Singlespeed & Fixed Gear - NJS, why????

Hi folks,
I don't know if this question really has an answer, but recent picture threads have kindled my curiousity- so I must ask. What makes the NJS track frames (Kalavinka, Samsen, et all) so desireable?
To be clear, I'm not trolling with this- I love the look of the lugged, tight clearance frames- but since I've never seen one of these in person, much less ridden one, I don't see why they are better than a Cinelli, Walker, or any other quality frame.
It can't be the geometry, track is track pretty much. I doubt they are super light, you don't need/want that in a bike intended for serious track racing.
So is it just, as I suspect, an "it's NJS so it's cool" thing?

NJ(esu)S

if you don't know then nobody will tell you.

because you can't race professional keirin without it.

I don't know if it was ever said that they are better than cinelli's or whatever. I suppose it's a matter of preference. NJS frames are built to adhere to strict rules of keirin racing. They are very high quality frames, much like cinelli's and the like.

Well let's see. NJS stuff is generally more vintage / purist oreinted - nothing carbon, no aluminum frames, very nice lugged construction and old school looking. They're pretty aesthetically pleasing.

Status symbol.

NJ(esu)S

+ 70 times seven times*


*Matthew 18:22

I don't know. Why is anime so popular?

Well let's see. NJS stuff is generally more vintage / purist oreinted - nothing carbon, no aluminum frames, very nice lugged construction and old school looking. They're pretty aesthetically pleasing.
More vintage than what?
The examples he listed in other nice bikes would be nice, lugged steal frames as well.
Although some may or may not be "ultra vintage".

The thing I think was left out so far is no matter if its a De Rosa, a Cinelli, a Walker, a Witcomb, a 3Rensho, a Pogliaghi, a Raleigh, a Serotta, a Colnago, or a Kalavinka (and the list goes on), we all cream our pants. Nice frames are nice frames.

<smarmy arsehole reply>
Because everyone beats off to oldschooltrack.com/messenger rhetoric of "If it's not old, then it's not cool". Kinda like how if you have a brand new skateboard, it's not cool until you bash it up and pretend you can actually do nose slides down the entire hand rail.

Keirin bikes sort of branched off from that because they're still made like the old school bikes (street cred +1) and sort of formed their own little cult of 6'3" tall hipster anime nerds with too much money for 52 cm sized bikes (it's got that compact geometry, yo!) that are frankly technologically inferior in every possible way to bikes made since 1990.

</smarmy arsehole reply>

Fetishization comes in different forms.

NJ(esu)S

:D

Well let's see. NJS stuff is generally more vintage / purist oreinted - nothing carbon, no aluminum frames, very nice lugged construction and old school looking. They're pretty aesthetically pleasing.

I agree. I was just wondering if there was a concrete reason why keirin frames had such a cult following in the US (and away from the track).
To put it another way: Would a US made frame (all to NJS spec, Japanese lugs/steel) be as well received by the cult members?

I agree. I was just wondering if there was a concrete reason why keirin frames had such a cult following in the US (and away from the track).
To put it another way: Would a US made frame (all to NJS spec, Japanese lugs/steel) be as well received by the cult members?

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how open they are. I know they wouldn't shun a Yamaguchi.

enu-jei-esu

+ 70 times seven times*


*Matthew 18:22


ha ha! yes!

to be more serious, i dunno. some are pretty nice, though i like italian bikes better. as far as why they're huge...fashion. sparkly purple track bikes are fashionable. i think the fad aspect of njs bikes and the flashy paint jobs are what turn me off...i can be an arsehole about njs sometimes, but i will concede that many are very nice, well-built frames with classy understated aesthetic values and sharp geometry.

I don't know. Why is anime so popular?

YES!

More vintage than what?
The examples he listed in other nice bikes would be nice, lugged steal frames as well.
Although some may or may not be "ultra vintage".

The thing I think was left out so far is no matter if its a De Rosa, a Cinelli, a Walker, a Witcomb, a 3Rensho, a Pogliaghi, a Raleigh, a Serotta, a Colnago, or a Kalavinka (and the list goes on), we all cream our pants. Nice frames are nice frames.

Vintage as in you can look at a picture of this bike (circa 1959):
http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/03bicycles/takhion59TS.jpg
swap out the Brooks for a Kashimax and the stem for a Nitto and you pretty much have the same aesthetic as an NJS bike. Okay, you're right though, it's exactly the same as a nice old Cinelli too, so you have me there. But I was talking about an NJS bike in comparison to say, a newer school US track bike with threadless stem, anatomical drops, carbon anything, etc etc etc.

So in conclusion I guess I didn't really answer the question well above, my apologies. I would say it's a combination of aesthetics, status, high quality construction, and cheaper than obscure Italian frames with full Campy components. A genuine appreciation or obsession with keirin racing in Japan could also tie into it, and a desire to want to be riding what they're riding over there.

Well I've got an NJS bike in my basement waiting to be built up, and for me it was like I wanted to go from road conversion to track frames for a higher bottom bracket and steeper angles, and ended up finding Stratton and realizing I could afford the frame I got (NJS Bridgestone Grand Velo) for just slightly more than a Pake (or about the same if I threw a nice headset on that Pake) and less than a Soma Rush, AND have a genuine track bike as opposed to an entry level bike built with entry level fixed gear riding in the city in mind. Plus it does have beautiful lugged construction :)

and tighten up that wheelbase too...

don't forget the fact that they're handmade by talented frame builders, but they're PLENTIFUL and, aside from some of the ebay absurdity (notably 3rensho, samson, and some other huge names) and some boom/profiteering, many are fairly affordable.

i was actually surprised by this piece (http://keirinculture.com/features.shtml) on keirinculture.com, the website of a guy who's been importing and selling through his myspace and ebay for quite a while now. a nice little write up of why he likes keirin bikes.

of course there's a fad element to it all, too, but people who can't stop talking about it are as much to blame for perpetuating it as anybody else.

Hi folks,
I don't know if this question really has an answer, but recent picture threads have kindled my curiousity- so I must ask. What makes the NJS track frames (Kalavinka, Samsen, et all) so desireable?
To be clear, I'm not trolling with this- I love the look of the lugged, tight clearance frames- but since I've never seen one of these in person, much less ridden one, I don't see why they are better than a Cinelli, Walker, or any other quality frame.
It can't be the geometry, track is track pretty much. I doubt they are super light, you don't need/want that in a bike intended for serious track racing.
So is it just, as I suspect, an "it's NJS so it's cool" thing?

A) It leaves little doubt about the quality if the product.

Stamps of approval are very useful when you aren't familiar with where a product came from or it's level of quality. They also keep the manufacturer honest, meaning that the manufacturer will be careful not to let sub standard parts make it to the market even though they lose money by throwing them away.

Some common stamps of approval that we use every day:

- DOT
- USDA
- Bachelors Degree
- Kosher
- Made in the USA

B) It's a little more exclusive because some of the parts are hard to find. And a 100% NJS bike is possible, but rare. Some people are perfectionists and will strive for that in a project bike, like people will strive to build an All-Italian or all-Japanese bike. Sort of like having an all AC Schnitzer, Brabus, or VW Motorsport car.



So, depending on what you are into NJS can mean different things.

It's fashion. Wait a few years and you'll see a bunch of rich kids selling off their NJS stuff to clean out the garage.

it's like my grandfather who had to make sure the car he was restoring was 100% authentic. he even hand sewed cloth covers for the each spring in the seats because that was how it was done on the original. it's just one of those things. the retro guys are the same way & i think it has a little bit to do with this whole njs thing. i'm considering building up an njs in the distant future (years & years away) just because i think it would be an interesting build, not for any superiority complex.

Vintage as in you can look at a picture of this bike (circa 1959):
http://www.bikecult.com/works/archive/03bicycles/takhion59TS.jpg

. I would say it's a combination of aesthetics, status, high quality construction, and cheaper than obscure Italian frames with full Campy components.

Well said, that's exactly the conclusion I came to, in that same order!

carleton- I agree the stamp is nice to assure a degree of quality- but it seems like andre's first two reasons are the reasons the stamp is so revered.

queerpunk- thanks for the link, reading it now.

from keirinculture.com- "NJS-approved frames and components are truly special. Every used keirin frame has a unique history that you’d find nowhere else. At one point the frame was raced and cared for by a man whose family’s livelihood depended on his ability to race it. That little stamp symbolizes a history tied into the rebuilding of postwar Japan, but that’s another story.... "

Thats it! They got soul, baby.
Maybe they even file their lugs by pulling instead of pushing? edit- Sorry for the obscurity of the reference to the Japanese craftsman.

Find one for me in 62cm!

well not all njs frames were ridden and raced.

but anyway

mostly i think its because used keirin frames used to be super cheap and then people saw that the craftsmanship was pretty good, too, and now they are fetishized and they arent as plentiful as before.

Maybe they even file their lugs by pulling instead of pushing?
I get it! Ha!

I like QP's explanation. It's way easier to find a good looking keirin frame and afford it than a good looking cinelli, masi, etc.

from keirinculture.com- "NJS-approved frames and components are truly special. Every used keirin frame has a unique history that you’d find nowhere else. At one point the frame was raced and cared for by a man whose family’s livelihood depended on his ability to race it. That little stamp symbolizes a history tied into the rebuilding of postwar Japan, but that’s another story.... "

Thats it! They got soul, baby.
Maybe they even file their lugs by pulling instead of pushing? edit- Sorry for the obscurity of the reference to the Japanese craftsman.

You don't think that's romanticized at all?

You could say the same damn thing about a mop.

"This mop has been approved by the mopping society of america and has a unique history who's family relied on that mop and his ability to clean with it."

You don't think that's romanticized at all?

You could say the same damn thing about a mop.

"This mop has been approved by the mopping society of america and has a unique history who's family relied on that mop and his ability to clean with it."

Lawl +5 funny

matches my tattoo

You don't think that's romanticized at all?

of course it's romanticized. that's how romanticization works, eh? for one person, it's just liking something a lot. when it gets social, it gets silly.

one can love keirin bikes for having soul, but you can't buy that soul. i know that in all the consumption and commodification that goes on, i love it when people come with stories of connecting with framebuilders, visiting and respecting shops and heritages. some things come to mind that i really like - the picture of sashae riding tomity's bike on a velodrome in japan, with a big ****eating grin on his face. and that link to the page about getting fitted and exploring the Masi shop. and walker's public communication and camaraderie with some of his clients via this and other boards.

that's what gives a bike soul. not clicking BIN on ebay, no matter how the bike was rode before.

You don't think that's romanticized at all?

You could say the same damn thing about a mop.

"This mop has been approved by the mopping society of america and has a unique history who's family relied on that mop and his ability to clean with it."

Good stuff! Well played Octopus.

Of course it's romanticized, but I can understand the appeal of that connection with the past/craft/sport. I can buy a brand new frame jig, but instead I'm trying to get my hands on an old one built by a true master....Italian even! It is just a collection of steel with machined faces, but knowing what was built on it and the history of the builder, it's just, well, cooler.

You don't think that's romanticized at all?

You could say the same damn thing about a mop.

"This mop has been approved by the mopping society of america and has a unique history who's family relied on that mop and his ability to clean with it."

I don't ever remember seeing any really kick-azz, heated mopping competitions.

http://thursdays.com/pic200/burnett3879.jpg

hot paint, hott lugs, exclusivity (well, a year ago at least), exoticism, small frameshop craftsmanship, tightness, purity, all for $400+

NJ(esu)S


C++

Seriously, I don't mean to sound flippant, but the reason
for their popularity should be obvious. Track bikes are
popular now, and is so happens that Japan has a bumper
crop of track bikes. They also offer a good value; I got
my Bridgestone with a Sugino 75 BB and the Tange head-
set for less than the cost of a Bareknuckle frame, and for
little more than the cost of most off-the-shelf track bikes.

Anyway, it's not like people are just throwing away their
Italian track bikes. Look around on eBay and it's clear
that big name Italian steel is commanding its highest
price in recent memory, equivelant to or higher than
most Keirin stuff.

Rice Rockets for Hipsters.
That said, I miss my Kiyo. The true soul of a bicycle, comes from the person riding it. Are there Keirin races here in the States that allow betting? Drinking on the stands? Maybe that would be the thing to truly put Track Racing on the scene. It's like the bigger kids Ninja Star. It's a status thing. But those surely are some pretty lugs and colors, are they not?

because you can't race professional keirin without it.



and how many NJS bike owners here race professional keirin???

he was being ironical.

the answer, though, is simple. if you're in the US, Japanese things rule; if you're in Japan, American things rule, by definition. exotic(-seeming) things rule.

here's a more fundamental question: what's wrong with style?

unless you race then it's strictly for exclusivity/elitism hey i got this here thing and you don't- it makes me wanna jack a lazy aesthete wit some cheddar- hey wait thats me. on second thought nevermind.

Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how open they are. I know they wouldn't shun a Yamaguchi.

shun me beetches!!!!

http://visitordesign.com/built-guch.jpg

Hi folks,
I don't know if this question really has an answer, but recent picture threads have kindled my curiousity- so I must ask. What makes the NJS track frames (Kalavinka, Samsen, et all) so desireable?
To be clear, I'm not trolling with this- I love the look of the lugged, tight clearance frames- but since I've never seen one of these in person, much less ridden one, I don't see why they are better than a Cinelli, Walker, or any other quality frame.
It can't be the geometry, track is track pretty much. I doubt they are super light, you don't need/want that in a bike intended for serious track racing.
So is it just, as I suspect, an "it's NJS so it's cool" thing?


My reason is that there are not many builders building that classic lugged steel look that most people known to see.

Yes they do tig weld, fillet brazing but on the whole you just don't see it . Keirin kept these qualities and look of those classic basic designs. Japanese road stores only have carbon, ti, aluminum type frames.

I can look at my 1985 Atala and look at my RAP and see the same thing.

Most Italian builders don't make them like that and most American builders also.

Richard Sachs is still making like this for years and I thank Don Walker for his NAHBS to show we are making more. Yamaguchi only made with steel and lugs but recently changed ( past 10 plus years).

Again for me it's just the old, lugged, steel classic look that is hand made too.

When I lived in Japan , I was going to keirin races and going to the keirin shops( very hard to find in my early years).

I got on this forum due people asking about keirin , at that time it was a former Philly messenger and I posting from Japan maybe Potus also.

I also got on here to disspell myths about the messenger scene in NYC and other places during my time messengering.

It maybe a fad here in the US but it spread to the world through alley cats, the messener scene and the Internet. Most people have now moved from the fad portion to enjoying track bikes to race now.

Squid, 165, Msngr and a host of others have took up racing. that we have the 3 city tour.

We have guys and gals into track bikes and can see through keirin bikes what I seen during my time as a NYC messenger and racer during the 80s and early 90s.

It was meant to be as track racing and bikes was underground for years. Now the US has a new generation that can talk about track bikes, frames, racing and affection.

I didn't like seeing all the people riding track and didn't know how to ride when I came back NYC .

I have passed on what I was taught to others and due to buying Keirin frames and parts , I was abled to sponsor guys ( Red Menance and Msngr) in NYC that I met here on BF to race at Kissena and other places.

I started hanging at Track Star so I could pass on my knowledge of keirin, messengering and the love of track bikes.

I can no longer ride bikes anymore but give a host of people credit for the new track scene and the Keirin, NJS and builders are one group.

I hope you guys do the same, by passing on the love of track bikes because as mention before the track scene may die out again and tracks may be in people's cellars forever this time.

S/F,
CEYA!

<snipped>

Richard Sachs is still making like this for years and I thank Don Walker for his NAHBS to show we are making more. <cut>
here's a frame in the image of that i will display assembled at san jose in march -
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs/album/576460762315849174#page1
here's one from a couple of years ago -
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs/album/576460762315840869



I hope you guys do the same, by passing on the love of track bikes because as mention before the track scene may die out again and tracks may be in people's cellars forever this time.

amen sistah'.

shun me beetches!!!!

http://visitordesign.com/built-guch.jpg


I soil my pants every time I see that picture.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs/album/576460762315849174#page1
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/bobbesrs/album/576460762315840869


Dear lord.

+ 70 times seven times*


*Matthew 18:22
Hey Andrew - how does NJS work out in the snow?

shun me beetches!!!!



Am I the only one who finds this bike awful? I mean, what the hell is it trying to be? Pretty much a very expensive bike kitchen experiment. Throw some drop bars on that ****...

Am I the only one who finds this bike awful?

yes.



I mean, what the hell is it trying to be?

fast, adaptable, and sweet; a custom-made bike for someone with specific and demanding tastes and needs.


Pretty much a very expensive bike kitchen experiment.

hardly.


Throw some drop bars on that ****...

why?

yes.




fast, adaptable, and sweet; a custom-made bike for someone with specific and demanding tastes and needs.



hardly.



why?

Nothing adaptable about a geared road bike where you can safely put your hands in only ONE place. With drop bars there are 3 positions where you can ride and feather the brakes and 4-5 total positions. Demanding tastes? Wow, a bike that instead of doing one thing does like 3 at 70%.