Folding Bikes - Standing & Cranking Up Hill on a Folder

Is that a problem? Do YOU stand and crank up hill?
I've only had my Pocket Pilot for a few days, but cranking up a steep hill seemed a bit dicey. A lot of creaking noises compared to my litespeed. Maybe my bike is haunted! :p

my downtube hasn't had any problems when I have done so, but I almost never mash, I lower gears and spin. Then again, I don't have the foothills So. Cal has in NYC.

You can't really stand on a Strida, but I sure as hell can stand and crank on my Raleigh 20.

I'm sure a Pocket Pilot can handle standing and cranking. I've never dealt with any real hills on my Boardwalk, but as long as I keep the bars set relatively low, I don't get too much worrying flex.

I ride a fixed gear Xootr in the hills of southern Indiana, so standing and cranking is a mandatory part of every ride. There were some creaks and groans at first, but greasing the likely culprits and tightening down the clamps fixed everything. Now if only I could silence the panting and groaning coming from the motor.

Jack

If creaking is the only problem (as opposed to flex), check with BF. There are probably some components that need to be greased or tightened. Happens all the time on my Swift.

I know Swifts are built solid enough that you can stand and/or pull on the handlebars; I assume this is also true for BF and other expensive folders / separatables (Moulton, Airnimals etc). Not a good idea on the low-end Dahons though, since the handlebars are very flexy.

If you have multiple gears, the "right" way to go uphill is to shift down and spin like mad. That's true regardless of the bike: DF, folder, or 'bent. Standing and mashing is poor use of your muscles. And if the bike is creaking, it's probably not good for the bike - overstressing some parts perhaps?

BUT if you have a single speed, you might not have a choice :) I have yet to tackle anything more than an 8% grade on my Strida - and only a very short stretch at that.

It's not a problem for me and my Downtube. I do it all the time and feel very secure with it. With the hills around here, and the company I keep when I ride them, mashing is sometimes necessary.

My experience with Fridays is that they feel best climbing out of the saddle. But they shouldn't squeak.

No problem standing up and cranking on the NWT. Just for reference, I am about 6' and 195 pounds.

My experience with Fridays is that they feel best climbing out of the saddle. But they shouldn't squeak.

I said creak, not squeak! I've got a goblin, not a mouse, living in my drive train!

I'm not sure that I know the difference twixt squeak and creak. The Friday-specifc stuff is that the bottom hinge can make noise. To cure this, remove the hinge nuts and washers, add a dab of lithium grease to everything, and tighten it back up again. Also make sure the rear hinge quick-release is good and tight. If that doesn't cure it, it could be a non-Friday specific thing: make sure pedals and crank bolts are tight, and that the wheel spokes are properly tensioned.

You can really stress the drivetrain climbing out of the saddle. If something is going to squeak/creak, that's when it's gonna happen.

Pocket Pilots don't have folding seat masts.

Not seatmast. Rear triangle, which I assume is the same as other Fridays.

The only thing that creaks when out of the saddle on my fixie Swift are my aged knees. :p

Seriously, though, the linkage in the rear traingle of the Friday is most likely the culprit. A curious Friday owner stopped me on the train one day to examine my Swift. He said the rear triangle on the Swift is much stiffer than that of his Friday. I wouldn't worry about it, though. It's a great bike, and the legions of faithful Friday owners out there can attest that the bike is reliable and safe.

Got it. Never thought of looking there. Found that my noise was always due to the seat mast hinge.

Don't need to with the Silver. Forget about any hill on the Brommie. I will try standing up without shifting next time. No creak just creepy driver buzzing by.

Don't pull when you climb! You can damage your headset or break the stem. (Remember what the wise Greek said, "Give me a lever long enough, and I'll destroy your bearings.")

Creaking could be joint between cranks and BB spline. I didn't do this properly when I first built my Twenty and it sounded pretty terrible - aluminium against hardened steel is quite a junction. I realised my mistake after one largish hill and so added liberal amounts of purple grease which totally sorted the noise which hasn't reappeared since with about 2000 miles of riding and two stripdowns.

And I second the opinion that a Twenty can 'take it' with the standing cranking on a hill thing. Totally. Built to survive nuclear wars these bikes! :)

I opted for Trek folders as you can get out of the saddle and dance up the hills (admittedly, I do not waltz up inclines on the 76" fixed - this is more a case of mashing and staying in the saddle for as long as possible and exerting a lot of power at lower revs).

As for the handling, I have hardly any tuck under and the the bike rarely groans. I am 6ft 2" and 205lbs.

I never had the need to stand on the pedals, even on the hilly terrain surrounding my house. I find that the gearing is quite adequete.

I never had the need to stand on the pedals, even on the hilly terrain surrounding my house. I find that the gearing is quite adequete.

I double that for my Dahon Speed 7. My commute home is all uphill, and I pedal seated all the way.

It would be nice to subtract a couple of inches for low gear, though...especially at the end of the week!

:D

Well, the original question was not whether climbing out of the saddle was advisable or necessary, but whether it should be possible. Although I rarely stand on the pedals, I haven't noticed any unusual noises on my BF Crusoe or Pocket Tourist when I do. I'd agree that the rear triangle is a likely reason if there is excessive noise. Is it also possible that the bottom bracket might be a little loose?

I regularly stand up and pump my Merc 3 speed. With a bottom gear of 45 inches, I have to on a steep hill. The bike seems happy with this and the only creeks I get are the occasional ones from my knees.

You can't really stand on a Strida.
Agreed!

I would not stand on the pedals on a folder with either Sturmey Archer AW-3 or Sram Spectro 3. Both hubs can and will shift in neutral causing you to go over the handlebars or fall over. Furthermore, the handlebars on Dahon folders were not ment for standing and will get damaged.

Umm, two things. First, there are hills, and there are hills. Small-wheeled bikes have fairly low gearing, but 8% + grades sometimes demand riding out of the saddle even if you have low gears. There shouldn't be any problem pushing any bike with an internal hub this way. The hubs won't simply shift into neutral unless they're radically out of adjustment or damaged.

And if the handlebars on a Dahon can't handle this, I would say those bike have a serious design problem.

Not a design problem at all. You just have to learn to push with one leg and lift with the other. If you have standard pedals, you have to stand, but not pull on the bars. You get used to it, and at the end of the day are a better rider because of it.

After a couple of months of riding one, I learned to climb hills on a folder better than I would on a regular bike. And the small wheels help with the intertia problem (I think, though I might be talking out of my bung hole), so it's easier to climb with them apart from gearing.

Originally Posted by randya....You can't really stand on a Strida.

Agreed!.

Thats so true - or you may loose your undercarriage :rolleyes:
However, the bars are very stiff so you can really pull on them.

I do it all the time, on and off-road on a dahon 20". I did have riser bars and now i have drops, which makes it easier - where i live hills at 17% are not unusual...

My experience with a Dahon 20" with a 110mm stem extension and drop bars is that the whole stem post will creak if you pull back on them while cranking, so you're better off staying seated.

Never had this problem on my Bike Friday other than some stem post flex.

If the handlebars on a Dahon can't handle this, I would say those bike have a serious design problem....

I don't think "design problem" is the term I'd use, I'd call it a "design compromise," where you lose a little bit of frame strength in exchange for a pretty good fold.

It's not like pulling back on the bars will cause an immediate failure. It takes a long time for the handlepost to actually break. But it does happen often enough that one bike mechanic denigrated my Dahon as a "Bike-Shaped Object." ;)

So if you're a casual rider and/or know not to pull on the bars, you're fine. If you're a serious rider and/or really like to stand, you are far better off with a different bike (Swift, BF etc).

This bike was made for cranking...

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p15/suntoryjim/swift/swift_evo/swift-evo-8.jpg

The low-set bullhorns give plenty of leverage, and the MTB seatpost binder bolts (in place of the QRs) ensure a creak-less out-of-the-saddle cranking experience. ;) This bike loves going up hills and sprinting away from traffic lights.

Umm, two things. First, there are hills, and there are hills. Small-wheeled bikes have fairly low gearing, but 8% + grades sometimes demand riding out of the saddle even if you have low gears. There shouldn't be any problem pushing any bike with an internal hub this way. The hubs won't simply shift into neutral unless they're radically out of adjustment or damaged.


There was a web site where a guy who had a career fixing the Sturmey Archer AW-3 posted about how this hub was notorious for slipping into neutral. I've expereinced this too and it was due to the fact that Sturmey Archer took short cuts in developing the hub. Sturmey Archer did produce hubs that did not slip but for some reason, this was not incorporated into the AW-3.

There was a web site where a guy who had a career fixing the Sturmey Archer AW-3 posted about how this hub was notorious for slipping into neutral. I've expereinced this too and it was due to the fact that Sturmey Archer took short cuts in developing the hub. Sturmey Archer did produce hubs that did not slip but for some reason, this was not incorporated into the AW-3.

Would you recommend a different 3 speed hub? Shimano? SRAM?

Originally Posted by randya....You can't really stand on a Strida.

I was reading in A to B that someone had put 125mm cranks (from a unicycle) on their Strida as it aided spinning immeasurably.

Lots of parts could creak. Handle bars/headset. Pedals especially if your feet are away from the cranks a bit.

Ah. I haven't ridden a S-A hub in decades. You may be right.

The Sachs (now SRAM) hub does not have this problem. Don't know about the SRAM DualDrive.

I was reading in A to B that someone had put 125mm cranks (from a unicycle) on their Strida as it aided spinning immeasurably.
Reducing the length of the cranks without a corresponding reduction in the overall gear ratios will not help spinning ability. More than once in this thread it has been mentioned that "small wheels have lower gearing than large ones". This is only true in the theoretical sense of things. In practice, the manufacturer will have chosen chainrings and cassettes that compensate more or less for the reduction and thus the gear inches that you feel through the pedals should not differ greatly from what you feel on a standard bike. I really think it should be a matter of geometry as to whether or not a given folder is ok to ride standing. The Swift and Downtube types seem much better suited to it than the Dahon types. I cannot stand on my Giant Halfway (too twitchy) but can and do on my Downtube. Both are well made, strong bikes that are well able to withstand the stresses of out of the saddle lugging. IMO if one's bicycle cannot do so then it is not safe for riding on public roads.

H

I would not stand on the pedals on a folder with either Sturmey Archer AW-3 or Sram Spectro 3. Both hubs can and will shift in neutral causing you to go over the handlebars or fall over. Furthermore, the handlebars on Dahon folders were not ment for standing and will get damaged.The S-A AW3 geared hub only shifts into neutral from the highest (3rd) gear. And that only happend when cranking very very hard like standing on the pedals and giving it all you've got.

It wasn't a "design shortcut" either, more a design shortcoming or a too-late discovered design bug. The problem is that the clutch engages pawl hinge pins in 3rd gear; when big torque is applied, the hinge pins swivel a tiny amount around the support point, making the clutch to pin interface not perfectly parallel. The clutch then starts to slide off the hing pin if the torque is maintained. Worn hubs are worse.

Reducing the length of the cranks without a corresponding reduction in the overall gear ratios will not help spinning ability.

How do you know? It depends on the individual rider in question. If the Strida rider was 5ft 2", with a 28" inseam I can well believe that much shorter cranks would help their spinning ability.


More than once in this thread it has been mentioned that "small wheels have lower gearing than large ones". This is only true in the theoretical sense of things. In practice, the manufacturer will have chosen chainrings and cassettes that compensate more or less for the reduction and thus the gear inches that you feel through the pedals should not differ greatly from what you feel on a standard bike.


Incorrect. Very few folding bikes offer the same range of gearing as a road bike (with a double) or mountain bike (with a triple). The exceptions include those that employ either a Rohloff hub, double chainring, Schlumpf, or dual drive. Most folding bikes lose out at the top-end...

Reducing the length of the cranks without a corresponding reduction in the overall gear ratios will not help spinning ability.

I thought that crank length is a determinant of a bike's gearing.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gain.html

Incorrect. Very few folding bikes offer the same range of gearing as a road bike (with a double) or mountain bike (with a triple). The exceptions include those that employ either a Rohloff hub, double chainring, Schlumpf, or dual drive. Most folding bikes lose out at the top-end...
Isn't that a result of the internal gear hubs used, not the small wheels per say?


I thought that crank length is a determinant of a bike's gearing.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gain.html
Do you really believe that? I don't. Sure, in theory if your cranks are as long as your legs then you'll get maximum leverage, but there's no way you're going to be pushing as hard with your tippy toes as you could be if the cranks were shorter. in other words, when using longer cranks although you get more leverage with the cranks, you get less leverage with your legs.

Isn't that a result of the internal gear hubs used, not the small wheels per say

Folded bikes like other bikes are of course limited by the range of the hub gear chosen. However, with smaller wheels you have to use bigger chainrings and/or smaller cogs to get a similar set-up.

With a Rohloff on Brompton you would have to use a bigger chainring (say 56 teeth or more) and the smallest available Rohloff sprocket, (13t I think), otherwise you would have very, very low gearing...

I thought that crank length is a determinant of a bike's gearing.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gain.html
'

That was my point exactly. You cannot simply reduce the leverage you do have by as much as 20% and not feel some difference in the pedals no matter who you are. The identical 66" gear will feel very different with 170mm cranks and with 125mm cranks, that is physics, not biomechanics. In order to 'spin' a gear one usually wants to feel less resistance at the pedal, not more. And yes, of course, many folders have less of a gear range than a full size bicycle but that is only because of the limitations of what to do about the large capacity derailleur cage hanging down. With internal gears that limitation goes away and you can have any range of gears with 20" wheels or even 16" wheels as with 27" wheels.

H

'

That was my point exactly. You cannot simply reduce the leverage you do have by as much as 20% and not feel some difference in the pedals no matter who you are. The identical 66" gear will feel very different with 170mm cranks and with 125mm cranks, that is physics, not biomechanics. In order to 'spin' a gear one usually wants to feel less resistance at the pedal, not more. And yes, of course, many folders have less of a gear range than a full size bicycle but that is only because of the limitations of what to do about the large capacity derailleur cage hanging down. With internal gears that limitation goes away and you can have any range of gears with 20" wheels or even 16" wheels as with 27" wheels.

H
The leverage at the pedal is increased with longer cranks, but what about the leverage from your muscle to the pedal?

Swing your arm in small circle, then swing it again in a larger circle. Which is more tiring? The large circle. If your body were in the same position relative to the cranks then longer cranks would definitely give you more leverage, but your body is fixed near the center of the crank, which gives the pedals increased leverage against your muscles.

If you want to do the physics properly then you can't ignore the biomechanics.

http://cranklength.info/ (http://http://www.cranklength.info/)

http://cranklength.info/ (http://http://cranklength.info/)

Your link is broken, but nice site. Much more thorough than Sheldon Brown.
http://www.cranklength.info/