Southern California - How do you envision the So Cal Community?

As someone who's had more than his fair share of experience with message boards, democracy rarely works in these situations. Things can get very complicated very fast and peoples feelings sometimes get hurt. Such is life.

Good dialogues about what people want and expect from this place is probably a step in the right direction though.

.....



i don't know what this is all about but if you leave, who am i gonna quote??

:D

As someone who's had more than his fair share of experience with message boards, democracy rarely works in these situations. Things can get very complicated very fast and peoples feelings sometimes get hurt. Such is life.

Good dialogues about what people want and expect from this place is probably a step in the right direction though.

+1 I've seen a few message boards closed down because of stuff like this and at no time was there any sort of open dialogue. The fact that difficult situations like this can be openly discussed without an increase in flaming speaks volumes about the character of the people on this board. To sound all cheesy and stuff...we can't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. ;)

Perfectly fine.. It's been a while since I've been back home to Mississippi.. I guess I've been living in California too long..

Don't lose the southern hospitality!!!!

While even I, who isn't offended by anything, don't want to see the site degrade into the Penthouse Letters (I pay good money for that elsewhere). Can I borrow your password?

I just want to say ME, glad you're back. I also voted C. I would stay with the BF community, but if So Cal moves, I would want to follow as well.

I am basically still a lurker, but have never felt left out or thought of the So Cal group as Clique-y. You all seemed friendly and open to new people, the only thing to this point that has kept me from participating in some of your rides is the distance from the desert. Oh yeah, that and the fact that I'm not quite up to a century a weekend (or more!:eek: ) I know at some point I'll have a chance to meet and ride with you and that you will make me feel welcome. And visa versa if you come to my neck of the woods!:D

Re: the long post above...

Mods do not exist to impose personal views. Mods must bite our tongues so often that we risk biting off and swallowing part of that muscle. Mods exist to keep the forum functional and within guidelines. However, in a system of volunteer mods, the mods cannot reasonably be expected to cover every post. Therefore, reports from other users are investigated. Reports from other users result in at least one mod reading that post, but do not necessarily result in moderating action.

Though a majority vote works for some things, it does not work for all things. A functional democracy is not three wolves and a sheep sitting around a dinner table taking votes and deciding to eat a sheep for dinner. That's tyranny of the majority, which is just as dangerous as tyranny of the minority.

While I can appreciate a desire to understand what happened to various posts in tumultuous times like these, as a whole, leaving such annotations is highly disruptive to the good flow of threads that are disrupted by a few bad posts. Honestly, in the vast majority of cases, it does not take too much to figure out why something was edited or removed. Yes, there are gray areas, and within the gray areas, things are not always consistent. That is why they are gray areas. However, that such areas exist does not mean we should draw a line and toe the line, both as users and as moderators. Such legalism results in an arbitrary line in the middle of no man's land that satisfies no one, a dangerous downhill slope with nothing to stop the descent, or the policing of everything in the gray area. Use good judgment, people, and don't purposely toe the line, and we'll all get along better.

SoCal people, I'm sorry I haven't been around as much during the recent difficult times in our subforum. Unfortunately, this thing called grad school is sucking away a huge amount of my time. But if there's anything any one of you wants to discuss with me, I do read every PM and will make reasonable efforts to help resolve anything that has a serious impact on your usage of this site.

Hope to see you guys on the road soon.


Jason

Though a majority vote works for some things, it does not work for all things. A functional democracy is not three wolves and a sheep sitting around a dinner table taking votes and deciding to eat a sheep for dinner. That's tyranny of the majority, which is just as dangerous as tyranny of the minority.It's a case of lesser of two evils. We never actualy have that kind of a ratio, it's more like:

1. tyranny of majority - 200:1 vote, 200 wolves=YES, one sheep=NO, resulting in 1 dead sheep
2. tyranny of minority - 1:200 vote, 200 wolves=NO, one sheep=YES, resulting in 200 dead wolves (way more food than one sheep can eat anyway)

The criteria is the same as before, to do as little harm as possible. edit: changed ratios to be more realistic.

An example of what occurs here is you may have a hiccup in the flow that causes major havoc. We're all cruising down the road on our century of 5000 riders and suddenly a pothole shows up on the course. Everyone sees it and most people ride around it, or bunny hops over. Then some Phred sees the pothole, knows that it's going to hurt him, rides into it anyway, crashes and complains to the organizers. The organizers, fearing lawsuits and various other retributions, shuts down the entire century to take the Phred to hospital... That indeed is tyranny of the minority... :p

I actually don't have any issues with the existing moderation system (aside from a few rogue mod actions). Just do not call it a "community based" or "community values". Call it what it is, a "private board with pre-determined rules and values to be moderated on an individual basis". Then we'd have no misunderstandings or assumptions about how anything works. Just the fact that different mods will rule differently on the same post is a sure sign of individual values, viewpoints and subjective personal judgments being introduced into the process.


How about this for a self-moderated forum where actual "community values" of the participants are incorporated.

1. everything rolls along as is.
2. a complaint is lodged
3. mod posts complaint publicly for vote (with user-name removed of course)

POLL ON COMPLAINT ABOUT POST #---

the post is fine, leave it
the post should be edited by poster or mod to not be so offencive
the post's content should be erased with reason for removal inserted as placeholder
delete the post completely
delete the entire thread

4. votes would then be taken (eligibility for voting could be posters in the thread, posters in the forum, or everyone to be determined at time of poll maybe?)
5. after pre-determined time, results of poll tallied and resultant actions taken automatically

This process would reduce A LOT of overhead for the mods as there'd be no need to read the entire thread to figure out what's going on. No need to look up the user-tracking to see their history. No need to weigh where in the grey area the post falls into. No conflicts with figuring out the pros and cons of various actions.

And this process would truly reflect the "community values" of the participants and really make this board and its contents a reflection of those present. The middle grey area will shift continuously depending upon the mix of participants in the forums at any given time. The SoCal forum with its bizarre mix of characters will have its own set of values and shifted grey-area.

I participate in numerous other boards. Here's one that's very effective at self-regulation with practically zero moderation: http://forums.corner-carvers.com . Since complaints fall on deaf ears, the offended must lodge their greviances publicly and face the support or wrath of the entire community. After a while, the overall "culture" of the forum moulds oddballs to fit or discards them. This board is VERY cohesive and flows very smoothly without any of the drama seen here.

It's a case of lesser of two evils. We can have:

1. tyranny of majority - 3/4 vote, three wolves=YES, one sheep=NO, resulting in 1 dead sheep
2. tyranny of minority - 1/4 vote, three wolves=NO, one sheep=YES, resulting in 3 dead wolves (way more food than one sheep can eat anyway)

Things aren't black and white. There are alternatives that may or may not be present in that simplistic illustration, and costs and benefits are not necessarily of comparable magnitude. Lots of people having a minor convenience at the expense of one person seriously hurt may be a net positive in some enumeration of costs and benefits, but it doesn't make it okay.


Just the fact that different mods will rule differently on the same post is a sure sign of individual values, viewpoints and personal judgments being introduced into the process.

It's a sign that there's a gray area where things won't always be consistent. The alternative methods of moderating the gray area have already been noted, and none of them are truly acceptable.

I like the So Cal BF.
It is an inviting friendly place with far less BS than many other forums.
I have been welcomed and invited to join.
The rides I've been on with everyone are friendly enjoyable experiences, and not at all clique like.

I like it here, and you can't make me leave...:p

Things aren't black and white. There are alternatives that may or may not be present in that simplistic illustration, and costs and benefits are not necessarily of comparable magnitude. Lots of people having a minor convenience at the expense of one person seriously hurt may be a net positive in some enumeration of costs and benefits, but it doesn't make it okay.There should be a way to measure and quantify this... How seriously can someone be hurt here compared to real sticks & stones? :p


It's a sign that there's a gray area where things won't always be consistent. The alternative methods of moderating the gray area have already been noted, and none of them are truly acceptable.How about leaving it up to the community of participants then?

How seriously can someone be hurt here compared to real sticks & stones? :p
There are on occasion serious offenses with real world consequences that the mods are forced to respond to. Not wanting to encourage copycat actions, I will not discuss these offenses.

I'm not sure if there is clear cut answer to this issue. Society as a whole has gotten a bit to politically correct, far too much for my comfort. We have seen how a small majority of people have decided that it's there moral duty to decide the course of action society will take on particular issues. The threshold level for acceptable behavior has gotten smaller and smaller. I have always felt, if it does not hurt anyone, live and let live.

I've only been on two rides with the peeps on this forum (Baldy & Stagecoach) and each time I suffered, had a blast and met some really friendly, passionate people. I can understand how a first-timer can view this group as being "cliquey", however that is far, far from the case. All it takes is for one to make the effort and ride with these passionate people. Don't judge a book by it's cover.

I hope everyone who was contributed to this forum however small, will remain. SoCal will be stronger if we stick together and support each other.

Ian In SD

P.S. ME whatever you decide to do, I support you 100%.

Danno,

You make good points and in a perfect world it would be nice to have such a system. Of course in a perfect world such a system wouldn't be needed would it? Putting every reported post to a vote would be unrealistic in my opinion. One point of contest would be how long would you leave a vote open, and would you leave the post/thread in place until such time the vote is concluded? Removing the post until the vote is completed leaves far too much opportunity for abuse, leaving them there leaves what could be obviously offensive content on the forum for too long.

Before I attempt to steer this thread back on topic a bit I will remind everyone of this point: we do have a set of community guidelines which every member agreed to follow when they signed up on the forum. They are quite simple, straightforward and well within reason. Primarily that we are to be respectful of each other and our differences. Furthermore there are a number of guidelines under the headings of harassment, vulgarity, disruption, etc. All that the moderators ask is that each individual follow these guidelines. If you have an individual question on if the content of one of your posts or threads are going to be within these guidelines, it would likely be best that you run it by a moderator before posting it.

Ok, all that said, I don't think Merider1 started this thread with the intent to make it an exercise in putting the moderators and the policies under which we control the forum under a microscope. In fact, I believe it was said several pages back that it was not her intent for that at all. But be sure that the moderators, admins, and all are taking all suggestions into consideration.

Ok sounds good. I hope ME's concerns are addressed to her satisfaction regardless of the outcome, if any. I guess in this case, she could be considered one of those "minorities". ;)

I sure do hope we are rid of the scumbag(s) and things would settle down. This is great community, with plenty of nice people sharing the same interest. I would hate to see lose members who are great contributor the board, because of couple of idots. I would like the community to stay.

I think the events that have transpired are the direct result of poor moderators.

It's obvious that new leadership is required for the SoCal Forums...

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/7932/maxformodfp7.png

Wasn't he under-aged? You're gonna get us all sued and thrown in jail for some sort of child-exploitation charges... cue EURO....

Wasn't he under-aged? You're gonna get us all sued and thrown in jail for some sort of child-exploitation charges... cue EURO....

I found out too late that he was underage when the Dateline producers caught me during the sting operation.

;)

How about we have my son take over moderation duties:

http://www.zaftig.net/images/bikeforums-loganmod.jpg

Did we ever find out why the SB Century post was edited?

logan's got my vote. sweet bike BTW.

I kinda wanted to throw in some words here but I'm not really sure what to say, except that I have always felt welcome in Socal-unlike other forums on here, where posts get outright ignored. It would stink if all you guys went elsewhere, and I would definitely follow because you have all been so nice to me and fun to ride with. Whatever people decide to do, I'll be around. I just wanna ride.

Did we ever find out why the SB Century post was edited?

I have not heard anything saying that any moderator edited that post in any way shape or form at this time. In fact all of the relatively active mods have stated just the opposite that they don't remember the thread at all, let alone making any changes to it large or small. I hate to take the cheap way out and say it was a software issue, but at this point that's about the only assumption I have left. If there was any way I could help M.E. rebuild the post to its orginal size I'd certainly be willing to do so.

I've also done my best to look into the missing thread, and unfortunately, it is just gone. Did it predate the latest forum crash? If so, unfortunately, that (caused by two simultaneous hard drive crashes) probably was the culprit. If not, then I honestly don't know. A mod has to go out of his/her way to delete something without leaving telltale traces. (We have on file the full text of all the spam threads even.) That's on purpose... having an internal record of everything is helpful. Yet there is absolutely no trace of the missing thread. Unfortunately, given the circumstances, there's not much anyone can do about it.

I've also done my best to look into the missing thread, and unfortunately, it is just gone. Did it predate the latest forum crash? If so, unfortunately, that (caused by two simultaneous hard drive crashes) probably was the culprit. If not, then I honestly don't know. A mod has to go out of his/her way to delete something without leaving telltale traces. (We have on file the full text of all the spam threads even.) That's on purpose... having an internal record of everything is helpful. Yet there is absolutely no trace of the missing thread. Unfortunately, given the circumstances, there's not much anyone can do about it.She just posted it on Saturday (I think) - and it was there, I saw it. It disappeared later that day. The rest of the thread was still there - it was just her initial post that went missing. Not to spark conspiracy theories, but it was odd that it happened shortly after the harasser showed up.

There were also a number of Caligurl's 'Rate The Ride' threads that were deleted after they were initially posted.

Who was the harasser? Anybody I know? It wasn't me, 'cause I'm still here.

There were also a number of Caligurl's 'Rate The Ride' threads that were deleted after they were initially posted.

Who was the harasser? Anybody I know? It wasn't me, 'cause I'm still here.

We do know what happened to Caligurl's threads, which to put it shortly, was an unfortunate series of events ending with the server crash eating them. It was not the intent for them to be deleted, but were moved temporarly shortly before the down time.

Ok, all that said, I don't think Merider1 started this thread with the intent to make it an exercise in putting the moderators and the policies under which we control the forum under a microscope. In fact, I believe it was said several pages back that it was not her intent for that at all. But be sure that the moderators, admins, and all are taking all suggestions into consideration.


No, I did not, Cuda. You are correct. I more meant this as a way for the community to openly discuss and express their views on how they want the community to continue. Someone made the point that the fact that this being discussed without anyone attacking another member is a telling sign. Also, I think the questions put before the moderators are fair if not heavy-handed and I appreciate you and the other Mods providing feedback and your opinions as well. This should be collaborative and I'm grateful is has been thus far.

I have not heard anything saying that any moderator edited that post in any way shape or form at this time. In fact all of the relatively active mods have stated just the opposite that they don't remember the thread at all, let alone making any changes to it large or small. I hate to take the cheap way out and say it was a software issue, but at this point that's about the only assumption I have left. If there was any way I could help M.E. rebuild the post to its orginal size I'd certainly be willing to do so.


No need to help me, Cuda, but thank you for offering. I'll put the information for the ride, links, etc. back in the original post of that thread today - it's a matter of typing it over again. This time, I will save the text. Hopefully, this was just an anomaly and nothing dubious.

I've also done my best to look into the missing thread, and unfortunately, it is just gone. Did it predate the latest forum crash? If so, unfortunately, that (caused by two simultaneous hard drive crashes) probably was the culprit. If not, then I honestly don't know. A mod has to go out of his/her way to delete something without leaving telltale traces. (We have on file the full text of all the spam threads even.) That's on purpose... having an internal record of everything is helpful. Yet there is absolutely no trace of the missing thread. Unfortunately, given the circumstances, there's not much anyone can do about it.


Jason, it wasn't a thread that was missing. It was "part of" a post. I had created the thread regarding the Santa Barbara Century this Saturday and put in the original post (Post #1) links to the route slip, map and Amtrak as well as several sentences giving details of where to meet, what time, etc. I had also typed 5 paragraphs describing the ride, what was needed, etc. Finally, there was a list of those riders who said they were coming. All of the text disappeared on Sunday afternoon except the first two/three sentences. So, the thread nor the post went missing, but the information about the ride did. I think it is important to clarify that I discovered this and discovered that the harassing member was online simultaneously. The combination concerned me.

ME: not as any sort of solution or anything, but you should change your password right now.

ME: not as any sort of solution or anything, but you should change your password right now.
Thank you, Mo. I just did.

Ok, so I saw this thread yesterday while I was lurking. But I was banned so I couldn't post.

I just wanted to say that I hope MErider doesn't leave. Mainly because I want to flirt with her much much more than I already have. If she leaves, I won't be able too. :( Plus I'd like the opportunity to ride with her and flirt in person. I can't do that if I don't know when she's coming up to norcal.

I feel for you in terms of harassment. But really, every strong personality on this forum has been harassed one way shape or form. Someone in foo has multiple times made accounts just to post and harass me and try to make me look stupid. It aint gonna bring me down. They win that way. I want to stay here, so I will.

(((hugs))) to ma socal baybuh.

Booo to mean people. ME don't leave us! Sorry I'm all late getting into this.

Again, I reiterate,

http://www.junkfoodblog.com/uploaded_images/carls-jr-portobello-burger.jpg

I like where you're going with this. May I add:

http://waterintowino.typepad.com/water_into_wino/images/arrogant_beer_ale_1.jpg

Jim