Training & Nutrition - Another weapon in the war against being fat.

I've discovered and am using another method in addition to Atkins in my war against being fat.

It is called Stacker 3. It is a Ephedra based product. But unlike others you take this one right after you eat rather then 45 min before that way you do not suffer with nausea in the time before you eat & you only take this one 3 times a day versus up to 5 times with other ephedra products.

Come Thursday the 9th, (this week), I may find in taking these steps to lose weight I can avoid a trip to the operating room and no longer be a candidate for the lap-band procedure. That is if my BMI is low enough. I hope thats the case.

So far so good with my weight loss.

Now for the results as of this morning. When I started I weighed about 304 pounds. At 5' 11" tall that is a lot of weight! I started Atkins on Monday April 21st, 2003, & I started with the Stacker 3 on May2nd, 2003. As of this morning I weigh about 282 pounds. So that is a total loss of 22 pounds in only about 2.5 weeks time.

Not bad huh? I plan to keep going I have a long way to go yet.

How wbout the rest of you losing weight? Please tell of your success.

I'm not going to rehash things. Here is my post from another thread.


let's get one misconception straight, ephedra like products or speed does not increase metabolism!

if you put people on ephedra and do pre and post metabolic rates, they do not change! They purely function by slamming down the appetite . It is also a performance enhancer that allows (body builders) to push beyond muscle fatigue where they get most of the "muscle building" It's good for short, anarobic activity such as sprints, but has not been shown to really enhance long distance, aerobic activity. Ephedra increases the heart rate, blood pressure etc. by increasing "sympathetic tone", or activating the symphathetic nervous system. Deconditioned couch potatoes have higher resting heart rates and blood pressure but that does not make them have faster metabolisms. They have high sympathetic tone vs. Lance who has low sympathetic tone with a resting heart rate of 30.

I guess the death of the 23 yr old Baltimore Oriole pitcher who died from ephedra does not scare anybody.

There have been over 1400 reported adverse events and probably 78 deaths related to ephedra. To put this in perspective Phen-phen and redux diet pills were linked to eight deaths and was ripped off the prescription shelf. Baycol, a cholesterol medicine that killed 20 people was banned worldwide. (the latter was not even dangerous by itself, it only killed if combined with another cholesterol medicine called gemfibrozil). So why does this not send the message home? The only reason why ephedra is not an illegal amphetamine is due to the fact that legal loopholes were put in place. Like amphetamines, after 3 months of usage your body will requre more to have the same effect; a phenomenom called tolerance in physiology.

True, alot of the adverse events were in people who took ephedra with caffeine and probably took more than the recommended amount. However, the FDA is putting out a statement tht anything more than 25 mcg a day for 7 days may be too dangerous. The FDA does not have the control it does over prescription drugs so do not expect it to do much in terms of protecting the public.

In addition, these diet supplements have other contaminants that can affect the liver and kidneys. One of the metabolite impersonators contains lyapholised or dessicated bovine pituitary gland (this is essentially freeze dried cow brain matter) which illegally provides thyroid like compounds. lyapholised brain matter does not kill prions, the organisms that cause Kuru, Jakob-Creutzfeld disease and their Euopean counterpart Mad Cow disease which are central nervous system diseases that kill quickly by rendering people into demented, squirming, incontinant beings that die an undignified death.


So have at it. (Would you like a glass of chianti with that cow brain?)

Just do it the old fashioned way, eat less, ride more.


Here is the link for further discussions and i do comment on studies specifically using xenidrine.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=202428#post202428

Originally posted by cbhungry
"There have been over 1400 reported adverse events and probably 78 deaths related to ephedra. To put this in perspective "...



Gotta love those words "probably" and "related to" used in cases like this.

How many adverse events and deaths have been attributed to bathroom cabinet medications such as aspirin and paracetemol I wonder? Define "adverse event".

I don't buy it. Scaremongering. Just my opinion though.








p.s. Pop Quiz - what do you think kills more people - ephedrine products or obesity?

To be honest I used it for years and would probably still use it if I had an 'in' but the product is illegal in Canada and very hard to get a hold of at reasonable prices. I also believe it is fearmongering as 'most' of those cases especially early on were related to overdoses (dumbasses) or in combination with drugs (for example due to its relathionship with speed people combined it with halucinegenics in order to modify the effects - danger danger). The majority of people who take a regular healthy dosage had very few side affects beyond weight loss and a being a little more awak then usual.

Pop quiz answer - no clue of the numbers but if you relate obesity directly to many diseases I am sure the numbers are incredible. :)

I did notice one statement that was completely right when it comes to any drug (including these supplements) and thats the ever running need to increase the dosage in order to to continue having an affect and this is where the danger really lies. However with a properly cycled supplement routine this affect is minimal. when I used to be a gym rat everyone who took these supplements would cycle them in the proper way.

Anyways I don't care to argue as I have hashed this out many many times before on this site and others, the studies have only proven that there are many dumbasses in the world the enjoy being scared.

And BTW arg another point to dispute in that statement is the non affect on metabolic rate and ONLY affecting appetite. Thats a load of crap. Ephedrine has been proven time and time again to have a direct affect on body temperatue. It is actually considered a thermogenic not a metabolic supplement. This affect on body temperature is where a lot of the weight loss occurs (according to more studies) So you are correct it doesn't affect your metabolism but 5 years ago I don't remember them claiming this as it was advertised as a thermogenic.

Originally posted by N_C
Now for the results as of this morning. When I started I weighed about 304 pounds. At 5' 11" tall that is a lot of weight! I started Atkins on Monday April 21st, 2003, & I started with the Stacker 3 on May2nd, 2003. As of this morning I weigh about 282 pounds. So that is a total loss of 22 pounds in only about 2.5 weeks time.

Congrats on the weight loss. I don't want to put a damper on things as that is incredible but loosing that much weight is dangerous (not death dangerous just loosing muscle dangerous). Have you ever though of doing body composition tests. That much weight loss SURELY means muscle loss as well which is not healthy.

Again congrats I remember when I lost my first 20 pounds back in the day and man did I feel good. Started playing bball again and really felt light weight. Totally cool feeling. :)

Gotta love those words "probably" and "related to" used in cases like this.

ad.verse events and deaths have been attributed to bathroom cabinet medications such as aspirin and paracetemol I wonder? Define "adverse event".

I don't buy it. Scaremongering. Just my opinion though

Actually the orioles pitcher death was definately felt to be due to the ephedra after the autopsy report. His family is bringing suit against xenadrine The reason why we can only say probably is due the fact that over the counter drugs have no legal obligation to report adverse effects and post marketing surveillance unlike prescription drugs. So it depends on secondary observors such as physicians, emergency rooms etc.

And yes, the most dangerous drugs are still asprin and acetaminophen. When I was on a liver transpant service, we transplanted most people due to hep c or intentional/unintentional over use of tylenol. (Never for cholesterol meds which the media hypes up) Asprin would not be approved by FDA if it was just invented.(when it came out, the FDA was not under the guidlines for approving drugs as it is now.) It has killed close to a million people since its inception. It doesn't scare people that a country has banned ephedra as illegal (Canada). Maelstorm is right, alot of it is used incorrectley, which probably means it should be made prescription so that it can be monitored like some of the other prescription diet pills. (But then look what happened to redux. and phen phen. )However, there was close post marketing surveillance which xenadrine is not obligated to report.

"You would think that with the deck this stacked against ephedrine/caffeine, there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of people dropping like flies.

How many people do you think take ephedrine/caffeine products each year? It's in the billions of doses.

The University of California San Francisco conducted a study (funded by the FDA), looking at 140 "adverse events" reported to have been caused by ephedrine products. There was no mention of how many years it took to collect the 140 cases, but in other studies, periods of seven to eight years are required to find this many events. Out of these 140 events reported by physicians of ephedrine causing problems, the study could only find 87 of them had any relationship to ephedrine at all. To get to this number, they had to lump together all of the "definitely", "probably", and "possibly" caused by ephedrine together. They didn't say how many of each.

How many people died? Ten."



Link (http://www.snsonline.com/articles/ephedrine.shtml)













Also, on a UK page:-

"It is estimated that each year in the U.K. over 110,000 people die from tobacco-related diseases, particularly from cancer, respiratory diseases and heart disease.

Estimates of annual alcohol-related deaths vary from 28,000 to 40,000. This includes deaths from cirrhosis of the liver and other health problems from long-term drinking, deliberate and accidental overdose, traffic deaths, fatal accidents while drunk etc."


Any drinkers or smokers here throwing stones in glass houses?

;)


Link (http://www.drugscope.org.uk/druginfo/drugsearch/faq_template.asp?file=%5Cwip%5C11%5C1%5C2%5Cmanydie.html)

Deaths are not the only endpoints. I've seen myocardial infarctions in the wake of recent ephedra use, hypertensive crisis that required intravenous nitroglycerin to get it down, etc... these don't make it to statistics. Remember, there is no obligation to report these adverse events so we are seeing an underestimate of the damage it can cause. But because physicians are scientists, exact blame cannot be pegged on these supplements without a large cohort trial. I'll look into this study you mentioned by UCA.

And don't even mention alcohol and tobacco. That's comparing apples to oranges. For years the tobacco industry denied there was any proof it caused any harm, so I'm not going that route.

Originally posted by cbhungry
Deaths are not the only endpoints. I've seen myocardial infarctions in the wake of recent ephedra use, hypertensive crisis that required intravenous nitroglycerin to get it down, etc... these don't make it to statistics. Remember, there is no obligation to report these adverse events so we are seeing an underestimate of the damage it can cause. But because physicians are scientists, exact blame cannot be pegged on these supplements without a large cohort trial. I'd like to see this study you mentioned by UCA.



And hospitals up and down the country are inundated at weekends with alcohol related injuries.

I'd like alcohol banned before we cast our eyes over ephedrine.

I'd like it banned too, (tobacco and alcohol) but that does not preclude the dangers of ephedra.

Originally posted by cbhungry
And don't even mention alcohol and tobacco. That's comparing apples to oranges.


They're all narcotics at the end of the day which affect the body in certain ways, so no, it's NOT apples and oranges.

I'll take my chances with ephedrine over alcohol or tobacco anyday.

Originally posted by cbhungry
I'd like it banned too, (tobacco and alcohol) but that does not preclude the dangers of ephedra.


I agree, but it certainly puts things into perspective. Ephedrine is a tiddler on the bad boy drug board.

By the way, I like the link's mention of an 8 week trial. Phen phen did not produce heart valve damage until 3 months of use and tobacco does not wreak havoc until years of use. He is committing the first fallacy of clincical trials interpretation, "no long term conclusions can be made from short term studies especially when it comes to safety. " I still don't see the exact study by FDA. And since we know how the media screws up interpretations of clinical trials I need to see it first hand.

Basically, like you, I don't think it's more dangerous than tobacco and alcohol but a lesser evil does not make it less worrisome or the fact that we should allow unchecked use and see more people getting hurt. At the same time, I do not want the FDA to have complete political and legal authority over the over the counter supplement industry since good products can sit on the shelf for years before it can be approved in much the same way excellent novel therapies for cancer etc. are rotting away until the FDA formally approves of them.

I don't think ephedra ought to be banned. I also believe that it can be used safely.

That doesn't mean that most folks are using it correctly. I do believe that it is dangerous and that it is both misused and overused.

What bothers me most about ephedra is the way that it is marketed as a "quick-fix" instant weight loss product. This marketing tactic leads directly to misuse of the product.

I would not choose to use it, because it scares me, and there are better ways to lose weight or build muscle. I have known folks who have used it effectively (mostly weightlifters).

Dan

First of all thanks for the responses. Though it was not my intention to spark a debate. But none-the-less sorry about that.

Second I was on the prescribed Phen-Fen for about 2.5 months, I was only to be on it for 3 months, thats all my dr. would allow. 2 weeks before I was due to stop taking it the FDA had it pulled form the market. I lost a lot of weight, about 80 to 90 pounds all together. At the rate of about 35 pounds a week. Do I regret taking it? Yes, I do now. Why? The side affects were horrible to say the least. I won't go into it but now I often think it was not worth what I went through to lose the weight. And I put it all back on and then some. This was 6 years ago now. And yes I had a ultra-sound done on my heart, no damage to any of the valves.

Furthermore, yes I am aware how products like Stacker 1, 2, & 3, and xanadrine & herbal Phen-fen work. And they are effective if taken properly. You can find all of these at your local GNC here in the U.S.

Finally yes I am concerned about muscle loss. But as part of the Atkins diet, consuming all the protein I do, that should help counter act against the muscle loss. So far no adverse affectcs from the diet as far as the way I feel or anything like that. Hopefully it continues this way. Oh & I am also taking a multi-vitamine to help with my nutrition as well.

Again thanks.

Originally posted by belfast-biker
p.s. Pop Quiz - what do you think kills more people - ephedrine products or obesity?


Oooh ooh I know I know, pic me!!!

Ephedrine: if it kills some, it's still better than cigarettes, and those aren't banned.

(and ephedra ain't nearly as addictive)

Originally posted by cbhungry
I'd like it banned too, (tobacco and alcohol) but that does not preclude the dangers of ephedra.

But why would you ban either?

So long as people know the affects (warning labels), and don't hurt others, and are physcally (money) responsible, why bother?

In my humble opinion, raise the price on both by 300%, the money to go help out schools, etc.

In nature, the dumb creatures die off. Let those who use and abuse kill themselves off.

Let those who practise normal, healthy consumption, enjoy it.

Let those who don't like it all, not be affected by it's use.

So long as people know the affects (warning labels), and don't hurt others, and are physcally (money) responsible, why bother?

The problem is that these products do not provide adequate warning labels.

If they did, it might be a different story. At least cigarette labels now state it is harmful to babies and can cause cancer.


Although if I had to lobby for outlawing any contraband it would be tobacco rather than ephedra. (or be smart like Canada and tax the hell out of cigarettes as well as eliminate ephedra).


Also the less addicitve part does not hold water. You are right about the addiction potential of nicotine....the surgeon general has labelled nicotine the most addictive drug, more so than heroin or cocaine, but that does not legitamize the latter two.

Originally posted by belfast-biker
"You would think that with the deck this stacked against ephedrine/caffeine, there would be hundreds, if not thousands, of people dropping like flies.

How many people do you think take ephedrine/caffeine products each year? It's in the billions of doses.

The University of California San Francisco conducted a study (funded by the FDA), looking at 140 "adverse events" reported to have been caused by ephedrine products. There was no mention of how many years it took to collect the 140 cases, but in other studies, periods of seven to eight years are required to find this many events. Out of these 140 events reported by physicians of ephedrine causing problems, the study could only find 87 of them had any relationship to ephedrine at all. To get to this number, they had to lump together all of the "definitely", "probably", and "possibly" caused by ephedrine together. They didn't say how many of each.

How many people died? Ten."



One person dying to lose weight is one too many.

There are no magic pills and diets DO NOT WORK. The majority of people in the world taking ephedrine are doing so without being under a doctors care and they tend to ignore warning signs that can lead to death.











Also, on a UK page:-

"It is estimated that each year in the U.K. over 110,000 people die from tobacco-related diseases, particularly from cancer, respiratory diseases and heart disease.

Estimates of annual alcohol-related deaths vary from 28,000 to 40,000. This includes deaths from cirrhosis of the liver and other health problems from long-term drinking, deliberate and accidental overdose, traffic deaths, fatal accidents while drunk etc."


Any drinkers or smokers here throwing stones in glass houses?

;)


Link (http://www.drugscope.org.uk/druginfo/drugsearch/faq_template.asp?file=%5Cwip%5C11%5C1%5C2%5Cmanydie.html)

Call me silly and old fashioned but I just don't see why people take chances with the "quick fix diets" when just a well balanced healthy diet combined with a good exercise regime can cause you to lose weight just not in 2 weeks. No adverse side effects (unless you think feeling good about yourself is adverse :) ) I have asked this before when it comes to all theses supplements, which are not new and diets (atkins in particular) is where are all the people who did this years ago why haven't there been any endorsements from them about how well the product helped them to lose weight and to KEEP IT OFF?
And the government telling me it is safe or me trusting the reliability of there research findings I will just go by their past history, they said DDT was safe and sprayed around on us and our food. I am not telling you all how to lose weight I just hope that you are looking at both sides oif the picture not just the one that justifies your cause.

N_C Good job on the weight loss .Keep it up.As to the muscle loss that usually becomes more of an issue the lower your bodyfat becomes so that is another reason you will want to alter your strategy as your bodyfat becomes lower. A negative I have heard mention with rapid fatloss is permanent stretch marks where the skin does not have time to adapt to the new fat levels.As to the ephedrene this has been debated before and I don't want to get into it this time other than to say you are smart to take it with food (if you use it at all)and I would also consider cycling it (as Maelstrom mentioned)and limit its use with athletic activity(particularly strenuous)including bike riding.

Originally posted by cbhungry
It doesn't scare people that a country has banned ephedra as illegal (Canada). Maelstorm is right, alot of it is used incorrectley, which probably means it should be made prescription so that it can be monitored like some of the other prescription diet pills. (But then look what happened to redux. and phen phen. )However, there was close post marketing surveillance which xenadrine is not obligated to report.

To be honest I have no faith in my gov't when it comes to regulations of supplements and drugs. I believe like most they jump the gun in allowing drugs through and fail in restrictions of supplements. Just my thing. At heart I don't trust large organizations who in ways receive funding and support from drug companies. Especially when they try to define what I can take. Take a look at phen phen (like you said ;)), unproven drug suddenly hyped like no tommorow but failed miserably (as per usual). Ephedra has been used for a century I think with few adverse effect AND it works. Ephedra with a little control and EDUCATION could be a life saver for many obese people WITHOUT heart issues. And again it is easy to use with recreational drugs for fun which is actually the part the is scarey, hwoever banning ephedra didn't stop this trend anyways. I am sure the gov't doesn't like Ephedra because it is readily available , easy to create (in combination), market AND cheap. This means they can't squeeze all the money out of it they would with say phen phen. So yes canada banned it but that means about as much as your gov't clasifying ALL steroids as an addictive drug on par with heroin...

Ironically no supplement or drug made (except speed itself) has ever been truly effective as a weight loss supplement. But the gov't continues approving useless 'water' pills and marketing them. Sad situation for people who do have serious problems loosing weight.

Originally posted by SellingEngland
One person dying to lose weight is one too many.


I don't accept this sort of black and white soundbite. Nothing is that simple - EVERYTHING we do is a risk!

You could equally say "One person dying from a traffic accident is one too many" - should we seperate cars and pedestrians totally? make helmets IN cars compulsory? Put speed limiters in cars?

From what Ive read the most effective method for losing weight is the old fashioned way,hard work and some willpower.....the more exercise the less willpower involved as far as eating goes.That being said,why the heck would anyone take a drug that may or may not do damage the their body and may or may not have side effects?Its a quick fix at best,you cant stay on it,and the reasons why a person usually gets obese isnt due to any drugs but usually bad lifestyle choices.Using pills to temporarily make the weight go away still isnt gonna cause a lifestyle change LOL.....unless it kills you or causes permanent damage.Youve said it yourself NC,youve lost weight using drugs....it was temporary,the weight is back.....hmm more drugs again and atkins too !!!! Sounds like a bad idea to me IMHO. Ive got a free weight loss plan for anyone that wants to try it.....you'll lose weight whether you want to or not and feel good about it,and most importantly keep it off.There's one catch,it involves a permanent lifetime commitment and takes 12-14months to get down to a reasonable healthy target weight.

Trust the FDA with the drug safety approval process.....no freakin way,I have too many family members that have tried newly approved drugs lately with very bad consequences.

Originally posted by ngateguy
Call me silly and old fashioned but I just don't see why people take chances with the "quick fix diets" when just a well balanced healthy diet combined with a good exercise regime can cause you to lose weight just not in 2 weeks. No adverse side effects (unless you think feeling good about yourself is adverse :) ) I have asked this before when it comes to all theses supplements, which are not new and diets (atkins in particular) is where are all the people who did this years ago why haven't there been any endorsements from them about how well the product helped them to lose weight and to KEEP IT OFF?

I think I have answered this before but I will simply put some people can't loose fat. I have been working out for 10+ years now and carry around a lot of muscle. I eat leanly and now bike in abundance. Initially I lost bucket loads of weight which was fine however then I stagnated. I knew I could loose more by dropping more calories (and could now) but don't want to sacrifice muscle. Ephedra stacks (asprin and caffeine) specifically has 3 side affects. Increases body temp to burn fat, decreases appetite (the only side affect I don't like) and increase muscle retention. This allows me to burn ONLY fat while maintaining and building muscle which is a very very long term solution to body fat problems. I would NEVER take this supplement without some sort of anaerobic routine to increase muscle in order to maintain the fat loss otherwise the fat would simply come back. It is not a quick fix but with the right training program a very educated way to burn fat and keep or build muscle. :)

Cheers.

Well,

On the note of the theme, Crack cocaine will make you skinny.

Not a lot of people doing that for the wieght loss benefits.

I say tax the @#$# out of ciagarettes.

I used to smoke. And as a kid, money would drive how much I did smoke. If you made it 10 dollars a pack, hooo boy, I would have dropped it like a bad habit. (pun, in cheek there).

The great American psyche: I want instant gratification. I want to lose weight and I want to lose it NOW!

Why bother with diets, drugs, or exercise? Even tummy tucks and lap bands take time. If you want weight loss and you want it now, sign up for liposuction. It may be painful, but the pain goes away and you don't have to give up any bad habits.

I, as a fat man, know all too well the reasons for my obesity. Too much material shoved down the esophagous and too little sweat out the pores. After I had a scare from rapid heart rate and palpitations, I decided to save my sorry butt and reverse the ratio. Less fat in and more sweat out. In the last year I've gone from able to ride about 4 miles with a reasting heart rate of 75 to regularly riding 60 miles with a resting heart rate of about 45. I stil have a ways to go, but I make steady progress and keep at it.

I take no diet drugs and eat a sensible balanced diet. No starvation, just common sense. The weight doesn't fall off at 10 lbs per week, but it will probably not come back at 10 lbs a week next month.

Well, Will...lol first i like your signature :) second, smoking crack is even better: two habits into one time space. yeah drugs make you lose weight, so does control.. something a lot of us need to make part of our lives, myself included.
i gave up refined sugar( for health reasons) 8 days ago..lol and tonight i ran out of veggies and was ravenous... so i gave myself a cheat day.. decided to make it monday :) i have to tell you that the chocolate bar tasted like...shhh um chalk.. it was bleechhhhhhhhh. i thought it was the chocolate bar so i ate a piece of licorice... ewwwwwwwwwy. it was me..:( sugar and me don't get along anymore and no one in my family will ever believe me..!
getting back to ephedra.. sure it has been around a long time, and it's in all the diet products...BUT, looking at hydroxycut, Diet Fuel, Stacker..etc. they also advise EXERCISE and a proper Diet to go along with the supplement to make it work that fast. Even Atkins promotes exercise to help fill in that sagging
skin and make the diet work better.
key words...Works better with a healthy diet and exercise.

Pills didn't make you fat, and they won't make you thin either.

Originally posted by William Karsten
Well,

On the note of the theme, Crack cocaine will make you skinny.

Not a lot of people doing that for the wieght loss benefits.

I say tax the @#$# out of ciagarettes.

I used to smoke. And as a kid, money would drive how much I did smoke. If you made it 10 dollars a pack, hooo boy, I would have dropped it like a bad habit. (pun, in cheek there).

Check Canada. We have almost doubled the price of cigs...very cool cause now they are paying for future repairs :D

Cycling, in any form, in my humble opinion, is the best way to lose weight--ephedra usage or no. I'm living proof--after I popped my last (third) kid, I weighed 200 lbs. This was eight years ago, and now I'm down to 135--strictly from taking up serious cycling 2 1/2 years ago. Admittedly, the usage of ephedra helps in controlling the appetite, but it's important to know one's own physiology before taking it--people with existing heart problems should NOT take it (obviously). For those of us who can take it safely, though, I endorse it, because it really works.

Here's a real weapon in the war against being fat:

www.healthierus.gov

It's a web site set up by the U.S. Federal Govt. designed with the naive ambition of teaching people how to be healthier. It seems that the Centers for Deisease Control (CDC) has been studying the alarming rise in obesity in the U.S. over the last decade and the gov is trying to do something about it. The web site has links to reputable advise on nutrition, exercise, medical issues, etc. It's well worth the look if you are serious about getting back that girlish figure you never had. All from a source that is NOT trying to sell you the latest diet/fitness/medical miracle.

Things you will see on the website:

1. Eat more fruits and vegetables
2. Stop smoking
3. Get off your butt and exercise
4. Go get a checkup
5. Don't try to lose weight quickly.

Things you won't see on the website:

1. Cut out all your carbs so you can lose weight really fast.
2. Try ephedra before it's taken off the market.
3. Get the supersize megaburger meal because it's better value.
4. You don't have to change your lifestyle to stay trim.
5. Llama spit cures cancer and baldness.

Personally, I'd rather ride a bike than drink llama spit.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Ephedra has been used for a century I think with few adverse effect AND it works.

Kava an herbal tea and supplement has been around for centuries and was used wide spread amongst the health advocates for stress relief and mind awareness. until it was discovered that prolonged use of it damaged your kidneys. Be very careful of quick fixes. I lost 60 pounds just by cutting down on empty calories, going to more of an organic whole foods diet and exercise and I didn't make anyone one rich off of it in the process. When things come and go from society (like Kava and the Atkins diet) one should go back in history to find out just why it stopped being used in the first place, it is not necessarily due to modern science pushing it out, it could be because it does harm you if you do it for a prolonged period of time.

Originally posted by Richard Cranium
Pills didn't make you fat, and they won't make you thin either.


Flawed logic.

That's like saying "A lobotomy didn't make you smart, and it won't make you stupid either..."


:p

Originally posted by belfast-biker
Flawed logic.

That's like saying "A lobotomy didn't make you smart, and it won't make you stupid either..."


:p Thanks for a great laugh.

I can't comment on the argument and I don't want to side with anyone - I just thought I should tell you that your analogy is very funny.:D

Originally posted by Maelstrom

Ephedra has been used for a century I think with few adverse effect AND it works.

Ngateguy had it right. Kava kava has been banned in germany because of huge numbers of fulminant liver failure requiring liver transplants. It's been around for centuries but until germany initiated a system for reporting adverse events associated with supplements this was not known. Fen-phen killed only six people out of 40 milllion users and out of that 40 million, only thirty plus had solid evidence regarding the heart valve deficits. I contend it was safer than ephedra. Wyeth voluntarily withdrew the product without any arm twisting from the FDA. I don't think metabolife or xenadrine willl ever voluntarily withdrew their number one money maker like wyeth despite ongoing lawsuits. Such accurate numbers are due to the fact that prescription drugs are carefully monitored by physicians who make mandatory followups to observe for any ill effects. No such self reporting occurs in the lay population. Many patients do not bother to report that they are taking ephedra since they do not believe over the counter supplements are drugs or medicines. Many do not realize some of their symptoms are even causually related until a physician badgers them about usage. (From experience, many will not disclose the information due to shame and only a family member who steps up to the plate divulges the secret. ) So we cannot be falsely assured .

And any chemists or organic chemists on this forum knows that ephedra is an amphetamine "a rose by any other name" is still a rose. Only some bull**** legal loophole makes it legal. speed addicts have very little low body fat. It's not worth the price.

Originally posted by cbhungry
Originally posted by Maelstrom
And any chemists or organic chemists on this forum knows that ephedra is an amphetamine "a rose by any other name" is still a rose. Only some bull**** legal loophole makes it legal. speed addicts have very little low body fat. It's not worth the price.

Except its a 10th of the strength.

Anyways, as for kava kava being banned. Thats cool and good point. But ephedra hasn't done enough damage to ban it. Period. There is not enough proof to leave it banned in relation to the amount of good this supplement does. Period. And stop using the DANG term quick fix. I don't consider this supplement a quick fix situation. I believe it is one piece in the puzzle towards maintaining muscle mass while loosing fat. Reread my posts and you should have gotten that feel. This is the ONLY supplement that can offer that. With proper education about the usage of this supplement it is very safe with the usual disclaimers of anything that can affect your heart (coffee, asprin etc...).

Oh and I haven't even brought up the best parts about ephedra. Originally used for asthmatics (sp) to open up the airway for better breathing this supplement aids larger people directly in exercise breathing. One area large people have some EXTREME issues. This aid in breathing is a neat feeling if you air passage has felt heavy for most of your life. (Speed does this as well but due to the strength of the DRUG is a prescription)

I guess my issue is I think I know enough about this supplement that I don't think my gov't has the right to tell me to take it or not. I believe for most people it is a healthy and safe way to strip fat and gain strenght as long as they

1 - use proper dosage
2 - don't mix
3 - don't use if they have other health issue

Unfortunately a lot of people need babysitting. They take the supplement and think oh 4 pills worked I had better double that. This is a common north american issue. Too bad so sad for the people who have brains.

Cheers

Originally posted by Maelstrom
[B]

And stop using the DANG term quick fix. I don't consider this supplement a quick fix situation. B]

Kava has not been banned in this country yet. And as far as quick fix that is what it is you can deny it and justify it but it is a quick fix that will not last once you stop using it. PERIOD!
I still haven't seen any endorsment of these products or diets from people who used them 20 years ago?

Originally posted by ngateguy
Kava has not been banned in this country yet. And as far as quick fix that is what it is you can deny it and justify it but it is a quick fix that will not last once you stop using it. PERIOD!
I still haven't seen any endorsment of these products or diets from people who used them 20 years ago?

On the first point...I call bullcrap. The results do last if the supplement was used with an anaerobic routine (like I stated previously) where when you stop using it the muscle helps retain the fat loss.

Ok so you didn't see them endorsed 20 years ago...big deal I am not sure I get the point of that statement. There are many things that were endorsed 20 years ago which aren't now. And in the same breath there are things that weren't endorsed 20 years ago that currently found there place. Thats called learning curve. If we are lucky cigs will be banned by 2020...I hope so as I don't want to pay for their health problems. ;)

Originally posted by Maelstrom

Ok so you didn't see them endorsed 20 years ago...big deal I am not sure I get the point of that statement.

My point being is that they were around 20 years ago and they were being ENDORSED by people 20 years ago before they slipped into obscurity only to be brought back alive by people who do not remember. So again I ask there were lots of people beating the drum for these supplements and lo carb diets 20 years ago. Where are they today? Why are they not out there endorsing the product or diet? Maybe because the side effects out weighed the benefits. If you eat a balanced healthy diet there is no need for supplements which in all honestly have NEVER proven to really do any good but have been proven to do HARM. Again I am not telling you not to take them or how to live your life I am just playing the devils advocate and making sure that you are truly thorough in your research. Which means to do as much extensive research to the bad about it. Which I found a plethora of when I went to research it, more bad than good and the only good ones I found had some monetary connection to the diet or product. "Better living through chemistry" has proven to be a huge mistake, like with most (note I did not say all I said most)prescription drugs they do not cure anything they only are a quick fix for the symptoms.

Originally used for asthmatics (sp) to open up the airway for better breathing this supplement aids larger people directly in exercise breathing.

Don't use it anymore for a reason. It is now substandard to negligent care to prescribe sympathomimetics vs. beta agonists and inhaled steroids or leukotrienne inhibitors for asthma since the latter have superior efficacy and safety. Ephedra like drugs were once used because it was all doctors had. We used to treat severe, major clinical depression with amphetamines 70 years ago but doesn't make it ok.

unfortunately, most people are not as smart as maelstorm and would not know how to use ephedra or any pharmaceutical products wisely. (True, it would streamline the human gene pool for the better by eliminating those idiots that misuse it) but that would be intellectual elitism.

Ironically through all this debate about the topic. This is the only 'medication' I have ever used. I have been to the doctor once is 8 years and don't believe in using drugs as a crutch. I always found that an interesting tweak in my personality (yep odd but I really don't trust most medical professionals). Oh well...we all have our points and it is kind of stuck so cheers for the discussion, been about 10 of these topics since I bothered posting about the topic.

Originally posted by cbhungry
Don't use it anymore for a reason. It is now substandard to negligent care to prescribe sympathomimetics vs. beta agonists and inhaled steroids or leukotrienne inhibitors for asthma since the latter have superior efficacy and safety. Ephedra like drugs were once used because it was all doctors had. We used to treat severe, major clinical depression with amphetamines 70 years ago but doesn't make it ok.


They still make amphetamine puffers I believe. I know they did 5 years ago when my ex gf got one...

At least the medical profession is always questioning and revising it's dogmas with more studies to disprove or prove a theory or therapy.

Pharmaceutical companies, despite the bad rap, at least embark on post marketting surveillance for any adverse effects so it can be reported and perhaps affect the decision to withdraw their product, no matter how lucrative.

I don't see this sort of self policeing in the over the counter industry and pharmaceuticals.

But at the same time, I don't believe in denying the general public the right to help self medicate especially when not all health professionals are open minded about alternative therapies. However, the nutricals industry probably needs to be braced for drastic class action lawsuits (like the one gearing up against metabolife) if they continue to inadequetly educate their consumers or provide sufficient warnings.


P.S.

They still make amphetamine puffers I believe. I know they did 5 years ago when my ex gf got one...

In georgia it is illegal and negligent to prescibe amphetamine based metered dose inhaler. Tolerance (‘‘epinephrine-fastness’’) may develop with prolonged usage, but effectiveness may return after the drug is withheld for 12 hours to several days. Rebound bronchospasm may occur when the effects of the drug end So if someone uses an epinephrine based metered dose inhaler and has a severe rebound attack after discontinuation and dies from it, docs get sued down here.