more Swim questions - Swim Gurus needed

[Riles]

I am working on some drills for body position and stroke e.t.c, but a couple of things seem strange...

The one drill I do for timing & breathing is not making sense - the drill advises.. "after 3 strokes of 3/4 catch up, as yr recovering hand enters the water for the 3rd stroke and leading hand initiates catch (good so far) start your roll to the air so that you've completed breathing out by the time you recovering hadn reaches full extention - this doesn't seem long enough to breath out - and for me seems a long time before I can breath in again ?? out what point do you breath in ? as recovery hand leaves water ?

This leads me on to why I get out of breath after 100m with breathing every 3 stroke, yet can swim 1000m every 2 srokes and not be out of breath at all - I am wondering if my strokes are a little slow and therefore I am not getting enough air in time or I am simply not breathing correctly..

I am definetly smoother and more streamlined every 3 strokes - just wondering how many triathletes breath every 2 strokes or should I try to improve every 3 ?

Thanks !!

[Psydotek]

Essentially what it's saying is that you need to be breathing out the entire time your face is in the water. When you reach your inhalation stroke, you want to be able to breathe in the whole time your face is out of the water. Then the moment your face goes back into the water, start breathing out again. You inhale in with one stroke then exhale with two strokes.

Force yourself to breathe every 3 strokes even if it means going at a slower pace at first. It'll take some time for your body to get used to the reduced air intake but once you've got it, it'll help greatly with your speed and endurance. Also, it'll teach you to breathe on both sides which is important if you have to swim in choppy water.

[rknj]

3 strokes is 50% better than two. Just wait til you upgrade to 5. :)

[Ston_ar]

Stay with 3, 5 is way too many. Look at any good swimmer, and I guarantee that none of them breathe every 5 for any distance more than a 100 or so.

[kmkurdone]

Well, this is what I would say. I think you have it figured out that breathing throws off your position in the water (even if it is just slightly). That being said, you have to look at the cost/benefits of the situation. If you are running out of breath by breathing every 3 strokes, breathing every two is what you should do until you train your lungs to hold 3 strokes per breath. Try this set to work on your breathing.

With Pull Bouys- 3*200 (at whatever pace is comfortably hard for you) On the first set, swim the first 50 breathing every 2 strokes, the second 50 every 3, the third 50 every 4th breath, and the fourth every 5th.

The next set you will do the same thing but starting at 3 breaths on the the 1st 50. So it would go 3-4-5-6

The third do the same thing but breath 3-5-7-9 or any variation you can. The last 50 should burn your lungs obviously.

[domlog]

Like someone else already stated it seems like your trying to breath out when your mouth is out of the water If I understand correctly. What you should be doing is breathing continuously as your head is in the water and only breathing in as your mouth clears the water. As far as when to breath your about on when you say you should start when your recovery hand is just exiting, it really depends on your stroke. It sounds like your problem with not being able to hold a 3 stroke count is that your not comfortable breathing on both sides. If your head position gets out of line from a bad breath your next stroke will be off and cause you to swim in a zig zag pattern. This is due to bad hand placement and an inefficent stroke. I doubt that your stroke rate has much to do with your problem. I only take 9 strokes per 25 and hold a 3 count no problem (:55 100yrd pace). I know alot of distance swimmers who do ok with a 2 stroke count, but most are either 3 or 4. If your one of the people out there who just cant seem to breath to one side or the other try to aim for a 4 stroke count. Still the ideal situation is to work on being able to breath on both sides while still maintaining an even effiecent stroke through the water. If you need some drills to help you with this e-mail me and I'll be glad to help you out.

[domlog]

Try this set to work on your breathing.
With Pull Bouys- 3*200 (at whatever pace is comfortably hard for you) On the first set, swim the first 50 breathing every 2 strokes, the second 50 every 3, the third 50 every 4th breath, and the fourth every 5th.
The next set you will do the same thing but starting at 3 breaths on the the 1st 50. So it would go 3-4-5-6
The third do the same thing but breath 3-5-7-9 or any variation you can. The last 50 should burn your lungs obviously. All this is going to do is teach her body to work anaerobically, kinda the opposite were going for in triathlons. As far as the pull bouy goes I have always thought of them as a crutch when working on stroke technique. Alot of your stability in your storke comes from a nice steady 2-3 beat kick. Learning how-to breath without one often ony produces more trouble in the long run in my experiance.

[brock1234]

Training using 3 strokes is a handy skill to have, it balances your stroke alot more, and as some one said above gives you the ability to breath either side in the open water (which is really handy, specially on a windy day). As far as going faster with 3-5 strokes goes (at least with anything over 200m)... I really think thats a load of crap. I see the logic, but you have to balance it out with how much distance per stroke its going to cost you, rhythm, oxygen intake, and stroke rate. I've found that it's really easy going easy or steady breathing both sides, but when your going all out you generally revert back to your natural breathing side anyway in order to find more rhythm.

Besides as far as speed goes over longer distances, look at Grant Hackett, he takes a breath every two strokes and there's no one even close to him right now in distance swimming.

Mark

[evanyc]

i've always been trained to breathe every three strokes, so at this point it comes natural, but recently i've been focusing a lot of form and trying to reduce stroke count which means longer between breaths. it's pushed my lung capacity a bit but i'm sure i'll build it up and be fine. i do breathe every two strokes if i'm really pushing it or dying though.

how many of you use paddles and fins? i've got these today to work on strength and form and used the fins for the workout this evening. it definitely took a bit of getting used to, but it made stroke drills much easier and i could feel a nice burn in my legs. i did a 2400 yard workout and used the fins for just 300 between the warm up and main set. have people here found fins and paddles to be helpful in the long run?

[rknj]

As far as going faster with 3-5 strokes goes (at least with anything over 200m)... I really think thats a load of crap. I see the logic, but you have to balance it out with how much distance per stroke its going to cost you, rhythm, oxygen intake, and stroke rate.

Well, first of all my comment was said slightly tongue in cheek. Aside from that though, I swam the 200 and 500 free for most of my life. For sprints under those distances, as well as the last 100m of the longer races, I found that my times were better if I went every 5 strokes between breaths. That's anecdotal and I have no real evidence, just that when it came to gettings new PRs I had taken less breaths.

That's of course in a pool, in a lane, and without a mob of people in wetsuits kicking you in the face. In a tri, breathe every 3 because you never know when you'll come up and find a mouthful of water instead.

[brock1234]

how many of you use paddles and fins? i've got these today to work on strength and form and used the fins for the workout this evening. it definitely took a bit of getting used to, but it made stroke drills much easier and i could feel a nice burn in my legs. i did a 2400 yard workout and used the fins for just 300 between the warm up and main set. have people here found fins and paddles to be helpful in the long run?

I'm a New Zealander and have been lucky enough to train with, or train with some of the coaches of some of our best athletes (hamish C, bevan D, andrea hewitt etc etc).

Although I have never seen the workouts they have done in order to get into tip top shape, I do have an idea of the basic layout of a typical swim workout. A typical set for example would consist of:

Warm up
Moderate set swimming freestyle
Steady-Moderate paddle/pull bouy set (optional with a band)
Moderate-Hard swimming freestyle set
Warm down


I usually have swum with a proper swim specific squad, so am used to long mileage sessions consisting of all four strokes. The triathlon specific squads I have swum with seem to avoid fins, kicking sets and breaststroke. It was weird how much you improved using this method, especially since sets were only 3-5km depending on your lane, and 4-5 swims a week.

So on what i've experienced so far, i'd say only use fins on easy days, or days you want to practice your technique (like you did the day you posted). Hand paddles are great developing strength, but just be careful not to over-use them, and to keep correct underwater technique when you are pulling, it's easy to be lazy with hand paddles because of all that extra leverage you gain.

Hope this has helped,

Brock.

[evanyc]

thanks brock - yeah, the training book i'm reading suggests using paddles and fins mostly during the base phase of training, and even then only for about 15% of your total yardage. it also doesn't recommend using kickboards or pull buoys cause they **** up your form too much, and doesn't suggest using fins or paddles after the base phase. i've been occasionally using a kickboard for an active recovery after speed sets, but im trying to taper that off.

this is my workout for this week:

Endurance day (Sunday)
600 yard warm up (300 free, 200 kick, 100 free)
900 yard continuous swim @ 1:50 pace
300 yard cool down

Speed day (Tuesday):
600 yard warm up (300 free, 200 kick, 100 free)
300 yard drills (using fins - catch up, finger drag, side kick)
1200 yard main set: 4x (4x50 @ 40 second pace w/ 20 second recover) - 100 yard active recovery
300 yard cool down

Max Oxygen day (Thursday):
600 yard warm up (300 free, 200 kick, 100 free)
300 yard drills (using paddles)
1200 yard main set: 6 x 200 @ 3:00 pace w/ 1:00
300 yard cool down

[evanyc]

alright, so just got back from the gym and it suuuuuucked. i guess it's due to all the new years resolutions and whatnot, but it's just WAY more crowded right now than it was prior to december. to make matters worse, at noon they go from 5 laps lanes down to 2! babies in two and water aerobics in 2. boooo.

so i was trying to do my workout and got through the second 200 interval in my main set when the other lanes got shut down and suddenly there were 4 people in each of the two lap lanes. this wouldn't be a problem if everyway was anywhere near the same pace, but that wasn't the case. i tried one more interval and it was ridiculous. i couldn't do a 25 without getting bottle necked and i wasn't able to pass.

in situations like these, what do ya'll do? i just did an easy 100 for a cool down and split cause it didn't seem like it was even worth it to keep swimming. guess i gotta work on getting there earlier or just going after 9pm.

[brock1234]

Well there's several options that me and my mates have used successfully in the past to make people move over a lane. I think it depends mostly on your fitness, and how much "splash" you can create :)

Here's some ideas...

- Do a set of 8 50's butterfly. Make sure you concentrate on getting your arms as wide as possible.

- When you pass a swimmer that's chugging, make sure your kicking as hard as possible, it makes them think your a superstar and they'll realise if they continue swimming in your lane that they'll be unable to breath and eventually drown in the white water your creating.

- If the swimmer you are trying to remove is standing at the end of the pool, make sure you put lots of aggressive effort into your tumble turns, hit that wall hard and fast, and maybe 20-30cm away from them.

- Do a short warm-up, but then do a pretty long and hard set. If your considerably faster than the people in your lane, they'll freak out and move pretty quick! :D

Brock.

[ranger5oh]

:roflmao: Well there's several options that me and my mates have used successfully in the past to make people move over a lane. I think it depends mostly on your fitness, and how much "splash" you can create :)

Here's some ideas...

- Do a set of 8 50's butterfly. Make sure you concentrate on getting your arms as wide as possible.

- When you pass a swimmer that's chugging, make sure your kicking as hard as possible, it makes them think your a superstar and they'll realise if they continue swimming in your lane that they'll be unable to breath and eventually drown in the white water your creating.

- If the swimmer you are trying to remove is standing at the end of the pool, make sure you put lots of aggressive effort into your tumble turns, hit that wall hard and fast, and maybe 20-30cm away from them.

- Do a short warm-up, but then do a pretty long and hard set. If your considerably faster than the people in your lane, they'll freak out and move pretty quick! :D

Brock.


:roflmao:

[Flak]

I find that most people in the lap lanes do between 50 and 200 before resting for a bit. Im still just swimming sheer distance (3km) so i keep going and going and going without a rest, and eventually they get the idea that i'm not there to screw around, and they tend to give me right of way.

[kuf]

The number of strokes you take per breath changes with the distance of the race. If it is a sprint, you breath less often as in an endurance race. This is partly due to how much you use your legs, partly to the compounding oxygen defecit over longer distances. In endurance events, the kicks per stroke will be much less than in a sprint.

It seems like you need to work on your swimming endurance if you get out of breath breathing every 3 strokes for 100m. Make sure you are not kicking too much. You may have poor form and kick hard to keep afloat or moving forward.