Recumbent - heel strike

How does one minimize heel strike on SWBs? Any type of bikes that are inherently better? Any modifications one can make to a bike? How does one make a relatively sharp turn while going up a hill (ie reduced speed)? Thanks

Once you get used to riding an SWB recumbent it gets to be second nature and you no longer have to worry about heel strike. Going slowly uphill and either turning or riding in a straight line is another matter. Judging from my own riding and that of fellow recumbent riders, when you reach about 4 mph, it is time to get off the bike (trikes excepted!) and walk up the hill. I've been riding an Haluzak Horizon on and off for a couple years now and can't remember the last time I had heel strike.

I agree, heel strike isn't an issue once you become used to the bike. Having the bottom bracket 7 inches or more away from the tire eliminates hard interference, (hard interference is *really* bad!) Beyond that, eliminating 'soft interference' means moving the bottom bracket an additional 8-12 inches from the tire, depending of course on your shoe size. This can be done by modifying the boom for more rise, by extending the boom further to the front (and moving the seat forward to compensate,) or by reducing the diameter of the front tire. All of the options will have repercussions.

I generally don't have problems balancing my lowracer at 2.5 mph. If I get down to 2.0 mph, anything can happen, though!

I ride a Bacchetta and I agree once you get used to riding an SWB it gets to be second nature. In the first couple of months it happened to me, but I never hit the ground and you learn real fast to avoid the problem and after a few months of riding you never give it a second thought. I might add that I also increased my tire size from the standard 26" - 559 to the 700c and I still don't have a problem.
It's also like BP stated you can on some but not all Recumbents make some adjustments.

Thanks guys. It sounds like nothing that miles won't cure.

That was one of the things that led me to back track on a carbent last summer, though I never got within 500mi of one. I rode a Bacchetta Aero about 25mi and naturally the familiarization part of the ride was tooling around a big parking lot getting heel strikes every 5 min on slow turns (carlane wide). As I
suspected this is not a problem in actual riding. I did decide that, at 66" tall, a 406 fr wheel would
probably be a good idea to make stopping less challenging and the superman bar definitely necessary
to keep the elbows happy.

A SWB recumbent on which heel strike is never an issue is the Cruzbike, because your feet turn with the front wheel. There is a video link from the cruzbike home page that demonstrates the ability to turn very tightly, while pedaling hard, on a Cruzbike.

A SWB recumbent on which heel strike is never an issue is the Cruzbike, because your feet turn with the front wheel.

True, but then if you turn the steering very far, reaching around the wheel for the pedal, with your outside leg, can become an issue. Like heel strike, it isn't normally an issue, but to imply that FWD is without drawbacks is misleading at best.

True, but then if you turn the steering very far, reaching around the wheel for the pedal, with your outside leg, can become an issue. Like heel strike, it isn't normally an issue, but to imply that FWD is without drawbacks is misleading at best.

Like FWD on steep hills. I've never tried a CruzBike or FWD bent, but that's the normal complaint.

True, but then if you turn the steering very far, reaching around the wheel for the pedal, with your outside leg, can become an issue. Like heel strike, it isn't normally an issue, but to imply that FWD is without drawbacks is misleading at best.

The only drawback to FWD that I have encountered after 2000+ miles on my various Cruzbikes is wheelspin when climbing steep, gravel/rock-covered hills. "Reaching around the wheel" has never been a problem during a turn. In fact, powering through tight turns is an area where Cruzbikes show exceptional strength. I object to your charge that I am in anyway being "misleading at best". I write from many miles of experience on the only commercially produced pivoting-boom FWD recumbents in the world. They are a blast to ride and overcome many sources of complaints against rear-drive recumbents, heel strike being one of them. Many stolid recumbent riders are in disbelief at the performance of the Cruzbike. That's why we have put some video links from our web site to show it in action. - Jim Parker

That's why we have put some video links from our web site to show it in action. - Jim Parker

My emphasis added. Your post seems to indicate that you are associated with Cruzbike at more than a happy-customer level. Is that true? Because if you have a financial interest in the product, it's considered bad form to not disclose that detail. It makes me wonder if all these glowing testimonials are in fact unsolicited praise, or if someone is conducting an ad campaign on the forum.

I know it seems like i'm new here but really i'm not. Its been so long since i posted that I forgot the user name i used to use. Anyway---

Before my Easy Racer GRR I built and road a Cruzbike. At first, the bike felt pretty good so I spent several weeks and 300 or 400 miles to aclimate. Onr of the things that I disliked about the Cruzbike was the loss of traction on wet cement bike path slopes (3 of which i ride are 4 to 5 percent). and if i hit a wet leaf in the process, I would go down in a heartbeat because steering is lost also when it happens. The only way to safely climb these wet slopes was to mount a course tread offroad MTB tires or ride when the path is completely dry. The second thing was stopping in short distances without going over the bars. I'm no expert here but feel the rider's weight is higher than on a mtb so doing end'os is real easy if your not careful. When i tested the Cruzbike against my GRR I could stop a full 12 feet shorter than the Cruzbike at speeds over 20 mph. Both bikes have the same LX V type brakes and salmon brake pads and both have the same Schwalbe tires. As my friend explained the LWB bikes will always stop better and in much shorter distances. The third thing is my heart rate is higher while riding the Cruzbike. On level grounf they are about the same but when I climb with the Cruzbike my HR goes about 4 to 5 BPM higher than the same hill on my GRR. And although I feel fine on both bike after each ride I am noticibly more tired after a ride on the Cruzbike.

Jim,
You bragged about riding your Cruzbike no-handed while talking on a cell phone. Well, you can do as please but when I hear a that from a doctor it certainlly makes me wonder where your head is. Just my .02$

The only drawback to FWD that I have encountered after 2000+ miles on my various Cruzbikes is wheelspin when climbing steep, gravel/rock-covered hills. "Reaching around the wheel" has never been a problem during a turn. In fact, powering through tight turns is an area where Cruzbikes show exceptional strength. I object to your charge that I am in anyway being "misleading at best". I write from many miles of experience on the only commercially produced pivoting-boom FWD recumbents in the world. They are a blast to ride and overcome many sources of complaints against rear-drive recumbents, heel strike being one of them. Many stolid recumbent riders are in disbelief at the performance of the Cruzbike. That's why we have put some video links from our web site to show it in action. - Jim Parker

Your statement of being the only commercially produced pivoting-boom FWD recumbents in the world is also misleading, Zox has been making the FWD for a few years. http://home.arcor.de/zoxed/zox_intro.html As co-founder or owner of Cruzbike I'd do some research before I started making those types of claims. I personally never liked a mtb and from the looks of your bikes on your site that's what they appear to be, a mtb conversion.
I'm not saying that the bike doesn't have its place or use but I think you're going to have a hard time trying to push it in to the recumbent world.

Easyracerguy, I'll try to respond to each point you raise... 1) wheelspin on steep climbs, especially on wet/loose slippery surfaces is an issue with FWD. However, with practice it can be limited by learning to shift your weight forward and pedaling steadily rather than mashing. I have never "gone down" on a Cruzbike nor heard reports of others when they encounter wheelspin. The seat height is at about 26" making it very easy to stabilize the bike should you lose traction or balance. 2) "Going over the bars" when stopping has never happened to me or anyone I have heard about. I have practiced emergency stops at high speeds and have gone into skids on the Cruzbike, without ever feeling like I was going over the handlebars. Did this happen to you? I would have to see your conversion to see if maybe somehow your seat height was too high. 3) COG of Cruzbike rider vs. MTB - I'm 6'2" and my properly adjusted Trek MTB saddle is 37" above the ground. That's 11 inches higher than my Cruzbike seat. Of course, my leg position will raise my COG somewhat, but I doubt it will raise it that far (skinny legs). 4) Heart rate, etc. I would welcome a well-controlled study of hill-climbing on various recumbent and upright bikes. We have many testimonials of recumbent riders who say just the opposite of what you say, that in fact it climbs better because the ability to pivot the BB with the body and arms assists when high output is needed. This point will continue to be argued until a good study can be designed and implemented. 5) Cell phone use: "bragged" may be a little strong. I was trying to point out that as your muscle coordination improves, you can ride "no hands". It may take several months or longer for some people to develop the lateral muscle control in their legs to achieve this. I don't see anything wrong with slowing down and taking a phone call on a quiet road/trail, at least not where I ride. You have to use good judgment for anything you do on a bike.
BlazingPedals-wondered if I was hiding my connection with Cruzbike, Inc. I think it is rather obvious from my post (with the text you highlighted) that I am not hiding that fact. I also signed my name to my posts, which is something I rarely see. You are welcome to see photos of me, my wife, kids, etc. on our website. I would point you to a few recent posts on the "Cruzbike" thread where I signed my name/title (Jim Parker, MD, CEO, Cruzbike, Inc.) but the moderators deleted the thread after I pointed out the level of personal and/or libelous attacks we were receiving. I am happy to share my experience with the Cruzbike, not hiding the fact that I think it's a great format and I am working hard to give others the opportunity to ride such a great bike by making them commercially available through our company. I joined this thread because the originator was looking for a SWB recumbent and was worried about heel strike. Heel strike is not an issue with the Cruzbike. I respect the experience everyone brings to this forum. There is a lot to learn, for me, and others. If we disagree, I hope we can do so in a friendly and respectful way.

Jim Parker, MD, CEO, Cruzbike, Inc.

Your statement of being the only commercially produced pivoting-boom FWD recumbents in the world is also misleading, Zox has been making the FWD for a few years.

Sorry, I am aware of Zox, but I thought they had ceased production. I did not see them at Interbike in Las Vegas this past September. Many European recumbent makers were represented there. I hope Zox does well and can have a bigger presence in the U.S. next year. Many PBFWD are handmade in small shops around the world. The website you pointed me to indicates the 26" Zox lists at 1800 Euro ($2347). Ours is made in Taiwan and lists for under $1000 and also has dual suspension. In the future I will avoid making this statement without qualifying it with "dual suspension" and/or list price. Thank you for your post.

Jim Parker, CEO, Cruzbike.

I have to side with JP on this one. Zox and Cobrabikes both make FWD but they are both of the fixed boom variety.

Just for the record, I'm neither pro- or anti- Cruzbike. I don't know enough about the company to identify the principals by name, so I appreciate that Jim has re-added his title to his sig. This list has members who are very price-conscious - even more than me! - so I think having Cruzbikes and similar options are a Good Thing(tm) regardless of whether or not it'd be the right bike for me.

Ric,
On closer inspection of the Zoxbikes web site, it appears these are not pivoting boom FWD bikes, but rather fixed boom FWDs. They only give one angle photos, but I don't see how they could pivot. If so, my original statement may be correct.

Jim Parker, CEO, Cruzbike.

Yep, I'm the guy who started this, and for me at least it has been very informative....including all pros and cons of the cruz.

One interesting thing that I've noticed since my journey to find the right bent, is the animosity towards anything different from the tradional upright bike by dealers and users. It ranges from subtle to overt, and covers the gamut of suggesting bents are a fad, to you would look ridiculous on one of those things. Too bad. I feel that if recumbents are marketed properly they have a HUGE future in the "real world" and will bring and keep people cycling that won't go near a bike now. And no, I am not suggesting that they are just for the casual rider.

First impressions lead me to believe that no one bike/bent will meet all needs. All bikes, including bents, are geared towards a type of riding, so all types of bikes should be useful under the right conditions for that bike.

The reason that I asked about "heel strike" is that it is one thing that I, and apparently others, find aggravating on FIRST trying SWBs. Granted, as one poster already mentioned, most times the tester never leaves the parking lot.

It has become apparent to me that the advice of trying many bents for extended rides is not just idle chatter. Also, I think that the suggestion of " stating where one is coming from" is a good idea as it allows the reader to take into account all bias' that may unintentially be built into a response. Thanks to all who responded.

Ric,
On closer inspection of the Zoxbikes web site, it appears these are not pivoting boom FWD bikes, but rather fixed boom FWDs. They only give one angle photos, but I don't see how they could pivot. If so, my original statement may be correct.

Jim Parker, CEO, Cruzbike.

I don't know which site you went to but if you try this site you can get a closer look http://www.zoxbikes.com/ And I'll have to stand corrected because they appear not to have a pivoting booms but are FWD, so your original statement is correct. My apologies Sir :)

Jim, I'm not trying to be argumentative but it seems to me that you and your friend John expect others to take your claims for face value and get offended when someone chalanges them. But yet when I relay my experiences you doubt me and even question my riding technick. Yes I fell 3 times on the slopes I mentioned and perhaps I could have done better by leaning forward. But leaning forward out of my seat as you suggest every time I begin a climb defeats the purpose of the design. And it no longer becoms ergnomic or even fun. The stopping distances I recorded are repeatable and factual. and since stopping a bike is so crucial for safety it surprises me that you think it is so trivial. 12 feet means being able to stop at the first crosswalk instead of smackdab in the middle of a busy intersection. Or the difference between life and certain death. My seat height is 27".

Second issue. It disturbes me when i see ANY manufacturers repeadedly cloging up threads with posts promotioning there products. Its fine if you want to help someone with a problem with there bike, but to repeadedly boast, make claims and drop links to your site using free posting is (in my opinion) circomventing Bikeforums advertizing policy. And even if promoting is permissable in posts I would think that you would better by posting in the "over 50's" forum or even the "General" forum. Just my .02$

I think the basic design is ok but it its not for everybody. And if you really believe it is as efficent as you claim when will we see it entered in HPV racing such as RAAM?

<deleted> due to bad manners.

Dennis

Easyracerguy, yes, I think you are pretty well correct here.

It is the right policy to be open if you are linked with the company that creates a product. I'm sure Jim should get around cruzbike.com to his signature! :)

I try very hard to be clear and specific when I discuss aspects of the cruzbike, it is a difficult fine line to tread because we in fact the only company working with the moving BB FWD configuration and there are many things that are true about recumbents which turn out to be untrue or different in an unexpected or surprising way with the MBB FWD format. The heal strike is a good example: always a design consideration with a recumbent bike, but never with a MBB FWD recumbent. The design freedom when the heal strike condition is removed allows you to do some new things in terms of spreading weight and using two large wheels in a compact wheel base and with a reasonable seat-BB relationship. But it is not without its drawbacks. There is a ramped cycleway going across a set of railway lines near me that doubles back on itself - a hairpin of about 11 foot on the outer width. If I am clipped in on the Silvio the tightness of the turn puts my outside foot in an arkward position.

We also face the challenge of understanding what is going on with the unique ergonomics and where the added power comes from. I feel I have a good intuitive grasp and the next step would be some formal studies that would offer proper explanations. It is very hard to convey this aspect of the MBB FWD format without getting raised eyebrows from experienced recumbent riders, so I am always quite understated when this comes up and usually couch it with 'maybe'.

I guess if we get offended when claims are challenged it is probably frustration at not being understood. Most challengers are applying their experience with other recumbents and are probably not really grasping what we are trying to say. When I first pursued this format I did not understand how it worked or what the benefits were, I simply did it because I needed a suspended, compact city bike to take by child to day care. Only as I build more and more of them did I realise more of the ergonomic issues and so on, so I do appreciate that its one of those things that even if you love the idea, its impossible to penetrate the ergonomic implications till you ride one for a while.

All this is a long winded way of saying I do appreciate that people are looking at the MBB FWD format and comparing it and doing so 99% of the time with the very best intentions, and if we come into a thread, we will try to be specific and to the point.

As someone experienced on a cruzbike, your comments about braking distances and climbing heart rate are interesting to me.

One of the first questions when we looked at the kit-bike proposition was that we would not be able to control where the centre of gravity ended up on customers' bicycles. In testing with a y-frame bike we found that the angle between the centre of gravity and the front tire contact patch was comforably below 60 degrees. 60 degrees is significant because you need to be under that if you are to de-accelerate the bike at the rate required to meet ISO standards. The calculations are somewhere on our wiki. With the seat higher, putting it back far enough to get under this 60 degree angle puts more weight on the rear and so reduces traction. Braking and traction and linked in this way. It is true the a bike that stops safer is better but any bike has compromises that increase braking distances. We chose the ISO standard as the compromise point. (When I was studying this, I came to wonder how regular bikes meet the standard, but that is a whole other question.)

I crashed a cruzbike once while cornering too. I cornered too fast up a driveway ramp and launched the front wheel. When it came down I needed a lot of extra lean angle to keep balanced and so turned much more sharply - straight into a street sign! I have had front wheel spin while cornering but have not yet had an off. For example, on ashalt I forgot the slick tires were dusted from a recent off road excursion - the front lost traction but did not drop me off. But neither of those experiences shed any light on understanding the offs you described.

The climbing experience of increased heart rate might is explained I would think by the use of the upper body and arms. It may be simply a conditioning thing (we all know it takes a few months to get your bent legs for example). And perhaps - I don't know - you might have been climbing the hill faster. Feeling more tired after a ride may be associated with doing short bursts of very high output, according to some recently discussed excersize research.

I guess these answers illustrate the challenge I described above. Its such a new format that we are all still working to understand and offer explanations of what is being experienced.

With best regards,
John

{Johns quote} "I guess if we get offended when claims are challenged it is probably frustration at not being understood."

John, Trust me John I understand well documented test results when its presented. You can start with by revealing your controlled testng data to this statement which is on on your website:

"In our estimate, the Cruzbike is 5% to 10% more efficient for these reasons than many other recumbents. At 20 mph, this translates to an increase in speed of one to two mph."

Again I would like NUMBERS and the names of the recumbents you tested with , , not opinions.

just my .02$

{Johns quote} "I guess if we get offended when claims are challenged it is probably frustration at not being understood."

John, Trust me John I understand well documented test results when its presented. You can start with by revealing your controlled testng data to this statement which is on on your website:

"In our estimate, the Cruzbike is 5% to 10% more efficient for these reasons than many other recumbents. At 20 mph, this translates to an increase in speed of one to two mph."

Again I would like NUMBERS and the names of the recumbents you tested with , , not opinions.

just my .02$

Fair question. I too would like the data, but there have been no formal tests done by anyone to my knowledge. That's what I mean by saying its an estimate. People are reporting better than expected performance. Not everybody, but enough to suggest something is going on. There is nothing other than anecdotal evidence at this point, which doesn't satisfy enquiring minds like ours.

Given the anecdotal reports that are around, you are well read I think you would know the kind I mean, Moose at BROL for example, put yourself in my place and give me some language that would be appropriate?

I have consulted with Edith Cowan University about the design of a study and they have good equipment at their Vario Health Institute lab. So far, the cost is beyond us. If anyone wants to help fund the study as well as ask for its results, that would be great. :) Meanwhile we'll keep trying to find the right words to get across that the format is different, rides different and has quite a few advantages. Right bike for everyone - no, but a valid choice, particularly if you don't want the design to be shaped by heal strike. (had to get that in to get the thread back on track)

John