Mountain Biking - I got a ticket tonight

Me and a friend of mine were riding some urban assault on the local college campus. There's some huge stair gaps and dropoffs and stuff.. we usually ride there at night since it's EXTREMELY well lit and there's lots of technical stuff. We can't trail ride at night, so we hone our technical skills and pull stupid stunts on campus. I was riding a skinny on a certain section, while my friend was practicing some wheelie-drops of a 2-3 foot concrete divider. Right as he wheelie drops, I see a cop pull around the corner. The cop hesitates, then flicks on his lights and pulls over to us. We could have easily ran, but I figured he'd just scold us. He proceded to inform us that riding without lights was illegal, which I knew but pretended I didn't. I thought he was just going to give us a slap on the wrist and let us go.. no harm no foul. He said he wouldn't ticket us for stunt riding, but he gave us tickets for riding without lights. I realize that riding without lights under NORMAL circumstances is illegal and probably dangerous, but that's not what really irked me. We were riding on a Thursday night, harming nobody. Worst case scenario.. we hurt ourselves and nobody else. But right near campus is a HUGE string of bars, and Thursday night is club-hopping night. Tons of drunk dumbasses driving around town and causing trouble. And this cop couldn't find anything better to do than to harass some local kids who were just having a good time. We weren't even really riding on the streets.. more on the sidewalks and whatnot anyway. Under no circumstances were we doing anything to endanger others. So now we have to either take a class, or pay 51 bucks. So I guess I'm going to sit through some 2 hour class learning things I either don't care to know or already know. It's good to know that my tax and tuition moneys go to support fighting such hardcore criminals as myself :rolleyes:

http://plaza.ufl.edu/kazimer/images/jim.jpg

Sorry man that's FUNNY. You should have been busted for the Urban bit and you get nailed for no lights? Maybe he WAS being nice about the whole thing if pushed he could have tried nailing a vandalism charge on you. Next time a ten dollar K-mart Bell light might save you BS like this. <shakes head and chuckles>

It's a $70 dollar fine if you get caught riding at night without any headlights where I am.

What benefit would a set of lights give a rider doing stunts? Lights only help if the bike has both wheels on the ground. The cop must have been having a slow day.:crash:

CHEERS.

Mark

Wow....all I can say is Wow...sorry to hear it.

Gville is really strict about their light laws.
UF is also normally really strict about riding stairs and drops on campus. I know people who have had their bikes impounded and gotten tresspass warrants there.

Hey, at least your enjoying an ice cold rolling rock after a nights ride...

Heck I still have unpaid parking tickets at UF! You can tell them I ain't paying them either! :D

Nah, I'm not going to have my drivers license revoked, or stops put on my registration or anyting at UF. It's not worth it. I'll just waste my time going to the class.

Originally posted by Justin M.
Hey, at least your enjoying an ice cold rolling rock after a nights ride...


:o


Guilty as charged

No offense, but you said thursday night is club hopping night. So you run ALOT higher chance of getting hit by some drunk driver without a light on. He might have assumed you rode your bike there and would ride it back home. So he was protecting you in a way.

No offense taken. I realize I was in violation of the law, I'm certainly not complaining about it. What I dislike was the harsh penalty for such a minor infraction. Honestly... 51 dollars for THAT? By riding without a light I assumed all risks.. just like I do when I ride urban assault. Any personal or bodily damage would have been solely my fault and nobody elses. I felt a warning would have been fair. Up until tonight nobody had even said a word to us about it. He could have warned us, and we would have gotten lights for future outings. But honestly we had no idea it would be that big of an issue.. just thought we'd get a warning or slap on the wrist.

He even stated that under normal circumstances, had we not been on campus, we wouldn't have even been stopped. But apparently they are more strict on campus. Must have been a slow night in crime-fighting.

I could same thing about seatbelt law, I'm only going to hurt myself 90% of the time. But that other 10% of time I might lose more control without it. If you were on the road without a light and someone did not see you and hit you and swerved they could hit another car.. or saw you at last second and swerved hit another person/car.. so in reality if you were on the road you are endangering others. I agree for what you were doing there was no danger to anyone else.

Sounds to me as if he was really busting horns about the urban assault stuff. Most Police departments are taking major heat from citizens and the powers that be because of damage from skateboarders and urban assault type biking. They consider it a "quality of life" type of crime. You say that the officer said that off campus the odds were that you would not have been stopped. That goes to back up my theory. Go back to where you were riding in the daylight and look for the damage done by boarders and bikers.

Regardless of what crimes other people may or may not have been committing that night and their severity (or lack thereof)-you were still in violation of a local law (s) and the cop was doing his job-enforcing laws. Sounds like he gave you a break too. The problem with that kind of riding (and skateboarding) is that it is going to bring heat on anyone who rides a mountain bike (or board) because of the damage it does to public property. That kind of riding should be limited to parks. Just my two cents...

Originally posted by mjw16
Regardless of what crimes other people may or may not have been committing that night and their severity (or lack thereof)-you were still in violation of a local law (s) and the cop was doing his job-enforcing laws. Sounds like he gave you a break too. The problem with that kind of riding (and skateboarding) is that it is going to bring heat on anyone who rides a mountain bike (or board) because of the damage it does to public property. That kind of riding should be limited to parks. Just my two cents...

Well said.

Let's get one thing straight... I was NOT damaging public property and have always made a point of avoiding doing so. I realize that whatever I do can reflect negatively on my sport, so I try to keep a positive image. I was not damaging anybody's property whatsoever.

ok........

Wow that really sucks, I dont think we have any law about having lights on bikes at night and if we do.......I wonder why I havent been caught yet:D

:eek: I just looked up the laws for bicycles in michigan......I had no idea that any of these were laws.

1. You have to have a light on the front of a bike that is visible from 500 feet.

2. You have to have a bell that a person can hear from 100 feet away.

3.:eek: :eek: I can not sell, offer for sale or deliver in the state of michigan.....a bike that dosent have pedal reflectors that are visible from 200 feet away, or a bike that dosent have spoke reflectors. Yikes....I dont think they enforce the laws very good.

Originally posted by mjw16
The problem with that kind of riding (and skateboarding) is that it is going to bring heat on anyone who rides a mountain bike (or board) because of the damage it does to public property. That kind of riding should be limited to parks.



Originally posted by georgesnatcher
Most Police departments are taking major heat from citizens and the powers that be because of damage from skateboarders and urban assault type biking.

I think you guys are getting confused here.
He said they were riding urban assault not street/jibbing(god I hate that word jib!).
He even said they were riding skinnies and doing drops. How is that doing damage to concrete/metal/brick?

Urban assault is usually done on DH or Trail bikes. It is doing drops, riding skinnies, riding/gaping stairs, think north shore style riding in a urban setting. I dont see how rubber tires will damage anything.

Street/jibbing (there is that stupid word again!) is done on small hardtails usually without front brakes, long brake line/cable and long rear der cable. Think big BMX bike. It is grinding, stalling and trials type riding. It causes damage and should be confined to parks.

When we are out riding urban and a cop comes up or drives by we do not run, or stop riding. We just keep doing what we are doing.
9 times out of ten when once the cops see that most of us are over 30, how and what we are riding and that we dont have pegs or grinded(ground?) up bikes they leave us alone.

So go and complain in the BMX forum or call Aaron Chase or Thor Wixom and complain to them about giving mountain bikers a bad name.

Please dont be guilty of biker profiling.:D

Rant Off

Originally posted by Jim311
By riding without a light I assumed all risks.. just like I do when I ride urban assault. Any personal or bodily damage would have been solely my fault and nobody elses.


No you don't what bout the risk that a driver takes because he can't see you? Quit your *****in' and buy a light :) and one last legal point you don't want a ticket don't break the law

I'm going to buy some weak ass front head lamp and rear tail light. It will serve no purpose other than adhering to the legalities.

Originally posted by Jim311
I'm going to buy some weak ass front head lamp and rear tail light. It will serve no purpose other than adhering to the legalities.

You should go to Recycled Bikes on University Ave. Dave usually has used ones for cheap. If you do go, tell those guys Kevin Griffin(who used to work at smoke) says hi.

I'm not trying to profile or discriminate, I love and respect all kinds of biking. However, the distinction between "urban assault", bmx, skinnies, drops, or xc and dh, etc is lost on the average citizen. All they see are bikers (and skateboarders) potentially damaging public property and putting their kids at risk. I didn't even mention the liability issue (simply saying that you'd never hold them liable for any injury you sustain on your own behalf, while it's noble, doesn't really fly legally unless you've signed a waiver-they'll still worry about litigation).
My point in my first reply was more geared to the enforcement issue. Who is Jim311 to tell the police what to and what not to enforce and when it's appropriate to do so? We all have to live by the rules-they're largely for everyone's benfit. Challenging those laws, damaging property, bothering citizens is the kind of behavior that bodes poorly for everyone in the area who rides a bike-just like riding on private property or hiking/equestrian only trails. Nothing personal.

I guess that's about 6 cents worth now.

Originally posted by mjw16
Challenging those laws, damaging property, bothering citizens is the kind of behavior that bodes poorly for everyone in the area who rides a bike-just like riding on private property or hiking/equestrian only trails. Nothing personal.


He did not know of the law nor did he say he argued with the cop. So how did he challenge the law.
He did not damage any property.
He was riding at night on a mostly deserted campus, so he was not bothering citizens.

Therfore all of your above points are moot.

Nothing personal.:beer:

1) Ignorance of the law (s) is no excuse-he "challenged" the law (I never said the cop) when he broke it.
2) He likely left some kind of mark-wouldn't you agree? (I've seen many tire marks, chips in concrete and paint scraped off of handrails-all of which someone has to fix, btw). And it really doesn't matter wether he did or not, if there are any blemishes, as a representitive of that kind of riding, he bears a certain responsibility-at least in public perception (which will be the eventual death nell for that activity) .
3) College students are citizens too, as far as I know, and many citizens are unhappy with bikes and boards crashing around them and making noise late at night while walking around campus or trying to study or sleep.

You hungry? Cuz that sure tasted good...

Urban laws are unfair. I had much more to say than this but quite simply I have never agreed with the illegallity of urban riding and the stereotype this perpetuates on all forms of urban. Municipalities have always had the urban rider problem and have continued to use tickets as a way to slow it down which has only driven the scene further underground. The skate parks for the most part only allow skaters and bmxers and do not facilitate mtbs let alone the NUMBER of urban riders there are. I could go on for days abut how this bias towards urban riding of any kind drives me nuts but I won't as I need to ride. If the communities with these problems would pull their heads out of their asses and make suitable parks there would be much less of a problem. As of yet I have only seen one or two communities with suitable parks (either in door or outdoor) for the many types of riding and the number of riders currently 'jibbing' (haha).

And sometimes laws need to be broken in order to get points across. I will simply leave it at that as I am sure Jim didn't break the law intentionally but civil disobedience in order to win a point is worthy at times. Urban is here to stay the sooner communities realize it the sooner everyone can be happy happy joy joy. :)

at the school i went to (oregon state university), ticketing bikers without lights was their favorite thing to do, along with generally harassing anyone that looked between 18~27 years old.

the whole department there seemed to have their nightsticks up their a$$es. too bad so many people feel the need to be this way.

Man I would be broke if those laws were enforced here. I have owned one light in my life and NEVER leave reflectors on my bike. I definately don't have a rear light and my pedals don't even have a spot for reflectors...I wonder if there is a law stating how wide your tires can be or maybe how much suspension is allowed on the street. You know like the way you can't ride dirtbikes on the road (at least here). :)

Originally posted by gonesh9
at the school i went to (oregon state university), ticketing bikers without lights was their favorite thing to do, along with generally harassing anyone that looked between 18~27 years old.

the whole department there seemed to have their nightsticks up their a$$es. too bad so many people feel the need to be this way.

Well, they're there for a reason. Its unfortunate that people have to see them as 'the bad guys.' There aren't rules regarding having a light on your bike at night for nothing. Its always easy for us to say, "The cop must have been bored because he gave me a speeding ticket when there are people passing in the double-yellows just down the road." Thats not really fair. I think its our responsibility to trust their judgement. Like I said, they're not there to torment us.

As for this case in specific... $51 is a lot of money. Fortunately you were given the option to go to some (probably) useless class and will have 2 hours less to spend... doing whatever. It certainly beats paying $51. I can sympathize. I recently got pulled over because my windows were tinted too dark. And thats strait from the dealer. In the end I thought it better to just take my punishment and get over it.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Urban laws are unfair. I had much more to say than this...

Let's hear it. WHY are they unfair?

Originally posted by KevinG
I think you guys are getting confused here.
He said they were riding urban assault not street/jibbing(god I hate that word jib!).
He even said they were riding skinnies and doing drops. How is that doing damage to concrete/metal/brick?

Urban assault is usually done on DH or Trail bikes. It is doing drops, riding skinnies, riding/gaping stairs, think north shore style riding in a urban setting. I dont see how rubber tires will damage anything.

Street/jibbing (there is that stupid word again!) is done on small hardtails usually without front brakes, long brake line/cable and long rear der cable. Think big BMX bike. It is grinding, stalling and trials type riding. It causes damage and should be confined to parks.

When we are out riding urban and a cop comes up or drives by we do not run, or stop riding. We just keep doing what we are doing.
9 times out of ten when once the cops see that most of us are over 30, how and what we are riding and that we dont have pegs or grinded(ground?) up bikes they leave us alone.

So go and complain in the BMX forum or call Aaron Chase or Thor Wixom and complain to them about giving mountain bikers a bad name.

Please dont be guilty of biker profiling.:D

Rant Off

how is the cop suposed to know that they aren't doing damage?
one day he sees a bunch of kids on bikes hopping up on the ledges and doing damage. the next day he sees a couple of kids riding on the ledges.

most people don't know the difference, they just think "one bike did this, they all must do this..."

and if you don't like that one work you kept mentioning then why the hel| did you use it?

*/ you don't have to answer.....

Originally posted by KleinMp99
:eek: I just looked up the laws for bicycles in michigan......I had no idea that any of these were laws.

1. You have to have a light on the front of a bike that is visible from 500 feet.

2. You have to have a bell that a person can hear from 100 feet away.

3.:eek: :eek: I can not sell, offer for sale or deliver in the state of michigan.....a bike that dosent have pedal reflectors that are visible from 200 feet away, or a bike that dosent have spoke reflectors. Yikes....I dont think they enforce the laws very good. #1&#2 #2 are pretty common. #3 can be gotten around by just having them availiable. Generally shops around here don't waste their time slapping them on the higher -end MTB's they KNOW are going off-road. As for the pedal bit: that's why the bikes equiped with clipless pedals have those snap in platforms with reflectors legal by technicality.

He didn't say anything about any reflectors. I guess those aren't required.

Reflective tape doesn't add much weight. "Look I got reflective stuff See!"

Originally posted by mjw16
1) Ignorance of the law (s) is no excuse-he "challenged" the law (I never said the cop) when he broke it.


Exactly he broke the law, he is going to go to the class and get lights. So how is any of his actions challenging the law??



Originally posted by mjw16

2) He likely left some kind of mark-wouldn't you agree? (I've seen many tire marks, chips in concrete and paint scraped off of handrails-all of which someone has to fix, btw). And it really doesn't matter wether he did or not, if there are any blemishes, as a representitive of that kind of riding, he bears a certain responsibility-at least in public perception (which will be the eventual death nell for that activity) .


Some shoes leave more marks on steps and ledges than tires. Should shoe wearers refrain from walking on steps and ledges?

How are tires going to chip concrete? Handrails were not involved so I will skip that comment. Tire marks are the only blemish representitive of the riding he was doing.
He only bears responsibility for his actions, not the actions of others.



Originally posted by mjw16

3) College students are citizens too, as far as I know, and many citizens are unhappy with bikes and boards crashing around them and making noise late at night while walking around campus or trying to study or sleep.


There were not boards involved. Since when do rubber tires crash around?


Originally posted by mjw16

You hungry? Cuz that sure tasted good...

Nope, just had some Blackened Chicken Alfredo, but thanks for asking.:beer:

You can't let the actions of a few ruin it for everyone else. Just because some skate boarders, BMX kids, etc are tearing up the place doesn't mean that I have no respect for other people's property. My tax and tuition money goes to support those very same steps. I don't want to see my tuition go any higher than it already is!!

Well, they're there for a reason. Its unfortunate that people have to see them as 'the bad guys.' There aren't rules regarding having a light on your bike at night for nothing. Its always easy for us to say, "The cop must have been bored because he gave me a speeding ticket when there are people passing in the double-yellows just down the road." Thats not really fair. I think its our responsibility to trust their judgement. Like I said, they're not there to torment us.

i understand where you're coming from, but if you went to oregon state you'd understand that they ARE there to torment us.

case in point: i was at a friend's house with about 5 or 6 other friends, having a nice dinner and a few drinks on the porch. all of us were over 21 at the time, and it was by no means a party. all of a sudden one of the cops whips onto their LAWN, gets out of his car, and starts yelling at us that we all need to leave the "party", or he'll start giving us tickets for "disturbing the peace"!!!!! we were sitting there on the porch talking!!! but because we had glasses of wine in our hands, he assumed we must be up to no good.

well, i didn't want to deal with him, so i put the cork back on my bottle of wine i brought, and started walking home (about 3 blocks away.) half way home, there he is pulling up behind me with his lights flashing. he gets out of his car again, and tells me i have an open container, and writes me a $150 ticket.

this guy was definitely out to harrass and torment anyone younger than 30. and he was the 'bad guy'. and he is a typical example of the cop mentality in corvallis, and sooo many other campuses around the country.

i can understand giving a ticket for riding without a light at night. it helps stop unnecessary accidents. but going out of your way to give a ticket to someone just because they're playing around on their bikes in a well lit area is nonsense.

I realize he was just doing his job, but damn. Did he really HAVE to fine me? I mean.. seriously. Were we such hardened-looking thugs that he felt the need to give me a fine? He could have just given us a warning. I can't get away with a damn thing in this town reguardless of how minor it is. It seems like just being 20 years old is reason enough for the police to harass you. I'm not a bad guy, or a criminal. I was just having a good time. I wasn't acting stupid or causing trouble.. just riding my bike. I didn't run, act like an *******, or any such nonsense. I know for a fact there were kids directly across the street committing much more serious crimes than myself. But this guy had to be billy badass and write me a ticket? Waste 2 hours of my time? For what? We'd never been warned before, it wasn't like we were committing these infractions after being warned before. In fact I probably would have bought lights if I had been warned before. I don't think it's really so much to ask to just have been giving a verbal warning.

I think most Police are very unfamiliar with the differance between "urban assault" and what a lot of the BMX crews do. Its a shame but to the common man I think that both "styles" look very similiar. Granted you may not be doing grinds on cement and metal objects, but do you think most people know the difference?
Also a choice of a fine or class is fairly light. A lot of places would have impounded your bike.

next time run......

Enh, I actually thought about running. I almost certainly could have gotten away with it. But I figured a ticket for not having lights was better than getting thrown in jail.

I would have ran ... whats he gonna do? Its not like a car where he can call in your plates

Originally posted by Melt
I would have ran ... whats he gonna do? Its not like a car where he can call in your plates

you never watched COPS? they can catch you and you WILL get arrested if they do.

but on a campus you often have a decent chance of getting away. just make sure your freinds know what's up so you don't leave them standing there.

I'm not willing to get thrown in jail over something like that. I'm not a criminal.. just a guy who likes to ride his bike :)

My friends and I were doing some urban assault at the UW campus when we came upon some campus police. At first we thought we were going to get in trouble for sure but then they stopped us and asked us if we could "ride that wall over there". We of course happily obliged.

I think the trick was to not look like we were doing anything harmful. We were out in the middle of the day with full protective gear, away from people and shrubbery or anything else we could damage and spotting each other. It just looked like we were having good clean fun.