Classic & Vintage - High vs Low: hub flanges

I couldn't find many if any good threads on this with a search so I'll open it up here. The wheel building bug has bit me as I purchased my first bare hubset off ebay last night. A high flange Shimano set is going to be the center piece of a new wheelset for my Barracuda Mk.I. I had a high flange set on my old 1980 Schwinn Traveler's original steel wheels and loved the the look of them. Couldn't pass up the price on these Shimanos and look forward to polishing them up and doing my first wheel build. Next just have to settle on the rims.

But back to the original use for starting this. I'm building one set of high flange hub wheels for my custom painted 84 Japanese frame which is equipped with Shimano 105 Golden Arrow. But suppose I was going to do a second vintage build, this time a Campagnolo N.R. or S.R. equipped 70's build with tubular rims. What would be your pick for hubs for that?

equipped 70's build with tubular rims.

I see so many nice tubular rims. Too bad I can't get over my fear of flatting in the middle of nowhere with tubulars.

Clincher rims can get completely out of my price range. I lost a bid on a pair of MAvic MA2's last week that went for $142 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=130067627870&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT&ih=003

But suppose I was going to do a second vintage build, this time a Campagnolo N.R. or S.R. equipped 70's build with tubular rims. What would be your pick for hubs for that?

You answered your own question. Campy Record. Second choice for me would be Suntour Superbe/Superbe Pro, especially if you can get some sealed bearing hubs. Dura Ace is an excellent choice.

But should I eye the high flange or the low?

And which is easier to work with when building a wheel... especially for first timers. ;)

I lean toward the classic high flange Nuovo Record. I have built wheels with both and there is no difference difficulty wise.

I am looking for a nice pair of 36 hole clincher rims to build another set. There is something about riding on wheels that I have built that is more satisfying than those built at the LBS, and they save a few bucks in the process.

I used Sheldon Brown's instructions, took it slow and easy while reminding myself that the worst outcome would be to unlace it and start over again. Yes, I have had to do that a couple of times in the four sets of wheels that I have built.

Good luck!

I used Sheldon Brown's instructions, took it slow and easy while reminding myself that the worst outcome would be to unlace it and start over again. Yes, I have had to do that a couple of times in the four sets of wheels that I have built.

Same here.

My main trouble has been calculating the spokes correctly with some of the old hubs and rims I've used.

This site was fun: http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/

But should I eye the high flange or the low?

And which is easier to work with when building a wheel... especially for first timers. ;)

I do not find one easier than the other. And I really cannot say I notice one providing a smoother ride than the other. Just be sure if the hubs were laced previously that you use the same pattern. But I must say that it is hard to beat the look of wheel with a large flange Campagnolo Record hub.

The wheel building bug has bit me as I purchased my first bare hubset off ebay last night. ...But suppose I was going to do a second vintage build, this time a Campagnolo N.R. or S.R. equipped 70's build with tubular rims. What would be your pick for hubs for that?


Easy,Gunga! One wheelset at a time!

That wheel building bug thing can be serious. Before you know it, you'll be removing the socks from your sock drawer and replacing them with Wheelsmith DB spokes.

It will all depend on the era of the bike. If it is late 70s to early 80s low flange look more appropriate and are cheeper and more plentiful. High flange will not look right on a super record bike (unless it's a pista). If you are going 5 speed early 70s NR I would say high flange.

It will all depend on the era of the bike. If it is late 70s to early 80s low flange look more appropriate and are cheeper and more plentiful. High flange will not look right on a super record bike (unless it's a pista). If you are going 5 speed early 70s NR I would say high flange.

I agree with cyclotoine. Although I personally prefer the look of high flanges, they are more prone to failure than the low flange. I have also been told by many wheelbuilders a high flange wheel will not be noticeably stiffer than a low flange wheel.

If you are looking for a lower cost high flange set over the Record ($80-$120), you could consider the Tipo ($40-$60).

I concur with cyclotoine and iab on hub choice. High Flange are more expensive. Any ride quality differences will be in your head.

I found the www.dtswiss.com site's spoke calculator to be more to my liking than others I've come across. If you save a calculation, be careful when you go back to it though. The delete feature is right next to the open feature. :o Found that one out the hard way.

Thanks for the heads up on the spoke calculator. This first build with the Shimano hubs and some 27" rims, I'm looking at using Wheelsmith straight 14 gauge spokes. I'd like to do DB spokes, but the prices on them are just too steep to build 2x 36 spoke wheels that aren't going to see a lot of heavy riding.

personally all my wheel builds have been low flange, even my
pista hubs ( old Record hubs for the pog).
In terms of build difficulty there is no difference.
I'd go for Nuovo Record (or Super if you can get em) hubs,
DT 14/15 ga spokes, and a nice Mavic Gel330 or GP4 rim. If an
italian build maybe Nisi or Martano rims (but they can get quite spendy).
If you need to borrow a truing stand let me know.
oh yeah, I use spocalc it's perfect for older hubs/rims but doesn't have
alot of the new hubs/rims. if you want a copy let me know I can send it
to you.

Marty

oh yeah, I use spocalc it's perfect for older hubs/rims but doesn't have
alot of the new hubs/rims. if you want a copy let me know I can send it
to you.

Marty

One thing I have noticed with Spocalc. If you use the recommended length, they are about 2-3mm long. Anyone else experience this?

One thing I have noticed with Spocalc. If you use the recommended length, they are about 2-3mm long. Anyone else experience this?

How are you measuring ERD?

Note to cuda2k - when lacing up used hubs, use the same lacing pattern and follow the indentations in the hub flange. I simply presumed that I'd have a better result by going opposite of that when I laced up a used Gipiemme hub last year. Big mistake - on my 2nd long-ish ride on those wheels, the flange broke off. I learned the hard way. No reason why you should have to too.

How are you measuring ERD?

Note to cuda2k - when lacing up used hubs, use the same lacing pattern and follow the indentations in the hub flange. I simply presumed that I'd have a better result by going opposite of that when I laced up a used Gipiemme hub last year. Big mistake - on my 2nd long-ish ride on those wheels, the flange broke off. I learned the hard way. No reason why you should have to too.

Thanks for the note. I've heard that elsewhere as well and I'll be sure to do so!

Marty, I'll more than likely take you up on that offer of the stand. Probably will be several more weeks before I have all the parts assembled to do the build though. Once I do this 27" set with the Shimano hubs, and I get my Schwinn Passage sold I'll be able to look at a set of Tubulars.

For road bikes, hi-flange hubs are definitely a 1960s (late 1950s through mid-1970s) phenomenon; almost everything earlier and later is low-flange. (Of course, high-flange hubs have been a staple of track racing for decades, but that's a separate discussion.) Since the era of centerpull brakes roughly coincides with that of high-flange hubs, I generally vote for high-flange on frames which came with centerpulls. For my 1960 Capo project bike, it's a no-brainer, since I have the original Campag. high-flange hubs and the original Weinmann 999 centerpulls. Likewise, I used period-correct Campag. lo-flange hubs when I built new wheels for my 1981 Bianchi, because high-flange would just look wrong on that bike. Because low-flange hubs have been plentiful all along, it is a much smaller travesty to use low-flange on a high-end 1960s bike than to use high-flange with a significantly newer or older frame.

I have built and ridden lots of wheels with each type of hub flange. I was never able to feel any difference in ride quality, but the only hub flange I have ever cracked was a Shimano high-flange front.

How are you measuring ERD?



I used the ERD supplied by the program. I also verified ERD when I had the problem. Verified the hub dims also. BTW, if anyone needs dimensions for Suntour Superbe (not Pro) front small flange, Maillard 700 Professional large and small flange, Campy small flange 120 rear, I have them already.

One thing I have noticed with Spocalc. If you use the recommended length, they are about 2-3mm long. Anyone else experience this?

I've had that issue on one pair of rims ( campy lambas with chorus hubs).
If I think they are long I double check with the DT program and
then have the LBS check with their online spoke calculator.

Zorro, with spocalc you don't need to know ERD (well not absolutely) if
the hub is already in the system (and most of the hubs we are talking about
are included).

marty

High flange always gets my vote, though they're getting harder to come by these days. I've always used 293 for high flange 3 cross to a 700c or sewup.

I'd go for Nuovo Record (or Super if you can get em) hubs,
Marty

Are you speaking of record hubs with titanium axles? Which if that is pointed out on ebay will probably sell for more than what any of us is willing to pay?

maybe I should have said if you can afford them?

I go for bog standard Nuovo Record unless I want something
exotic like Specialized pista, or American Classic Pista hubs.

I've had that issue on one pair of rims ( campy lambas with chorus hubs).
If I think they are long I double check with the DT program and
then have the LBS check with their online spoke calculator.

Zorro, with spocalc you don't need to know ERD (well not absolutely) if
the hub is already in the system (and most of the hubs we are talking about
are included).

marty


ERD is the rim diameter - the distance straight across from where the head of the tightened nipple would rest, to where the head of the opposite one would rest. Sutherlands has a number of corrections to be applied for some of the more common rims.

I guess that what I'm trying to get at is that if the spoke lengths are too long, then the most likely causes are either ERD not being mesaured correctly, or a glitch in the calculator. If Lynn is measuring ERD correctly, then it sounds like spocalc has a problem - one that, in my limited experience with it - the dtswiss calculator does not have.

One thing I have noticed with Spocalc. If you use the recommended length, they are about 2-3mm long. Anyone else experience this?

Yup, I've had that problem as well with Spocalc. I also ran into another issue building a wheelset with a pair of high flange Campy Tip hubs: seems that 14/15/14g spokes and the relatively thick flanges of those hubs weren't compatible. In other words, the 14g curved end of the spoke couldn't quite make it around that flange cleanly (if that makes sense at all). Seems I need to use 15g spokes with those hubs or is there something else going on?

Neal

this site has the goods (http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/index.html)

this site has the goods (http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/index.html)

Dude?, That's waaay too complicated. Why should we have to mess around with calculators and trig functions when they can be built into the tool - like spocalc and dtswiss?

Are you speaking of record hubs with titanium axles? Which if that is pointed out on ebay will probably sell for more than what any of us is willing to pay?

Nuovo Record was almost completely pre-titanium. Campy experimented (on the public) with some Ti bits in teh Super Record gruppo, and backed off from some of those choices. NR parts should be very strong and long-lasting in general. However, many of them are 35 years old and may approach 50 while you ride them, so inspect carefully.

I'd have the same opinion of well-used early DuraAce.

Road Fan