General Cycling Discussion - Traffic Tickets on bicycle - points on license

I just got busted by a bone-head cop in San Jose, California for going through a red light on my bicycle. He wrote me a moving violation ticket and told me that it will be counted as a point against me on my drivers license, just the same as if I went through it in a car.

I have being doing some research on this and turned up conflicting results. San Francisco Bicycle Coalition web site says "You do not get points on your license for bike violations."
http://www.sfbike.org/biking_resources/got_a_ticket/

Does anyone know what the situation is with the law on this?

Originally posted by acurran
I just got busted by a bone-head cop in San Jose, California for going through a red light on my bicycle.

DID you run the light? Because if you did, then how's the cop a bonehead for just doing his job?

Originally posted by jatkins679
DID you run the light? Because if you did, then how's the cop a bonehead for just doing his job? That's what I'm screaming. If you ran the red you deserve everything that's coming to you. Law-abiding cyclists get a bad rap because of morons who don't obey the law, making it increasingly difficult to be taken seriously as a genuine road user riding as a vehicle.

From my unpleasent exchange with him I came to the conclusion that he's a 'bone-head ' but that's besides the point, you can just read my post again with 'bone-head' left out. And yes the light was red but there were no cars around. A $25 ticket for that is one thing but points on my drivers license when I 'm not even driving?

well not bagging on you but it should count against you, and don’t get me wrong cuz I sometimes run them BUT that's the risk we take. If a car runs a light is "but there were no cars around" a valid excuse? Nope. If you practice bad habits you will perform bad habits.

Originally posted by acurran
I just got busted by 'police officer' in San Jose, California for going through a red light on my bicycle. He wrote me a moving violation ticket and told me that it will be counted as a point against me on my drivers license, just the same as if I went through it in a car. Does anyone know what the situation is with the law on this?

When I lived in California I received a ticket for speeding in 1988 and, at least in 1988, if you were a licensed driver it did go against your DMV record. I'm not exactly sure how it would have worked if I didn't have my drivers license and/or was not forthright in providing him with my name and address so I don't know enough to understand what would happen to a minor or someone who didn't have a driver's license that was stopped for a moving violation.

On the bright side, like all other moving violations in California back in '88, I was able to attend traffic school to have it set aside before it went on my permanent driving record.

OK everybody, I don't care if your opinion is that I should get the electric chair for it, all I want to know is does anyone know what is the law in California regarding moving violations on a bicycle and points against ones driving license? Is that statement on sfbike.com accurate?

From what i saw on that site I'm saying "No you'll be fine." just do what the page suggests. As for running the red you deserved the ticket. You are operating a vehicle. Bicycles are described as VEHICLES in EVERY state (even in La-LA- Land) and are subject to the same laws as cars with noted exceptions. In no state is running a red a legal practice, however, running a stop sign is legal only in the state of Idaho. You did the crime now deal with the consequences, just like every other vehicle operator.

Originally posted by acurran
He wrote me a moving violation ticket and told me that it will be counted as a point against me on my drivers license, just the same as if I went through it in a car.


Damn that SUCKS!! I have never been pestered by cops while riding.....only while driving. I should have been given a warning for doing what I did.....instead I got a $130 ticket and 2 points, cops are boneheads.

In case anyone cares this is the Idaho staute taken from the Idaho state website.
49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a
bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down
and, if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection. After
slowing to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the
right-of-way to any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another
highway so closely as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the
person is moving across or within the intersection or junction of highways,
except that a person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the
right-of-way if required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the
intersection without stopping.

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Damn that SUCKS!! I have never been pestered by cops while riding.....only while driving. I should have been given a warning for doing what I did.....instead I got a $130 ticket and 2 points, cops are boneheads. You were doing donuts in a parking lot, and the cop is the bonehead?

CVC 1803(a-b) states that courts are not required to report violations garnered while operating a bike to the DMV. But it doesn't say anything about whether the DMV will or will not hold that against a cyclist's driver's license if the court sends them that conviction anyway.

A quick Google search about this turned up anecdotal stories working both ways (conviction showing up on driver's record and cyclists getting those convictions removed from their driving record), btw.

Let me clarify again:

I commute every day through an urban residential area with light traffic and stop signs or lights on almost every block. When I come to a stop sign or light I slow down check for cars, if a car is coming I stop and wait otherwise I just keep going. Now I really don't care what you people who never break a rule think about that or what I deserve for doing that. All I want to know is if anyone has any information on the points on the license thing.

Originally posted by acurran
Let me clarify again:

I commute every day through an urban residential area with light traffic and stop signs or lights on almost every block. When I come to a stop sign or light I slow down check for cars, if a car is coming I stop and wait otherwise I just keep going. Now I really don't care what you people who never break a rule think about that or what I deserve for doing that. All I want to know is if anyone has any information on the points on the license thing.

Wow, with an attitude like yours it's very surprising that the cop decided to cite you. 'Shove off if you don't like what I do but help me figure out the consequences of what I do anyway' isn't the way to get assistance, maybe someone hasn't pointed that out to you yet.

You say you don't care what other think about your bicycling habits. But you sure seem to be going to pretty great length to justify your bicycling habits to those very same people and getting pretty defensive about it.

*plonk*

Originally posted by jatkins679
A quick Google search about this turned up anecdotal stories working both ways (conviction showing up on driver's record and cyclists getting those convictions removed from their driving record), btw. [/B]

Can you post some links?

Are you going to tell me that you come to a complete stop at every single stop sign with a foot down on the ground? You must be a perfect angel!

But I'm not here to argue about that or justify it, I'm just looking for info.

I was under the impression (based upon personal experience. ;) ) that bike violations do not put points on your CA driver's license. Of course, I only failed to come to a complete stop before making a right-hand turn from a bike lane into a bike lane at a 3-way stop sign instead of blowing through a red light. This occurred in San Mateo County and I did not have a driver's license on my person.

Originally posted by acurran
Are you going to tell me that you come to a complete stop at every single stop sign with a foot down on the ground? Nope it's called a trackstand

Originally posted by Raiyn
Nope it's called a trackstand

Not so easy on a recumbent!

Originally posted by SteveE
I was under the impression (based upon personal experience. ;) ) that bike violations do not put points on your CA driver's license. Of course, I only failed to come to a complete stop before making a right-hand turn from a bike lane into a bike lane at a 3-way stop sign instead of blowing through a red light. This occurred in San Mateo County and I did not have a driver's license on my person.

On the other hand, this DMV webpage:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/vc/tocd11c1a4.htm

.... suggests that the whole 'rights and responsibilities' thing applies equally to bicyclists on public roadways, which suggests points.

Go figure, CVC and DMV literature are about as clear as mud. We pay people (legislators) good money to write concise, clear, good laws and this is what we get. And many (if not most) of them are attorneys!

Just read the applicable law. Do a google search for California Vehicle code and read. I'm guessing that since bikes are vehilces for purposes of the law (and, trust me, we want this), anything you do on a bike that violates traffic laws can be charged against your license, but that's just a guess.

Search for and read the law.

I understand the law is complicated, but that's why there are court cases. If you think writing a clear concise law that makes everyone happy is easy, try it. Trust me, it will baloon to ten pages before you know what hit you.

That said, read everything that is applicable - the law comes first. Ask what behavior the law requires. Then ask, "did I violate that law AS IT IS WRITTEN?". After that, look at the legislative reports surrounding that law. See if you are the kind of person or you did the behavior that the law was designed to target. If not, you can argue that.

I could go on, but I don't want to give away too many professional secrets. :D

I personally hope that, in whatever state that bicycles are by law in the same class as automobiles.

Then we are equal to automobiles in the eyes of the law.....THAT WOULD BE NICE!!

why'd you tell him your name? why didn't you tell him that you weren't a liscenced driver? I think I'd plead the 5th if I was caught doing a bonehead thing like running a red light with a cop watching.

Come on, you guys, there are two separate issues here. Only one of them is about acurran deserving to be cited for running a stop light, and nobody's really arguing that. He's made it clear that he takes responsibility for choosing to disobey a law, and will pay whatever the legal penalty is.

The question is what the legal penalty is.

Cyclists aren't required to have driver's licenses. So an unlicensed cyclist can't be levied points for an infraction. He may be fined, but that's it. So it seems there's a legal question whether two people committing identical infractions can be penalized differently, just because one has a license and one doesn't.

There are states where bicyclists are specifically excluded from the points system. And there are states where they are specifically covered by it, such as Indiana.

So it's a legitimate question. It's one thing to be willing to pay the price for breaking the rules, and another to be made to pay more than is required.

RichC

Originally posted by Phatman
why'd you tell him your name? why didn't you tell him that you weren't a liscenced driver?

When a cop asks for your license you can't very well say you don't have it if it's sitting right in your wallet. He would have probably patted me down, got my wallet out of my pocket and then I'd be trouble for lying to the cop. But I have thought about the posibility of a State ID card and carrying that with me instead of a drivers license in case I get haseled by cops again.

Originally posted by Rich Clark
Come on, you guys, there are two separate issues here. Only one of them is about acurran deserving to be cited for running a stop light, and nobody's really arguing that. He's made it clear that he takes responsibility for choosing to disobey a law, and will pay whatever the legal penalty is.

Thank you Rich for seeing what my post is about.

wow..... it counted towards your driver's license?... that's so damn stoopid... what would happen if you didn't have a driver's license?... you don't need one to ride a bike... so you can just tell him that you have no driver's license... then you can see what that bone head would do...(he'd prolly fine you more i think... or take you in for argueing... hahahhaha.....)

edit: oh yea... what would happen if you WALKED your bike across the red light?.. you're not USING the vehicle... just "Carrying" it... it's called J-walking... haha.. would he take off your driver's license points for walking through a red light?.... hahahah... if he does...... he's truely one !@#$ bone head...

Originally posted by livngood
When I lived in California I received a ticket for speeding in 1988 and, at least in 1988, if you were a licensed driver it did go against your DMV record.


Mark,

Are you saying you got a speeding ticket on a bicycle?!

:confused:

Zack

If you are willing to spend the money for an attorney and pay the fine and court costs for the ticket, or if you know an attorney who will do this for you, that attorney can negotiate the offense to a non-moving kind which will not result in points. I ran a stop sign once right in front of a police officer. He chastised me, but did not ticket me. Since then I've been more careful, though I do run one three-way stop sign in the subdivision when no cars are in sight.

Edit: I run that stop sign on a bike. In a car I always stop. When the cop complained at me for running the stop sign on my bike, I, as I rolled past him, said it would be a shame to waste all that momentum. He let me go. I guess chasing me down wasn't worth the trouble, or my explanation made sense. :p

Originally posted by Phatman
why'd you tell him your name? why didn't you tell him that you weren't a liscenced driver? I think I'd plead the 5th if I was caught doing a bonehead thing like running a red light with a cop watching.

Wow, now THAT would be a bonehead thing to do (lying to a cop, which is a crime).

I can't think of one cop I know that would let that slide at all. I mean, the moment a cop get an inkling that you aren't being truthful with them, you're screwed. Most of them will go out of their way to make sure you get zero breaks.

And you know what? I don't blame them. No one deserves to have his/her job made more difficult by that sort of childish behavior because they will always find out who you actually are and if you have a license even if means you go to jail, it's really that simple.

Don't lie or be coy with the police, that's just a dumb thing to do.

Originally posted by ShadowVlican
wow..... it counted towards your driver's license?... that's so damn stoopid... what would happen if you didn't have a driver's license?... you don't need one to ride a bike... so you can just tell him that you have no driver's license... then you can see what that bone head would do...(he'd prolly fine you more i think... or take you in for argueing... hahahhaha.....)

No haha there: cops just don't take people's word for it when they say who they are but don't have any id to back it up. Until they're convinced you are who you say you are, you're not going anywhere.

And when they find out you've been lying to them about who you were or that you don't have a license, you're screwed. You almost certainly will get at least a ticket for whatever it was you were pulled over for in the first place and you'd be lucky to get off without another citation for lying to a cop, which is a crime here in the states. I know of people who have been taken downtown and booked for such stupid behavior.

Lying to a cop isn't funny and it'll get you in bigger trouble. So let's just stop with that advice.

Originally posted by jatkins679

Go figure, CVC and DMV literature are about as clear as mud. We pay people (legislators) good money to write concise, clear, good laws and this is what we get. And many (if not most) of them are attorneys!

Actually, it is pretty clear. It just doesn't address the issue you're looking for but that doesn't make it "clear as mud." And besides, the issue of DMV points is an administrative issue, not statutory. DMV writes those, not the Legislature.

Originally posted by caloso
Actually, it is pretty clear.

Whatever... Clear to you, not to me.

Whatever. Yeah, you know, you're right. It was nitpicky. I'll confine my posts to more helpful commentary.

Accuran, I don't know if you'll get a point on your CDL. I don't think it's addressed in the Vehicle Code sections posted at the referenced website because it's an administrative issue, not a statutory one. Your best bet is probably to call the DMV directly. Look on their website (www.dmv.ca.gov) for a contact number. They may be able to help you.

FWIW, I hope they don't assign a point, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do.

If I am pulled over and asked to present a liscense I will promtly declare that I was not aware that bikes required a license. I would provide required information to the officer for the citation but would maintain that my liscense is class2 for operating automobiles and light trucks. Not bicycles.

As far as cops being boneheads. All of them are. I have never met a cop who had no bones in his head. But I have met many who lack living brain tissue.

As for running the red light, if its safe to go then go. If I had to stop for every stop sign or light that I came across on low traffic roads then I wouldn't really get a workout at all.

Seems to me you can't get points on a license if that license isn't required to operate the vehicle.

Originally posted by Rich Clark
There are states where bicyclists are specifically excluded from the points system. And there are states where they are specifically covered by it, such as Indiana.

So it's a legitimate question. It's one thing to be willing to pay the price for breaking the rules, and another to be made to pay more than is required.
I guess it's a question of equal protection (or punishment) under the law -- someone who has a license is penalized more than someone who doesn't have one for doing the same thing. The statutes that take points off of licenses even in the case of a moving violation committed on a bicycle are obviously written with the assumption that everyone has a drivers license and this is a uniform way to enforce traffic regulations.

It's true that bicycles should be treated the same as any other vehicle and the laws should be consistent, but one problem with that is the fact that a license is required to drive a motor vehicle but not to ride a bike, so this sets up a scenario for unequal application of the law since it's possible (and legal) for someone to ride a bicycle without a driver's licence but not drive a motor vehicle without one. For those cyclists that have no D.L. there is no license to deduct points from, so in effect no penalty unless a fine is imposed.

You could still be a holder of a valid D.L. and not have it with you and refuse to answer any questions if pulled over on the bike, but there's the chance you could be detained until your identity can be determined, which would still ruin your ride.

Originally posted by Grendel
I guess it's a question of equal protection (or punishment) under the law -- someone who has a license is penalized more than someone who doesn't have one for doing the same thing.

Except that for an equal protection argument to apply, the law would have to apply differently to people who are similarly situated. And in this case, they aren't.

Cyclist A has a driver's license. He can legally operate a motor vehicle. Cyclist B does not have a driver's license. He cannot legally operate a motor vehicle. So, even though they may commit the same violation, they can be treated differently with respect to their driver's license for the simple reason that one has a license and one has not.

I commute every day through an urban residential area with light traffic and stop signs or lights on almost every block. When I come to a stop sign or light I slow down check for cars, if a car is coming I stop and wait otherwise I just keep going. Now I really don't care what you people who never break a rule think about that or what I deserve for doing that. All I want to know is if anyone has any information on the points on the license thing.

hey, i have to back him up here. i do exactly the same thing every day in my urban commuting.

if i come to a red light i stop and i look carefully and it is all clear of cars and pedestrains then i go through the intersection. the only person i'm potentially endangering is myself (which is why running a light in a car is TOTALLY different). on my commute i pretty much know which lights it's safe to do this and which aren't. as far as the safety factor, it is basically the same "danger" as making a left turn somewhere (for a left turn you also do not have the right of way, so if you screw up and don't see someone it's your fault just as if you were making a left turn)

driving a car is a big responsibility and breaking traffic laws can enganger others. on a bike this is usually not true. furthermore, most traffic signals are only necessary b/c of cars... and there are even some lights are auto-triggered that a bike cannot set off. also many lights are timed for the "normal" speed of cars and these are rarely set for bikes (how could it be as cyclists travel at different speeds?) and there are often MANY lights in a short distance.

so it is technically against the law, so fine if you get caught, you pay a fine. BUT it should not go against your MOTOR VEHICLE DRIVING record as you weren't operating a motor vehicle and if you don't need a driver's license to ride a bike so why should the punishment be different for a licensed and unlicensed driver?

additional note: Germany also does this stupid thing of counting bike violations against your auto driving record (i.e. points). a friend of mine got points from running a red light on his bicycle.

Originally posted by ZackJones
Are you saying you got a speeding ticket on a bicycle?!


I got pulled over for speeding in Arlington Cemetery,
no ticket just a warning. . .

Marty

My insurance agent told me that tickets on bicycles don't affect your car insurance. That may be so, but I don't think I want to go through the hassle to find out. Even so, I still dream of getting a speeding ticket riding my bike, just so I can frame the ticket.

Here is what I think the cop should have done: Puled you over and just said to you to stop next time or you might become a road pizza the next time you run a red light and then drove away. I myself have never run a red light but I have just slowed down at stop sign when there was not any other traffic. If you were a 12 year old kid how could he give you a ticket and take points off of your drivers license. I dont agrre with the ticket because a drivers license is for you to be certified to drive a motorized vehicle not a human powered one. WHATS NEXT, ARE WE GOING TO HAVE TO GET A BIKERS LICENSE?

What I want to know is this. Are you so close to losing your license via the points system that you're worried about a point or two?

Originally posted by ZackJones
Are you saying you got a speeding ticket on a bicycle?!

Yes, I was ticketed for doing something like 48mph in a 35mph zone coming down Highway 330 out of the San Bernardino Mountains back in '88. I'd legally passed a couple of slow moving cars (well, I did it on the passing zone sections) and didn't realize there was a CHP officer several cars back pacing me down the mountain. He apparently wasn't a fan of the cyclists who rode up and down Highway 330.

I also received a ticket for riding on a "limited access road" in '86. It was a 2mi scretch of the still not completed Highway 30 -- which at the time started at Colton Ave and dead-ended into 5th Street -- that I didn't realize had been designated a limited access road. It was a much safer route with its divided four lanes and 8' wide shoulders than the narrow two-lane Orange Street with no shoulders that ran parallel to it and was heavily traffic'd by semi-tractor rock haulers. The CHP officer was sitting under a tree on one of the ample shoulder parking areas just relaxing on the very low-traffic piece of roadway when he saw me. It was bizzare, particularly when he directed me over to Orange St. for my return trip. Oh yea, I was much safer there.

I do not run through stop lights or stop signs, but sometimes I do exceed the speed limit. For this, I carry an identification card with me, instead of my driver's license.

Originally posted by livngood
Yes, I was ticketed for doing something like 48mph in a 35mph zone coming down Highway 330 out of the San Bernardino Mountains back in '88. I'd legally passed a couple of slow moving cars and didn't realize there was a CHP officer several cars back. He apparently wasn't a fan of the cyclists who rode up and down Highway 330.........

So? this ticket is framed, Right?

Aside from the question of whether a given state's code allows applying the points system to cyclists who have driver's licenses, and whether that would be legal if it did, there's the question of "should it?"

Personally, I think it should. I think granting an operator's license not only endows a person with a set of privileges, but it should also raise the standards they're expected to adhere to when using the roads, no matter what vehicle they happen to be operating at the time.

This is just my opinion, of course, and I'm no lawyer, but that's not the angle I'm taking.

Rather, I think people with licenses *should* be held to a higher standard. Re-establishing the license to drive as a privilege that carrries real and non-negotiable responsibilities could only help reduce the amount of lawless and irresponsible use of all kinds of vehicles.

And for the record, I endorse the idea that cyclists older than, say, 16 should be licensed to operate bikes on roads. There would have to be distinctions (perhaps roads with speed limits 30mph or higher), and the laws that prohibit bikes on sidewalks in many business districts would also have to be made public, but I think the biggest element in the war between bikes and cars is that the rules are so poorly understood by everybody.

An adult riding against the traffic on a 4-lane highway should be subject to a citation for operating without a license. A child doing the same thing should be remanded to his parents for instruction. Kids shouldn't be riding in crowded downtown areas at all, and nobody should be riding on the sidewalk there.

Licensing, and more importantly the instruction and education that wouyld accompany it, could go a long way towards creating a less hostile road environment.

RichC

Originally posted by 1oldRoadie
So? this ticket is framed, Right?

I saw that comment in Zack's note and I guess I'd reply by asking why? I was speeding and got cited for it.

We topped out at 52mph coming down the backside of Neil's Gap near Dahlonega, GA, on Saturday where I also believe the speed limit is perhaps only 45.

This is perhaps my worst vice regardless of what I'm riding or driving. What was it Cruise said in "Top Gun"? I feel the need for speed? On the bright side, I've outgrown a nasty habit of taking motorcycles up to speeds on public roads that qualify you for the felony speeders club.

Originally posted by jatkins679
Whatever... Clear to you, not to me.


Oooooo.....somebodys got an attitude.

Originally posted by purple hayes
What I want to know is this. Are you so close to losing your license via the points system that you're worried about a point or two?

No I don't have any other points on my license, but I don't want my car insurance to go up or I don't want spend a day in traffic school.