Classic & Vintage - Setting the record straight: Raleigh Super Course database (Need Pics!)

After reading the confusion on the Numbskull Of The Day thread regarding the Raleigh Super Course, I figure it's time to set the record straight...and come up with another database that'll never be finished ;)

This is what I'll need from you fellows to finish this one (and I dare say this one will be easier to complete then the other databases I've attempted to construct in the past):

1: When the first SC was released, and preferably a catalogue photo of this.

2: Photos of all Super Courses from all years (excluding 1984 and '85). Preferably nice, sharp, properly lit photos that are either drive-side shots, or 3/4 shots from the drive side with minimal background obstructions. Preferably all-original examples, or examples with minimal modifications (if so, list the modifications)

3: If you have access to the entire spec. range of a Super Course for a particular year (brakeset, derailers, crankset, rims, hubs, saddle), post the complete specs, and mention the year the specs are for.

Upload your photo here to the site first, just to make sure I can use it before I trouble you to send a larger version (if available) through email.

Take care,

-Kurt

See my posts here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3767630&postcount=14

Download at will (credit if you can, please).

See my posts here: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=3767630&postcount=14

Download at will (credit if you can, please).

Thank you. Do you know what year it is?

Incedentally, you have mentioned the one thing I forgot - I need everyone's full name for the credits.

-Kurt

Thank you. Do you know what year it is?

Incedentally, you have mentioned the one thing I forgot - I need everyone's full name for the credits.

-Kurt

I really can't tell what the heck year it is as they appear to be the exact same through 1974-1976. Name: Shane Beers

I really can't tell what the heck year it is as they appear to be the exact same through 1974-1976. Name: Shane Beers

I'm guessing it is a '75-76, I believe the Challenger RD had a slightly smaller logo in '74.

Wonder if any of the components are dated.

Take care,

-Kurt

Kurt, here are links to a supercourse I am in the process of picking up (the $10 craiglist bike from Minn). I did not take pics (therefore no drive-side shot) but maybe you can use one or two until I get it and take more pics? Notice the B-15 Saddle and the DIAGONAL Reynolds sticker. There was a thread awhile back about this situation with the reynolds decals on the Supercourses. This bike is one owner, purchased new in 1972. Ed

http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/evwxxx/Supercourse/?action=view&current=2007_01_26-1.jpg
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/evwxxx/Supercourse/?action=view&current=2007_01_26_2.jpg
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p134/evwxxx/Supercourse/?action=view&current=2007_01_26_4.jpg

I actually have larger (more detailed) copies of these pics in my hard drive, these are reduced size for photobucket. Use what you can. Oh, there is another one I have access to at the bike shop I have been working at on Saturdays. Will try to get pic of it too, but it is basically identical to this one! Ed Wessman

I'm guessing it is a '75-76, I believe the Challenger RD had a slightly smaller logo in '74.

Wonder if any of the components are dated.

Take care,

-Kurt

Should be able to date from the serial number and the retro-raleigh site

many but not all of the catalogs on retroralieghs.com (http://www.retroraleighs.com/) list full specs for the Supercourse.

I see the supercourse in the 1968 catalog (http://www.retroraleighs.com/catalogs/Raleigh-Catalog-1968.pdf), but not in the 1967

I could post pics of my '74 (based on serial number) but I doubt it'd be much help. I got it as a bare frameset and had to assemble the parts based on what I could find out about it. So none of the parts are original but some are correct-ish. The rest fall under the category of "artistic interpretation".

1: When the first SC was released, and preferably a catalogue photo of this.


Kurt, according to the catalogs online at Retro Raleighs and Mark Bulgier's site, the Super Course does not appear in the 1967 catalog (though there's a Raleigh Carlton that's pretty much the same thing) and first appears in the 1968 catalog as model DL 100. Pic below. Of course, the 1963-66 catalogs aren't there, so I don't know if it's a model that appeared earlier and then went away for a few years.

I'll add in the other catalog pages from what's online or what I have in a bit.

Neal

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1968_SC.jpg

Okay, hopefully this won't bring the server down or clog up everyone's connections, but below should be two messages with Raleigh Super Course images from catalogs posted online or in my possession. Years represented (and labeled) are 1969-76, 1978-81. Some of the images are pretty crappy, and some of those catalogs contain full specs, which I'll put into a single doc or something.

Neal

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1969_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1970_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1971_SC.JPG
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1972_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1973_SC.jpg

And here are the rest:

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1974_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1975_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1976_SC.JPG
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1978_SC.jpg
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1979_SC.JPG
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1980_SC.JPG
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1981_SC.JPG

And one more data source--a comparative chart of 1970s Super Course features:

http://www.retroraleighs.com/supercourse.html

Neal

I'll take a picture of my 1978.

I can photo a 73 (?) frameset for you, and most likely can find all the parts that were on it when I pulled it from the junkyard. The fork was far gone, so the bike is in bits and pieces for now, and likely won't be used any time soon. This dosn't sound like what you're looking for, but let me know if you'd have use for the info.

Here are the photos of the Super Courses currently in the fleet or that have passed through:
--a 1971 or 72, set up as a single speed
--a 1973 (first year of block print Raleigh on the downtube) with pretty much original parts
--a 1977 that had its wheels and brakes replaced in the mid 80s.

Neal

Ed:

If you could send me a photo of it when you have it cleaned up a bit better, I think that would do better then the existing photos. The drivetrain side is quite important to me, as it shows the various component changes throughout the years.

Cinco:

Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass. I'd like to stick with the examples as close to original as possible.

Neal:

Well, that's one load of photos. Pretty much what I had been bouncing back and forth over this afternoon on Bulgier and Retro Raleighs. Makes it a lot easier to jump through photos this way.

I gather then that the SC began in '68 - whether it did or not, I'll start with the '68-'86 run, for these seem to be the most common and well known.

Question #1: I note that the SC that you show as the '80 catalouge appears to be from what I thought was the '81 catalogue (and have marked on The Headbadge as such). Is it the '80, not the '81? If so, I'll change it on The Headbadge. Screws up my naming convention, but I can live with that.

What's the Fonz doing in the '71 catalogue? ;)

Question #2: I've never seen that photo you have up from the '76 catalogue. Never seen a '76 catalogue that looks like that. Never seen a non-MkII Raleigh Super Course made after '73. Is this the Canadian catalogue? If so - I don't count it, for it throws a wrench into the U.S. lineup.

Zorro:

Sounds good.

Majikman:

It sounds if that Super Course might be a bit too far gone to use for the photo lineup. I'd prefer reasonably decent examples in order to avoid incorrect componentry or confusion as to decals or any other sorts of misunderstandings.

-Kurt

Question #1: I note that the SC that you show as the '80 catalouge appears to be from what I thought was the '81 catalogue (and have marked on The Headbadge as such). Is it the '80, not the '81? If so, I'll change it on The Headbadge. Screws up my naming convention, but I can live with that.


Yup, that's the page from the 1980 Raleigh USA catalog. The pic I show from 1981 is from the Canadian catalog.



Question #2: I've never seen that photo you have up from the '76 catalogue. Never seen a '76 catalogue that looks like that. Never seen a non-MkII Raleigh Super Course made after '73. Is this the Canadian catalogue? If so - I don't count it, for it throws a wrench into the U.S. lineup.


Yup, Canadian again. The use of "colour" gave it away, huh?!

I'm working on the list of specs. What format would be best for you?

Neal

Kurt,

Below is a link to photos of my early 1970's Super Course. It is all original except for the derailleurs which have been replaced with Japanese components. I hope you find the pics usefull.

Good luck with the site.


http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2006/cc206-chrisjoyce1206.html

Yup, that's the page from the 1980 Raleigh USA catalog. The pic I show from 1981 is from the Canadian catalog.

Yup, Canadian again. The use of "colour" gave it away, huh?!
I'm working on the list of specs. What format would be best for you?

So it is an '80 catalogue? Damn. Guess I'll have to change it on the Headbadge site regardless.

Do me a favor and get rid of anything Canadian - their '76 is the same as the U.S. '73. That's what I noted. The Canadian '81 is the same as the U.S. 1980, but that doesn't prove that the American '81 was anything like the Canadian '81 (although it probably was). Too many chances for problems by bringing the Canadian models into the mix.


Kurt,

Below is a link to photos of my early 1970's Super Course. It is all original except for the derailleurs which have been replaced with Japanese components. I hope you find the pics usefull.

Good luck with the site.


Thank you very much for the pictures, but I believe I got that year taken care of. Yours is a '73, just like Neal's bronze green example. I might be able to use the photo later on though, so I'll keep it on hand.


UPDATE:

So far, the following years have been covered:

1973 (still need the Super Course TT for this year)
1974
1975 (same as '74)
1985 Racing USA

Keep those posts and photos coming...

-Kurt

UPDATE:

I've uploaded the page (minus any photos) to show the changes I've put down for the models throughout the years, from 1973-1985. Still a bit foggy on 1981, '82, '83, and '86.

Someone take a look at it and tell me if I've missed anything and your opinions on it:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/TH_raleigh_supercourse.html

P.S.: Due to the extensive variants of the last generation of English (not the '83-86 USA) Super Courses, I would prefer examples as original as can be for the photographs. Send me whatever you have though, regardless of this - every bit helps.

Take care,

-Kurt

UPDATE:

I've uploaded the page (minus any photos) to show the changes I've put down for the models throughout the years, from 1973-1985. Still a bit foggy on 1981, '82, '83, and '86.

New update:

Have since added the entire component specs from the '68 through the '73, pretty much completing the entire lineup of models until 1985 (still don't know the specs of the '86). Guess it's time to kick back and wait for you fellows to send me all those photos I want ;)

I have one question though - it is obvious that the 1970 model dumps the original 3-pin Williams crankset for another type of 3-pin...but I do not know what brand the 3-pin on the '70 is. I also note that a Nevar crankset is used in '71, and again in '73 - and yet, Neal Lerner and Joychri's '73 SC's use the 3-pin design as used on the example in the '70 catalogue. That is all fine with me - obviously, Raleigh used both cranksets throughout these years, but I need to know what make and model these two cranksets are.

Take care,

-Kurt

Kurt, here's the component list on that 1973:

* Weinmann 27 x 1 1/4 alloy rims and Normandy Luxe Competition hubs, Cyclopro tires
* Stronglight steel cottered crankset, 52t/40t
* Huret front and rear deraillers w/ Simplex downtube shift levers
* Simplex 5-speed gear cluster
* Atom pedals
* GB stem and Raleigh alloy handlebars
* Weinmann 750 centerpull brakes w/ Weinmann alloy levers and hard plastic hoods
* Brooks drilled B5N saddle/seat

Neal

I have always liked the Super Course, which was my second choice in 1971, when I finally decided to splurge the additional $25 on an American Eagle Semi-Pro because of the double-butted CrMo tubing, the aluminum crankset, and the SunTour derailleurs. I recall those super-long Huret gear levers on the 1971 and 1972 models.

I have always liked the Super Course, which was my second choice in 1971, when I finally decided to splurge the additional $25 on an American Eagle Semi-Pro because of the double-butted CrMo tubing, the aluminum crankset, and the SunTour derailleurs. I recall those super-long Huret gear levers on the 1971 and 1972 models.

Yup, my '72 Super Course had those crazy long Huret downtube levers before I single-speeded it and sold those levers on eBay. I've always thought of those as the "suicide levers" because of the possibility for impalement.

Neal

why not 84 -85 years those r my favorites

New update:

I have one question though - it is obvious that the 1970 model dumps the original 3-pin Williams crankset for another type of 3-pin...but I do not know what brand the 3-pin on the '70 is. I also note that a Nevar crankset is used in '71, and again in '73 - and yet, Neal Lerner and Joychri's '73 SC's use the 3-pin design as used on the example in the '70 catalogue. That is all fine with me - obviously, Raleigh used both cranksets throughout these years, but I need to know what make and model these two cranksets are.

Take care,

-Kurt

Kurt - The other steel crankset I have seen on these bikes is the Stronglight 3 pin setup, the drive-side crank arm has the "stronglight" emblem much the same as you see in the arm of a Stronglight 49D crank. Ed

This is a 78 that was breifly in my possession.
http://velospace.org/files/HPIM0527.jpg (http://velospace.org/node/273)
original except for fork, seat, shifters and tires. It originally came with Suntour barcons, and a Brooks saddle.

why not 84 -85 years those r my favorites

They're in the list. Check it.


Kurt - The other steel crankset I have seen on these bikes is the Stronglight 3 pin setup, the drive-side crank arm has the "stronglight" emblem much the same as you see in the arm of a Stronglight 49D crank. Ed

Is this crankset shown in any of the catalogue photos? If so, which years?

-Kurt

Is this crankset shown in any of the catalogue photos? If so, which years?

-Kurt

Kurt, I believe the 1972 catalog shot shows that Stronglight steel cottered crank. Or at least it looks the same as the one that was on my '73 shown in the photo I posted. BTW, the catalog for one of those early 70s years spelled it "Stronglite." Hmm.

Neal

They're in the list. Check it.



Is this crankset shown in any of the catalogue photos? If so, which years?

-Kurt

Nothing real definite. However, if you blow up the pic of the Supercourse in the 72 catalogue (kid reading map next to road signs, brown supercourse) you can just make out what appears to be the typical oval stonglight symbol on the crankarm. You just have to know what you are looking for. I don't believe the steel nervar cranks had that oval indented spot, just Nervar scribed down the arm. Ed

Yup, my '72 Super Course had those crazy long Huret downtube levers before I single-speeded it and sold those levers on eBay. I've always thought of those as the "suicide levers" because of the possibility for impalement.

Neal

I think those levers are beautiful--that goes for the long cage luxe derailer, too. I've always wondered why they aren't more sought after.

Nothing real definite. However, if you blow up the pic of the Supercourse in the 72 catalogue (kid reading map next to road signs, brown supercourse) you can just make out what appears to be the typical oval stonglight symbol on the crankarm. You just have to know what you are looking for. I don't believe the steel nervar cranks had that oval indented spot, just Nervar scribed down the arm. Ed

That explains it - from 1970-1973, Raleigh used both the Nevar and the Stronglight off and on.


This is a 78 that was breifly in my possession.
original except for fork, seat, shifters and tires. It originally came with Suntour barcons, and a Brooks saddle.

Thanks Matt. I'll probably use this one as a '78 representation, although I'm a tad worried that the component changes on this machine might confuse some folks. The '77-82 run has a dizzying multitude of variants through each year.

Take care,

-Kurt

BUMP TO TOP -

NEED MANY MORE PHOTOS FOR THE DATABASE! Send them in!

-Kurt

I just got this last Wedneday. I think that from what I have learned here and elsewhere, that this is a 1968-69 (I cannot seem to find a valid serial number) with possibly shop upgraded cranks and rings (Stronglight model 93 I think) Please ignore saddle and seatpost I know they aren't correct. I am sure that the rear wheel and freewheel are also wrong, the front wheel might be close to stock with a Normandy high flange and Rigda rim.

http://img382.imageshack.us/img382/673/1002095fh1.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/1372/1002097io0.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/8132/1002098vn8.jpg
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/2064/1002106ts5.jpg
http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/1562/1002115dp9.jpg

Also, does anyone know the font style names that Raleigh used? When I repaint I'd like to make new decals.

Thanks,
G

'80

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c263/cubtime100/DSCN1830.jpg

I'd love to find a early-mid 70's SC too.

^
All right - this one's a new one on me. I've seen SC's with the cursive downtube lettering as used pre-1973 on their lightweight machines, but this is the first time I've seen one wearing the downtube lettering of a Sports/DL-1 of the era. Anyone ever run into a case of this before?

-Kurt

I know very little about Raleighs. Does the Super Course or other Raleight 531 tubed bike have the same cut lugs as the Grand Prix?
I own a Grand Prix and love the cut/design of the lugs but looking for a tubing a little higher class than what I believe is plain carbon steel on this one

^
All right - this one's a new one on me. I've seen SC's with the cursive downtube lettering as used pre-1973 on their lightweight machines, but this is the first time I've seen one wearing the downtube lettering of a Sports/DL-1 of the era. Anyone ever run into a case of this before?

-Kurt

And the wrap-over seat stay treatment?! That bike is a Carlton-factory experiment of some sort or a repaint and redecal done 30 years ago.

Neal

And the wrap-over seat stay treatment?! That bike is a Carlton-factory experiment of some sort or a repaint and redecal done 30 years ago.

Neal

Are you talking about mine or the '80. I don't think mine is a repaint because whats on there now is terrible. I have a photo of the TT but it needs resized before upload.

G

Here it is.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4741/10021022lk2.jpg

Are you talking about mine or the '80. I don't think mine is a repaint because whats on there now is terrible. I have a photo of the TT but it needs resized before upload.

G

I was referring to yours. Truthfully, I've never set eyes on a Super Course that was pre-1970, but I've also never seen a Raleigh road bike from the 60s with that block font on the downtube. As Kurt said, that was common on 3-speeds in the 60s, particularly on the chain guard. I had assumed that the usual font was a cursive, which got changed to block font in 1972.

As far as the seat stays, that's a common appearance on Carlton-built machines in the 60s and in some of the Raleigh models above the Super Course, but I've never seen it on the SC. That's my limitation, not your bike's.

Neal

In some of the late '60s catalog's wasn't the Record listed above the Grand Prix and Super Course?

G

Update:

I now belive that it has Bocama lugs and a Gargette BB shell. I have the cranks off and the BB is also Stronglight. The idea that it's a really Carlton made frame is becoming more obvious.

G

In some of the late '60s catalog's wasn't the Record listed above the Grand Prix and Super Course?

G

If you're thinking of this 1968 catalog (first year of the Super Course, I believe), you can see the hierarchy is Super Course, then Grand Prix, then Record.

Neal

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Raleigh_Cat_1968_SC.jpg

Update:

I now belive that it has Bocama lugs and a Gargette BB shell. I have the cranks off and the BB is also Stronglight. The idea that it's a really Carlton made frame is becoming more obvious.

G

What's equally interesting is that those lugs were used primarily on the wrap-stay Grand Prix - not the Super Course.

Might there be any chance here that it is, indeed, a Grand Prix frameset incorrectly badged as a Super Course at the factory? The lugs and wrap stays both indicate a GP frameset (although those DT decals are still anyone's guess).

Take care,

-Kurt

Ok. I guess that my interpretation is in error.

What's equally interesting is that those lugs were used primarily on the wrap-stay Grand Prix - not the Super Course.

Might there be any chance here that it is, indeed, a Grand Prix frameset incorrectly badged as a Super Course at the factory? The lugs and wrap stays both indicate a GP frameset (although those DT decals are still anyone's guess).

Take care,

-Kurt

If so, all the better. I'll not complain. My plan to outfit her as a randonneur would hold better with a GP frame.

Just picked up a 1963 SC in excellent original condition. Only thing not original is bar tape and tires. Can take pics and post tomorrow if anyone is interested. I am interested in any information I can find on this bike. Note to self, "when that voice tells you not wise to put 90 lbs of pressure in 35 year old tires, LISTEN" Tire blew 1/2 mile from house at a fairly good pace in a downhill curve. Fortunately the bike did not go down.

You mean 1973, right?

Neal