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I'm looking for the European perspective here.
This side of the Atlantic, Bernard Hinault was a total jerk who was so prideful that he wouldn't work for Greg Lemond. His attitude was summed up as anti-American and hateful and seemed to mirror feelings around the cycling world that Americans had no rightful placein a European sport.
Is there any truth to this?
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I think he was a badger actually.
Hinault did actually do some work for LeMond in the '85 Coors Classic after LeMond was forced to give him the Tour. But then he reverted to his ass-i-ness the next year and basically threw a big bucket o' funk on Greg's post-Tour event in the US.
There is actually a promotional piece on Hinault in the Coors Classic DVD that I haven't been able to quite stomach. Believe it or not, I think it's called "A Promise Fulfilled" and was put together by his sponsors at Look so it's not exactly hard hitting. Aisner could have put something better on there but Hinault's appearance at the race (largely due to Mo Siegal's influence) was pretty important for domestic racing.
Regardless, if an American behaved like Hinault used to the Europeans would treat him like Armstrong or Landis or Hamilton or any of the other Yanks that they dislike. Nothing new there.
But Richard Virenque and Christophe Moreau are honorable dudes right?
The not working for Lemond stuff, was BS driven by Americans lacking in knowledge about bike racing and with a biased perspective. In the 1985 TDF, Hinault was the team leader and Lemond was obligated to work for him. The mistake Hinault made was his gratuitous promise to help Lemond in 1986.
Setting aside how he treated Lemond, Hinaut definitely had the reputation for being an ass.
I'm looking for the European perspective here.
This side of the Atlantic, Bernard Hinault was a total jerk who was so prideful that he wouldn't work for Greg Lemond. His attitude was summed up as anti-American and hateful and seemed to mirror feelings around the cycling world that Americans had no rightful placein a European sport.
Is there any truth to this?
Who was it that 'found' Lemond and got him a European contract? (Hint: You mention him by name). Go back to 85/86 find all North American riders. What percentage rode for La Vie Claire?
It would seem the idea that Hinault has an Anti American bias is complete Bull.
Now his failure to honor his word in 86 is a different matter. However even there his actions were not as out of line and tradition as most Americans make them. He found the one way he could 'help Lemond' and also help his own chances of winning. Attack, attack. attack! The peleton lead by other teams will have to chase him down and Lemond can sit on and then counter. Not Hinault's fault if they don't chase him down. A young Coppi did the same thing to Bartoli (after asking permission and telling a bit of a lie). On this Hinault stayed consistent. On one stage in the early teens Hinault was in the lead by about 3 minutes and still attacked. He was caught and on that stage Lemond made up the time.
The typical American summary was that Lemond had only the North Americans working for him and the rest of La Vie Claire working for Hinault. But Steve Bauer, the Canadian, counted it as Bauer and Hampstein working for Lemond and only one French rider working for Hinault with two very confused Swiss riders not knowing what to do and two very veteran French riders riding to maximize the team winnings (which mattered a lot at that time).
BTW I had to look up some stuff so I bothered to get the answer for percentage on North American riders for La Vie Claire. In 85 100% with Lemond and Bauer. In 86 there were 13 North American riders in the tour 3 for La Vie Claire and 10 for 7-11.
Was Hinault an ass? I tend that way, but just in being greedy and wanting it all for himself. Anti American? No way, but also no way so pro American that he would hesitate from running over an American to win.
BTW with me you still do not have a European perspective, simple an educated contrarian American perspective. Oh and I rate Hinault 3rd all time, just behind Coppi.
Well from my bit of Europe Hinault was never a jerk. Pig headed? yes, stubborn? yep Hard as nails? Yes.
Don't forget he was designated team leader, he's French, riding for a French team in Le tour. So even if he was riding like a bag of nails there was no way he was playing 2nd fiddle to anyone or indeed being allowed to do so.
Hinault was one of the last riders who raced a whole season, trying to win from Spring classics to the falling leaves. GL started to change that, so maybe there was a clash of cycling cultures here as well?
BTW with me you still do not have a European perspective, simple an educated contrarian American perspective. Oh and I rate Hinault 3rd all time, just behind Coppi.
Does this mean that you place big Eddy at the top of the list, if so have to agree with you, on all 3:)
let's talks the 86's photographs (l'Alpe d'Huez stage)
http://www.grahamwatson.com/dublin/lemond/images/image22.jpg
http://mammary.nih.gov/LGP/cycling/favorites/Tour-de-Cure/Images/Hinault-Lemond.jpg
http://www.lequipe.fr/Xml/Cyclisme/Dossiers/Media/hin_lemond_86.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races06/tdf06/tdf86-hinault.jpg[
http://www.lcl.com/fr/communication/sponsoring/tourdefrance/tour-de-france-2006/att00001113/hinault-lemond-course-grd.jpg
http://www.lcl.com/fr/communication/sponsoring/tourdefrance/tour-de-france-2006/att00001113/hinault-lemond-alpe-dhuez-grd.jpg
hinault is always in front, he make the job but lemond is in yellow
that's a team work
don't forget that hinault was a champion, sure he was hating lemond as he was hating everybody who was in front his wheel.. american or not.. this is instinct
at this time it has been said that the decision to make win Lemond was a commercial decision. it would allow to "la vie claire" to open the american market to the french products..
but "more probably" Lemond was stronger.. Hinault was 32 and it was his last Tour, so he tried and failed.. the swan song
sincerely there was never hate against lemond in France, cause he was in a french team so in each case France won (and that is the most important, nevermind how.. :p )
and i don't like sport, i've no heros but Hinault has a special place in my heart.. (and i'm not gay!:rolleyes: )
Well from my bit of Europe Hinault was never a jerk. Pig headed? yes, stubborn? yep Hard as nails? Yes.
Don't forget he was designated team leader, he's French, riding for a French team in Le tour. So even if he was riding like a bag of nails there was no way he was playing 2nd fiddle to anyone or indeed being allowed to do so.
Hinault was one of the last riders who raced a whole season, trying to win from Spring classics to the falling leaves. GL started to change that, so maybe there was a clash of cycling cultures here as well?
Does this mean that you place big Eddy at the top of the list, if so have to agree with you, on all 3?
Yes I place Eddy first. Coppi is the only rider that it is even possible to make a case for being better than Eddy. (Coppi misted 5+ years out of the heart of his career to WW II, making comparisons between him and other riders a bit more subjective than otherwise). On The Cycling Hall of Fame they list riders who won a major tour and the worlds in the same year. They also list Multiple jersey winners of the major tours. There are some other listings that could be made, but the lists are short. Usually Eddy and 1 or two other riders. More often than not the other rider(s) are Hinault and/or Coppi.
Winning multiple jerseys in two major tours in one year. Merckx and Coppi.
Doing both the Major tour- Worlds double and Major Tour Paris-roubaix double. Hinault and Merckx. (Since Hinault won the TDF and Paris-Roubaix in 1981 only Sean Kelly has won a major tour and Paris Robaix in a career).
Crossing the finish line first in yellow. Merckx and Hinault (twice). (Other riders have won the final stage while in yellow, merckx has a total of 4 or 5, but all others were time trials where they actually cross the line last or nearly last).
Winning all 3 jerseys in the TDF in a career. Merckx and Hinault. (Merckx wom all 3 in his first TDF, Coppi never had a chance as no points jersey existed).
Hinault is the only rider ever to win all 3 major tours in his first attempt.
I think you are right about a change of cultures. Draw a line between 85 and 86. 85 and before France, Belgium and Italy won the vast majority of TDFs. 86 on Italy has won once, France and Belgium not at all. As mentioned Hinault was the last of the ride all year guys.
BTW Lemond was well liked in France. He bothered to learn French. He was no more impatient to move up than most European riders. Also when it comes to the incident with Lemond being held nack in 85 there is still some question as to just who made the decision. Lemond was told Hinault was just a little ways back. This was not true. At least 2 groups past Lemond as he waited fot Hinault. But it was not Hinault who told the lie to Lemond. Just who made the decision to lie to Lemond is still unclear.
BTW Lemond was well liked in France.
it was true, and it is always true. he is humble.
Hinault is an alpha male. Hard as nails, stubborn, arrogant at his best, and even though Armstrong has a claim to it Hinault was the last true Patron of the peloton IMO. When he was slighted or when he wanted to win an event he was unstoppable. I can't recall anyone ever making statements like Hinault 'I'll win the race on the weekend' - then backing it up.
His world championship win, his win in the first TT of the 1985 Tour, his wins in Lombardy in 1979 and Liege in a blizzard in 1980 were incredibly dominant rides.
let's talks the 86's photographs (l'Alpe d'Huez stage)
http://www.grahamwatson.com/dublin/lemond/images/image22.jpg
http://mammary.nih.gov/LGP/cycling/favorites/Tour-de-Cure/Images/Hinault-Lemond.jpg
http://www.lequipe.fr/Xml/Cyclisme/Dossiers/Media/hin_lemond_86.jpg
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/photos/races06/tdf06/tdf86-hinault.jpg[
http://www.lcl.com/fr/communication/sponsoring/tourdefrance/tour-de-france-2006/att00001113/hinault-lemond-course-grd.jpg
http://www.lcl.com/fr/communication/sponsoring/tourdefrance/tour-de-france-2006/att00001113/hinault-lemond-alpe-dhuez-grd.jpg
hinault is always in front, he make the job but lemond is in yellow
that's a team work
don't forget that hinault was a champion, sure he was hating lemond as he was hating everybody who was in front his wheel.. american or not.. this is instinct
at this time it has been said that the decision to make win Lemond was a commercial decision. it would allow to "la vie claire" to open the american market to the french products..
but "more probably" Lemond was stronger.. Hinault was 32 and it was his last Tour, so he tried and failed.. the swan song
sincerely there was never hate against lemond in France, cause he was in a french team so in each case France won (and that is the most important, nevermind how.. :p )
and i don't like sport, i've no heros but Hinault has a special place in my heart.. (and i'm not gay!:rolleyes: )
+1
Is Hinault's head huge or what? In every picture it looks like someone enlarged it a bit.
Is Hinault's head huge or what? In every picture it looks like someone enlarged it a bit.
Yes. But when he quit cycling he grew into it. ;)
I'm looking for the European perspective here.
This side of the Atlantic, Bernard Hinault was a total jerk who was so prideful that he wouldn't work for Greg Lemond. His attitude was summed up as anti-American and hateful and seemed to mirror feelings around the cycling world that Americans had no rightful placein a European sport.
Is there any truth to this?
Not every action that is motivated by pride, fame and team politics, and who has an American at the wrong end of it is "Anti-American". People can be stupid, selfish, stubborn and have whatever else moral failings without harboring ill feelings towards any nation in particular.
Lemond said looking back he understands and may have done the same thing [but at the time....he was not happy]...it was in the TDF coverage.....
The baton was passed from Hinault to Lemond. Can't be faulted for trying to win.
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