Training & Nutrition - What is Carmichael talking about? Ice cream vs. yogurt

From Food for Fitness:


Although ice cream and frozen yogurt are tasty treats, neither should be your primary dairy source. Neither one is very high in calcium or vitamins, and regular ice cream contains a significant amount of saturated fat. Some people, in an effort to avoid the fat in ice cream, switch to non-fat frozen yogurt. While they have sidestepped the fat, frozen yogurt is not nearly as nutrient-dense as people believe it to be. It is high in sugar and calories, and low in calcium and vitamins. It qualifies more as an empty carrier because it is mainly sugar with a little yogurt. Ice cream and frozen yogurt should be consumed sparingly and considered only minor sources of quality nutrients. In truth, when athletes are craving a frozen dessert, I'd rather see them enjoy a small bowl of ice cream, with its rich, full, fat-influenced taste and consistency, than bother with frozen yogurt. It tends to be a more satisfying treat, a more fulfilling reward for hard work.

But look at the chart on the previous page, all with 8 oz. serving sizes.

Am I missing something here?

I should have typed out the whole chart. For reference, here are a few other calcium numbers:

Cottage cheese: 160
Skim milk: 300
Soy milk: 40

I think he's saying that the 18 grams of fat occasionally isn't gonna hurt you. And since it's more satisfying, you're more likely to think of it as an infrequent indulgence.

My $0.02

Skim milk = 2% reduced fat milk? Because i go through like 2 gallons a week...

Skim milk = 2% reduced fat milk? Because i go through like 2 gallons a week...

Skim milk = 0% fat.

A cup of skim has 85 calories, 1% has 105 calories, 2% has 120 calories, whole milk has 150 calories. The difference is the number of fat calories.

If you drink 2 gallons a week, that's 32 cups. If you switched to 1%, you would save 32*15=480 calories. If you switched to skim, you'd save 1120 calories.

To look at it in the long term, switching from 2% to 1% would save you about 7 pounds of fat over a year...

I don't find 1% much different from 2% in taste. Skim is more of an acquired taste.

What I'm saying is this- How can he say neither are high in calcium? Later on in the book he has a list of "Sources of Calcium" and yogurt is #1 on that list. That's higher than milk, cheese, cottage cheese, collard greens, figs, etc. Non-fat frozen yogurt is #1 for calcium in his whole "Dairy Products" section.

The DRI for calcium for someone my age is 1,000 mg. If I had 8 ounces of non-fat frozen yogurt I'd be over halfway there. How is that not a significant amount of calcium?

Granted, skim milk is probably the best way to get calcium for the calories (80 calories per 8 ounces, 300 mg calcium), and I understand the idea of an occasional reward. But to say yogurt is low in calcium is just plain wrong.

Skim is more of an acquired taste.

Ugh. Yeah. I have yet to acquire it. I've been "stuck" at 1% for ages now. I also use real butter. :p

Maybe he just likes Chocolate Haagen Dazs :p

What I'm saying is this- How can he say neither are high in calcium? Later on in the book he has a list of "Sources of Calcium" and yogurt is #1 on that list. That's higher than milk, cheese, cottage cheese, collard greens, figs, etc. Non-fat frozen yogurt is #1 for calcium in his whole "Dairy Products" section.



Don't confuse yoghurt with frozen yoghurt. Despite the similarity in the name thats where any real similarity ends. A frozen yoghurt dessert has a lot of sugar in it.

Regards, Anthony

Am I missing something here?

First, what information are you looking for? What is the best source for calcium? How much dairy should you have? What are you looking for with this information?

Anyway here is some info from Eat to Live by Dr.Joel Fuhrman paraphrased

Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.

Calcium loss come from a lot of things. Some are animal protein, salt, caffeine, refined sugar, alcohol, nicotine, vitamin a supplements, ect

Their is increased urinary excretion of calcium with animal protein intake but not with vegetable intake. Plant foods are not acid forming while animal protein results in heavy acid load in the blood. This sets off a reaction where calcium is released by the bones to help nuetralize the acid. Sulfur based amino acids in animal products lead to urinary acid production and the loss of calcium.

Adding vitamin A to milk or taking vitamin A supplements makes things worse.

The best foods to get your calcium from are green vegetables, beans, tofu, seasame seeds, and even oranges. You retain calcium better when you do not eat a diet heavy in animal products, sodium, sugar or caffeine. Vegetables are also rich in a lot of other things that are essential for bone strength like potassium, magnesium, vitamin k ect..



If you are looking to strengthen bones, dairy products are not the best. If you are looking for a reason why dairy products are good they are really not and you can do without them.


Also just for some more info here is a list of foods high in calcium and low in calories (very nutrient dense) which is what you are looking for. Not like cheese or ice cream which have tons of fat are are not nutrient dense.

This is the calcium in a 100 Calories of (dont forget your chart is not per 100 calories)

Bok Choy______________________1055
turnip greens___________________921
collard greens__________________559
kale__________________________455
romaine lettuce________________257
tofu _________________________236
milk__________________________194
broccoli______________________182
seasame seeds________________170
soybeans_____________________134
fish__________________________38
egg__________________________32
t bone steak____________________5
pork chop_______________________2

Wait, so milk doesn't do a body good?

It's done me just fine for the last 26 years. :D

This is the calcium in a 100 Calories of (dont forget your chart is not per 100 calories)

Bok Choy______________________1055
turnip greens___________________921
collard greens__________________559
kale__________________________455
romaine lettuce________________257
tofu _________________________236
milk__________________________194
broccoli______________________182
seasame seeds________________170
soybeans_____________________134
fish__________________________38
egg__________________________32
t bone steak____________________5
pork chop_______________________2


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the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce

Wait, so milk doesn't do a body good?

I don't think it does. By the time it's pasteurized and homogenized to get rid of all the cow puss, the nutrients will be gone.

But if you have your own cows, that's a different story. ;)

Don't confuse yoghurt with frozen yoghurt. Despite the similarity in the name thats where any real similarity ends. A frozen yoghurt dessert has a lot of sugar in it.

Regards, Anthony

Yeah, but look at the chart. Non-fat frozen yogurt is 200 calories with 600 mg calcium. 200 calories isn't terrible considering how much calcium that is. To get 600 mg calcium from cheese, for example, you'd probably have to consume more than 200 calories worth.

the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce

Yeah, and again, 100 calories worth of non-fat yogurt would give 300 mg calcium, putting it pretty high on that list.

the problem with your method, is that 100 calories of lettuce(or other greens) is A LOT of lettuce. One cup of milk = 20 cups of lettuce


Yeah, and again, 100 calories worth of non-fat yogurt would give 300 mg calcium, putting it pretty high on that list.

You are to hung up on which is more calcium not the concepts of negative calcium balance and increased urinary excretion. Dairy will most likely give you a NEGATIVE balance of calcium. Say you eat 1,000mg of calcium from your milk, yogurt, cheese ect... You can absorb about 1/3 of that or roughly 300 mg. The remaining 700mg will remain in the digestive tract and pass out with your stool. Because you got your calcium from all animal/dairy products your body will REMOVE it from your bones (see my other post for why) and eventually you will pee it out something like 350mg of calcium leading to an overall LOSS OF CALCIUM.

If you eat 500mg of calcium from vegetables you can absorb about 200mg. 300mg will pass out through your stool and you may only pee out 100mg leaving you with a GAIN of 100mg although you consumed only half of the calcium for that 24 hour period.


Once again I am not sure what information you are looking for. Are you looking for a good source of calcium or for an excuse to eat dairy?

First, what information are you looking for? What is the best source for calcium? How much dairy should you have? What are you looking for with this information?

Anyway here is some info from Eat to Live by Dr.Joel Fuhrman paraphrased

Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.

Calcium loss come from a lot of things. Some are animal protein, salt, caffeine, refined sugar, alcohol, nicotine, vitamin a supplements, ect

Their is increased urinary excretion of calcium with animal protein intake but not with vegetable intake. Plant foods are not acid forming while animal protein results in heavy acid load in the blood. This sets off a reaction where calcium is released by the bones to help nuetralize the acid. Sulfur based amino acids in animal products lead to urinary acid production and the loss of calcium.

I thought the main buffering was done with bicarb so as to spare other elements that are needed for cellular processes.

As for acid in the blood, food does have to get past your stomach which is very acidic and then in neutralised by chyme in the small intestine? Or does the acid just circulate through your intestines.


If you are looking to strengthen bones, dairy products are not the best. If you are looking for a reason why dairy products are good they are really not and you can do without them.

I think strengthening in ones body has more to do with stressing it. In the case of bones, would calcium prevent loss of bone, and not actually strengthen it without stresses being applied to it. Saying that calcium alone is responsible for bone strengthening seems like saying that if you eat protein you will gain muscle.

The skeleton is such a dynamic structure that is constantly being remodelled, it releases calcium into the blood when there is a shortage. This may explain why it is used up in a low pH environ. The next time I get to see someone with ketoacidosis it would be interesting to see Ca levels in the blood, if they even take them.

I say have the ice cream, it gives you even more of an excuse to go for a ride. And don't even think of touching my milk.:)

Once again I am not sure what information you are looking for. Are you looking for a good source of calcium or for an excuse to eat dairy?

I'm just looking for accuracy in the book. The original paragraph I mentioned was all in the context of dairy products.

What happens if you eat a lot of calcium from plants and eat some other form of animal protein? Will the same process occur?

My question is... Does ANYONE really eat ice cream or frozen yogurt to get health benefits!?

What happens if you eat a lot of calcium from plants and eat some other form of animal protein? Will the same process occur?

The same process will occur just not as dramatically. Since less is ingested from animals there will be less of a spike of acid leading to less having to be brought out from your bones.

Here (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3239) is an interesting read on calcium and acid base balance.

Here (http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/133/10/3239) is an interesting read on calcium and acid base balance.

Interesting article although some things seems to contradict themsleves.

They seem to be saying that meat/diary do not effect calcium loss yet they state many times

"This NAE (urinary net acid excretion) difference of 25 mEq/d between low and high meat diet corresponds closely to the change in PRAL (dietary potential renal acid load ) of 24 mEq/d"

"Probably, in such situations the plasma bicarbonate level falls and the largest alkali pool of the body, the skeleton, releases increasing amounts of calcium to buffer excessive endogenous acid production. Correspondingly, negative calcium balances have been observed at high renal NAE levels in young healthy adult males, even after hypercalciuria had been largely prevented by an excessive phosphorus intake"

"High meat or high protein diets can easily result in clearly higher NAE values than those observed for the controlled high meat diet of Roughead et al"

Although it does say "Based on the above observations it appears possible that increases in daily acid load which exceed 25 mEq (measurable as -NAE and calculable as -PRAL) may affect calcium homeostasis, particularly if the final NAE is higher than 100 mEq/d."


So I guess the real question is how much meat or dairy would it take to reach those levels to cause a calcium loss?

Dairy is not the best place to get calcium from regardless if it has a lot or not. Milk has an absorbtion rate of about 33% while for most green vegetables its over 50%.

Try again. Most green vegetables(excluding spinach) have an absorption rate of 40%. Milk is around 36%.

Interesting article although some things seems to contradict themsleves.

They seem to be saying that meat/diary do not effect calcium loss yet they state many times

"This NAE (urinary net acid excretion) difference of 25 mEq/d between low and high meat diet corresponds closely to the change in PRAL (dietary potential renal acid load ) of 24 mEq/d"

"Probably, in such situations the plasma bicarbonate level falls and the largest alkali pool of the body, the skeleton, releases increasing amounts of calcium to buffer excessive endogenous acid production. Correspondingly, negative calcium balances have been observed at high renal NAE levels in young healthy adult males, even after hypercalciuria had been largely prevented by an excessive phosphorus intake"

"High meat or high protein diets can easily result in clearly higher NAE values than those observed for the controlled high meat diet of Roughead et al"

Although it does say "Based on the above observations it appears possible that increases in daily acid load which exceed 25 mEq (measurable as -NAE and calculable as -PRAL) may affect calcium homeostasis, particularly if the final NAE is higher than 100 mEq/d."


So I guess the real question is how much meat or dairy would it take to reach those levels to cause a calcium loss?


I see what you are saying in that the article contradicts itself, but I think it is a letter and not really an article, more of a discussion of a number of articles and not really research in of itself.

I found another article (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/39/2/281),that indicates numbers relating to animal protein intake, that includes bicarbonate ingestion and certain other minerals. The study was done on women, but they also discuss other studies that used other populations. The link is for the abstract but the article is free, and I was able to view the full PDF article. I think this may provide a bit more of a clue of the amount of protein intake that will cause a negative Ca balance in relation to some other minerals in the body. As well, it seems like the reference list may be a good place to look for more information on the subject.

From my very limited reading and lack of practical knowledge on this subject it appears that moderation and balance are the key. The more meat that one eats seems to dictate that one should eat more fruits and veg to get a complete diet with all the nutrients needed, and this will balance the negative effects of one type of food over another. But I guess that is what you said earlier.

Thank you for pointing this out, it was enjoyable learning something new.

Try again. Most green vegetables(excluding spinach) have an absorption rate of 40%. Milk is around 36%.


Do you think that it is because of the high fibre rate in plant products that causes there to be a lower absorption rate than there could be, and for animal sources it is lower because of all the chemical processes that it takes to get the nutrients out of meat?

From my very limited reading and lack of practical knowledge on this subject it appears that moderation and balance are the key. The more meat that one eats seems to dictate that one should eat more fruits and veg to get a complete diet with all the nutrients needed, and this will balance the negative effects of one type of food over another. But I guess that is what you said earlier.

Thank you for pointing this out, it was enjoyable learning something new.

You are 100% correct in that moderation and balance is key. The more meat you eat the more fruits and vegetables you should eat to counteract. The thing is in American society it is more likely that the more meat you eat the less fruits and vegetables you eat and as it is now Americans do not eat as much fruits and vegetables as they should and they eat way more meat and dairy then needed.

Try again. Most green vegetables(excluding spinach) have an absorption rate of 40%. Milk is around 36%.

How about no.

"Many green vegetables have absorption rates of more than 50 percent, compared with about 32 percent for milk. In 1994, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reported calcium absorption to be 52.6 percent for broccoli, 63.8 percent for Brussels sprouts, 57.8 percent for mustard greens, and 51.6 percent for turnip greens. The calcium absorption rate from kale is approximately 40 to 59 percent. Likewise, beans (e.g., pinto beans, black-eyed peas, and navy beans) and bean products, such as tofu, are rich in calcium. *Also, about 36 to 38 percent of the calcium in calcium-fortified orange juice is absorbed (as reported by manufacturer's data).

Green leafy vegetables, beans, calcium-fortified soymilk, and calcium-fortified 100-percent juices are good calcium sources with advantages that dairy products lack. They are excellent sources of phytochemicals and antioxidants, while containing little fat, no cholesterol, and no animal proteins."


Reference this site for more information...

http://home.bluegrass.net/~jclark/calcium_foods.htm

How about no.

"Many green vegetables have absorption rates of more than 50 percent, compared with about 32 percent for milk. In 1994, the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition reported calcium absorption to be 52.6 percent for broccoli, 63.8 percent for Brussels sprouts, 57.8 percent for mustard greens, and 51.6 percent for turnip greens. The calcium absorption rate from kale is approximately 40 to 59 percent. Likewise, beans (e.g., pinto beans, black-eyed peas, and navy beans) and bean products, such as tofu, are rich in calcium. *Also, about 36 to 38 percent of the calcium in calcium-fortified orange juice is absorbed (as reported by manufacturer's data).

Green leafy vegetables, beans, calcium-fortified soymilk, and calcium-fortified 100-percent juices are good calcium sources with advantages that dairy products lack. They are excellent sources of phytochemicals and antioxidants, while containing little fat, no cholesterol, and no animal proteins."


Reference this site for more information...

http://home.bluegrass.net/~jclark/calcium_foods.htm


yes vegetables are nutrient dense in terms of nutrients per gram but vegies are not themselves dense.. i don't think you're getting that... you cannot get your calcium from vegetables and do an endurance sport like cycling.. you do need SOME calories and eating 20-40 cups a day of veggies just to get your calcium... if you could even manage to scarf it down your throat.. to get you daily does of calcium.. you would not be able to eat enough calories from carbs, fats etc in order to do your workouts..

just from a practical point of view... if you think you can get all the calcium you need from veggies you are mistaken... that is unless you don't mind passing out during your workouts.. and having a huge distended stomach from eating your 40 cups of veggies a day...

yes vegetables are nutrient dense in terms of nutrients per gram but vegies are not themselves dense.. i don't think you're getting that... you cannot get your calcium from vegetables and do an endurance sport like cycling.. you do need SOME calories and eating 20-40 cups a day of veggies just to get your calcium... if you could even manage to scarf it down your throat.. to get you daily does of calcium.. you would not be able to eat enough calories from carbs, fats etc in order to do your workouts..

just from a practical point of view... if you think you can get all the calcium you need from veggies you are mistaken... that is unless you don't mind passing out during your workouts.. and having a huge distended stomach from eating your 40 cups of veggies a day...

Noone said vegetables should be your only source of calories, vitamins or minerals.
Noone said only eat vegetables and go do an endurance bike ride.

I did however say that if you want to get more calcium get them from fruits and vegetables and not dairy. To go out of your way to eat ice cream, yogurt, cheese, milk ect to get your calcium is not what you should be doing.

I can't even figure out where you thought anyone was saying to get all of your nutrients from vegetables. This discussion is about how to get calcium, not the only foods you should eat during the day.

Noone said vegetables should be your only source of calories, vitamins or minerals.
Noone said only eat vegetables and go do an endurance bike ride.

I did however say that if you want to get more calcium get them from fruits and vegetables and not dairy. To go out of your way to eat ice cream, yogurt, cheese, milk ect to get your calcium is not what you should be doing.

I can't even figure out where you thought anyone was saying to get all of your nutrients from vegetables. This discussion is about how to get calcium, not the only foods you should eat during the day.


bottom line is that i can drink two cups of fortified milk and get my daily calcium intake... that's what i would consider a "good", practical source of calcium

other nutrients are may be another story but in the case of calcium, vegetables are not a good source since even though they may be calcium rich in the nutrient on a per gram basis, they are not dense them self, so it takes so much volume to get those grams it makes it impractical to get your daily dosage or even any real considerable portion there of from them... so i am right on point.. veggies are not a good source of calcium from a purely practical point of view.. dairy product are though.

Alright, I give up, you are right. I am giving up my 3 cups of milk and instead will have 105 apples. Or maybe I will have six cups of beans or bok choi or 37 figs or my personal favorite...200 peaches. I like peaches...but not that much.

Even using your own reference, there are only two vegetable sources that come close to milk in terms of bioavailable calcium. They are brocoli and boiled turnip greens.

And if you look at your source carefully, they have conflicting "data" on the website. In some places they mention bioavailable calcium, some places they don't and in other places they have several different values for the same food item. Check out broccoli. Is it 1 cup and 178mgs or 1 cup and 72 mgs? Kale is also listed at 90 mg and 94 mgs. Not that 4 mgs really matters. But if the site is so sloppy that they have different values on the same page, can you really believe anything they say?

Do you think that it is because of the high fibre rate in plant products that causes there to be a lower absorption rate than there could be, and for animal sources it is lower because of all the chemical processes that it takes to get the nutrients out of meat?


I would have to do a lit search to be sure, but my hypothesis is that high fibre foods slow gut transit time(fact) thereby allowing the nutrients such as calcium to be absorbed into the blood stream. Also, ingesting acid while consuming calcium increases the bioavailability. I would think that many veggies are at least slightly acidic. Keep in mind oxalate present in spinach blocks nearly all of the calcium.

bottom line is that i can drink two cups of fortified milk and get my daily calcium intake... that's what i would consider a "good", practical source of calcium

other nutrients are may be another story but in the case of calcium, vegetables are not a good source since even though they may be calcium rich in the nutrient on a per gram basis, they are not dense them self, so it takes so much volume to get those grams it makes it impractical to get your daily dosage or even any real considerable portion there of from them... so i am right on point.. veggies are not a good source of calcium from a purely practical point of view.. dairy product are though.



Alright, I give up, you are right. I am giving up my 3 cups of milk and instead will have 105 apples. Or maybe I will have six cups of beans or bok choi or 37 figs or my personal favorite...200 peaches. I like peaches...but not that much.

Even using your own reference, there are only two vegetable sources that come close to milk in terms of bioavailable calcium. They are brocoli and boiled turnip greens.


You stick to drinking your fortified milk. Once again you are all to stuck up on quantity of calcium and not what happens when it gets into your body. But I give up. I put the information out there so you can all do as you please with it. Good luck.

According to the USDA, you would have to consume about 8 cups of 1% milk to meet the DRI of calcium if the bio-availability is about 1/3 of the total calcium content of the milk. That would contain about 800 calories and 66 grams of protein. If vegetables have a 50% bio-availability of Ca you would have to eat about six cups of collards to meet the DRI for Ca and that would account for 296 calories and 24 grams of protein.

According to the USDA, you would have to consume about 8 cups of 1% milk to meet the DRI of calcium if the bio-availability is about 1/3 of the total calcium content of the milk. That would contain about 800 calories and 66 grams of protein. If vegetables have a 50% bio-availability of Ca you would have to eat about six cups of collards to meet the DRI for Ca and that would account for 296 calories and 24 grams of protein.


...a long ride and you can burn 3000+ Calories... so what is 800 Calories going to do... you need the calories, plus you need to stay hydrated and you need the calcium, plus you need the protein and the fat... just think about it for a minute... is it going to be easier to down 8 cups milk (i prefer 1% chocolate milk) in a day when doing a sweat inducing sport like cycling or down 6 cups of collards? just think about it.. it's really easy to down the milk, it's liquid and goes down really easy.. and cycling make you dehydrated and thirsty.. 6 cups of collards.. are you kidding? plus you're going to get Ca from other means to so you're not really going to need to down those 8 cups, but it would be really easy to do it though over the course of a day... after a ride i could likely down 4-5 cups right there... yes eat your greens but... c'mon dairy is a very good, very practical source of Ca

if you want THE link for nutritional data this is the page... will tell you everything you need to know, even nutrition in restaurant chain's foods

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c201T.html

if you want THE link for nutritional data this is the page... will tell you everything you need to know, even nutrition in restaurant chain's foods

http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-C00001-01c201T.html


Here (http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/) is a good one from then USDA laboratories that some may find useful as well

Wow, I thought this thread about yogurt..........

Any-whoooo, I think it's great that people are at least thinking critically about nutrition and diet.

Not sure if this point was "hammered home" or not - simply identifying dietary sources of calcium and adding them to one's diet is not the end of story. A complex set of hormones, and other Vitamins, like Vitamin "D" are necessary to utilize calcium in conjunction with bone maintenance.

If you want an additional headache, I believe the optimal ratio for some of these nutrients varies depending on age as well as gender. And there is evidence that over-supplementation of certain vitamins can suppress calcium utilization in some groups of people.

Wow, I thought this thread about yogurt..........

Any-whoooo, I think it's great that people are at least thinking critically about nutrition and diet.

Thats the great thing about discussion, as long as one is willing to discuss. The next part is acting on what one has learned.