Training with Power

[bdcheung]

Aight, got the Powetap all installed and working properly. I suppose first things first: I need to figure out my FTP right? How do I go about doing that?

Also, I purchased and downloaded CyclingPeaks, and while the graphs are super pretty and snazzy, I have no idea what to make of the data.

Help a dazed and confused first-time-training-with-power-rider out!

[grebletie]

FTP is your one hour power. Simplest method to find it would be to go balls to the wall for an hour. There is also a formula you can use to derive your FTP from your 20 or 30 minute power, but someone else will have to chime in with it. It's something like .94 I think, but don't quote me.

If you haven't already, you should get a copy of Hunter Allen and Andrew Coggan's "Training and Racing with a Powermeter." Essential reading.

I'm in the same boat as you. I just took the plunge into training with power. Though for me, I'll be using an Ergomo Pro. At first I was hesitant, as it seems the least chosen option, but it seems like most of the kinks have been worked out.

[DrWJODonnell]

There are a number of ways to do this. I will discuss several options, but I am sure others will chime in with more exacting info. Pretty much everything is assumed to be done after a decent warm up.

First, if you know what your LT heart rate was, ride steadily at or near this value and boom LT power is in front of you. If you know your tempo HR (usually about 10BPM below LTHR, you can estimate by upping the power number by 10%.

If you don't know anything about your heart rate, then you can do some fun tests. Try a 30 minute TT (no stop signs or extended downhills) and take the last 20 minutes of that. The average power over that last twenty will approximate your LT.

You can try a progressive submax test. After warm up start out at what you feel to be about 50 or 60% of your max wattage. It should feel easy. Then, every two minutes ride a little harder increasing the wattage about 20 watts every two minutes. This is easiest on a trainer. When you focus on your breathing, there will be a point that you start to breathe heavily. This is your ventilatory threshold. It often corresponds to your Lactate threshold. If you continued with the test, you would likely only be able to go 2 to 4 minutes after this.

Another option. Ride lots. After getting a fair amount of power data, most of it will lie below your LT threshold. Where you see a huge drop off in amount of time at a certain power, you have a good approximation.

If you get a lot of power data you can also approximate with a 20 minute normalized power. It is very close actually.

IF you can't do any of these, take your best guess to start. Find one of the power charts that equate W/kg to a "Cat" level. If you raced cat 5, finished decently, then try plugging in one of those numbers. You will quickly determine if it is too easy or too hard and can tweak it over the course of a few weeks.

Remember that your LT will change over the season as fitness progresses. It is not a fixed number, so plan on changing it and your training zones often. Good luck.

[bdcheung]

Local Barnes and Noble didn't have the book, I'll hit up the Borders tomorrow.

Thanks for the great post, DrWJ. I'll do 30 minutes at max effort tomorrow on the trainer and see what I come up with. I plan on re-testing my FTP every 4-6 weeks over the course of the season and, once I get that damned book, I'll read it cover to cover!

[NomadVW]

You'll probably be very lucky to find the book in your LB(ook)S. Probably an Amazon.com buy.

You can also get a good estimate of your FTP by doing a MAP test and using a value of about 75% your MAP. FTP is essential in the Coggan system for determining TSS values and applying them later to your Performance Management Chart. Check out Ric Stern's web site for more on MAP testing (cyclecoach.com) - note that an indoor trainer is required for MAP testing.

I'd recommend just going out and riding for a couple weeks just like you have been before doing any functional testing. It's important to get a feel for what different wattages "feel" like to you. Regardless of what method you use to test your FTP, you'll need to have a pacing strategy for the test. It will be hard to know how much harder/easier to go for the duration of a test if you aren't familiar with the PE of the wattage numbers.

It's hard not to fight the "what can I do" phase once you get the power meter, but any test of your functional threshold or max aerobic power needs to be planned for if you want the best results - which means a good taper week, building up to it just like you would a race day.

[Bullseye]

Local Barnes and Noble didn't have the book, I'll hit up the Borders tomorrow.

Thanks for the great post, DrWJ. I'll do 30 minutes at max effort tomorrow on the trainer and see what I come up with. I plan on re-testing my FTP every 4-6 weeks over the course of the season and, once I get that damned book, I'll read it cover to cover!
Yep, do that! I just want to agree with everything written here so far. I found the book very helpful [and interesting]. There's quite a lot to know.

-Bullseye

[DrPete]

While you're waiting for your book, this might be fun to read:

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/pdf/power_v1.pdf

Very basic, but interesting...

[NoRacer]

Try here, also:

https://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

...and from the ERGOMO website:

http://www.bicyclepowermeters.com/Ergomo_Manuals/Power%20Based%20Training_English.pdf which was written by Coggan and Allen.

Topica has a "Wattage" email discussion forum that is currently an archive. It has lots of info there, but if you want to join the current Wattage group that moved from Topica, you can sign up for it in Google. Coggan reads/posts there regularly.

[zimbo]

As an FYI, the terms FTP and LT are not interchangeable. Your FTP wattage will almost always be higher than your LT wattage.

FTP is defined as your highest average power for one hour. Going balls out for one hour is quite uncomfortable, however, so many people will take 0.95 of their best 20 minute power. The key is not the raw number so much as your progress during the season.

--Steve

[popdelusions]

Local Barnes and Noble didn't have the book, I'll hit up the Borders tomorrow.

Borders does carry the book, at least in NYC (they seem to carry the entire VeloPress catalog, actually, even fairly obscure things). DC is probably similar.

[bdcheung]

Wow, this is really intense... I'm digging through the Power411 article and am learning about data I never even considered!

One question though: After I download the data from the Powertap, should I hold down both buttons and "clear" it?

[Snuffleupagus]

One question though: After I download the data from the Powertap, should I hold down both buttons and "clear" it?

Yes.

[bdcheung]

kk. Holy Jesus, I can't wait to start getting some serious data from this thing!

[DrPete]

Does it tell you that it's snowing outside? :D

[bdcheung]

Yeah, because the display stops working. My University team went out for a long ride Saturday and by the time we reached the end of MacArthur, none of us could talk b/c our faces were frozen.

Then, later, I was pulling up to a stop sign and got rear-ended by one of my TEAMMATES. Her front wheel rammed into my RD, totally ****ing up the rear hanger and RD, making my bike unrideable. Flagged down a passing car, got back to the shop that sponsors us, and got everything fixed. Her entire front wheel had to get replaced.

Moral of the story: PAY ATTENTION!

[DrPete]

Yeah, because the display stops working. My University team went out for a long ride Saturday and by the time we reached the end of MacArthur, none of us could talk b/c our faces were frozen.

Then, later, I was pulling up to a stop sign and got rear-ended by one of my TEAMMATES. Her front wheel rammed into my RD, totally ****ing up the rear hanger and RD, making my bike unrideable. Flagged down a passing car, got back to the shop that sponsors us, and got everything fixed. Her entire front wheel had to get replaced.

Moral of the story: PAY ATTENTION!

Dude, that sucks.

The Route 1 TT got rained out last week, so it went on today. Bummer was that I was out of town, and when I got home the snow started. Ugh. I decided to do the CTS Time Trial DVD instead... good workout.

There's a Felt dealer in my neck of the woods that might have your RD hanger in stock if you can't find one. I can check for you if you need me to.

[bdcheung]

We got the whole bike fixed an hour after the crash... benefit of being sponsored by a shop :) but thanks! We need to get out and ride some time when the weather improves, it's been a while

[DrPete]

We got the whole bike fixed an hour after the crash... benefit of being sponsored by a shop :) but thanks! We need to get out and ride some time when the weather improves, it's been a while

We'll have some Route 1 guys out at the 8:30 Bicycle Place ride (come prepared to suffer a bit) on Sunday... we use it as a chance to work on some team strategy, etc... I'm usually doing longer base rides (zone 2-3 type stuff) on Saturdays, so drop me a line.

[Phatman]

Yeah, because the display stops working. My University team went out for a long ride Saturday and by the time we reached the end of MacArthur, none of us could talk b/c our faces were frozen.

Then, later, I was pulling up to a stop sign and got rear-ended by one of my TEAMMATES. Her front wheel rammed into my RD, totally ****ing up the rear hanger and RD, making my bike unrideable. Flagged down a passing car, got back to the shop that sponsors us, and got everything fixed. Her entire front wheel had to get replaced.

Moral of the story: PAY ATTENTION!

well if it makes you feel any better, this GW girl fell over in front of me as we were starting out from a stop in the JHU race last year. I ran my front wheel into her ribcage and managed not to fall by unclipping my foot and stepping down on her back wheel. I wonder if it was the same girl, all I remember was that she was asian.

[GuitarWizard]

Yeah, because the display stops working. My University team went out for a long ride Saturday and by the time we reached the end of MacArthur, none of us could talk b/c our faces were frozen.

Then, later, I was pulling up to a stop sign and got rear-ended by one of my TEAMMATES. Her front wheel rammed into my RD, totally ****ing up the rear hanger and RD, making my bike unrideable. Flagged down a passing car, got back to the shop that sponsors us, and got everything fixed. Her entire front wheel had to get replaced.

Moral of the story: PAY ATTENTION!

Was she at least hot? Because that would, ya know, at least make it a little bit easier to handle.

[bdcheung]

She's cute. and Phat, I know exactly who you're talking about. i'll have to use that story as blackmail.

[merlinextraligh]

A slightly less painful way to determine your FTP is 2, 3 mile TT's with 10 minutes rest in between. Take 92% of your average power and thats your FTP.

Also after you've entered a number of rides in cycling peaks, Look at your power distribution, the point at whch it drops of significantly is a pretty good approximation of your FTP.

[bdcheung]

merlin: just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you said 2x3mi TT with a 10min rest inbetween?

[merlinextraligh]

^^^^^

Yes. That's the CTS Formula. Idea is that most folks can do about 110% of their 1 hour power for 7-8 minutes.

[NoRacer]

This is the protocol from the ERGOMO PDF file that I posted a link to earlier, How to Train and Race with a Power Meter Guide - Understanding Cycling's latest tool



By Hunter Allen




and Dr. Andrew R. Coggan PhD



Excepted from the book, How to Train and Race with a Power Meter, published
by Velo Press 2006. Available on www.velogear.com (http://www.velogear.com) in January 2006


The Threshold Test: The purpose of this initial test is that you average the highest
watts that you can for that entire time period. When you get to the effort, make sure to
pace yourself so that you do not ‘blow up’ prematurely. Start out with a 20 minute warmup,
which is just riding along at a moderate pace, about 65% of your max heart rate(HR)
or what would be called your endurance pace. Again, be sure to do the same warm-up
and intensity in your warm-up each time you do the test. Then do (3) fast pedaling efforts
at 100rpm for one minute each with one minute of easy recovery pedaling between
each, in order to further prepare the muscles for the effort. After these, then ride easy for
5 minutes easy at 65% of Max HR. Then the true test begins:

· 5 minutes all out. Punch it and hold it! Make sure that you start at a high pace,
but not soo high that you die at the end. You should have a little in reserve to kick
it to the finish line in the last minute.The goal of this first one is two-fold, one to
‘open’ up the legs for the next efforts and two, to get a glimpse at your ability to
produce watts in what is called Vo2 Max power or level 5, which we’ll discuss a
bit later in this chapter. By doing this initial 5 minute effort, it helps to get rid of
your initial ‘freshness’ at the beginning of your ride and then when you do your
next effort, you are able to produce what is more likely to be truly representative
of your FTP.

· Then 10 minutes easy at endurance pace-65% of Max HR.

· Then do a 20 minute time trial. Try to do this on a road that is fairly flat and
allows you to put out a strong steady effort for the entire 20 minutes. Do not start
out too hard! That’s a common mistake, so make sure that you get up to speed
and then try to hold that speed as best you can. If you have never done one of
these efforts before, I would suggest trying this on a steady climb or into a slight
headwind, where you are forced to do it at a maximum effort for the entire 20
minutes.

· Pedal easy for about 10-15minutes at your endurance pace or 65% of Max
HR.

· Finish the Ride and cool down for an additional 10-15 minutes.

Again to reiterate, your goal in the 20 minute test is to produce the most average watts
over the entire 20 minute period. It's not a good test, if you go out too hard and then just
explode and then not be able to produce a your true ‘maximal steady state’ power. It is
always better to start out in the first 2 minutes a little under what you believe to be your
FTP and then build up along the way and then really be riding at your maximum in the
last 3 minutes.

Once this test is over and you have downloaded the data, you will need to figure out
what your average power was for the entire 20 minute effort. Then you will take this
number and subtract 5% from it, and the resultant number will be your functional
threshold wattage value(hold onto this number as we will come back to it later in this
chapter). So, for example, if you average 300watts for the 20 minute time trial, then
300x .05= 15, and 300-15=285watts which is your functional threshold power(FTP).
The reason that we are subtracting 5% of the watts from your 20 minute test is that FTP
is defined as the highest average wattage or power that you can maintain for 60
minutes. Because most athletes have a hard time focusing for 60minutes on a maximal
effort and those that can, learn very quickly that a 60 minutes time trial is not that much
fun, we have decided that testing at 20 minutes is more realistic in terms of getting
athletes to do more regular and higher quality tests. Since 20 minutes is a shorter time
period, it incorporates more of what is called the anaerobic capacity system and this
‘skews’ the wattage data about 5% higher than what you will probably be able to do for
60 minutes.

Since one goal of any training program is to increase power at threshold(FTP), how
often threshold power will change significantly will depend in part on an individual's
training history and habits - for example, someone who is just beginning in and/or
returning to cycling may see large and rapid changes in their threshold power, whereas
an experienced rider who has been training for many years and/or an athlete who
maintains a high level of conditioning year round will probably experience much less
variation. In general, however, assessing functional threshold power at least 4 times per
year (e.g., near the start of training as a baseline, partway through the pre-competition
period to track improvement, and during the season to determine peak fitness achieved,
and finally after your peak fitness is over to determine how far you have ‘fallen’) is
probably sufficient.

[bdcheung]

I'll have to find time to do the full Hunter/Allen test, I just don't have an hour+ to devote to testing right now.

[NoRacer]

If you get an Athlete version of the CyclingPeaks Software (~$100), just start uploading your rides to the software. Once you get a few weeks of history that includes some intense workouts (Zones 5) as well as Zone 1-4 rides (using Coggans Power Zones), you'll see on the Athlete Home page/tab of the software a power distribution chart that shows what percentage of your rides are within a particular wattage bin. You can see over time where power suddenly drops off in one of the bins. According to Coggans, this is a simple way of determining your Functional Threshold power (FTP).

You may have to increase the granularity of the bins to get a more precise "bead" on what the number is. You do this by selecting the "control" in the top right corner of the graph and picking the option to customize the graph. One of the parameters that you'll discover is a way to change the width of the bins.

Don't get hung up on the number. Just use whatever you discover as a baseline value--use the top of the bin (range) or the middle or the bottom (example: if the bin is 220-240 watts, pick 220 or 230 or 240). It doesn't really matter that much at this point. Plug the number into the training zone calculator (along with the current date) on the Athlete Home page by selecting the control in the top right corner of the calculator and then click on the selection to recalculate the zones. Now, you'll have some initial power zones to train in, that can be refined as your training progresses.

[bdcheung]

Right now even at 2watt precision, the power distribution band doesn't sharply drop anywhere...in fact it looks quite like an even bell curve. I've only had 2 rides with the PT though, so I know there isn't nearly enough data. I'm going to do Merlin's test either tonight or tomorrow morning. Team ride on Saturday should give me some good data as well.

[DrWJODonnell]

Right now even at 2watt precision, the power distribution band doesn't sharply drop anywhere...in fact it looks quite like an even bell curve. I've only had 2 rides with the PT though, so I know there isn't nearly enough data. I'm going to do Merlin's test either tonight or tomorrow morning. Team ride on Saturday should give me some good data as well.

With such a small width, you are not going to see anything like a dropoff. Here is mine for the past 28. I am using a 20 watt width, and there is no doubt where that drop occurs.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/DrWJODonnell/CPdrop.jpg

[bdcheung]

Ahh, ok, I got it now. After 2 rides with the PT, my dropoff occurs at a measly 225 watts :(

[zimbo]

This is a HORRIBLE way to determine FTP, in my opinion.

--Steve

[bdcheung]

The number isn't written in stone for me - I'm still planning on doing the aforementioned tests. It's just some interesting data to fumble with while I'm at work.

[NoRacer]

With such a small width, you are not going to see anything like a dropoff. Here is mine for the past 28. I am using a 20 watt width, and there is no doubt where that drop occurs.

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r186/DrWJODonnell/CPdrop.jpg

Ummm... I thought Coggans specified that it's the first significant drop-off after the peak? (For the graph presented, the 240-260 watt bin.)

[curveship]

This might be useful to you. It's Coggan's "seven deadly sins" -- ways of determining FTP:


ways of determining your functional threshold power (roughly in
order of increasing certainty):

1) from inspection of a ride file.
2) from power distribution profile from multiple rides.
3) from blood lactate measurements (better or worse, depending on how it
is done).
4) based on normalized power from a hard ~1 h race.
5) using critical power testing and analysis.
6) from the power that you can routinely generate during long intervals
done in training.
7) from the average power during a ~1 h TT (the best predictor of
performance is performance itself).

Note the key words "hard", "routinely", and "average" in methods 4, 6,
and 7...


Full thread: http://groups-beta.google.com/group/wattage/browse_frm/thread/df47bc3a44cfefe2/e635fac39afac44b?lnk=gst&q=7+deadly+sins&rnum=3&hl=en#e635fac39afac44b

[bdcheung]

Not a member so I can't view the thread, but thanks for the text :)

[merlinextraligh]

This is a HORRIBLE way to determine FTP, in my opinion.

--Steve

I'm assuming your referring to the "dropoff" method. In my experience, if you've got enough hard rides (including some hard interval workouts, races, competitive group rides) its pretty accurate.

Obviously, if its based on 3 rides its not going to be that accurate.

For me it correlates reasonably closely with field tests and lab tests.

Its a nice measure to use as a reality check on field test results, and to track between field tests and lab tests.

Also, some people race better than they train. If the dropoff, and or, normalized power from races and competitive group rides, reflect a higher FTP than your field tests, it may indicate your not going hard enough in your tests.

[R600DuraAce]

Is a catch22 question. My drop off is between 240 to 260. Then again, I "purposely" spend time riding at those numbers because I know that's my FTP range.

For the OP, try to pick a very conservative number. See if you can hold it from 30 minutes to 1 hour. Give yourself at least a month to dial in your FTP. If after 30 minutes you feel you can ride longer, try 45 minutes the next time. Then up to 1 hour. If you still feel pretty fresh after sustaining the effort for 1 hour, try to increase the power a bit the next time.


This is a HORRIBLE way to determine FTP, in my opinion.

--Steve

[NomadVW]

Good on all of you for being able to go out and do the hour and longer tests. I honestly don't know how you do it. I have a hard time motivating myself to get to threshold and endure the pain for an hour.

It's important to note that the second LEAST favorable is power distribution. If you have power, and train to threshold, you're going to "train" your graph, like R600 said.

After completing a MAP test (http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-news-Test_yourself.htm) this weekend, I'm a believer in that as a means of identifying your training zones. I've heard it purported (and it's supported in the "40k TT Power Zone" here (http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Calculate_your_MAP_zones.htm) that 75% of your MAP will closely reflect your functional threshold. And... not including the 20 minute warm up I did, the MAP test only took me 12 minutes.

[merlinextraligh]

And... not including the 20 minute warm up I did, the MAP test only took me 12 minutes.

How long did it take to clean up the puke?:)

[R600DuraAce]

Come on, is only an hour. It helps building your constitution and fortitude. It strengthens and disclipines your mind and will. :) It would be even better to do it on the trainer. :eek: :p Is like doing an hour climb at FT.


Good on all of you for being able to go out and do the hour and longer tests. I honestly don't know how you do it. I have a hard time motivating myself to get to threshold and endure the pain for an hour.

It's important to note that the second LEAST favorable is power distribution. If you have power, and train to threshold, you're going to "train" your graph, like R600 said.

After completing a MAP test (http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-news-Test_yourself.htm) this weekend, I'm a believer in that as a means of identifying your training zones. I've heard it purported (and it's supported in the "40k TT Power Zone" here (http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-downloadPages-Calculate_your_MAP_zones.htm) that 75% of your MAP will closely reflect your functional threshold. And... not including the 20 minute warm up I did, the MAP test only took me 12 minutes.

[bdcheung]

I'm doing my testing in the kitchen so that when I puke it's easy to clean.

[DrWJODonnell]

Ummm... I thought Coggans specified that it's the first significant drop-off after the peak? (For the graph presented, the 240-260 watt bin.)

This is true, but this graph is not the best representation. It is a compilation of a LOT of endurance low intensity stuff where I am focusing on staying zone1 and 2. That is where you see the first drop. The other work I have been doing has been at or near threshold. As I start getting out of Base, the numbers will be distributing themselves more nicely.

Or I could have just made a graph to include ALL of my power data rather than 28 days.

As for the dropoff method, unless they are two rides that have you exploring all ranges, the drop off method will not be accurate. In the future, you will be able to fine tune it.

[bdcheung]

I'm going to omit the dropout method and opt for direct testing.

[grebletie]

I'm going to omit the dropout method and opt for direct testing.
Be a champ and do the 1 hour TT :)

I should have my Ergomo installed by next weekend. In two weeks I have a rest week, so until then I'll just play around with it and gather as much data as I can from normal rides. At the end of the rest week, I'll do the FTP test discussed in Training and Racing with A Powermeter.

This is just a tangential question, but as a Mac user, I'm wondering what people have done to get CyclingPeaks to run on OSX. The Ergomo comes with some sort of rebranded version of cycling peaks - though if it didn't I would have bought it anyways, it looks very useful.

Anyways, there seems to be three options as far as I can tell: 1)Buy Virtual PC and run Windows off of it, 2)Buy Parallels and run Windows off of it, 3)Download a beta copy of Boot Camp and run Windows off of it.

Now I'm partial to option number three, as it involves free software. I'm just wondering what other Mac users have done to make this work.

[merlinextraligh]

I'm going to omit the dropout method and opt for direct testing.

I think you really do need to do a field test to start, but the dropoff method is another useful reference as you get more data and progress.

[gogoturtle]

Anyways, there seems to be three options as far as I can tell: 1)Buy Virtual PC and run Windows off of it, 2)Buy Parallels and run Windows off of it, 3)Download a beta copy of Boot Camp and run Windows off of it.

Now I'm partial to option number three, as it involves free software. I'm just wondering what other Mac users have done to make this work.

I am running CP using bootcamp and it works well. But, you've still got to buy windows.

[nitropowered]

Anyways, there seems to be three options as far as I can tell: 1)Buy Virtual PC and run Windows off of it, 2)Buy Parallels and run Windows off of it, 3)Download a beta copy of Boot Camp and run Windows off of it.

Now I'm partial to option number three, as it involves free software. I'm just wondering what other Mac users have done to make this work.

VPC blows and doesn't work with Intel Macs.

I would just use boot camp.

Me personally? I have an extra windows machine mainly just use for cyclingpeaks and some games.