Training & Nutrition - Protein

As some of you may know, I have recommended mixed proteins of just taking one. What I mean by that is why just take whey or Soy when you can take one with Whey protein and Micellar casein and Egg proteins together. I found an interesting article in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition, that goes into this. I posted this in training and Nutrition, but read about guys that can't weight. If you’re having trouble gaining muscle and size, the article also goes into the amount of protein you may need.

One caveat, it is a bit long, but it is free and worth the time to read in my opinion.

Go to:

http://www.sportsnutritionsociety.org/site/journal/journal1.php?journal_id=21&name=Volume%203(1),%202006


and read the article: . Contemporary issues in protein requirements and consumption for resistance trained athletes.

Univega, good read...thanks for posting.

Jesus, if you're a guy and taking soy anything, I feel very sorry for you.

Aiki alerted me to possible issues with soy protein a long time ago on a totally different internet forum. At first I thought he was a loon (and I sort of still do) but the more I read the more I agreed. There is an overriding assumption that soy is great for all people in all quantities. Healthy lean protein right. Not so much.

Aiki can provide more links that I - at least I think so.
Just do a google search of 'soy protein estrogen' and you might think twice about it.

Aiki alerted me to possible issues with soy protein a long time ago on a totally different internet forum. At first I thought he was a loon (and I sort of still do) but the more I read the more I agreed. There is an overriding assumption that soy is great for all people in all quantities. Healthy lean protein right. Not so much.

Aiki can provide more links that I - at least I think so.
Just do a google search of 'soy protein estrogen' and you might think twice about it.

Personally, I agree with you. I choose NOT to drink soy protein. I have read articles extolling its virtues and articles calling it “evil”.

I drink a mixed protein. One that almost everyone knows is MetRx. I drank it for years. I prefer the taste and constancy of ProPeptide. (BTW: I have no financial interest in the company. Buy what tastes good to you.) It is a mixed protein consisting of Whey protein, (un-denatured), Micellar casein and Egg proteins. If you go to the Training & Nutrition posts a lot of guys drink soy, many drink whey. Few mention mixed protein.

The other reason I thought the article was good is it gets into muscle breakdown and protein requirements. Some studies put it as high 2.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight. My guess is the guys who ride and lift weights are counting. Those that complain they can’t gain weight probably need more food and may benefit from a quality protein supplement.

Anyway, I thought it was a good article and wanted to share it with you guys. Especially since this site let you read the journals for free.

Some studies put it as high 2.2 grams of protein per kg of body weight.

... or 1 gram per pound of body weight, for those of us who are unitarily challenged.

So a 320 lb guy should take 320 grams of protein a day? That sounds like too much.

Matty in Brooklyn

Aiki alerted me to possible issues with soy protein a long time ago on a totally different internet forum. At first I thought he was a loon (and I sort of still do) but the more I read the more I agreed. There is an overriding assumption that soy is great for all people in all quantities. Healthy lean protein right. Not so much.

Aiki can provide more links that I - at least I think so.
Just do a google search of 'soy protein estrogen' and you might think twice about it.

Soy is a good source of lysine, which can be difficult to obtain from other proteins. The term, "protein" is too general, you need to provide your body with a protein mix that has all 20 amino acids, so just eating whey or eggs won't help.

There's a lot of crap about soy on the internet, but you cannot argue with facts: soy has been prevalent in Asian diets for hundreds of years, and asians have lower BMIs, lower incidence of certain cancers, and longer lifespans than the average in the west. For example, breast, colon, and prostate cancers are rare in Japan. There are some questions about how soy is prepared in certain foods, but a lot of anti-soy is from meat marketing boards.

As you can see in a lot of those sports nutrition studies, the science is usually not very good, and unfortunately connected to companies selling something. A lot is controversial, involves too small of a cohort, and doesn't control for age. All of those exercise measures vary widely with age.

Generally speaking, nothing still beats a balanced diet, but for racers, it's high carbs before and during, protein after. 1 gram/pound/day is about right for an active person. Tour racers eat sugary breakfasts, and huge protein-filled dinners.

well... since i'm a food scientist for a dairy company, and perform whey protein research... i'll say whey proteins are far superior to anything else, with casein-type proteins a close second.

so keep consuming this stuff, and i'll never be out of a job!

There's a lot of crap about soy on the internet, but you cannot argue with facts: soy has been prevalent in Asian diets for hundreds of years, and asians have lower BMIs, lower incidence of certain cancers, and longer lifespans than the average in the west.

They are also shorter and have trouble growing facial hair. Be careful attributing the effects of one type of food to an entire race of people. There are too many variables to know if any one factor(such as soy consumption) creates the lower BMI, incidence of cancer, and lifespans in over a billion people. They also have very little saturated fat in their diet. They also consume a lot of fish and rice. They also don't have the murder rate or violent crime rate that is so prevalent in the west(ie. less stress). Who is to say which of these and the thousands of other variables results in better health for this particular population?

There is a reason that women take soy(estrogen) supplements to control the hot flashes of menopause. If I were a man, there is no way I would consume large quantities of soy. In fact, even in research in rodents we are moving away from soy based diets since we know the estrogen in soy can confound results.

Soy may in fact be good for you in many ways, but don't think that if a little of something is good, then a lot of something must be better. Everything in moderation.

1 gram/pound/day is about right for an active person

!!! Jeezus, I have not been consuming even CLOSE to enough protein :( I probably take in about 80 grams per day leaving me about 60% short. I've been trying to do better recently, eating more lean ground beef, more whey protein bars, etc etc. But looks like I've got to ramp it up quite dramatically. Seems like to eat 200 grams of protein, I'll have to eat nothing but eggs and tuna.

They are also shorter and have trouble growing facial hair. Be careful attributing the effects of one type of food to an entire race of people.

Soy may in fact be good for you in many ways, but don't think that if a little of something is good, then a lot of something must be better. Everything in moderation.

Balanced diet is always best.

Sorry, but there have been many comparative studies done on asians and asian-americans to distinguish genetics and diet. Size (they are not shorter, they are smaller), and facial hair are genetic. Asians who live in the west and adopt western diets go right to the same problems as westerners, at the same incidence.
Many western vegetarians on high-soy diets for >20 years score better in all aspects of health. There is quite a lot of evidence that the whole estrogen-soy concern is not valid. Soy contains estrogen-like compounds, but humans can metabolize these very quickly, unlike mice. There is little correlation on metabolism and nutrition between mouse or rat models and humans.

You cannot depend on any one source of protein, especially supplements made of whey or eggs.

A high fish diet is beneficial, but the world can no longer support this type of diet, as most of the fish are gone.

There is little correlation on metabolism and nutrition between mouse or rat models and humans.

You're kidding right?

!!! Jeezus, I have not been consuming even CLOSE to enough protein :( I probably take in about 80 grams per day leaving me about 60% short. I've been trying to do better recently, eating more lean ground beef, more whey protein bars, etc etc. But looks like I've got to ramp it up quite dramatically. Seems like to eat 200 grams of protein, I'll have to eat nothing but eggs and tuna.

Avoid tuna, most tuna has mercury levels that can easily be toxic with daily consumption, and that's not disputed. It's now not advised for pregnant women.

Again, the trick is not to supplement with something like eggs, but to make active decisions in everything you eat to bring up the protein levels.
i.e breakfast: not cereal and milk, try a small meat and cheese sandwich.

Once your protein intake levels are up, you will be surprised on how you will crave less food between meals.

You're kidding right?

No, I'm not. Metabolism in small animal models rarely correlates to humans, which is why drugs are always tested in humans before approval, not just animal models. Most compounds that work well in mice don't work at all in humans. They have an entire spectrum of enzymes humans don't produce in the liver, and their overall metabolic rate is much higher, plus, they only live 2-4 years, so long term affects cannot be known.

There is even controversy whether extreme caloric restriction, which can increase the life of a mouse 2X, is really beneficial to humans.

In fact, there are correlation problems with races across the earth. Caucasians are typically tested for drug metabolism, but those same effective drugs may not work in africans or Asians, or even between men and women, and vice versa.

So, if some fitness guru writes a book, the methods employed may have worked for him, but may be totally useless to another person, which is why there is so much pseudo-science diet crap out there. It's far more complex than these books let on. One has to gauge their personal response to diet, as age, genetics and gender can matter more than any method.

What about lactose intolerant individuals...

I know pure whey protein isolate has very little lactose but even items with this form upset my tummy...

I use soy with no problems..

Any suggestions for us that are lactase lacking...

Thanks for the suggestions DocRay. I'll start working more protein into my meals. One problem seems to be that the cheapest forms of protein also seem to have high levels of fat. I'll figure it out though.


What about lactose intolerant individuals...

I know pure whey protein isolate has very little lactose but even items with this form upset my tummy...

I use soy with no problems..

Any suggestions for us that are lactase lacking...

I'm sort of lactose intolerant as well, but it's strange...sometimes the protein bars and milk(ice cream always) upset my stomach, but sometimes I take them just fine. If my stomach gets very upset, do I lose the benefit of all the protein? ie, does it all get *ahem* flushed out of the system?

What about lactose intolerant individuals...

I know pure whey protein isolate has very little lactose but even items with this form upset my tummy...

I use soy with no problems..

Any suggestions for us that are lactase lacking...

That's another issue, if one consumes large mounts of whey and egg protein, they may very likely develop an allergy to that protein. Allergies can develop at any time in life, and intestinal allergies can give you cramps.

There are lactase enzyme pills, these just supplement the enzyme that is lacking in some people. Another good example of how foods don't work the same on different people due to genetics.

I'm sort of lactose intolerant as well, but it's strange...sometimes the protein bars and milk(ice cream always) upset my stomach, but sometimes I take them just fine. If my stomach gets very upset, do I lose the benefit of all the protein? ie, does it all get *ahem* flushed out of the system?

The "flush" mainly removes useful bacteria from the gut, which can affect how you digest for days. So, you want to avoid this. You can supplement with pro-biotic cultures to aid in digestion. These are typically live yogurt culture of bfido or acidophilus bacteria, these colonize the gut and aid digestion, while competing out bad bacteria that can release toxins.

Most of poop is in fact bacteria and dead cells removed from the gut.

What about lactose intolerant individuals...

I know pure whey protein isolate has very little lactose but even items with this form upset my tummy...

I use soy with no problems..

Any suggestions for us that are lactase lacking...

Most of the better proteins have much if not all the lactose removed. If you buy a protein powder that upsets you stomach, try a different brand. I can not drink a glass of milk without feeling the effects. However there are a number of proteins powders I can take with zero upset. MetRx was one. Propeptide was another : http://propeptide.com/products/propeptide.html.

I have also found that straight whey upset my stomach more than a mix of proteins. Has anyone else noticed that?

!!! Jeezus, I have not been consuming even CLOSE to enough protein :( I probably take in about 80 grams per day leaving me about 60% short. I've been trying to do better recently, eating more lean ground beef, more whey protein bars, etc etc. But looks like I've got to ramp it up quite dramatically. Seems like to eat 200 grams of protein, I'll have to eat nothing but eggs and tuna.

To make it easier I eat numerous times a day. Take today for example.

I get up at 4 am and eat a little some before I hit the gym.

6:30 After the workout, a protein and carb shake (fruit added).

9:30 Turkey breast on whole wheat. Side salad (mixed veggies) with dressing

12:30: Ground beef with stir fried vegetables

3:30 Yogurt

7 pm: Lean Grilled Turkey sausages with roasted peppers. Fruit for dessert

If I was working out really hard and cycling I may even have a night shake. However the night shake would most likely be a slow protein like Micellar casein. The article describes why it is a slow protein.

Eating like this I can usually easily get one gram of protein per pound of body weight
(as ElJamoquio pointed out). Doing this I went from a skinny 5’11” and 130 pounds
To my current weight of 175. BTW: I stayed around the same % Body fat

So a 320 lb guy should take 320 grams of protein a day? That sounds like too much.

Matty in Brooklyn

The way I've seen it is to take in 1 gram per pound of the weight you want to be.

But, whenever I eat a lot of protein, my hunger usually goes away, so I wouldn't be surprised if a 320 lb guy lost weight if he very judiciously chose his protein sources.

If I recall correctly (and I very well may not) a gram of protein only has about 4 calories; so 320 grams would be 'only' 1280 calories. Barring completely inactive people, a 320 lb guy would probably lose weight if he was taking in 3000 calories per day - so there's still room to play with.

Ok guys... my protein has some kind of bovine by-product in it. Should I be afraid?

Ok guys... my protein has some kind of bovine by-product in it. Should I be afraid?

no, just chase it with warm chicken and pork sushi.

Honestly..
"Bovine Serum Albumin: 6-8%"

Why does my protein have bovine serum in it...

"Bovine serum albumin, Bovine Albumin, BSA: A serum albumin protein that can be used as a diluent or a blocking agent in numerous applications including ELISAs (Enzyme-Linked Immunosorbent Assay), blots and immunohistochemistry. It is also used as a nutrient in cell and microbial culture. In restriction digests, BSA is used to stabilize some enzymes during digestion of DNA and to prevent adhesion of the enzyme to reaction tubes and other vessels. This protein does not affect other enzymes that do not need it for stabilization. BSA is used because of its stability, its lack of effect in many biochemical reactions, and its low cost since it is readily available in large quantities as it is purified from bovine blood, a byproduct of the beef industry."

Wikipedia.

My theory, that it came from cow eggs, was wrong.

Honestly..
"Bovine Serum Albumin: 6-8%"

Why does my protein have bovine serum in it...

How does it taste? Pretty miserable? I remember a product called Hot Stuff I tried years back. I had a tone of weird stuff, all of very questionable use. So now I read the labels before I buy. Life is too short to drink a miserable tasting protein. There are good tasting ones out there.

To answer your question directly I found this on the T-Nation site:

"It’s spray-dried plasma from cow's blood. Really. Essentially, they take the blood of a cow, remove platelets, red blood cells, white blood cells, etc., and are left with water and most everything else that’s dissolved in it like certain growth factors (peptides), electrolytes, albumin and enzymes.

Anyone who’s ever been broke while in school is probably familiar with the process of selling their plasma for money. Well, think of this as the same thing except these are cows that are slaughtered and then the blood is drained in a rather precise manner.

Also, anyone who’s ever worked in a biotechnology or even biochemistry lab will probably be familiar with at least some products derived from bovine plasma or perhaps bovine serum albumin. I can still remember the smell of the latter. It’s the same smell I’ve come across at a packing plant for beef, and the same smell you'll encounter if you smell a bloody beef pattie.

My point of telling you that is because I'd tried one of these products back when visiting a friend of mine in California. When I smelled the product, it seemed as though they did a good job at masking it, so I figured that perhaps it would taste fine. Wrong! It had the most disgusting aftertaste you can imagine.

Now, as far as the claims being made that this plasma has great anabolic effects in humans, think again. It’s highly unlikely that the growth factors contained within these products ever make it into systemic circulation before being destroyed in the GI tract. For example, IGF-1 isn't orally bioavailable to any appreciable extent.

Of interesting note, however, is the fact that in the only study I found which contradicted those findings, it was noted that IGF-1 could significantly increase the risk for cancer of the GI. In other words, even though I’m certain IGF-1 doesn’t make it in to systemic circulation to any significant extent after oral administration (based upon both data and taught principles), even if it did, that route of administration isn’t something you’d want to take.

So, in summary, what you have with spray dried plasma products is a horribly tasting whey protein supplement that’s no more effective than the next brand."

It referes you to these references:

Juskevich JC, Guyer CG. "Bovine growth hormone: human food safety evaluation." Science. 1990 Aug 24;249(4971):875-84.
Xian CJ, Shoubridge CA, Read LC. "Degradation of IGF-I in the adult rat gastrointestinal tract is limited by a specific antiserum or the dietary protein casein." J Endocrinol. 1995 Aug;146(2):215-25.

To be honest, it's the best tasting protein out there, no chauky taste, no milky thick texture, it ends up tasting like a watered down chocolate drink with a very watery texture. They're from the same company that makes protein so dissolvable you can dunk 15 grams into a cup of water and have it be crystal clear.

BTW: For those that read the article, what did you think of the section on protein timing?

I will have to make an effort to get closer to the optimum time and see if I can tell the difference.

Well, I made it to 200g yesterday. I had three 1/4 lb hamburgers I made w/cheese & buns for lunch & afternoon snack, 2 large omelet(ham & cheese) sandwiches for dinner, 2 cups steel cut oats(breakfast, 1/2 cup unprepared), 3 apples, 25 mini carrots, 6 twizzlers & a bunch of pringles somewhere in between.

While it's under my normal caloric intake for the day, I felt pretty bloated at the end of the day, so there is definitely something to the appetite suppression.

Honestly..
"Bovine Serum Albumin: 6-8%"

Why does my protein have bovine serum in it...

BSA is a good source of pure protein, and a major component of cow's blood from slaughterhouses.
It's likely tasteless when purified, but it may give you the "hunger" and cause you to run around in the full moon chasing cows in a black cape.

You think that's gross, Jello is pure protein, but you don't want to know how they get it.

BSA is a much better source of protein than whey. All proteins are digested into their component amino acids, then these amino acids are used as the bricks to build new proteins, as in muscle proteins. But not all protein has all 20 amino acids, and sources like whey have no lysine. Whey is used in GNC-like products because it is the cheapest source of protein, but it is not a complete protein. So if you use whey as a major protein source, you can actually be in amino acid starvation because your body will have to break down other proteins, or not synthesize new proteins due to the lack of the amino acids. Protein in the diet should come from many sources, and meats or soy are the really only good sources of lysine.

Supplements are not controlled, regulated or even tested. Nothing beats real food.

BSA is a good source of pure protein, and a major component of cow's blood from slaughterhouses.
It's likely tasteless when purified, but it may give you the "hunger" and cause you to run around in the full moon chasing cows in a black cape.

You think that's gross, Jello is pure protein, but you don't want to know how they get it.

BSA is a much better source of protein than whey. All proteins are digested into their component amino acids, then these amino acids are used as the bricks to build new proteins, as in muscle proteins. But not all protein has all 20 amino acids, and sources like whey have no lysine. Whey is used in GNC-like products because it is the cheapest source of protein, but it is not a complete protein. So if you use whey as a major protein source, you can actually be in amino acid starvation because your body will have to break down other proteins, or not synthesize new proteins due to the lack of the amino acids. Protein in the diet should come from many sources, and meats or soy are the really only good sources of lysine.

Supplements are not controlled, regulated or even tested. Nothing beats real food.

I don't know where you're getting facts from, but your statements are not entirely true. Whey proteins do have lys at respectable levels, and serum albumins are one of the proteins in whey, not at high level, but they're there. A WPC has 18 of the 20 amino acids, and when you combine that with casein proteins, you do have a complete amino acid profile. There are six major proteins produced by bovine mammary glands, and several other proteins present, too. Hence the avantage of good old fashioned milk mixed with WPC. This subject is much, much more complicated than most believe it is...

I don't know where you're getting facts from, but your statements are not entirely true. Whey proteins do have lys at respectable levels, and serum albumins are one of the proteins in whey, not at high level, but they're there. A WPC has 18 of the 20 amino acids, and when you combine that with casein proteins, you do have a complete amino acid profile. There are six major proteins produced by bovine mammary glands, and several other proteins present, too. Hence the avantage of good old fashioned milk mixed with WPC. This subject is much, much more complicated than most believe it is...

That mix will provide all 20 amino acids, but some at very low abundance. While it is complete, you cannot survive on this. Then there's the issue of fat content.

We need to bring back soylent green.

http://www.moviebazaar.de/filmsoyl.jpg

Well, I made it to 200g yesterday. I had three 1/4 lb hamburgers I made w/cheese & buns for lunch & afternoon snack, 2 large omelet(ham & cheese) sandwiches for dinner, 2 cups steel cut oats(breakfast, 1/2 cup unprepared), 3 apples, 25 mini carrots, 6 twizzlers & a bunch of pringles somewhere in between.

While it's under my normal caloric intake for the day, I felt pretty bloated at the end of the day, so there is definitely something to the appetite suppression.

You didn't say if it was low fat-lean meat/cheese/chips...that's about 127 grams of fat if not. Protein good, that much fat might not be great.

HAHAHA... soylent green, nice!

I think you could survive on whey proteins only, but thats not my specialty. I would never try it... but it does contain all the essential amino acids at levels above recommended intake, if you comsume the serving of 100g of powder per day. And the fat content is high compared to purfied whey isolate, but at less than 5g of fat per 85g of protein... I think thats acceptable for a much cheaper whey product (WPI is $$$$$ to produce).

Plus to toot our industries horn a little, whey proteins have the highest biological value of any protein known. Geez I sound like a salesman...

You didn't say if it was low fat-lean meat/cheese/chips...that's about 127 grams of fat if not. Protein good, that much fat might not be great.

I know... :( All of the cheapest forms of protein seem to also have the highest amount of fat. The only thing lean in all of that was the turkey inside the omelet. I still went under my normal caloric intake for the day, since it ended up being very low carb.

If keeping expenses down try canned chicken breast in water and mix with a little fat free mayo on wheat bread, yum! I hadn't been getting enough protein either and am training very hard so I now eat lot of ground turkey vs. beef for burgers, or sirloin is a lower fat cut of beef, and egg beaters. I do use soy protein and mix it with sugar free chocolate pudding so the debate above has been interesting. Think I'll try a mixed protein when this runs out!

Think I'll try a mixed protein when this runs out!

Chech this for some good recommedations of mixed proteins:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/reviews/supplements.htm

I have tried the MetRx and do not like the taste and how thick the shake gets.

Biotest Low-Carb GROW! taste very good. I currently drinking Dorian Yates Approved Pro Peptide.

I have not tried the Labrada Pro V.

Chech this for some good recommedations of mixed proteins:

http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/reviews/supplements.htm

I have tried the MetRx and do not like the taste and how thick the shake gets.

Biotest Low-Carb GROW! taste very good. I currently drinking Dorian Yates Approved Pro Peptide.

I have not tried the Labrada Pro V.

Thanks for the info. The soy protein I have tastes horrible (GHC unflavored), so was planning on going a different direction anyway. I'll investigate!

Thanks for the info. The soy protein I have tastes horrible (GHC unflavored), so was planning on going a different direction anyway. I'll investigate!

Hi,
this is fairly cheap, and is just dehydrated milk protein. They can and will add anything you want. I like to get it plain.

http://proteinfactory.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=22_28&products_id=50