"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Conditioning/weight question

I've been puzzled by my weight gain/loss issues for the past year or so. I'm 5'11", and my weight generally varies between 165 and 175lbs. I've been training fairly hard for some time now, lifting weights in the gym, etc. I ride lots of miles (over 10K annually) and I don't really stop in the winter. When I look in the mirror right now I look very trim, but still my weight is a rather substantial 174lbs. Not bad for January, but odd considering how trim I look. I have an uphill TT in early May. I'd like to be 165 by then. I'm starting to wonder if that's even possible. A few questions:

• I do lift weights in the winter, but minimal with my upper body. I'm wondering if I should knock that upper body weight lifting (light benching, curls) all together and increase the core work (abs).

• I hit the lower body weights as hard as I can (bad lower back, right knee).

• A little over a year ago I bottomed out @ about 163lbs, but since then I've never been able to get back to that lower body weight.

Is it possible that the hard riding/weight lifting in the winter has added some muscle mass that I've permanently added 3-5 lbs? That's what I'm thinking. I'm actually climbing better at the heavier weight, so go figure. I look so trim @ 174lbs that it makes me think I'm built more like a football cornerback than a climbing cyclist. It wouldn't be hard for me to get up to 185-190 lbs if I hit the upper body weights hard, and I wouldn't be fat at all. But my goal is to be <165lbs and to stay strong.

I also wonder how much of this has to do with advancing towards 50 years old? I do think your body holds onto weight harder as you age. I hadn't weighed myself in a few months (it's getting too depressing). Besides, I still ride as hard as I can and watch what I eat regardless, so it's not like it's going to change much knowing I'm 5 lbs. heavier than I'd like to be.

The good news is that if I look this trim @ 174 if can really get down to 165lbs and stay strong I should be climbing better than I ever have. We'll find out I suppose. Has anyone else had this experience where they felt stronger and looked/felt fit but couldn't get down to the lighter body weight they had achieved in the past?

I'm lifting weights 3x/week on my trainingpeaks.com plan, and FWIW the only upper body they prescribe is seated row, crunches, and lat pulldown. If you're spending too much time on upper body you might just be building muscle mass that you have to lug up climbs. But I'm just trusting Friel on this one...

We are all different of course but my weight rarely fluctuates more than 3-5 lbs from 'in season' to 'off season'. I'm like you in the sense that I really don't have an off season, I ride or go to gym all year long. I do see a 3-4% gain in BF% in the 'off season' though and honestly I'm more concerned about that number than my actual weight.

My upper body work consists of 3 x 10 reps with a 100lb barbell, 3 x 10 reps with a 30lb curling bar and 4 x 20 pushups (pushups in between ab exercises). I would guess the leg weights/cycling are adding much more substantial muscle mass than that light upper body work.

I ended November at right around 180 and holding steady from a day to day basis (6'2"). I tried everything I could to drop weight. Finally, I just had to suck it up and take very careful measure of portion size. I found myself eating 1 sandwich instead of two at lunch, or a 6" sub instead of footlong. One helping of dinner only. Fruit for snacks between meals. Whatever that did for me, it worked.

Right now I'm weighing 170ish and now eating like a horse to maintain weight. Portion size did the trick for me.

No upper body work for me...

Years of bodybuilding hijinks left me with still some excess weight up top. I know lots of folks just work legs and core. Most of the leg work is either very high rep, or explosive power/plyometric type work.

patentcad, you should really be shooting for this: :D

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/103727main_bodybuilder.jpg

patentcad, you should really be shooting for this: :D

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/103727main_bodybuilder.jpg

I'm printing that out and taping it to the Frigelator (that's what my daughter called our Fridge when she was 3).

I guess one way to know for sure would be to get your body fat percentage tested using hydrostatic weighing. If your bfp is under 10% there's obviously not a whole lot of room left to work in the fat reduction department.

--Steve

'Bodybuilding hijinks' ?

That does sound like a gay porno movie. Just sayin'.

I'm printing that out and taping it to the Frigelator (that's what my daughter called our Fridge when she was 3).

I've come to refer to these images as "botto bait." :D

When I look in the mirror right now I look very trim, but still my weight is a rather substantial 174lbs. Not bad for January, but odd considering how trim I look. I have an uphill TT in early May. I'd like to be 165 by then. I'm starting to wonder if that's even possible.

The general rule of thumb regarding weight loss is this - you can generally lose about 1-2/week safely. In other words, you can generally lose 1-2 pounds/week without also losing significant muscle mass. Of course, everyone is a bit different and this amount will vary with total weight of the rider. My point is that you can now do the math (be conservative), and tell if you can make a certain weight by a certain time.

If you look/feel lean (your pants are lose, etc), you are most likely gaining muscle though. :)

I'm printing that out and taping it to the Frigelator (that's what my daughter called our Fridge when she was 3).I've come to refer to these images as "botto bait." :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/botto/pdiddy.jpg

AJ told me that he lost all of his upper body muscle by going on loooong easy rides with an empty stomach. When you begin to feel weak after a bit, eat a 4:1 ratio of carbs/protein.

He lost like 50 lbs of muscle doing this, so I'm giving it a try.

Don't forget, it's winter....body will add a few pounds of fat, that usually easily sheds come April/May.

AJ told me that he lost all of his upper body muscle by going on loooong easy rides with an empty stomach. When you begin to feel weak after a bit, eat a 4:1 ratio of carbs/protein.

He lost like 50 lbs of muscle doing this, so I'm giving it a try.

AJ Foyt?

AJ Foyt?


Smith.

I guess one way to know for sure would be to get your body fat percentage tested using hydrostatic weighing. If your bfp is under 10% there's obviously not a whole lot of room left to work in the fat reduction department.

--Steve

BFP is the really the only number I ever care about. For example in Nov my BFP was 10-11% and I was at 147lbss. Today my weight is the same and I'm my BFP is 8-9%. This tells me I've swaped fat for muscle, by April I hoe to be back at my peak weight and BFP which is 145lbs and 7-8% BFP.

i'm the opposite of most of you guys. my struggle is to gain weight. in fact, if i don't pay attention to eating enough i'll easily slip into dangeriously slim territory.

Gee I wish I had that problem....since I like to eat.

i'm the opposite of most of you guys. my struggle is to gain weight. in fact, if i don't pay attention to eating enough i'll easily slip into dangeriously slim territory.

If I had his phone number I'd dispatch Euro to kill you immediately. Not being able to gain weight does not qualify as a 'struggle' unless you have terminal cancer.

If you're very lean, and your goal is to climb the best you can, I'd quit lifting for your upper body (not including core work). If you've lost the fat and want to weigh less you've got to lose it somewhere, and big pec's are not doing much to propel you down the road.

For a lot of us, who aren't that lean, I think upper body resistence training actually helps because we can get leaner from the metabolic effect of more muscle.

And one big reason its harder to lose weight as you age, is that you lose muscle mass, and therefore decrease your calorie demand. Resistence training helps reverse that.

i'm the opposite of most of you guys. my struggle is to gain weight. in fact, if i don't pay attention to eating enough i'll easily slip into dangeriously slim territory.

Never post to this forum again or I'll hunt you down and kill you :mad: :crash:

Patentcad, it's likely you're shifting fat to muscle if you're doing gym work. Weight will stay static but you're moving things from useless to good mass. I usually do an 8-12 week weight (legs) cycle before I knock off and just do core work.

Hard for me to keep the weight off, I like to eat and drink, and have a slow metabolism (did a recent BMR test to confirm). What I've taken to doing is on my lighter and recovery weeks I do the whole food log thing, weighing and logging what I eat. I found that by having to be really aware of the consequences of say, a scone, I steer to better/lighter fare and can drop weight fairly easily. On the heavier training weeks I just eat.

If I had his phone number I'd dispatch Euro to kill you immediately. Not being able to gain weight does not qualify as a 'struggle' unless you have terminal cancer.

haha. i always get this kind of response when i tell people this.

i'm actually around 12-15 lbs below what is considered "light" for my height. at 5'11 and 133lbs, i'm definitely a liteweight. in fact, over the holidays i dropped from around 140 to my current weight unexpectedaly. i just didn't visit a scale for a few weeks, and was surprised at what i saw. and before anyone says i'm not eating enough, here is what i consume on an average day:

breakfast: breakfast bar, bagel, banana, 6oz mixed fruit, granola w\ yogurt, coffee.
snack: v8 juice, 1 cup mixed nuts
lunch: turkey sandwich, vegtables.
late afternoon snack: fig newtons, clif bar
dinner: pasta w\ chicken, vegtables, salad, bread
dessert: ice cream, beer, or whatever.

during the racing season, i supplement with a protein shake, which adds another 20g protein and 350 cals. and a serving of endurox after rides. even with all that i barely maintain my 'underweight' status. it's kinda crazy, actually.

Are you 17 years old? I remember back when I was 17 years old, I could eat an entire pizza and not gain weight.

Patentcad, it's likely you're shifting fat to muscle if you're doing gym work. .

There may well be something to this: I was down to 163 lbs or so in October of 2005. In November of 2005 I started a weight lifting program that I stuck with through March, and after that I was never really able to get below 168lbs all through 2006, even though by July/August I was riding 300 miles weekly (average for about 4-5 months) and watching my diet. I have photos from our vacation in Greece last August and trust me: there wasn't any excess fat on my frame. I look as lean as I ever have been in those pictures; I was riding through the mountains to the tune of 50-75 miles every day in 85-95ºF temps for two solid weeks on that trip. But when I got back to the States my weight was pretty much stuck on 168. That does seem consistent with the 174 I'm seeing now in mid-winter.

I take the scale with a grain of salt to some extent. If you're having a hard time 'pinching an inch' around your middle you're pretty much there, and that's about where I was @ 168 last summer. Still, I'd like to get down to 165 by May 1. I'm working on it.

And now you know why guys who are 6'2" 175 lbs and complain that they 'can't gain weight' make me and others around here homicidal : ).

Are you 17 years old? I remember back when I was 17 years old, I could eat an entire pizza and not gain weight.


nah, i'm 29. my dad is like this too. although he only started putting on a little weight in his mid 50's. and by a little weight, i just mean about 10 lbs.

he was 5'11 and 127 when he married my mother. so, compared to him, i'm a heavy weight.

And now you know why guys who are 6'2" 175 lbs and complain that they 'can't gain weight' make me and others around here homicidal

How about those of us who are 6'2'' 166 and can't lose weight?

There is a fat guy in me just waiting to get out. If I dont watch what I eat I put on weight fast. At 6'1''
I am currently weighing in at 169 or so. The thing of it is though is I still have more body fat then I should I think around 21-23%. I am not naturally muscular at all. I would love to get sub 165 for a racing weight and a body fat % under 15. We can all dream......
Anyone know of a good way to test bodyfat? I cant do the water test. And I have one of those bf % scales which is way off. Are those calpiers where they pinch your skin in various spots fairly accurate?

I'd say your body fat numbers are way off, or you have no muscles. I'm your height, outweigh you.(currently, and unfortunately) by 40 lbs, and my body fat is around 11%.

How about those of us who are 6'2'' 166 and can't lose weight?

Why would anyone who is 6'2" and 166lbs want to lose weight? 166 is my goal weight for competitive amateur cycling and I'm 5'11". If I wasn't riding 10 gazillion friggin miles every year I'd be 180lbs + in about two months. That's more my natural body weight than under 170. That's where Lance's weight went when he stopped cycling lots of miles - *boom*, 180lbs. I have to do an extreme amount of calorie burning activity to stay below 175 all the time. My guess is that without cycling I'd be 180-190lbs if I was fit. When I did nothing for 5 years I was 200-210 lbs. That was overweight (fat even) for me, but that just goes to show you.

I'm not one of these guys that can sit around, do nothing and stay skinny. That's one of the reasons I love cycling. Keeps me from getting fat.

There is a fat guy in me just waiting to get out.

Anyone know of a good way to test bodyfat? I cant do the water test. And I have one of those bf % scales which is way off. Are those calpiers where they pinch your skin in various spots fairly accurate?

Might fat guy got out and ran rampant for too many years. I've been donating a lot of his clothes to charity over the last few years.

The Omron HBF-306 BF analyzer isn't bad, it was a point or so off in my case but it's a decent relative measure if you're tracking. The calipers can yield a bunch of different results depending on who is doing it.

Well, a lot of professional trainers and the like have pointed out that you can only lose so much weight doing a particular cardio sport before you plateau out. Apparently, our body's get efficient, so the more we do something over and over, it learns and adjusts to take less effort each time you do it again (burning less calories.) So you'll get stronger, build more muscles perhaps, but not burn as much fat...

Maybe this is the case for you?

The electrical impedance method for measuring bodyfat is terrible as far as accuracy, but many of them are pretty precise. If you just want to track changes, then a scale with bodyfat % on it should usually work fine, it just means you can't take your BF% to online dick measuring contests because its not accurate.

And yeah, I do want to be lighter than 166 at 6'2''. Last time I had body fat % done (hydrostacicaly), I had 12%. Over this winter (3 months of lifting) I plan to put on a few poundsd of muscle and lose about 8 pouns of fat, leaving me around 160. Power to weight baby.

Well, a lot of professional trainers and the like have pointed out that you can only lose so much weight doing a particular cardio sport before you plateau out. Apparently, our body's get efficient, so the more we do something over and over, it learns and adjusts to take less effort each time you do it again (burning less calories.) So you'll get stronger, build more muscles perhaps, but not burn as much fat...

Maybe this is the case for you?

I'll buy that. Considering the fact that I rode 13,000+ miles in 2006 and actually was sightly heavier at the end of the year than at the end of 2005, it's the only plausible explaination, combined with muscle mass increase. I'm sure after 21K miles over the past 21 months my body is attuned to cycling - and probably doesn't burn as many calories per mile as it did when I resumed cycling in 2005. The lightest body weight I was ever able to carry through a 10 year racing 'career' was 163-165lbs anyway. When I dropped any lower than 164 or so I started losing strength. So 165-166 is a realistic target for me I suppose, and 168 isn't too far above that either.

Well, a lot of professional trainers and the like have pointed out that you can only lose so much weight doing a particular cardio sport before you plateau out. Apparently, our body's get efficient, so the more we do something over and over, it learns and adjusts to take less effort each time you do it again (burning less calories.) So you'll get stronger, build more muscles perhaps, but not burn as much fat...

Yep. I've found I hit points and have to adjust food intake or training load to start things moving again.

The Omron isn't a great method, other than as a relative measure if you make sure you use it under the same conditions (first thing in the morning before food intake, Etc). Dexa scan and underwater are the most accurate.

With all this talk about core exercise would any of you guys care to share your core body workout? I have a routine I do for my core but am curious to hear what you guys are doing. I'd like to change it up a bit.

Thanks.

With all this talk about core exercise would any of you guys care to share your core body workout? I have a routine I do for my core but am curious to hear what you guys are doing. I'd like to change it up a bit.

Thanks.

I use a BOSU ball. I lie on with the small of my back on the center of the ball and do 100 crunches. I then slide over to one side and do 50 more and then to the other side and do 50 more. I do this every morning.

With all this talk about core exercise would any of you guys care to share your core body workout? I have a routine I do for my core but am curious to hear what you guys are doing. I'd like to change it up a bit.

Thanks.

5 times a week i do:

back raises to strengthen the lower back
crunches
pushups

2 times a week i do:

lunges
squats with dumbells

the rest is bike riding and some stair climbs.

With all this talk about core exercise would any of you guys care to share your core body workout? I have a routine I do for my core but am curious to hear what you guys are doing. I'd like to change it up a bit.

Thanks.

In addition to all the standard stuff, I try to mix in various things on swiss balls, using medicine balls, and lifting for upper body while standing on the half ball stability platform.

By changing up my core routine, its a little less boring, and supposedly gives your body fresh challenges.

Also the stability platform, swiss ball stuff seems to work your core in a little more functional, athletic, manner.

If you want to do any cross training, Kayaking, done right, is a fantastic core workout.

I forgot to add that I do this excersise. I lie on the BOSU ball and hold my feet about 2" above the ground while hold a 10lb ball above my head. I hold this for 2 min, rest for 1 min and repeat two more times.

And now you know why guys who are 6'2" 175 lbs and complain that they 'can't gain weight' make me and others around here homicidal : ).

Why would I want to gain weight at 175? Low body fat (not sure, calipers aren't the best method, but it's all I've got) and it's hard to stay at 175ish. Thats were I want to stay for racing. Any lighter, and my sprinting may suffer, any heavier and the damn skinnes will walk away from me in the hills.

You might be right Merlin. But I have no reliable way to measure it. But 11% is pretty low. You must be pretty muscular. How did you get it tested?

the caliper bit, and mine is probably off too low, as yours is high.

Thanks for the replies about core strengthening

I think most peoples bf% is higher than they think it is. I just busted out the calculater and if my bf% is 23 that means I have 38.64 pounds of blubber. That is a lot of fat. I am probably closer to 25 pounds of fat. That is 15% bf%. I dont know.....

So you're telling us we're all too fat. Tell something I didn't know.

Whenever my mother or my physician starts wringing their hands about how I'm 'too thin' I laugh at them. You MUST be joking I reply: ' If you saw what I go through to try to GET like this you wouldn't worry. Trust me on this.' Then on the way home from the doctor's office I drive by a Domino's Pizza and that makes me gain 5lbs.

Somehow I suspect that if I ever stopped riding 250+ miles every week I'd get nice and chubby like my Mom prefers. Rapidly. Which is why I'll never stop.

Somehow I suspect that if I ever stopped riding 250+ miles every week I'd get nice and chubby like my Mom prefers. Rapidly. Which is why I'll never stop.

Hell yeah. My "large" Norwegian family is frequently trying to fatten me up.

Sure, it's probably out of love, but I've got a sneaking suspicion they're trying to pull a Hansel and Gretel on me...

Well, a lot of professional trainers and the like have pointed out that you can only lose so much weight doing a particular cardio sport before you plateau out. Apparently, our body's get efficient, so the more we do something over and over, it learns and adjusts to take less effort each time you do it again (burning less calories.) So you'll get stronger, build more muscles perhaps, but not burn as much fat...

Maybe this is the case for you?


This explains so much ... (quote from Almost Famous)

I ran track and cross country in high school and college and intermittently after that. In my 40's I ran marathons but only got down to 180 (165 in college). I took up cycling in 2004 and last summer dipped as low as 158. Granted different body composition in my late 40's than college age, but less fat than marathoning days.