"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Optygen: Any opinions?

So I have no idea why this particular supplement caught my eye--probably more aggressive advertising, but I was wondering if anyone's used Optygen. Seems like there's some OK science to back the stuff up and some favorable reviews out there, but I was curious to hear some other experiences.

http://www.mtbr.com/reviews/Nutrition/product_122720.shtml

Wow man, the guys at MTBR usually have at least a few harsh reviews. I suppose the possibility exists that the product is being shilled, but the fact that there are 17 (well...16, one is a double post) positive reviews and no negative ones may make it worth a try at least.

The supplement facts look good:
Chromium (as Chelavite® amino acid Chelate) 200mcg 167%
Cordyceps CS-4 (Cordyceps Sinensis) (mycelia biomass) minimum 7% cordycepic acid 1000mg *
ATProTM Matrix (Calcium Pyruvate, Sodium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Ribose, Adenosine) 800mg *
Rhodiola Extract (Rhodiola Rosea)(root) minimum 2.5% salidrosidesminimum 3.0% rosavins 300mg *
Oleosus Serpens

With the exception of the last ingredient, I think it's worth a shot. But hell, you're the MD, you tell us :D

They certainly have some big claims..

# Increases Endurance and Performance
# Reduced Lactic Acid
# Increases oxygen utilization
# Increase in VO2 Max
# Increase in Time to Exhaustion
# Increase Anaerobic threshold
# Improved exercise capacity
# Increase Maximal Oxygen uptake
# 30% - 50% increase in Oxygen Utilization
# Increase ratio of ATP by 45% - 55%
# Enhanced Endurance
# Increase in ATP production

Maybe training IS for wussy, R600DuraAce you should get some of this stuff. You might get out of your 3 year Cat 4 rut.

All snark aside, the stuff might be good, but it's being sold like snake oil.

heh, if it actually does all of that, I doubt its legal.

Ah... well, it looks like if it's going to do all those things it needs to be for longer than 2 weeks... While it's not specifically named, the dosing and ingredients sound like Optygen. And it seems like a pretty well-done study. There are some definite trends there, but the n is way too small to make it statistically significant. My only question is, who are these Cat 3/4 cyclists with peak power outputs of 300W? That seems a bit strange.


Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2004 Mar;36(3):504-9.Click here to read Links
Effects of a commercial herbal-based formula on exercise performance in cyclists.

* Earnest CP,
* Morss GM,
* Wyatt F,
* Jordan AN,
* Colson S,
* Church TS,
* Fitzgerald Y,
* Autrey L,
* Jurca R,
* Lucia A.

Center for Human Performance and Nutrition Research, The Cooper Institute Center for Human Performance and Nutrition Research, Dallas, TX 75230, USA. cearnest@cooperinst.org

INTRODUCTION/PURPOSE: We examined the effects of a commercially marketed herbal-based formula purported to increase endurance on oxygen consumption (VO2) in 17 competitive category III/IV amateur cyclists [mean (SEM) age: 31.1 (1.8) yr; height: 178.5 (1.8) cm; weight: 77.1 (1.6) kg]. METHODS: Each cyclist participated in two (pre/post) cycling tests progressing 25 W.4 min(-1) starting at 100 W administered in a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind fashion. The second trial was performed 14 d after the ingestion of a manufacturer recommended loading phase (4 d x 6 caps.d(-1)) and a maintenance phase (11 d x 3 caps.d(-1)). Three treatment capsules contained 1000 mg of Cordyceps sinensis (CS-4) and 300 mg Rhodiola rosea root extract as the primary ingredients; 800 mg of other ingredients included calcium pyruvate, sodium phosphate, potassium phosphate, ribose, and adenosine and 200 mcg of chromium. RESULTS: Using a 2 x 2 ANOVA, we observed no significant treatment effect for any between or within group variables including peak VO2 [treatment 4.14 (0.2) L.min(-1); placebo 4.10 (0.2) L.min(-1)], time to exhaustion [treatment 38.47 (1.7) min; placebo 36.95 (1.8) min], peak power output (PO) [treatment 300.00 (12.1) W; placebo 290.63 (12.9) W], or peak heart rate. We also observed no differences for any subpeak exercise variable including the PO eliciting 2 mmol.L(-1) blood lactate (BLa) [treatment 201.00 (18.1) W; placebo 167.50 (19.2) W] and 4 mmol.L(-1) BLa [treatment 235.88 (15.8) W; placebo 244.78 (14.9) W], ventilatory threshold, respiratory compensation point, or Vo2 L.min(-1) gross efficiency at each stage. CONCLUSION: A 2-wk ingestion schema of a commercial herbal-based formula is insufficient to elicit positive changes in cycling performance.

Shortcuts can be avoided by eating healthier, sleeping more and training proper.

Shortcuts can be avoided by eating healthier, sleeping more and training proper.

That, as usual, seems to be the bottom line. Good thing I got my ride in tonight.

Shortcuts can be avoided by eating healthier, sleeping more and training proper.

They are called supplements for a reason:rolleyes:

the question is who is getting supplemented? the end user or the shareholder?

They are called supplements for a reason:rolleyes:

I am sure there are plenty of other ways most athletes could greatly improve their lot, before spending big bucks every month on "supplements".

How many guys/gals actually eat decent. Sleep decent. Train decent. Live decent. Not many, so I say work on those issues and spend the money on some fancy wheels, before trying to manipulate your cells with stuff it probably didn't need.

Besides, isn't there a bit of a moral dilemma in taking these things. We pounce on pros for always trying to take the easy way out and then raid GNC every week, 'cause we're too lazy to change the list above first.

So I have no idea why this particular supplement caught my eye--probably more aggressive advertising, but I was wondering if anyone's used Optygen. Seems like there's some OK science to back the stuff up and some favorable reviews out there, but I was curious to hear some other experiences.


If you want a edge over your cat 5 racers, just dope

Shortcuts can be avoided by eating healthier, sleeping more and training proper.

Let's assume Pete has these covered.;)

Here's a site with a bit more info if you're interested.
http://www.supplementwatch.com/reviews/doc.asp?docId=1749&templateId=101&categoryId=234&categoryName=Endurance

Let's assume Pete has these covered.;)

Yeah, I had no intent to ditch my training and nutrition over the stuff...

spunky, thanks for the link. I use some other references for herbals/etc. because some of them can have pretty impressive interactions that become very important when you're operating on them, but I hadn't seen that site.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15076794

perhaps you might be less convinced if you checked a scientific study. just guessing!

-Bullseye

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15076794

perhaps you might be less convinced if you checked a scientific study. just guessing!

-Bullseye

Strangely resembles post #5. But thanks for being patronizing. N=17 with relatively small differences between groups is the sign of a study lacking statistical power--hardly a slam-dunk one way or the other. But I'm sure you already knew that.

So I have no idea why this particular supplement caught my eye--probably more aggressive advertising, but I was wondering if anyone's used Optygen. Seems like there's some OK science to back the stuff up and some favorable reviews out there, but I was curious to hear some other experiences.

wait a minute. something is wrong woth this picture. an MD, who has an IQ that's higher than 99% of the folk here, is asking for our opinion on a supplement? ;)

The supplement facts look good:
Chromium (as Chelavite® amino acid Chelate) 200mcg 167%
Cordyceps CS-4 (Cordyceps Sinensis) (mycelia biomass) minimum 7% cordycepic acid 1000mg *
ATProTM Matrix (Calcium Pyruvate, Sodium Phosphate, Potassium Phosphate, Ribose, Adenosine) 800mg *
Rhodiola Extract (Rhodiola Rosea)(root) minimum 2.5% salidrosidesminimum 3.0% rosavins 300mg *
Oleosus Serpens


chromium- not really a deficient element.
mycelia biomass: dirt bacteria
ATP promatrix: these components generate ATP in vitro, but will have no effect by ingestion (if this worked, it would be a Nobel prize).
Rhodiola- little efficacy ever proven
Olesus serpens is literally snake oil.

Like that paper concludes, 100% bs, like most supplement mixes.

heh, if it actually does all of that, I doubt its legal.

I know several guys who race at a level where they are tested, they use it, they say it works, and they have all passed every test.

I have used it and it helps me.

I have used it and it helps me.

In what ways?

Shortcuts can be avoided by eating healthier, sleeping more and training proper.

Have you told Johan Museeuw this? He could have avoided all that trouble.

;)

I know several guys who race at a level where they are tested, they use it, they say it works, and they have all passed every test.

I have used it and it helps me.

That's cool then. I tend to work under the assumption that supplements that actually work are usually illegal. If you say it works and is legal, I might just give it a try.

If you want a edge over your cat 5 racers, just dope

I fail to see how this will give you an edge ;)

In what ways?

Simply, I ride further at a faster speed...if I really want to crank, my HR does not go up as quickly. I notice this more in the morning if I am doing an anerobic trainer workout, or going for a ride. Where my hr has been down due to sleep and I get up, for me the warm up, getting my HR up and getting things opened up for a ride is easier if I use this stuff.

Could all be in my head and I have not measured it specifically, but I do note that I don't get to lactate HR as quickly. I can work harder on my trainer, too.

Your mileage may vary.

I know a couple of guys who I sometimes ride with that are subject, on their jobs to spot drug testing. They have used this without a problem.

This is in no way a warranty...I tried it and liked the results. That's about it.

One of the local uber fast guys swears by the stuff. He says the next best stuff is by Hammer.

That's cool then. I tend to work under the assumption that supplements that actually work are usually illegal. If you say it works and is legal, I might just give it a try.

For what it's worth, First Endurance/Optygen is now a sponsor for Discovery. Some of the Health Net guys have used it and endorsed it.

I like it...

Simply, I ride further at a faster speed...if I really want to crank, my HR does not go up as quickly. I notice this more in the morning if I am doing an anerobic trainer workout, or going for a ride. Where my hr has been down due to sleep and I get up, for me the warm up, getting my HR up and getting things opened up for a ride is easier if I use this stuff.

Could all be in my head and I have not measured it specifically, but I do note that I don't get to lactate HR as quickly. I can work harder on my trainer, too.

Your mileage may vary.

I know a couple of guys who I sometimes ride with that are subject, on their jobs to spot drug testing. They have used this without a problem.

This is in no way a warranty...I tried it and liked the results. That's about it.

If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

So what?

I know several riders who ride at a level significanlty higher than most out here that like it.

Use it, don't use it...

To a certain degree I agree with DocRay that some of the stuff we take is just for the 'mental' boost it provides. But mental or not the boost is there and if it's doing it's job through science or because I clicked my heals three times I don't care, as long as I think it's working.

Strangely resembles post #5. But thanks for being patronizing. N=17 with relatively small differences between groups is the sign of a study lacking statistical power--hardly a slam-dunk one way or the other. But I'm sure you already knew that.
You do remember that you are posting in BF, yes?

Pretty sure this means butkus to majority of the readers.

As some here have stated, eating right, training right and getting good quality sleep are very important. I use Hammer HEED and Recoverite as well as Hammer gels. The Recoverite works well, and yes I could get the same amount of needed elements by eating a balanced meal after a hard workout. The problem is two fold, first my stomach couldn't handle all that solid food at that time, and second it would take to long to prepare it. I can drink a bottle, get what I need then eat when I'm able. Supplements can be both helpful and useful.

Hey DrPete:

I have actually used the stuff. I cannot quantitatively say that it it works. I'm pretty sure it doesn't not work. I am not care free enough to do a control, of sorts, on myself .. I continue to eat properly, get adequate sleep and train hard when I can when I'm on the stuff. I was on the bike less frequently in 2006, but when I did ride AND was on the stuff, I was fresher for longer.

I don't race, so I can't speak to the competitive edge.

I actually experiment with a few other things, just to see the effect on my ability to endure. When I do, I cycle on for 1 month. Then off for 3 weeks. Then I may or may not repeat, depending on a whole host of reasons .. love of my kidneys being a primary one.

Said other things: Flax Seed Oil, Potassium, Calcium Stearate, Caffeine, Magnessium, SportsLegs .. and on occassion, Sucrose.

Placebo affect

I agree, it's most probably the placebo effect. I don't think N=17 is all that bad. Testing for only two weeks seems the weak part of the study. I've been taking high doses of resveratrol for a few months and for what it's worth I think/know I am getting stronger. The problem is N=1 is not worth much. Placebo's are very powerful. For what it's worth, here is some more info to make it a N=18 from Outside Mag on Optygen:


Bodywork: Lab Rat
Revving Up
Can a performance supplement be legal, healthy, and effective? The Lab Rat pops a fistful to find out.

By Nick Heil
THERE COMES A TIME in every athlete's life when he's tempted to add a little something special to his training regimen, and these days the possibilities are many and creepy: andro, HGH, EPO—maybe a little synthetic testosterone, Floyd? Since I'm committed to keeping it safe—and legal—high-octane bulk builders are out. Plus I'm not after a bod like the latest James Bond's. I have a multisport race coming up in February, and what I really want is to transcend my standard performance as a grimacing mid-packer. All I need is enough extra voltage to get me there.

A while back I heard about a supplement called Optygen, made by First Endurance, that would ostensibly improve my lactate threshold and VO2 max by as much as 20 percent. What's more, Optygen, a new sponsor of Team Discovery, has been enthusiastically endorsed by Tour de France veterans like David Zabriskie. I called up First Endurance cofounder Mike Fogarty to ask whether Optygen might work for me. "Oh, yeah," he said. "After a week or two it will take you to the next level." Sweet!

First Endurance set me up on a course of Optygen ($50 for a one-month supply) and a few of the company's other products, including multivitamins and a high-tech recovery-beverage mix called Ultragen, which replaced my previous low-tech recovery drink, called margarita. The weeklong loading phase required me to choke down six pills a day, plus three daily multivitamins. After a week, I eased off to a slightly less gaggable three capsules a day, but that was still a total of six. I knew the stuff was supposed to keep me young, but the pill diet was making me feel old.

Optygen relies on an alchemy of ingredients that theoretically helps your body cope with stress while simultaneously aiding the conversion of oxygen into fuel. Its punch comes from a pair of herbs—rhodiola and cordyceps—and the mineral chromium. Rhodiola's ability to help alleviate the effects of altitude has been touted for decades by Sherpas who chew the herb like tobacco while working on Everest. Cordyceps is used in traditional Chinese medicine as an energy booster and sex aid. Chromium, an essential mineral, plays a key role in glucose metabolism and insulin regulation.

Since few formal controls exist for supplements (they aren't regulated by the FDA, and double-blind studies are expensive), I ran it by Dave Ellis, a registered dietitian and conditioning specialist in Colorado Springs who works regularly with pro athletes. Ellis preaches about the virtues of real food but isn't against supplements. He thought there was some legitimacy to the Optygen formula, though he couldn't say if it would work "synergistically," as First Endurance claimed. "You probably don't need to use them as much as they'd like you to use them," he counseled. "Exercise first, then a good diet, then supplements."

Fair enough, but my workouts were kicking my ass, and I was eating right. So after my Optygen-loading phase, I headed out to a local trail—a 3.5-mile loop that features two punishing climbs—to see if anything had changed. I'd been running the route regularly as a kind of yardstick to measure my fitness gains, and my best time to date was 34:45. I ticked off the first half of the route at a steady tempo, but on the final hill I felt... terrible. Of course, I always suffered here, but what a letdown. When I finished, I dutifully checked my watch. I'd felt slow as lava, but there was my time flashing back at me: 31 minutes and nine seconds.

Then came my bike ride. On a warm, sunny Saturday in November, a few friends and I rode from Santa Fe to Taos—a stunningly scenic 75-mile trip with a spirit-crushing climb at the end. On the final push I was feeling good, so I dropped the hammer. Midway up, I looked back to discover that my friends were nowhere in sight. I topped out with enough time to change a flat before they showed up.

Was it the result of the Optygen? It's impossible to say. All I know is that I felt great. Hell, I didn't go to the next level; I skipped a level altogether. Either the stuff kicked in or I just experienced an extremely powerful—and rewarding— placebo effect. If the same thing happens come race day, I won't care either way.

http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200702/lab-rat-performance-supplements.html

Two of the ingredients are adaptogens:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptogen



The guidelines created for a herb to be considered an adaptogen are:

It must cause only minimal disorders in the body's physiological functions;
It must increase the body's resistance to adverse influences not by a specific action but by a wide range of physical, chemical, and biochemical factors;
It must have an overall normalizing effect, improving all kinds of conditions and aggravating none

Notice that Cordyceps and Rhodiola Rosea appear in wiki's article.

I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.

And it seems like a pretty well-done study. There are some definite trends there, but the n is way too small to make it statistically significant. My only question is, who are these Cat 3/4 cyclists with peak power outputs of 300W? That seems a bit strange.

Impossible. That's got to be a 30 minute average.

Saying all supplements are snake oil with no scientific evidence is snake oil in and of itself.

I take a number of supplements for a variety of purposes (joint pain, antioxidants, Etc) , most have been scientifically verified, some haven't. One (glucosamine) has been Chesapeake verified, dogs being pretty immune to the placebo effect.

What needs to be remembered when looking at the studies is often the results are quantified to a particular statistical "break" point. If they test 100 people and only 8 show improvement, often the study concludes that the product, based on "only" a 8% success rate, doesn't work. If the study is well controlled the question isn't really if the product works or not, it's if you might be one of the 8% it does work for.

Remember that everybody is different genetically, environmentally, and in their state of physical conditioning.

From what I've seen/read about Optygen and it's various ingredients, most of the ingredients in there have either anecdotal evidence or small study evidence to support their use. If you got the bucks you could give it a shot. It might or might not work for you, YOU/ME being the word that ought to be added on to a lot of reviews and opinions here at BF.

I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.

you work on that and i'll try this stuff (http://4extenze.com/) and post pictures of the results.

If you take 100 people and give them something to ingest with a claimed effect, about 1/3 will swear that it works, 1/3 with swear that it had a negative effect, 1/3 will claim no effect, regardless of what it is.

This has been tested repeatedly, the placebo effect, and it's the basis for the supplements industry and the snake oil industry for hundreds of years. As long as the stuff is not toxic, no one cares. Of course you won't score on a drug test, it has no medicinal ingredients.

http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

Sort of. If you gave them all steroids, regardless of their claims/expectations, I'll bet they'll all gain muscle (if they're working out) to enough of a degree that none of them can say it doesn't work. Same thing with EPO for endurance athletes. And I think THAT is the key. Drugs will make immense changes, but all these legal "supplements" may help you but it's a 1-3% change, so if you're not already at a peak state, it's not worth it.

I started my optygem today. I'll give report back after I go through the 'load' phase then weekly as I empty the bottle. I figure one bottle should be a good enough test.

FYI....if you like it, you can buy the primary ingredients separately, cordyceps and rhodiola, for a lot cheaper. I think it was Davis Phinney that said even if something is a placebo, if you think it helps you take it. You'll ride stronger.

you work on that and i'll try this stuff (http://4extenze.com/) and post pictures of the results.

Ha! You keep your pix thank you very much!!!

I'm sticking with Oreos. Thanks though.

I think supplementation is absolutely necessary if you're a serious cyclist. An athlete should seriously consider Cal/Mag, Omega 3-6-9, Zinc (actually Zinc-Magnesium Aspartate before bed), and a really good Multi. I think those are the absolute minimum. I'd also throw in extra Vitamin C, A/D, B-Complex, E, and Selenium. All this depends on the quality of your Multi though. I have a 3-a-day multi by Progressive for athletes. Iron is absolutely essential as well. I spend my money wisely I think. I've tried some recovery potions and phosphates but really stick with the anti-oxidants, healthy oils and (first and most important) the cal/mag.

Calcium/Magnesium/Zinc is also supposed to help with cramping.

I think supplementation is absolutely necessary if you're a serious cyclist. An athlete should seriously consider Cal/Mag, Omega 3-6-9, Zinc (actually Zinc-Magnesium Aspartate before bed), and a really good Multi. I think those are the absolute minimum. I'd also throw in extra Vitamin C, A/D, B-Complex, E, and Selenium. All this depends on the quality of your Multi though. I have a 3-a-day multi by Progressive for athletes. Iron is absolutely essential as well. I spend my money wisely I think. I've tried some recovery potions and phosphates but really stick with the anti-oxidants, healthy oils and (first and most important) the cal/mag.

You should really talk to a doc about the iron, you should never take it unless you are anemic or under doctors orders. I do agree about the other vitamins though.

You should really talk to a doc about the iron, you should never take it unless you are anemic or under doctors orders. I do agree about the other vitamins though.

+1. Unless you have some reason to supplement it (which you probably don't), then there is a risk of iron toxicity.

+1. Unless you have some reason to supplement it (which you probably don't), then there is a risk of iron toxicity.

Well there ya have it..right from the Doctors key board!

Maybe training IS for wussy, R600DuraAce you should get some of this stuff. You might get out of your 3 year Cat 4 rut.

What would you suggest for a 14 year Cat 4 rut?

I prefer Endurox