View Full Version : Cyclists ask for more space on Oregon roads
chipcom
01-31-07, 08:02 PM
Last I checked it was already illegal to slam an SUV into a cyclist riding in the shoulder.
Don't tempt me HH...I'm pretty sure if I was driving the SUV and you were riding in the shoulder, I could just provide the jury with transcripts of our (ok, your) many discussions here in BF and get away with it! :D
chipcom
01-31-07, 08:09 PM
Huh? Causing the actual desired change in behavior is no illusion.
Indeed. I do it every time I ride on a bike laned road.
Thinking that you can control the behavior of others is the illusion, one that can get you killed.
chipcom
01-31-07, 08:21 PM
All the tests I've ever taken indicate I'm more of the visionary type. Just because you are blind to my vision, doesn't mean it's not there.
I once did a vision quest, during which I had conversations with a bear, a coyote, an eagle, an otter and some bearded dude in a wedding dress. When I recounted my visions to a shaman days later, he was silent for quite some time until finally he told me words that I remember to this day.
"I told you not to eat those mushrooms"
donnamb
01-31-07, 08:23 PM
I wonder what Mr. Kruse thinks the overtaking cyclist suppossed to be doing, stopping their bike and dismounting for all traffic?
Mr. Kruse is a moron, as many who know about Oregon poitics are quite aware. One can only hope that his esteemed cyclist colleague from his party (Jason Atkinson, the supporter of brakeless fixies) can knock some sense into him. I won't hold my breath, however.
donnamb
01-31-07, 08:27 PM
There was a great quote which came from a "House" episode last night. "To change something, you have to do something. If you just stay still, then nothing changes." The VC worldview is about holding the world still and not allowing cycling and society change. It is about coping with a problem, but never taking action to change the situation for the better. With the VC worldview, the assumption that cycling will never be a significant portion of the mix becomes self fulfilling. Vehicular cycling as a technique is invaluable. But as a worldview, it sucks.
Bravo, Brian! We may agree to disagree about the merits of Mr. Kruse, but I'm totally with you on this issue.
joejack951
01-31-07, 08:42 PM
I have not either, Brian. But I got the feeling from reading the article that they need to put something in the law about this to clarify it. At the same time, I was wondering what should people do if there's no room to pass for a long time. Is there something besides just waiting and waiting?
If you wanted to obey the strict letter of the law, the following applies in that situation:
On a two-lane highway where passing is unsafe because of traffic in the opposite direction or other conditions, a slow-moving vehicle, including a passenger vehicle, behind which five or more vehicles are formed in line, shall turn off the roadway at the nearest place designated as a turnout by signs erected by the authority having jurisdiction over the highway, or wherever sufficient area for a safe turnout exists, in order to permit the vehicles following it to proceed. As used in this section a slow-moving vehicle is one which is proceeding at a rate of speed less than the normal flow of traffic at the particular time and place.
Other states laws are very similar.
Many of us who ride on narrow roadways with significant traffic in both directions have had to do this before. On a bike, I've used intersecting roads or driveways as turnout spots when there was no other alternative. I've never actually pulled off the paved area of the road to let traffic by. I don't consider almost stopping in the roadway to negotiate the transistion from pavement to shoulder a safe movement.
galen_52657
01-31-07, 08:57 PM
The VC worldview is about holding the world still and not allowing cycling and society change. It is about coping with a problem, but never taking action to change the situation for the better. With the VC worldview, the assumption that cycling will never be a significant portion of the mix becomes self fulfilling. Vehicular cycling as a technique is invaluable. But as a worldview, it sucks.
Not sure about the 'VC worldview' (if there is one). My view is this: Dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator is what part of what's wrong with this country. Bicycle helmet proponents, bike lane proponents, they all want the same thing: A world with all possible dangers and conflicts removed - a world where people don't have to think about anything or learn anything. It's all be preprocessed, homogenized, pasteurized, sanitized and packaged for their safe consumption.... a world for the idiots.
Bekologist
01-31-07, 10:08 PM
Brian Ratliff, well said, sir, well said.
Helmet Head, you are SUCH a neophyte!
Besides, individual riding style has NOTHING to do with the passage of state laws. except maybe the recognizance of real time, real life riding.
mr. head, your sophmoric, sugar coated views of traffic bicycling continues to prove your lack of riding experience.
Brian Ratliff
01-31-07, 11:29 PM
Not sure about the 'VC worldview' (if there is one). My view is this: Dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator is what part of what's wrong with this country. Bicycle helmet proponents, bike lane proponents, they all want the same thing: A world with all possible dangers and conflicts removed - a world where people don't have to think about anything or learn anything. It's all be preprocessed, homogenized, pasteurized, sanitized and packaged for their safe consumption.... a world for the idiots.
No one said anything about dumbing down anything. Regardless of facilities, any time a cyclist is integrated into faster traffic streams, a modicum of skill is required to keep the bike in a straight line and understand rules of the road and the traffic symbols used. Nowhere do I suggest that advocacy efforts focus soley on facilities building; in fact, I've said, in this thread, exactly the opposite. Moreover, I haven't seen any advocacy group which soley advocates for new facilities. Most of their effort, in fact, is spent on outreach to teach children and adults cycling skills.
But really, why make traffic cycling harder than it can be? If you want to promote something, then you must make people want to do it. That's all we're talking about here.
As for Representative Kruse, I don't know the guy; I just grew up in Roseburg and knew his nephew (and shopped at Kruse Farms, which has, or used to have, an open air produce market near my old home). If I remember right, this nephew of his was a competative mountain biker and shaved his legs more than us swimteam folks. Looking up his name, I think he is now a photographer for the local paper.
Brian Ratliff
01-31-07, 11:49 PM
galen: one last observation. It seems you've got the "old grouch" syndrome; you've spent your entire life learning a skill set, only to see a generation come along and render most of that work irrelevent. There is nothing wrong with the "dumbing down" of common, everyday tasks. Helmets and airbags make mistakes easier to walk away from. Bike lanes, as you've so elegantly stated yourself, make cycling easier and more attractive to more people. Think computers for a moment. I crave for the day when a computer is merely an appliance, like the TV in my living room, despite being a "power user" of the Windows era.
So yes, bring it on. Bring on a world where everyday living is not a danger to your life. Bring on a world where you don't have to watch what you eat least you get sick. Bring on a world where, instead of needing to concentrate on the little mundane hazards of life, we can concentrate on big things and big ideas. And bring on a world where I don't have to rise to any particular occasion to pedal a bicycle across town.
joejack951
02-01-07, 04:55 AM
galen: one last observation. It seems you've got the "old grouch" syndrome; you've spent your entire life learning a skill set, only to see a generation come along and render most of that work irrelevent.
:rolleyes:
galen_52657
02-01-07, 05:14 AM
galen: one last observation. It seems you've got the "old grouch" syndrome; you've spent your entire life learning a skill set, only to see a generation come along and render most of that work irrelevent. There is nothing wrong with the "dumbing down" of common, everyday tasks. Helmets and airbags make mistakes easier to walk away from. Bike lanes, as you've so elegantly stated yourself, make cycling easier and more attractive to more people. Think computers for a moment. I crave for the day when a computer is merely an appliance, like the TV in my living room, despite being a "power user" of the Windows era.
So yes, bring it on. Bring on a world where everyday living is not a danger to your life. Bring on a world where you don't have to watch what you eat least you get sick. Bring on a world where, instead of needing to concentrate on the little mundane hazards of life, we can concentrate on big things and big ideas. And bring on a world where I don't have to rise to any particular occasion to pedal a bicycle across town.
Brian here is an observation right back at you: You have "young whippersnapper" syndrome. You think you know it all, but you still are crapping yellow, dude. You think every advance in technology is an actual improvement! You worship the "new and improved" when the fact is it's usually on just "new". Lets look at some of the things you mention above: Air bags in autos. Air bags have definitely improved the survivability of a high-speed crash. But, have they done anything to prevent the high speed crash??? The answer is NO! In fact there is evidence that air bags, like any safety device actually make people behave (in this case drive an auto) with less regard for safe operation for the very reason that in their mind, they are 'protected'. Same with bike lanes, same with helmets. It's an illusion of safety.
As for computers, the only thing computers have done is increase the speed of calculations and reduce the time it takes to gather and disseminate information. All the engineering, all the science...it's all been done before. Every bridge, every dam, every airship all the pertinent designing was done years ago by "old grouches" most of whom are dead now. Let's see what' new and improved from the younger crowd....'Facebook'..there's a good one!
Really Brian, your generation hasn't done jack shhhhhit. And with a mindset like yours there ain't much hope.......
Not sure about the 'VC worldview' (if there is one). My view is this: Dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator is what part of what's wrong with this country. Bicycle helmet proponents, bike lane proponents, they all want the same thing: A world with all possible dangers and conflicts removed - a world where people don't have to think about anything or learn anything. It's all be preprocessed, homogenized, pasteurized, sanitized and packaged for their safe consumption.... a world for the idiots.
:roflmao:
dude, I'm pretty sure Pasteurization and sanitation are GOOD things for idiots and geniuses alike.
Bekologist
02-01-07, 07:30 AM
Galen, joejack, helemt head, et al, passage of laws that benefit bicycling IS an advance for our society, dudes.
"Vehicular cyclists" and cyclists of all stripes benefit from safe passing laws. Continuance of the status quo offers no social remedy to improve cycling conditions.
Brian Ratliff has contributed a thoughtful analysis ringing with clarity.... It is extremely difficult to consider his viewpoint as uninformed or juvenile.
Some of you, on the other hand....
Perhaps it is because I've never seen the need for a mirror, but rather accepted that the risk from behind was low and focusing my attention to my peripheral vision and hearing, that I am more tolerant than you of "close passes." It might also be because my normal environment is a rural, single narrow laned road with no shoulder and short sightlines. Also because I lack a mirror, I tend to ride a straight line in a bike lane and make lateral adjustments as a strategy to occupy space rather than as a reaction to what is coming up from behind. What ever it is, what you have labeled a "close pass" is different than what I would label a "close pass."
Brian this is where you need a bit of reality check. While I too don't use a mirror sometimes... that "sometimes" situation is not in the dense urban commuting traffic that moves at 50MPH in my area. I chose not to use a mirror when I am in light traffic, on long paths, or lonely country roads where I can hear traffic approaching (such as my trip last summer on northern AZ hiways).
However, that is NOT the situation in dense urban traffic where one hears a nearly continuous "whoosh" from the constant stream of traffic. In that case, when I need to make a left turn or leave a BL, the mirror allows me to monitor traffic both in front and behind... to determine the best moment for a full head check... before I attempt to merge over. Without the mirror, I might have to make several headchecks... which would take my eyes off of the rapidly changing situation in front of me. In dense fast traffic... we need to be at least as prepared as the motorists... who use three mirrors.
Maybe in the Portland area they don't have the kind of wide multilaned boulevards with traffic moving at 50MPH like the do here in So Cal. I really don't recall anything like that in the city of Portland itself... but perhaps out by Gresham... like SE Division or SE Burnside...
At any rate, a mirror really helps in dense fast traffic.
As far as the "risk from the rear" I have never felt that occasional scanning would time out or sync up with well enough to see any car drifting over in time for me to bail out. Anything that happens with enough time for a bail out is not going to happen in the split seconds of an "every 3-4 second" mirror check. You might be lucky enough to catch that drifting car... but it would be due to luck, not due to the fact that you were checking a mirror.
The mirror does help though when one is in the right most wide lane... due to avoiding some situation in a BL. Then one can hold a straight line and watch the mirror to verify that you have been seen by any lead car, and hopefully by the close following autos behind. But that is not done with quick mirror checks either.
What I never do is depend on the mirror alone before merging over... the mirror just allows me to do one good head check at just the right moment.
On a side note I used to be able to look under my arms at traffic behind... (yup, upside down) but I can't seem to do that anymore.
galen_52657
02-01-07, 07:33 AM
:roflmao:
dude, I'm pretty sure Pasteurization and sanitation are GOOD things.
Depends. Unpasteurized beer is better than Pasteurized (must be fresh!). Overuse of germ-killing cleansers has lead to loss of immune system responses to pathogens as well as new strains of resistant microbes.
So, it's not always good.
chipcom
02-01-07, 07:35 AM
Yeah Galen, our generation has done so much good for the world, especially when it comes to cycling. We've ensured that every household has at least 2 cars and have plenty of 55+mph roads to get them to their jobs in the far away cities, speed limits high enough to ensure they get there as fast as possible and topped it off with marketing the perception that cycling is so dangerous that we should not only wear helmets, but dare not get in the way of traffic. Yes, our time as masters of the universe has left a virtual utopia for the youngins that we can only hope they screw up royally. :rolleyes:
Brian Ratliff
02-01-07, 07:36 AM
Brian here is an observation right back at you: You have "young whippersnapper" syndrome. You think you know it all, but you still are crapping yellow, dude. You think every advance in technology is an actual improvement! You worship the "new and improved" when the fact is it's usually on just "new". Lets look at some of the things you mention above: Air bags in autos. Air bags have definitely improved the survivability of a high-speed crash. But, have they done anything to prevent the high speed crash??? The answer is NO! In fact there is evidence that air bags, like any safety device actually make people behave (in this case drive an auto) with less regard for safe operation for the very reason that in their mind, they are 'protected'. Same with bike lanes, same with helmets. It's an illusion of safety.
As for computers, the only thing computers have done is increase the speed of calculations and reduce the time it takes to gather and disseminate information. All the engineering, all the science...it's all been done before. Every bridge, every dam, every airship all the pertinent designing was done years ago by "old grouches" most of whom are dead now. Let's see what' new and improved from the younger crowd....'Facebook'..there's a good one!
Really Brian, your generation hasn't done jack shhhhhit. And with a mindset like yours there ain't much hope.......
:eek:
Just to let you know, if you are over 40 and under 70, then it is your generation, not mine, which is responsible for airbags and helmets and all the other safety net stuff, and your generation is certainly responsible for the rise of the automobile. My generation is looking at vehicular stability control and collision avoidance systems on cars, and, oh yea, we're trying to get people out of cars and stop building freeways all over the place. Are you a baby boomer? Sore that, in not too much time, you're going to be living off my paycheck? Or are you doing that already...
Oh yea. You certainly spend enough time on "these internets" thing that you derided above. Same technology used in "Facebook" is what you are using to type on now.
Ah, the morning ***** session. Better than a cup of coffee. Remember for the record, you supplied the first rant.
My worldview is to figure out how to help those in the VC' category understand and appreciate the benefits of adopting the attitude/technique of VC'', and make vehicular cycling more and more acceptable and "normal" in our culture, such that finally even the "folk cyclists" (Jeffrey Hiles' term - google for "Listening to bike lanes" if interested) start moving in that direction.
The problem is, some personalities clash with VC''. Some people are not comfortable with an alpha dog role or with being steely eyed. Not everyone enjoys being "on the stage;" some folks would rather be "behind the scenes."
Think about this... a lot of motorists actually hide in their cars. The car provides a shield for them and offers a personality (typical Hummer driver for instance :rolleyes: ). That is where they are comfortable.
For some cyclists, trying to maintain the "stern" seriousness of VC'' may just not be workable. Having to shift one's natural attitude just doesn't work for everyone.
Bekologist
02-01-07, 07:50 AM
and it sure as heck doesn't work when communities began to explore road design or laws that benefit and accomodate bicycling, gene.
communities need to look at cyclists from the least skilled riders' perspective, or the middle of the bell curve, rather than the armchair elitism seen in bike forums.
Predicating this VC-uber riding on the rest of society is perhaps the BIGGEST disservice the uber cyclists do to bicycling, both in this forum and locally.
What do you think the appropriate alternative is for a motorist who wants to pass a cyclist but has to choose between crossing the double yellow line (illegal) or passing closer than 3' (illegal if this law goes into effect)? And by alternative, I mean also alternative to waiting and waiting like if the road was narrow for miles and miles.
Why should a motorist pass when it is double yellow? Why can't they wait a minute or two for a dashed yellow to indicate it is a safe area to attempt a pass?
This is the thing... motorists should treat us just like any other traffic on the road. If a motorist is going to pass any other slow vehicle, they wait for the right moment,based on having slowed down, checking for clearance, and ensuring that the pass is safe first. Why is there any assumption at all that this should be any different when passing a cyclist?
About 6 months ago my wife and I were on some narrow mountainous roads... we came upon a cyclist in full touring gear, riding in the right tire track of the narrow road. My wife asked "now what?" I told her... "pretend it is a slow VW... what would you do." She beamed... "Oh, ok, no problem." She waited a minute, saw the dashed yellow and a clear area to pass, and did so without grief.
It is that easy... yet, for some reason, motorists feel they have to pass cyclists ASAP or what, lightning will hit them??!?
That is exactly the situation portrayed by all those motorists decrying the 3 foot rules... "Oh I will hit head on with other traffic..." Really... did they suddenly forget how to properly pass? Sheesh. ;)
I have not either, Brian. But I got the feeling from reading the article that they need to put something in the law about this to clarify it. At the same time, I was wondering what should people do if there's no room to pass for a long time. Is there something besides just waiting and waiting?
Again, pretend you are following a slow VW bus. What do you do?
If the cyclist is being followed by a line of cars, they should find a suitable safe turnout and allow the traffic to pass. The same thing can apply to one single car and a long time to pass.
But otherwise... that bike is just like a slow old VW bus. Drive accordingly.
BTW I have thought for a long time about wearing different slogan T shirts on my commutes... one of them might say: "Imagine I am a Cement Truck."
Not sure about the 'VC worldview' (if there is one). My view is this: Dumbing everything down to the lowest common denominator is what part of what's wrong with this country. Bicycle helmet proponents, bike lane proponents, they all want the same thing: A world with all possible dangers and conflicts removed - a world where people don't have to think about anything or learn anything. It's all be preprocessed, homogenized, pasteurized, sanitized and packaged for their safe consumption.... a world for the idiots.
LOL Bike Lanes don't remove danger. They simply offer a way for all traffic to flow smoother... just like all the other lanes on the road.
Roads would work fine without lanes... but the traffic flow would not be as smooth. Add a line in the center, and traffic stays on either side of it. Add more lines and you create lanes. Add a BL stripe and you smooth the flow past cyclists. No presumption of safety.
galen_52657
02-01-07, 08:02 AM
BTW I have thought for a long time about wearing different slogan T shirts on my commutes... one of them might say: "Imagine I am a Cement Truck."
I have had that same idea!!!!
:roflmao:
dude, I'm pretty sure Pasteurization and sanitation are GOOD things for idiots and geniuses alike.
:beer: :beer: :beer:
Not to mention refridgeration, running water, clean food processing, electricity. And computers and communication... they improve the economy... ask any developing nation.
and it sure as heck doesn't work when communities began to explore road design or laws that benefit and accomodate bicycling, gene.
communities need to look at cyclists from the least skilled riders' perspective, or the middle of the bell curve, rather than the armchair elitism seen in bike forums.
Middle of the bell curve... I don't want to be stuck on sidewalk like bike paths simply because they work for grandma. But then we all don't need to be growling lions either.
Bekologist
02-01-07, 08:15 AM
i think this thread is about safe passing laws, gene.
sbhikes
02-01-07, 08:17 AM
Gene, the trouble with the VW bus analogy is the VW bus isn't passable in the same lane. The bicycle is, more or less. I think that is why people pass so much and so closely. (Also, the bike is going 15 and the VW bus is going 35 so who wants to wait at 15 mph?) So, while I agree people should wait, I think this needs to be explicitly explained in the law. At least if it was, then you can blame the law for slowing people down behind you instead of blaming the bicycle.
My worldview is to figure out how to help those in the VC' category understand and appreciate the benefits of adopting the attitude/technique of VC''
Huh? Sounds like some kind of virus or something. You want to spread the virus even stronger among those who have it.
and make vehicular cycling more and more acceptable and "normal" in our culture, such that finally even the "folk cyclists" (Jeffrey Hiles' term - google for "Listening to bike lanes" if interested) start moving in that direction.
"Normal"? Or do you mean Muggles"?
People who don't subscribe to Forester dogma are not "folk cyclists". People who use integrated on-street cycling facilities and bikeways are not "folk cyclists" in need of The Epiphany. Please stop proselytizing to us. We've seen what's available, discovered what works well for us and want more of it.
Gene, the trouble with the VW bus analogy is the VW bus isn't passable in the same lane. The bicycle is, more or less. I think that is why people pass so much and so closely. (Also, the bike is going 15 and the VW bus is going 35 so who wants to wait at 15 mph?) So, while I agree people should wait, I think this needs to be explicitly explained in the law. At least if it was, then you can blame the law for slowing people down behind you instead of blaming the bicycle.
This is EXACTLY why I feel that motorists need more training. This is the kind of stuff that is barely covered in a 6 week driver's ed class and is quickly forgotten in the stress to learn the basics.
This is EXACTLY why PSAs are needed to remind drivers that there is more to sharing the road then simply pointing the wheel in the right direction.
I have not yet figured out why 6 weeks is enough "training" for a life long activity with a heavy powerful machine, when several semesters are devoted to "english," for instance.
Bekologist
02-01-07, 08:59 AM
one of the uber-VC armchair secrets bandied about in A&S by uber armchair cyclist HH himself, is driving like you were riding a bike, but i hardly think that's the anwser for the majority that doesn't ride....
Bekologist
02-01-07, 09:01 AM
I'm no folk cyclist, i ride VC''' and I STILL want better recognizance of bicycles in state laws that benefit riders of all abilities, dangnabit!!!
noisebeam
02-01-07, 09:04 AM
I have not yet figured out why 6 weeks is enough "training" for a life long activity with a heavy powerful machine, when several semesters are devoted to "english," for instance.
Training is not required if one want to get a license at 18 or over - just a written and hand-on test. In AZ, varies by state of course.
Al
so what is a "folk Cyclist"? does it involve a dulcimer and sea shanties? or is it some derisive term ... hm, lemme guess.
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 09:13 AM
Gene, the trouble with the VW bus analogy is the VW bus isn't passable in the same lane. The bicycle is, more or less. I think that is why people pass so much and so closely. (Also, the bike is going 15 and the VW bus is going 35 so who wants to wait at 15 mph?)
The analogy still works to a large extent.
While the cyclist appears to be more passable, he can influence that perception to a much larger extent than most cyclists, even most VC' cyclists, seem to realize.
Bicycle helmet proponents, bike lane proponents, they all want the same thing: A world with all possible dangers and conflicts removed - a world where people don't have to think about anything or learn anything.
How to lose all credibility in one easy step.
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 10:24 AM
How to lose all credibility in one easy step.
You can't lose any, much less "all", of something that you never had.
I wouldn't give any particular poster any credibility in an internet forum (nor do I expect to be given any).
What matters is what is said and whether it is compelling to you or not, and for what reasons, regardless of who says it or how much "credibility" they have.
The analogy still works to a large extent.
While the cyclist appears to be more passable, he can influence that perception to a much larger extent than most cyclists, even most VC' cyclists, seem to realize.
Hey HH, what do you think of my sloganed T shirt idea?
I already have a whole drawer of orange or red shirts. Figured I would try to get some message across to the motorists out there by using different slogans on the shirts.
"Imagine I am a cement truck"
"<---- Keep Left"
"One less car, one more parking space."
"Share the Road" CVC 21202
"Less Fuel, Fewer Wars"
"Ride to Live, Live to Ride"
Those are just a few ideas.
noisebeam
02-01-07, 11:23 AM
"Imagine I am a cement truck"
"<---- Keep Left"
"One less car, one more parking space."
"Share the Road" CVC 21202
"Less Fuel, Fewer Wars"
"Ride to Live, Live to Ride"
Those are just a few ideas.
'your as dense as one too'
but what if you in left turn lane, or left biased in rt/thru lane, or in left thru lane when merging for turn?
'and one more a-hole'
'yeah, share buddy and move the f over'
'[insert latest epithet for lib environlist]'
'go lance go'
Point is that some slogans can be seen as better than you and incite the need to disparage/dominate/put in in place.
Al
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 12:05 PM
My favorite is still:
POLITE
(they've already changed lanes long before they figure out it doesn't say POLICE)
My favorite is still:
POLITE
(they've already changed lanes long before they figure out it doesn't say POLICE)
Good one.
chipcom
02-01-07, 01:58 PM
My favorite is still:
POLITE
(they've already changed lanes long before they figure out it doesn't say POLICE)
:beer: Gotta give credit where credit is due. BRILLIANT!
I-Like-To-Bike
02-01-07, 02:30 PM
:beer: Gotta give credit where credit is due. BRILLIANT!
You are right. Give credit where credit is due.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=669449&postcount=15
sbhikes
02-01-07, 02:38 PM
Can I bring my fiddle to the folks cyclist convention?
I think Folk Cyclists must be only mountain bikers, since back in the woods thay ain't got none of them fancy see-ment roads. sure, bring your fiddle, and I'll bring my washboard and jug.
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 04:07 PM
Bicycling: the “folk transportation”
While Effective Cycling is presumably guided by extensive planning and analysis, bicycling
in general is much more free form, which should not be confused with chaotic, even
though it may sometimes look that way. Part of the appeal of bicycling for some people is
that it offers the freedom to go places and do things that a car driver couldn’t without
being a threat to health and property. Bicyclists enjoy more spontaneity than motorists.
Cincinnati traffic engineer Jim Coppock, who is also a folk musician, folk dancer, avid
bicyclist, and bicycle advocate, describes bicycling as “folk transportation,” an apt
description of this informal method of moving about. One of bicycling’s greatest assets,
arguably its single most socially significant attribute, is the mobility it offers people from a
wide range of ages, abilities, and economic means. There is no test to pass or driver’s
license fee to pay. “Expert” cyclists may sigh and shake their heads as they watch other
bicyclists improvise their way through traffic, but the behavior they are seeing goes hand
in hand with a vehicle that’s as available to five your olds and people with Down’s
syndrome as it is to three-time Tour de France winner Greg LeMond.
http://www.wright.edu/~jeffrey.hiles/essays/listening/ch5.html#folk
Brian Ratliff
02-01-07, 05:00 PM
^^^^^
I don't get it. Are you saying that you are Jim Coppock?
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 05:05 PM
^^^^^
I don't get it. Are you saying that you are Jim Coppock?
No.
I introduced the term to this thread back in #45 (with a reference).
Others seem to have misunderstood its intended meaning since then, so I sourced it.
Brian Ratliff
02-01-07, 05:26 PM
I still don't get it. Your source doesn't use the term you introduced. It describes "folk transportation," but I take it to be an descriptor for the act of bicycling in and of itself, or at least, of what the author think cycling should be. In fact, I looked through the entire chapter you linked to and didn't find that term.
How about you end all debate and simply make it known what the traits are of a "folk cyclist"?
Brian Ratliff
02-01-07, 05:28 PM
You are right. Give credit where credit is due.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=669449&postcount=15
Looks like someone is plagiarizing.
Helmet Head
02-01-07, 05:30 PM
By folk cyclists, I meant cyclists whose first priority is staying out of the way of motor traffic, and using whatever space is left over.
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