, bing bang" and it wasn't a Gorilla or chimp, it was a Witch Doctor.
jwc
01-11-07, 07:56 PM
The only surfaces worse than the potholed roads in my area, are the cracked and uneven sidewalks. I tried to take a "shortcut" down a sidewalk from my bank to a store. That was the last time I tired that short cut.
sgtsmile
01-11-07, 08:41 PM
For example can you spot the hazard(s) in this photo.
Most drivers are in each others blindspots.
The overwhelming majority are tailgating (if doing about 50 60 kmph, they are max 1second apart).
This lack of space results in poor sight lines for drivers as they are forced to focus sharply on the brake lights of the car in front.
There is a bush with little white flowers, what car, ped, bike is coming out? no idea and is anyone responding?
If you are a cyclist, the road edge is full of crap, making the edge of the road less desirable (yah yah, spare me the rhetoric).
There is a center turning lane, which while handy, can create problems when traffic in both directions want opposite turn lanes.
There are palm trees. George of the jungle might dive out of one......
Most drivers are in each others blindspots.
The overwhelming majority are tailgating (if doing about 50 60 kmph, they are max 1second apart).
This lack of space results in poor sight lines for drivers as they are forced to focus sharply on the brake lights of the car in front.
There is a bush with little white flowers, what car, ped, bike is coming out? no idea and is anyone responding?
If you are a cyclist, the road edge is full of crap, making the edge of the road less desirable (yah yah, spare me the rhetoric).
There is a center turning lane, which while handy, can create problems when traffic in both directions want opposite turn lanes.
There are palm trees. George of the jungle might dive out of one......
SEAcarlessTTLE
01-12-07, 12:03 AM
which road are you speaking about, seacarless?
Go check out the diet past the MacMenamins' in queen anne for an example of a well buffered, quality road diet.
Rainier Ave S past the Seward Park cut S to Renton is also a pretty good road diet, but older. the macmenamins shows well buffered velotransit lanes and intersection accomodations for different volumes of egress.
quality road diets are much nicer for cyclists stomachs than junk food road diets.
Yeah, since we also walk a lot, I'm very much in favor of Seattle's road diet plans, in general. If the bike lanes end up wide enough, I'll happily ride them. I worry they'll end up more like Dexter or Phinney, though...the notable examples that give bike lanes a bad rep. ...and my assumption is that people just won't give up street parking on roads like Stone Way N, which is the one I was referring to.
Which street by McMenamin's is it? I don't get down there often but will keep my eye out next time do. On Rainier Ave S, I assume you're talking about the stretch popularly included as part of the loop route around Lake Washington...yeah, I like that setup a lot, even where the bike lanes go past parking, since only the sloppiest of parking jobs lead to dooring danger. That's the kind of spacing I like. The debris is the only minor annoyance, and I don't worry about flats the way I worry about being doored or bumped by a vehicle!
Go check out the diet past the MacMenamins' in queen anne for an example of a well buffered, quality road diet.
Rainier Ave S past the Seward Park cut S to Renton is also a pretty good road diet, but older. the macmenamins shows well buffered velotransit lanes and intersection accomodations for different volumes of egress.
quality road diets are much nicer for cyclists stomachs than junk food road diets.
Yeah, since we also walk a lot, I'm very much in favor of Seattle's road diet plans, in general. If the bike lanes end up wide enough, I'll happily ride them. I worry they'll end up more like Dexter or Phinney, though...the notable examples that give bike lanes a bad rep. ...and my assumption is that people just won't give up street parking on roads like Stone Way N, which is the one I was referring to.
Which street by McMenamin's is it? I don't get down there often but will keep my eye out next time do. On Rainier Ave S, I assume you're talking about the stretch popularly included as part of the loop route around Lake Washington...yeah, I like that setup a lot, even where the bike lanes go past parking, since only the sloppiest of parking jobs lead to dooring danger. That's the kind of spacing I like. The debris is the only minor annoyance, and I don't worry about flats the way I worry about being doored or bumped by a vehicle!
SEAcarlessTTLE
01-12-07, 12:17 AM
This current street has no parking and would not be able to accommodate it after such a road restriping plan. Right now the lanes are too narrow for you to drive in one lane and pass a bus or garbage truck in another.
Wow...that's pretty tight. That's the kind of road where a Seattle bus driver would just say, heck with it, and straddle the coach over the dashed white! (: Well, good news...sounds like you can expect some good bike lanes there after restriping.
Wow...that's pretty tight. That's the kind of road where a Seattle bus driver would just say, heck with it, and straddle the coach over the dashed white! (: Well, good news...sounds like you can expect some good bike lanes there after restriping.
Wogsterca
01-12-07, 05:26 AM
For example can you spot the hazard(s) in this photo.
There are way to many hazards to count, you have a driveway ever 20m or so, those are really intersections, and those are hazards, most (if not all, depends on how fast traffic moves on the road) of the cars are following to close, bushes and other items are too close to the road to allow proper sight lines, the shoulder is too narrow, the road edge has old possibly dangerous paving, the sidewalk is too narrow.
I don't really get sidewalk planners, if your going to use a hard surface from curb to sidewalk, why make it a 2' sidewalk and a 4' brick space between, why not make it a 6' sidewalk. I can see this design in northern climates where you need snowbank space, but in a southern climate, why?
There are way to many hazards to count, you have a driveway ever 20m or so, those are really intersections, and those are hazards, most (if not all, depends on how fast traffic moves on the road) of the cars are following to close, bushes and other items are too close to the road to allow proper sight lines, the shoulder is too narrow, the road edge has old possibly dangerous paving, the sidewalk is too narrow.
I don't really get sidewalk planners, if your going to use a hard surface from curb to sidewalk, why make it a 2' sidewalk and a 4' brick space between, why not make it a 6' sidewalk. I can see this design in northern climates where you need snowbank space, but in a southern climate, why?
LittleBigMan
01-12-07, 07:19 AM
I think that's chimp language. I think gorillas only go "oooh, ooooh, ooooh" and maybe grunt or snort a bit.
I don't know, we have a couple of rather sophisticated gorillas here on BF. One is a moderator with a taste for passionfruit and pasta. :)
I don't know, we have a couple of rather sophisticated gorillas here on BF. One is a moderator with a taste for passionfruit and pasta. :)
noisebeam
01-12-07, 07:55 AM
There are way to many hazards to count,
I think you and sgtsmile got most of them.
I was actually asking about the sidewalk hazards only ;)
The main hazard on the sidewalk I was thinking of it the 'driveway' immediately after the first palm trunk, before the bush with white flowers - its actually a heavily used alley - (service trucks inc. phone, cable, garbage, recycling use it as do residents to haul larger stuff to their houses and quite often 'dumpster divers' too - many folks leave old furniture, etc. in the alleys and the are scoured daily) A rider on the sidewalk is most likely to be far to the right, just after going up the curb ramp and trucks don't stop leaving the alley. I was nearly killed by one while walking down this very sidewalk casually talking to a friend. This is not the only one, the occur regularly.
The road is where I always ride, center biased as the lane is to narrow to share, not to mention the terrible condition of the curb. Its a 40mph posted, ~45mph traveled.
Al
I think you and sgtsmile got most of them.
I was actually asking about the sidewalk hazards only ;)
The main hazard on the sidewalk I was thinking of it the 'driveway' immediately after the first palm trunk, before the bush with white flowers - its actually a heavily used alley - (service trucks inc. phone, cable, garbage, recycling use it as do residents to haul larger stuff to their houses and quite often 'dumpster divers' too - many folks leave old furniture, etc. in the alleys and the are scoured daily) A rider on the sidewalk is most likely to be far to the right, just after going up the curb ramp and trucks don't stop leaving the alley. I was nearly killed by one while walking down this very sidewalk casually talking to a friend. This is not the only one, the occur regularly.
The road is where I always ride, center biased as the lane is to narrow to share, not to mention the terrible condition of the curb. Its a 40mph posted, ~45mph traveled.
Al
LittleBigMan
01-12-07, 10:09 AM
I think that's chimp language. I think gorillas only go "oooh, ooooh, ooooh" and maybe grunt or snort a bit.
A friend of mine actually got "beat up" by a monkey (don't know what kind) in Vietnam. The monkey was standing on the truck and the Sergeant told him to get the monkey off.
"How am I going to do that?" my friend asked, being new to this kind of thing.
"Just give him a good slap and knock him off." The Sergeant didn't tell him everyone knew this monkey, and all you had to do was reach out your arms and he would reach back and climb down. So my friend obeyed and slapped that monkey hard.
That monkey jumped into his chest feet first, grabbing his shirt with his fist-like feet, knocking my friend flat on his back. This put the monkey squarely on his chest, standing. The monkey held him with his feet and used his arms to pound on my friend with his fists. My friend kept feeling around for his rifle, he was going to shoot the monkey, but the monkey didn't give him a moment's rest. He started screaming for his buddies to get the monkey off. They told him to just raise his hands above his head, like he was surrendering. He did, and the monkey stopped beating him (eventually.)
Having soundly beaten my friend, the monkey stepped off his chest, turned, kicked dirt on him, and walked away.
A friend of mine actually got "beat up" by a monkey (don't know what kind) in Vietnam. The monkey was standing on the truck and the Sergeant told him to get the monkey off.
"How am I going to do that?" my friend asked, being new to this kind of thing.
"Just give him a good slap and knock him off." The Sergeant didn't tell him everyone knew this monkey, and all you had to do was reach out your arms and he would reach back and climb down. So my friend obeyed and slapped that monkey hard.
That monkey jumped into his chest feet first, grabbing his shirt with his fist-like feet, knocking my friend flat on his back. This put the monkey squarely on his chest, standing. The monkey held him with his feet and used his arms to pound on my friend with his fists. My friend kept feeling around for his rifle, he was going to shoot the monkey, but the monkey didn't give him a moment's rest. He started screaming for his buddies to get the monkey off. They told him to just raise his hands above his head, like he was surrendering. He did, and the monkey stopped beating him (eventually.)
Having soundly beaten my friend, the monkey stepped off his chest, turned, kicked dirt on him, and walked away.
I-Like-To-Bike
01-12-07, 10:12 AM
A friend of mine actually got "beat up" by a monkey (don't know what kind) in Vietnam.
Must have been The Signifyin' Monkey!
http://members.tripod.com/~mogley/monkey.html
Must have been The Signifyin' Monkey!
http://members.tripod.com/~mogley/monkey.html
LittleBigMan
01-12-07, 10:26 AM
Must have been The Signifyin' Monkey!
http://members.tripod.com/~mogley/monkey.html
Hey, I just won a free laptop! :D
http://members.tripod.com/~mogley/monkey.html
Hey, I just won a free laptop! :D
sbhikes
01-12-07, 10:57 AM
I don't know, we have a couple of rather sophisticated gorillas here on BF. One is a moderator with a taste for passionfruit and pasta. :)
Are you sure he isn't an umbrella cockatoo in disguise?
Are you sure he isn't an umbrella cockatoo in disguise?
LittleBigMan
01-12-07, 12:23 PM
Are you sure he isn't an umbrella cockatoo in disguise?
I recently got a Cockatiel. She is somewhat possessive of me, even though I got her for my wife. :) When I get up in the morning and put her on my shoulder, I go into the bathroom and take a look at my mug. There she is perched with her crest pointing up like Elvis, and me with my hair likewise, sticking straight up. A cute pair. :)
I recently got a Cockatiel. She is somewhat possessive of me, even though I got her for my wife. :) When I get up in the morning and put her on my shoulder, I go into the bathroom and take a look at my mug. There she is perched with her crest pointing up like Elvis, and me with my hair likewise, sticking straight up. A cute pair. :)
sbhikes
01-12-07, 12:53 PM
Cockatiels are great birds. Little cockatoos. Did you know they are more closely related to the black cockatoos than the white ones?
Our cockatoo has a fondness for pasta and passion fruit, so much so that we planted a passion fruit vine in the back yard. Can you say, "feed me Seymore?" That vine is a monster.
Anyway, motor vehicle traffic is a public menace if you ask me. It's destroying civility at the same time it destroys public safety and the global environment. We should do everything possible to make it easier for the average person to choose cycling. If enough people are cycling, the intersections will take care of themselves.
Our cockatoo has a fondness for pasta and passion fruit, so much so that we planted a passion fruit vine in the back yard. Can you say, "feed me Seymore?" That vine is a monster.
Anyway, motor vehicle traffic is a public menace if you ask me. It's destroying civility at the same time it destroys public safety and the global environment. We should do everything possible to make it easier for the average person to choose cycling. If enough people are cycling, the intersections will take care of themselves.
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