I decided to go out for breakfast this morning so I headed to my favorite coffee place on my upright Trek mountain bike. A busy street with two narrow lanes in each direction is part of the ride, and for 2 blocks I think it's virtually unrideable on a bike. I normally use the sidewalk for one block then, since the coffee place is on the left side, cross and use the other sidewalk for the rest of the way. But today I thought I would just stay in the lane and be VC(tm).
So I first stopped at a safe spot and waited for traffic to clear before proceeding down the center of the lane. Halfway down the block a woman came up behind me in her car. I needed to change lanes into the left lane pretty soon, but I saw in my mirror she was going to change lanes to pass me. So as she did that I signaled to move left so anybody behind her wouldn't also change lanes to pass me. But that only made her get mad at me, slamming her hands on the steering wheel and cussing me out. She obviously thought that me signaling meant I was going to immediately move over and cause her to collide with me.
After all that, I think my sidewalk method works better. Too many unpredictable cyclists out there make any attempts to ride a bicycle according to the rules of the road too confusing for drivers to understand. I think I'll save center lane positioning for Sunday morning.
As an aside, I really think that street would work a lot better if they removed the left lanes and put in a center lane for left turns and bike lanes on the edges. I don't know of any cyclists who ride those two blocks in the lane except weekend club riders.
The BikeForums Team
-adv-
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content here.
It sounds like that for you the sidewalk may be better. Good for you.
-D
recursive
Too many unpredictable cyclists out there make any attempts to ride a bicycle according to the rules of the road too confusing for drivers to understand.
Attempt to understand too many for words unpredictable but difficult.
sgtsmile
Quote:
Too many unpredictable cyclists out there make any attempts to ride a bicycle according to the rules of the road too confusing for drivers to understand.
Attempt to understand too many for words unpredictable but difficult.
ahem....
HUH?!?!?!
galen_52657
So one person got mad, so what? Who gives a crap? People get mad at me when I am in a car only doing 5 MPH over the limit and they want to go 15 MPH over the limit. So what? Who cares? Some people get mad when they have to wait to get around me when I am riding my bike. So what. Who cares. No mater what vehicle you are in/on or where you are you can bet that unless you are moving at 20-25 MPH over the speed limit, somebody is going to end up behind you who thinks you are moving too slowly. SO FRIGGIN WHAT????? WHO GIVES A RAT'S ARSE????? Are you going to live your life worrying about getting out of the way of every speeder on the road??? If so, you might as well stay home.
Having spent enough time reading your posts Diane I have come to the conclusion that you possess a meek and submissive personality and are overly concerned with what other people do and think.
My suggestion is work on your fitness, your traffic skills, your bike-handling skills and try to show some backbone. Ditching the tricycle might help too.
sgtsmile
Diane:)
Does this road have one lane each way, with turn lanes in the middle?
Your clear communication to the vehicles behind your passer makes sense; next time, however, perhaps wait until the car passing you passes? It might help avoid conflict with that driver (although it might not since they were using a turn lane as a passing lane). It is hard to (accurately) comment on this since I am unclear how close behind the silly person passing you in the turn lane the next car was.
sgtsmile
So one person got mad, so what? Who gives a crap? People get mad at me when I am in a car only doing 5 MPH over the limit and they want to go 15 MPH over the limit. So what? Who cares? Some people get mad when they have to wait to get around me when I am riding my bike. So what. Who cares. No mater what vehicle you are in/on or where you are you can bet that unless you are moving at 20-25 MPH over the speed limit, somebody is going to end up behind you who thinks you are moving too slowly. SO FRIGGIN WHAT????? WHO GIVES A RAT'S ARSE????? Are you going to live your life worrying about getting out of the way of every speeder on the road??? If so, you might as well stay home.
Having spent enough time reading your posts Diane I have come to the conclusion that you possess a meek and submissive personality and are overly concerned with what other people do and think.
My suggestion is work on your fitness, your traffic skills, your bike-handling skills and try to show some backbone. Ditching the tricycle might help too.
Are you feeling somewhat hostile today?
AlmostTrick
I can empathize with the desire to avoid conflict, but I think I can handle/put up with almost any street if it were only for two blocks.
San Rensho
I use the sidewalk occasionally. On my commute, the last thing I have to do isturn left into an alley that is halfway down the block. Many times I will turn left at the intersection before my turn off and use the cut in the sidewalk and go the last half block on the sidewalk. Then I revert to pedestrian mode, going as slow as peds, not passing, etc. So I guess I'm PC on two counts, "politically correct" and "pedestrian cyclist."
noisebeam
but I saw in my mirror she was going to change lanes to pass me. So as she did that I signaled to move left so anybody behind her wouldn't also change lanes to pass me. But that only made her get mad at me, slamming her hands on the steering wheel and cussing me out. She obviously thought that me signaling meant I was going to immediately move over and cause her to collide with me.
If I am wanting to merge left and there are cars also passing I clearly communicate my intentions and my desires. This means I may use that outstretched left turn arm (intention) to wave on a driver who I would prefer (desire) to pass me before I merge left. I look at them and give a little wave with the hand that it on the end of the arm. Hostility is prevented as the driver apreciates the gesture.
Commuications needs to be clear, specific and directed. If it was a 'you thought/she thought' that lead to ambiguity, which generally leads to stress, which can lead to hostility, then think of how you can improve as you are not going to be able to make everyone else improve.
Al
galen_52657
Are you feeling somewhat hostile today?
Not at all, just tired of the whining and hand-ringing.
recursive
SO FRIGGIN WHAT????? WHO GIVES A RAT'S ARSE?????
Not me! Angry people in traffic amuse me.
LCI_Brian
So I first stopped at a safe spot and waited for traffic to clear before proceeding down the center of the lane. Halfway down the block a woman came up behind me in her car. I needed to change lanes into the left lane pretty soon, but I saw in my mirror she was going to change lanes to pass me. So as she did that I signaled to move left so anybody behind her wouldn't also change lanes to pass me. But that only made her get mad at me, slamming her hands on the steering wheel and cussing me out. She obviously thought that me signaling meant I was going to immediately move over and cause her to collide with me.
Sounds to me that the timing of the signal may have been slightly early. That's the kind of thing that improves with experience.
joejack951
Next time, try just taking the center of the left lane if it's only for a block. People can pass on the right just like they would any other vehicle using the left lane for an upcoming left turn. I often do this on my commute home when I'm close to where I'd normally change lanes to make my left but not quite there yet but have a lot of traffic coming from behind. If there's enough traffic, I've used the left lane for the 0.6 miles that I'm on that road just to avoid a possibly annoying lane change negotiation.
Helmet Head
I decided to go out for breakfast this morning so I headed to my favorite coffee place on my upright Trek mountain bike. A busy street with two narrow lanes in each direction is part of the ride, and for 2 blocks I think it's virtually unrideable on a bike. I normally use the sidewalk for one block then, since the coffee place is on the left side, cross and use the other sidewalk for the rest of the way. But today I thought I would just stay in the lane and be VC(tm).
So I first stopped at a safe spot and waited for traffic to clear before proceeding down the center of the lane. Halfway down the block a woman came up behind me in her car. I needed to change lanes into the left lane pretty soon, but I saw in my mirror she was going to change lanes to pass me. So as she did that I signaled to move left so anybody behind her wouldn't also change lanes to pass me. But that only made her get mad at me, slamming her hands on the steering wheel and cussing me out. She obviously thought that me signaling meant I was going to immediately move over and cause her to collide with me.
After all that, I think my sidewalk method works better. Too many unpredictable cyclists out there make any attempts to ride a bicycle according to the rules of the road too confusing for drivers to understand. I think I'll save center lane positioning for Sunday morning.
As an aside, I really think that street would work a lot better if they removed the left lanes and put in a center lane for left turns and bike lanes on the edges. I don't know of any cyclists who ride those two blocks in the lane except weekend club riders.
I commend you for giving something new a try. But don't expect a wonderful experience right away. There are bound to be glitches and setbacks.
It sounds like the driver just changed lanes to pass you when you signalled that you were going to move into her lane in front of her. Whether she was alarmed or just wanted to warn you with the honk is unclear and irrelevant. But it's certainly understandable.
With a bit more time and experience you'll develop a better "feel" for what your behavior as a cyclist communicates to the drivers around you.
noisebeam
Too many unpredictable cyclists out there make any attempts to ride a bicycle according to the rules of the road too confusing for drivers to understand.
By riding on the sidewalk you reenforce in motorists minds that is where cyclists should be - just adding to the very unpreditability you lament. Why not instead be a role model for predictable?
As an aside, I really think that street would work a lot better if they removed the left lanes and put in a center lane for left turns and bike lanes on the edges.
How would this solve your left turn problem? You would still need to merge out of the bike lane and across the primary lane to get to the center turn lane. In my experience in my locality I find it harder to negotiate a merge from a bike lane than from center of outer lane. Motorists don't respond as consitently to cyclists signalling desires to leave a bike lane. If you stuck your arm out as same motorist was just about to pass (slightly different scenario I understand), she may be just as likely to honk thinking you were going to suddenly turn in front of her. But more likely she wouldn't honk at all, as you would not be a concern of hers. Is that really better?
Al
ghettocruiser
If I felt the sidewalk was safer, I might well use it. And sometimes I do.
Noisebeam, I think the "role-model" thing is a bit too much of "advocacy agenda" over "personal safety", although I admit I think this way myself sometimes when I take lanes on fast roads. But I have no reason to suspect motists put much thought into this, or anything else they see us doing.
noisebeam
Noisebeam, I think the "role-model" thing is a bit too much of "advocacy agenda" over "personal safety", although I admit I think this way myself sometimes when I take lanes on fast roads. But I have no reason to suspect motists put much thought into this, or anything else they see us doing.
Sure, but if one is going to complain about unpredictable cyclists causing driver confusion, one should not also complain in same post about drivers not being used to cyclist riding vehicularly with conclusion that solution is to ride on sidewalk.
I also did not take away that Diane's relucance had to do with safety, but more to do with wanting to avoid interaction with motorists who may be displaying emotions of anoyance at her.
Al
drmain
I ONLY ride on the sidewalks because it is much safer. I think it's crazy to ride next to, or around 1 ton vehicles with absolutely nothing to protect you.
sbhikes
Diane:)
Does this road have one lane each way, with turn lanes in the middle?
Your clear communication to the vehicles behind your passer makes sense; next time, however, perhaps wait until the car passing you passes? It might help avoid conflict with that driver (although it might not since they were using a turn lane as a passing lane). It is hard to (accurately) comment on this since I am unclear how close behind the silly person passing you in the turn lane the next car was.
No turn lanes in the middle. I think that would make the street better to have them.
derath
I ONLY ride on the sidewalks because it is much safer. I think it's crazy to ride next to, or around 1 ton vehicles with absolutely nothing to protect you.
Maybe.. depending on how you ride. For me riding on the sidewalk is much more dangerous.
-D
genec
I use the sidewalk occasionally. On my commute, the last thing I have to do isturn left into an alley that is halfway down the block. Many times I will turn left at the intersection before my turn off and use the cut in the sidewalk and go the last half block on the sidewalk. Then I revert to pedestrian mode, going as slow as peds, not passing, etc. So I guess I'm PC on two counts, "politically correct" and "pedestrian cyclist."
I do this sometimes too... for reasons like you state... when for instance cycling down to a "proper" left turn to make a U turn... when it may be just a short 1/2 block down to a different corner from which I can get on the street easily and make a turn without light control.
Sometimes it is just not worth the hassle to "act like the driver of a vehicle." But that choice is not made because the sidewalk is safer, but simply because that short jaunt is easier (less complicated and probably a lot shorter).
sbhikes
By riding on the sidewalk you reenforce in motorists minds that is where cyclists should be - just adding to the very unpreditability you lament. Why not instead be a role model for predictable?
How would this solve your left turn problem? You would still need to merge out of the bike lane and across the primary lane to get to the center turn lane. In my experience in my locality I find it harder to negotiate a merge from a bike lane than from center of outer lane. Motorists don't respond as consitently to cyclists signalling desires to leave a bike lane. If you stuck your arm out as same motorist was just about to pass (slightly different scenario I understand), she may be just as likely to honk thinking you were going to suddenly turn in front of her. But more likely she wouldn't honk at all, as you would not be a concern of hers. Is that really better?
Al
I think it would be better because right now what happens is anybody who wants to turn left into a driveway or cross street has to hold up traffic to do it waiting in the left lane. If they got rid of the left lanes and made it a center suicide lane instead (with left turn lanes at cross streets) and used the extra for a bike lane on each side, then the bikes would use the street instead of the sidewalk and the cars would expect them to. And as soon as I would merge into the lane to make my left turn, nobody would be able to pass me, not in the through lane and not in the middle lane. They'd have to wait.
noisebeam
There is nothing wrong with sidewalk riding. However just as with road riding one must be aware of the potential hazards, the risks and how to proactively deal with them. Sidewalk riders (not you BF sidewalk riders) often have accidents because they think its safer and haven't put much thought into the hazards. People who choose to ride on the road often (but not always) think about it a bit harder as is is perceived as more dangerous.
Al
sbhikes
And I agree the sidewalk is dangerous, especially this particular stretch of road is a dangerous sidewalk. I ride it in a hightened state of alert. But I personally believe that people who are in a state of frustration or road rage are more unpredictable than people who are pulling out of driveways.
sggoodri
On the sidewalk, turning left isn't even an option; one must stop and cross the street with both directions of traffic clear at once.
When preparing to merge left into traffic where a large gap is not available, I turn back and look in the direction of the driver with whom I intend to communicate. Then I make my signal while still looking at them. The turn makes drivers more confident that I am paying attention and clues them into how far ahead I am planning my maneuver. Usually the driver I am looking at lets me in; if not I repeat with the next driver behind them. Naturally I must keep turning my head to look ahead as well.
I find the frustration of the occasional misinterpreted signal to be much less than the frustration of limited maneuverability, close-calls and excess delays on sidewalks.
The look-with-signal process is easier on an upright bike than on a recumbent, but despite this I have recumbent-envy any time I see one. I wish I had more room in my crowded garage.
sggoodri
I think it would be better because right now what happens is anybody who wants to turn left into a driveway or cross street has to hold up traffic to do it waiting in the left lane. If they got rid of the left lanes and made it a center suicide lane instead (with left turn lanes at cross streets) and used the extra for a bike lane on each side, then the bikes would use the street instead of the sidewalk and the cars would expect them to. And as soon as I would merge into the lane to make my left turn, nobody would be able to pass me, not in the through lane and not in the middle lane. They'd have to wait.
I too prefer three-lane configurations like this to the four lanes without turn lanes. I especially hate waiting in a through lane to turn left.
However, I still have to be very careful with merging left into the center lane on the three lane road outside my neighborhood. Drivers partially use the center lane to pass me because the through lanes are a bit narrow. As I signal to merge left into the center suicide lane, it's surprising how many drivers look at my signal and move into the center lane to try to pass me anyway.
Worse still, there is significant turning traffic coming the other way intending to turn left into a street offset from my own destination, such that they use the same section of center lane as I will. When I merge into the center lane, I first merge just to the lane line, and make sure none of the oncoming traffic is about to enter the center lane before I move any farther into it. Of course, I also make one last check backward to make sure no yahoo decides to pass me on the left at that last moment.
Oh, and did I mention there is a series of potholes along the pavement seam between the through lane and the center lane, right where I would prefer to enter the center lane?
The other day I did everything right, and was almost in the center of the center lane when suddenly a right-turning driver coming from the street I intended to turn into swings wide into the center lane right in front of me, preparing to turn left into the other, offset street just behind me.
By contrast, though, walking through that area is much more difficult, since it takes a long wait for adequate traffic gaps to open up in both directions at the same time.
I'd greatly prefer if they hadn't built these streets offset like that, and instead aligned them. I'd also prefer to have wider through lanes along with raised center medians to control traffic better at the intersections.
joejack951
And I agree the sidewalk is dangerous, especially this particular stretch of road is a dangerous sidewalk. I ride it in a hightened state of alert. But I personally believe that people who are in a state of frustration or road rage are more unpredictable than people who are pulling out of driveways.
I think a driver who is not aware of my presence is much more likely to make an unpredictable move than a driver who is angry at me and has focussed much attention at me. On the sidewalk, you need to ride like no one knows you're there. This would be incredibly frustrating on most roads near me with sidewalks due to the number of driveways, not to mention all the pedestrians using them.
joejack951
I ONLY ride on the sidewalks because it is much safer. I think it's crazy to ride next to, or around 1 ton vehicles with absolutely nothing to protect you.
I'm sure someone will take the bait hard, but please review this guy's prior posts before responding to yet another post saying the same thing.
Keith99
I think a driver who is not aware of my presence is much more likely to make an unpredictable move than a driver who is angry at me and has focussed much attention at me. On the sidewalk, you need to ride like no one knows you're there. This would be incredibly frustrating on most roads near me with sidewalks due to the number of driveways, not to mention all the pedestrians using them.
But Diane is talking about using the sidewalk for about 2 blocks. What I have found when riding the sidewalk is involved is that you start out riding at about a brisk walk, being very careful and then as time goes on you pick up speed and lose concentration (or if you will constructive paranoia). In 2 blocks this does not have much time to happen and by the end you are still riding an a manner that is withing the same speed range as pedestrians. E.g you are still fairly safe.
Bekologist
diane, it certainly sounds like putting the street on a 'road diet' by removing a lane, adding a center turn lane and a high quality velotransit lane would have positive, predictable and likely effects to the benefit of ALL roadway users.
sounds like something to bring up at the local advocacy meeting.
road diets will improve and facilitate auto flow, increase physical roadway space for bicyclists, allow easier auto or bike turns off the roadway with less conflict for other road users, and make the road easier and safer for pedestrians to negotiate.
Road diets work to reclaim public space from the realm of the auto and return it to ALL. Pedestrians, cars, bikes, roller bladers, gorillas playing basketball ;) or driving tractors.
SEAcarlessTTLE
diane, it certainly sounds like putting the street on a 'road diet' by removing a lane, adding a center turn lane and a high quality velotransit lane would have positive, predictable and likely effects to the benefit of ALL roadway users.
sounds like something to bring up at the local advocacy meeting.
road diets will improve and facilitate auto flow, increase physical roadway space for bicyclists, allow easier auto or bike turns off the roadway with less conflict for other road users, and make the road easier and safer for pedestrians to negotiate.
Road diets work to reclaim public space from the realm of the auto and return it to ALL. Pedestrians, cars, bikes, roller bladers, gorillas playing basketball ;) or driving tractors.
Hmmm, at the risk of going off-thread (but safely within-topic)... One of the roads on my daily commute is being "dieted", going from two lanes in each direction to one lane with a center turn lane plus bike lanes, as Diane describes. There's parking on both sides, and this will remain the case. I can't make up my mind whether I'm happy about the "diet" plan, mostly because I'm scared of riding in bike lanes after a few close calls with car doors. Also, I feel more comfortable taking a lane when there's another travel lane for vehicles to pass with plenty of room.
Diane and Bekologist, are you both pro-diet when there's parking on both sides of the street? In the absence of parking, I'm all for going from four (car) lanes to three with bike lanes. I'm uneasy about bike lanes in door zones, though, and am thinking I'll stop riding this street post-diet.
LCI_Brian
I'm not a big fan of the four to three lane road diets, if the result is that I have to ride out in the lane to avoid the parked car doors, as the only way traffic could pass me is to (illegally) use the center turn lane.
Bekologist
that's not the de facto result with high quality road diets.
Bekologist
which road are you speaking about, seacarless?
Go check out the diet past the MacMenamins' in queen anne for an example of a well buffered, quality road diet.
Rainier Ave S past the Seward Park cut S to Renton is also a pretty good road diet, but older. the macmenamins shows well buffered velotransit lanes and intersection accomodations for different volumes of egress.
quality road diets are much nicer for cyclists stomachs than junk food road diets.
sggoodri
I'm not a big fan of the four to three lane road diets, if the result is that I have to ride out in the lane to avoid the parked car doors, as the only way traffic could pass me is to (illegally) use the center turn lane.
I prefer those "road diet" projects without on-street parking, or if there is on-street parking, no markings for bike lanes or individual stalls. If there is on-street parking, I prefer a continuous center turn lane rather than medians that would squeeze motorists into a narrow lane with cyclists. And of course I greatly prefer a wide through lane to a narrow through lane.
Before my company relocated, my bike commute included three miles each way of 3-lane suburban road with narrow outside lanes and a 45 mph speed limit. Practically all of the cars used at least part of the center lane to pass me during my commutes. Only where there was turning traffic in the center lane was there any reason for concern. On an urban street with lots of turning traffic this would be more of an issue, but traffic would be slower.
slowandsteady
Not at all, just tired of the whining and hand-ringing.
Hand wringing causes chapped skin. Just say no.
noisebeam
Before my company relocated, my bike commute included three miles each way of 3-lane suburban road with narrow outside lanes and a 45 mph speed limit. Practically all of the cars used at least part of the center lane to pass me during my commutes. Only where there was turning traffic in the center lane was there any reason for concern. On an urban street with lots of turning traffic this would be more of an issue, but traffic would be slower.
Not that you are saying it isn't, but in AZ using the center lane to pass might be legal (see #2), if the lane is not designated for a left turn or left turns are not possible from the section of lane being used for passing:
"28-729. Driving on roadways laned for traffic
If a roadway is divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules in addition to all others consistent with this section apply:
1. A person shall drive a vehicle as nearly as practicable entirely within a single lane and shall not move the vehicle from that lane until the driver has first ascertained that the movement can be made with safety.
2. On a roadway that is divided into three lanes, a person shall not drive a vehicle in the center lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the center lane is clear of traffic within a safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn or where the center lane is at the time allocated exclusively to traffic moving in the direction the vehicle is proceeding and is signposted to give notice of the allocation.
3. Official signs may be erected directing slow-moving traffic to use a designated lane or designating those lanes to be used by traffic moving in a particular direction regardless of the center of the roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every sign. "
and
28-751. Required position and method of turning
[1-3 deleted]
4. Two-way left turn lanes. If a special lane for making left turns by drivers proceeding in opposite directions has been indicated by official traffic control devices:
(a) A driver shall not make a left turn from any other lane.
(b) A driver shall not drive a vehicle in the lane except if preparing for or making a left turn from or into the roadway or if preparing for or making a u-turn if otherwise permitted by law."
I-Like-To-Bike
Not at all, just tired of the whining and hand-ringing.
Please remember this before you post another unsolicited bike lane accident blurb.
Helmet Head
Not that you are saying it isn't, but in AZ using the center lane to pass might be legal (see #2), if the lane is not designated for a left turn or left turns are not possible from the section of lane being used for passing:
"28-729. Driving on roadways laned for traffic
If a roadway is divided into two or more clearly marked lanes for traffic, the following rules in addition to all others consistent with this section apply:
1. A person shall drive a vehicle as nearly as practicable entirely within a single lane and shall not move the vehicle from that lane until the driver has first ascertained that the movement can be made with safety.
2. On a roadway that is divided into three lanes, a person shall not drive a vehicle in the center lane except when overtaking and passing another vehicle where the roadway is clearly visible and the center lane is clear of traffic within a safe distance, or in preparation for a left turn or where the center lane is at the time allocated exclusively to traffic moving in the direction the vehicle is proceeding and is signposted to give notice of the allocation.
3. Official signs may be erected directing slow-moving traffic to use a designated lane or designating those lanes to be used by traffic moving in a particular direction regardless of the center of the roadway, and drivers of vehicles shall obey the directions of every sign. "
and
28-751. Required position and method of turning
[1-3 deleted]
4. Two-way left turn lanes. If a special lane for making left turns by drivers proceeding in opposite directions has been indicated by official traffic control devices:
(a) A driver shall not make a left turn from any other lane.
(b) A driver shall not drive a vehicle in the lane except if preparing for or making a left turn from or into the roadway or if preparing for or making a u-turn if otherwise permitted by law."
That's not the kind of "center lane" we're talking about. That's a road with 1 lane in one direction, and 2 lanes in the other.
noisebeam
That's not the kind of "center lane" we're talking about. That's a road with 1 lane in one direction, and 2 lanes in the other.
Can you explain to help me understand the interpretation better. I think I get it, but its not totally obvious to me. It getting more clear to me that 729#2 applies to two lanes one way, one lane the other, but 751#4 applies to a shared turn lane which can never be used for passing
(by the way that was why I used the word 'might' in my post, I knew folks here would help me understand - I have always heard its illegal to drive/pass in center lane and I don't, but couldn't wrap my head around the law)
Al
Bekologist
and none of what has been talked about in the last 8 posts implicates high quality road diets and their multifarious quality improvements to the road for all road users.
High quality road diets benefit all users of the public right of way including pedestrians at crossings, turning vehicles, bicycles and other non motorized users of the roads.
High quality road diets require NO crossing of the center line by vehicles overtaking bikes; high quality road diets don't place bikes in the door zone.
Dianes' thoughts about traffic calming using a road diet is spot on the money.
noisebeam
The only thing I see as beneficial for all road users is having a designated turn lane. As traffic volumes increase this helps with flow. But I'd rather have two thru lanes in each direction than a narrow lane and a bike lane for the same volume of traffic, with both of these scenarios improved with a designated turn lane.
Al
sggoodri
Not that you are saying it isn't, but in AZ using the center lane to pass might be legal (see #2), if the lane is not designated for a left turn or left turns are not possible from the section of lane being used for passing:
I'm pretty sure it's illegal to use the center lane to pass cyclists here in NC, just like it's considered illegal by most to cross a double yellow line. However, everybody, and I do mean everybody, does it here without a second thought.
My point is that a road design that physically allows drivers to encroach into a center turn lane to pass cyclists riding in a narrow lane is more comfortable for cyclists than a raised median barrier or heavy oncoming traffic that prevents motorists from doing so over a substantial distance.
I found this three-lane route much more pleasant for cycling than the alternative routes, which were all two narrow lanes with heavy opposite direction traffic. I also find this road more comfortable than a 2-lane road revently paved between Raleigh and Umstead state park featuring two 9' lanes with two foot shoulders and a raised center median.
LittleBigMan
...I signaled to move left so anybody behind her wouldn't also change lanes to pass me. But that only made her get mad at me, slamming her hands on the steering wheel and cussing me out.
Now I'm getting images of Bek's street gorillas getting behind the wheel and shouting, "Oooh, ooh, eeh, aaah, aaah, AAAHHH!" and banging their hands on the steering wheel. :)
What's the name of that organization, "GASS?"
"Gorillas Against Stupid Syclists" :rolleyes:
noisebeam
Steve - Agreed and I think I've been corrected/clarified that center lane is illegal to use for passing in AZ as well (as I was trained)
Al
LittleBigMan
I'm not really against anyone cycling on the sidewalk if they want to. I've done it many times. It should be a personal choice, and sometimes can give you a nice short cut. I just don't do it around here because, well, I'm stubborn, and this is Cartopia, but if you can pull it off, just watch out for yourself and be safe.
Helmet Head
Can you explain to help me understand the interpretation better. I think I get it, but its not totally obvious to me. It getting more clear to me that 729#2 applies to two lanes one way, one lane the other, but 751#4 applies to a shared turn lane which can never be used for passing
(by the way that was why I used the word 'might' in my post, I knew folks here would help me understand - I have always heard its illegal to drive/pass in center lane and I don't, but couldn't wrap my head around the law)
Al
I think you got it.
The underlying principle is that lanes that are restricted to left turns (or possibly U turns) cannot be used for passing same-direction traffic.
On a 3 lane road where the center lane is dedicated to left turns, whether for both directions or not, the principle applies to the center lane.
On a 3 lane road where the center lane is dedicated to traffic only in one direction, and not restricted to turning, the principle does not apply to the center lane.
slowandsteady
What the heck is a road diet? Sounds crunchy.
LittleBigMan
What the heck is a road diet? Sounds crunchy.
Definitely not for somebody with bad teeth.