Road Cycling - Could my saddle make my fingers numb?

Background: I recently purchased a Trek 1000 with flat handlebars. This is my first road bike and it's a dream to ride... except I'm putting so much pressure on my hands that my fingers are numb after less than 15 miles of riding.

I already have bar ends on it and they do help in terms of giving me another place to put my hands, but still the numbness is aggrivating!

But I think the problem may be my saddle, or something related to that. When I sit on it on my sit bones, I'm golden. Lots of power and it all feels really good. But I tend to roll off my sit bones and end up with my crotch on the forward part of the saddle if I don't a) stay aware of my saddle position and b) distribute quite a bit of my weight to my hands, which puts pressure on my wrists, which leads to the numbness.

So, I guess my question is: SHOULD I have to be putting pressure on my hands just to keep my sit bones where they're supposed to be? My DH keeps telling me to learn to ride with no hands, and I explain to him that I slide down the front of the saddle when I try it. It's like balancing canteloupes! Just doesn't happen.

And if the answer is NO, that I should be able to stay well positioned in the saddle, how do I fix this? Do I need to lower the seat? Would a less firm saddle help? I'm riding a Terry Liberator, which, contrary to the name, seems pretty unforgiving.

Or should I just bite the bullet and take it in and get my wonderful LBS guy to help me troubleshoot?

You say that you are sliding off of the saddle. That right there tells me that you have angled it to severely. Try moving the nose of the saddle up till its pretty much level and I think you will find that solves that problem. Its just a matter of minor adjustments till you find the right position for yourself.
As to the hand numbness, that might not be related to the way you sit. I have the same problem with my fingers. The way I fix it is to periodically change hand positions.
Hope this helps

It seems your saddle is angled to low thus you have to hold yourself up all the time.

Try leveling the seat.

I had nearly the same problem all of last year on my new road bike. I tipped the nose of the saddle up just a bit this year - and my problems are GONE! Now, the bulk of my weight is on my butt, not my hands.

I can't believe that I rode that way all last year. Give it a shot!

:)

First, road bikes have drop bars, not flat. What you have would be more accurately a hybrid or "comfort" bike--although is doesn't sound like it is that comfortable for you.

I agree with the other posts, sounds like you may have the saddle tilted down instead of level. That puts a lot of pressure on your hands. Also, the flat bars will contribute to this since they are not very ergonomically efficient for lengthy road riding.

I would strongly suggest that you convert it to road bars and level your seat.

Dave

why do you have flat handlebars?

Originally posted by KennethToronto
why do you have flat handlebars?

Some people like the usually more upright position on flat bars.

As for the hand numbness, after checking your saddle angle you might check your reach too. My stem was too long, stretching me out and putting a lot of pressure on my hands. I got a shorter stem and all problems went away. Now if I could just find a saddle that isn't like sitting on a bed of nails... :)

i would tend to agree with the reach theory over the angled saddle theory. i too had the same problem when i was using the 100mm stem that came with my bike. my hands were killing me, and i kept scooting forward on the seat to try to get more comfortable, to the point where i was killing my butt by sitting on the nose of the seat. I switched to an 80mm stem, moved my seat as far forward as possible, and all my probs went away, and I was amazed at how what seemed like such an ill fitting bike before now fit like a glove.

the most likely solution to your problem will be BOTH to get a shorter stem, and to move your saddle to the forwardmost position. you should be vastly more comfortable after you do this. think about it - if your body seems to naturall want to scoot forward, don't you think it's trying to tell you something??

another thing to do to make sure you are fit well is to get on the bike as if you're riding, and have a mirror next to you to look at, or a partner to watch your form on the bike. your arms and torso should make a perfect pyramid shape (or close to it, depending on how you like to ride), and there should be a noticeable bend in your arms. from the way you described your situation, it would sound like currently your arms are fully extended with no bend in the elbow.

oh yeah, and finally:


Originally posted by hgalindo
Or should I just bite the bullet and take it in and get my wonderful LBS guy to help me troubleshoot?

YES!!!! That's what they're there for!!! In fact I'm a little perplexed as to why you weren't properly fitted at your LBS in the first place. A good fitter would have spotted your problem right away.

Originally posted by hayneda
First, road bikes have drop bars, not flat. What you have would be more accurately a hybrid or "comfort" bike--although is doesn't sound like it is that comfortable for you.

I agree with the other posts, sounds like you may have the saddle tilted down instead of level. That puts a lot of pressure on your hands. Also, the flat bars will contribute to this since they are not very ergonomically efficient for lengthy road riding.

I would strongly suggest that you convert it to road bars and level your seat.

Dave

The trek 1000 currently comes with a flat bar option. and no, it's still a road bike.... it's a complete sora groupset. and skinny tires too. the only diff between this and the regular 1000 is the handlebar and shifters :)

Flat bars are a good option for people with back problems, or poor back flexibility.... which is characteristic of brand new riders. as you become more seasoned of a rider, your back flexibility begins to increase, and drop bars become a very practical consideration

deliriou5 - if you moved your seat all the way forward - what happended to your neutral knee position? I would imaging that would have pushed it forward. Or is that not as much of a concern as I am led to believe?

Flat bars are at exactly the same height as the horizontal part of drop bars. There is no benefit for unflexible backs - in fact, the loss of genuinely different positions makes them harder on backs. They are put on there to sell bikes to people new to bikes. Ride them for a while, find out drops are more comfortable, wear out the sora components - should take less than one full season - then get a new bike that fits.



Originally posted by deliriou5
The trek 1000 currently comes with a flat bar option. and no, it's still a road bike.... it's a complete sora groupset. and skinny tires too. the only diff between this and the regular 1000 is the handlebar and shifters :)

Flat bars are a good option for people with back problems, or poor back flexibility.... which is characteristic of brand new riders. as you become more seasoned of a rider, your back flexibility begins to increase, and drop bars become a very practical consideration

Pressure on the wrists, and sliding forward on the saddle is indicative of a badly setup bike. I cant say what is wrong with it.
I would recomend analysing your riding position and setting yourself up properly. You may need some help to do that.
First, set your pedal to saddle relationship. The rule of thumb is to get the centre of your knee joint vertically over the pedal spinde. You can move your saddle up and down, fore/aft to place it where your butt wants to sit. If you want to sit further forward, move your saddle there. The saddle should be horizontal, not tilted.
Next set your saddle to bar relationship, the bar's height and reach. This is entirely a personal matter, but you should aim for relaxed wrist, shoulders, and a flat back at whatever angle you like.
Flat bars can be ridden in a high or low position, it is up to the rider how to use them. Most cx style MTB riders use flat bars 6" below the saddle. Typically, a touring/fitness rider would place the bars 1-3" below the saddle.

It is worth reading:
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

I had the same problem lat time, it took only a few days of riding that way to make me try to change the situation. It's nothing more than your saddle being tilted a bit too low. Tilt it up a little and your problems will be settled. I guess the rest of them have told you what you should do. Have you done that yet?

Originally posted by CycleNaut
Flat bars are at exactly the same height as the horizontal part of drop bars. There is no benefit for unflexible backs - in fact, the loss of genuinely different positions makes them harder on backs. They are put on there to sell bikes to people new to bikes. Ride them for a while, find out drops are more comfortable, wear out the sora components - should take less than one full season - then get a new bike that fits.

Yep. If he doesn't want to admit to a hybrid, then maybe call it a "city bike."

Flat bars are okay for a knock around bike; and can be an asset for curb hopping, etc. But for any real road riding, drop bars are a great asset. Unfortuantely, most bike manufacturers equip new bikes with forks & stem combinations that result in the bars being way too low. Especially for new riders, tops fo the bars should be close to the height of the seat, once it is adjusted. This results in a much more comfortable position on the tops and on the hoods. And makes use of the drops much more appealing for dealing with headwinds. I encourage anyone wanting to ride more than a few miles per outing to adopt drop bars.

If one finds that they never ride in the drops, they should consider raising their bars. Unfortunately, it usually takes a new stem to do that.

Dave

Originally posted by hayneda
Yep. If he doesn't want to admit to a hybrid, then maybe call it a "city bike."


Check out the gearing (race double or road triple) and the tyre clearance (25mm). That is no hybrid or city bike, but as the man says, a road bike with flat bars.

I swear, it's a road bike! Granted, it's the cheapest road bike Trek makes, but for my ambitions, it'll be plenty. I mostly ride for fitness, but do a few charity rides each year just for the challenge and free bananas. Nothing very serious at all, but I wanted to not be SO disadvantaged by the weight and slowness of a hybrid. Trust me though, it's a road bike... with flat handlebars. Road bars were just a little too much of a leap for me. I'll upgrade one of these days if I really feel compelled to.

I'll see about tilting the seat up a little. That might do it for me. My LBS DID fit me thoroughly... but the pressure on my wrists was something he couldn't have known about, and I didn't mention it because I thought it was something particular to road bikes that I'd just have to get used to. But I've ridden for a while now and I obviously didn't know what the hell I was thinking.

Thanks for the advice everyone. My carpal tunnels thank you, too.

FYI, because my poor bike has its feelings hurt in all this questioning if its roadliness: Trek 1000 (http://www.trekbikes.com/bikes/2003/road/1000.jsp)

Hdalindo,

Whether your bike is a "road" bike or not is really symmantics. The defining features of which are skinny tires and dropped bars. I know the type of bike you are talking about though. Several of the big manufacturers have taken to offering a flat bar option in hopes of appealing to the new rider crowd that are oftimes put off by road bars. In the end, I think it a disservice to developing new road riders.

On the things that causes your wrists and forearms to hurt on longer rides is the orientation of your hands on flat bars--straight out in front of you with your palms flat and facing downward, and usually with a little twist to the outside. This is not a natural position for most people.

Stand up and bend over slightly at the hips. Now reach forward with both hands as if to shake someones hands. That is the more natural position for most of us. Hands oriented forward instead of crossways, with a slight downward angle--this is very closely approximated when riding on the hoods.

Good luck,
Dave

Let your arms hang to your side while standing. Notice the position of your hands. Compare that to your hand position while riding flat bars. Notice hand position while on the brake hoods or in the drops of a road handlebar. Read a while ago that there are something like 30 different hand positions on a drop bar.

You can try bar ends for the flat bar to get that "natural" hand position.

Ted

For a more neutral "wrist-set" you may want to check out some bar extensions like
http://www.roadbikereview.com/Handlebars/Cinelli,Spinaci,Clip,on/PRD_28683_2498crx.aspx

These have been made illegal for racing use, so can be had cheaply if you look.
Do check that they fit your bar diameter.

Ah, so NOW it's semantics, huh? :-)

Seriously, thanks for the advice. Maybe I'll end up with road bars sooner than I thought. I wonder how expensive an upgrade that is... <heather wanders off to figure out how much $$ she can get out of DH if it comes to that>

But hopefully a new stem and/or saddle adjustment will fix my woes for now, because I'm otherwise VERY happy with my new bike.

BTW, I do have bar ends, but they shift if I put my weight on them, so I at least have my palm down on the bar, which puts a LOT of pressure on my palm. It does help to have the extra option, but I've found that it just doesn't fix the problem. That's what really leads me to believe the stem theory and possibly the saddle theory are more the problem than the handlebar. I think putting as much weight as I'm putting on my hands, even in a neutral position, would still cause problems.

You don't mention whether you are using gloves or not.

Getting gel-padded gloves (Pearl Izumi) made a big difference for me. But it does sound like you've got some fit problems too, so you might want to try fixing those first.

i ride barehanded with no problems. :D. i'm trying to be an anti-bike snob as much as i can, but i'm falling, piece by piece

Yeah, I wear gloves. Just plain jane ones without gel or anything. Sweat wipers, basically. :-)

Bare handed is fine till you scrape the pavement. With your hands out of action for a few weeks, you get to find out who your real friends are.

(ps those bar extensions are not bar-ends, but Spinnaci mini aero-bars)

First, as someone already mentioned your saddle needs to be at least level, perhaps even tilted nose up just a touch. It depends to a great extent on the shape. For most saddles level is perfect, but when I ride my Brooks Team Pro I have to tilt the nose up VERY slightly because the rear tilts up very slightly. Tilting the nose up makes a level platform for the sit bones.

Second, my experience has been the opposite of Deleriou5. I have run the gamut from short stem/reach to long. Someone on BF mentioned the wrenchscience.com fit calculator. The 72 cm reach (center of seat tube to center of handlebar) it recommened seemed excessive though I do have longish arms/torso for my height. When I tried it I finally found consistent relief of hand numbness. Even one cm shorter feels like I am putting a lot of weight on my hands. It's not really weight it's just force. If I move my saddle back I find relief. You have to figure out what is right for you. The wrenchscience.com fit suggestion works for me, even the lower saddle position it recommended. I find I need sufficient reach to comfortably rest the forward part of my palms, just below the fingers, on the bar without feeling like I am "pushing' on the bar. I don't always ride in this position, but if I can comfortably assume it I take weight off my hands for a rest.

Third, I have read more than one article discounting the "neutral" knee position or KOPS (knee over pedal system). Riders are always moving forward and back on their saddle.

Fourth, I used to think a straight bar would be more comfortable. If you use a road bar, riding on the tops is the same as a straight bar plus you have many other hand position options. Don't assume that a straight bar is more comfortable.

Thanks for your thoughtful post, RainmanP...

I've committed to going to see my bike guy tomorrow. I'll definitely report what he says. He knows his stuff, so I have faith that we can get this fixed to my satisfaction.

You mention the saddle shape, and that IS one thing I noticed after I went and looked at its "levelness"... while the nose is level, the saddle does have a rise in tail, which is probably what's causing me to roll off my sit bones.

I understand what you're saying about the flat vs. road bars, though my husband rode a Trek 1000 with road bars (ohh, the pretty cherry red one that didn't come with flat bars. Maybe I should have taken that as a sign to get the road bars.) and felt that even riding the tops was noticeably lower than where they put the flat bar on these. But I'm sure that's adjustable.

Interesting about the neutral knee thing. I'll have to look that up and do some research myself. All I know is that I can tell a HUGE difference in my power when I move back on my saddle to where I should be (after sliding down to the nose and not noticing for a while). It all just comes into perfect alignment when I'm in the saddle properly. Only my palms and wrists complain. And maybe the road. Cuz of the trail of fire left in my wake... :D

From experience I can say that it is probably both issues! I too use a Straight Bar and have had numbness problems. Mine came when I flipped my steam to get more power in my stroke. That put me too far forward and low!! I ended up sitting on my pubic synthasis and after only a few rides I was in agony!!

What worked for me was a visit to the LBS and getting set up with the "fit kit" steam and peddle modules. I now have my sadle in the right position and I have a steam that seems to suit my riding style better. I went to the LBS during the week in the evening (winter too) when they were slow and they played with the "fit kit" with me and didn't charge me (of course I did buy a new stem from them).

Good luck

Hmm, just did the fit test wrenchscience.com and if that is correct, my stem is almost 3 cm too long. But it also said my saddle should be a bit lower, which I'm not sure I agree with.

Oh well, I guess we'll see tomorrow! :confused:

A few more thoughts. You might set an appointment and take the bike in to properly set up on the bike at your LBS.

As for flat bars, the Cane Creek Ergo bar ends are nice if you haven't seen them. They offer a comfortable alternate hand position. I also recommend good gloves like the Pearl Izumi Gel Lites and good, cushioned grips (Specialized Body Geometry are superb). This will cut down potential for numbness on flat bars.

New riders tend to "death grip" the bar as well. Be careful of that. Also, let your elbows bend and relax your arms while you ride. Change hand positions frequently and from time to time sit up and stretch out your arms/hands to relax them. After a while, you will likely notice the numbness disappearing as you ride. Also, try not to bend your wrists, but keep them straight, otherwise carpel tunnel symptoms will come into play. Same issues here as cts...pinched wrist nerves will cause numbness.

I've only been riding drop bars for 2 years, but I will say that once you get used to them, they are much more comfortable than flat bars (which I had on a hybrid) as they do offer you more positions.

Also, if you keep the flat bars, another consideration would be to go to a "riser bar". It, like a shorter stem, will bring the grips and shifters closer to you.

No one mentioned this, but when adjusting the saddle, use a level positioned on the saddle from nose to rear. It helps. Good luck!

I had the same problem -- numbness in my hands when my wrists were cocked on the lower drops. I installed aero bars, and that solved the problem. Now most of the weight is on my forearms, and my wrists are straight with almost no weight on them.

When I want advice on comfort, I listen to cycle tourists. These guys/gals are on thier bikes all day for days or weeks, hills (mountains), rain, etc... This, in general isn't the LBS market. How many of you have been "fitted" based on toptube standover clearance?

Look at how loaded touring bikes are setup. Visit sites like Adventure Cycling, Rivendell, Heron, Oswalt, Bruce Gordon...you'll notice they aren't using straight bars, KOP isn't promoted, and HB is level or slightly below saddle.

I know there a lot of tourers using straight bars, and are probably very comfortable. But, in general, a touring bike will have drop bars. And going to drop bars solved my numb hand problem.

My Jamis Coda has a straight bar, and my hands go numb after 15 miles. Barends helped. The conversion to drops would have cost a couple hundred dollars. Might do it eventually, but my Heron Touring is my comfort bike.

Well, I went and got a multitool last night and played with the seat level. I think I've got the nose a notch too high, but the difference was significant. No longer had to hold myself up on the seat. Yay!

Then, just to see what would happen, I rotated my bar ends (which are the longer kind) to point straight out in front of the handle bars. Then I rested my forearms on the handlebar and just held on to the upper part of the bar end, which curves in a bit and is almost exactly a neutral wrist position. So, it's basically a wide aerobar type of configuration. Woo! Comfy, though more padding where my arm rests on the handlebar would be nice, like a true aero bar. I'm sure it looks goofy, but what it does do is give me a sense of what it would be like to ride on the hoods or in the drops. It's much more comfortable than I would have thought.

Plus, the saddle adjustment allows me to use my abs more (thank god for Pilates) for balance and stuff.

Anyway, I'm gonna hold off on the trip to the bike shop for a week to see how this setup holds up over a 15 mile ride. It may not be perfect, but if it will get me through this season (and I can get DH to give me a road bar installation for christmas ;) ) then I'll be happy.

And perhaps I will look into finding some better gloves. After losing 65 lbs since I bought them, they're loose and a little ratty.

I'm glad you're getting more comfortable on your bike. Losing 65 lbs, that's great!

A good pair of cycling gloves will help.

Enjoy your ride.:beer: