Bicycle Mechanics - Machine built wheel - why not???

I understand the desirability of a custom built wheel with selected products but if a machine built wheel is round and true, what is wrong with a machine built wheel? If I had a custom wheel built with exactly the same components as a machine built wheel (round and true), what would be the argument that the custom wheel is better????? Also, if I bought a machine built wheel that might not be perfectly round & true but I tuned it up to make it round/true, how is that any different from a custom built wheel?

I am asking because I expect to soon buy new wheels (nothing exotic) and I am trying to understand why I should pay a premium for custom built wheels when the wheel I am most likey to buy also comes as a stock wheel set which is most likely machine built....which I can tweek after I get it if necessary.

Because the machines aren't good enough yet. Technically a machine can build a better wheel faster if it were designed properly.

Handbuilt vs. machine built from the Rodriguez Bicycles site.

http://www.rodcycle.com/articles/wheels.html

Generally speaking, you can buy pre-built wheels, most of which are probably built by machines, for quite a bit less money than you'll spend if you buy the parts of the wheel separately. That's the main advantage, in my opinion. From there, my experience has been that pre-built wheels have about a 50-50 chance of being true and tensioned properly right out of the box. I've bought several of these pre-built wheelsets, and when I do I factor in the fact that there's a good chance I'll need to re-tension the wheel (and of course true it) before it's ready to ride. If nothing else, it's the cheapest way to buy the parts-

Generally speaking, you can buy pre-built wheels, most of which are probably built by machines, for quite a bit less money than you'll spend if you buy the parts of the wheel separately. That's the main advantage, in my opinion. From there, my experience has been that pre-built wheels have about a 50-50 chance of being true and tensioned properly right out of the box. I've bought several of these pre-built wheelsets, and when I do I factor in the fact that there's a good chance I'll need to re-tension the wheel (and of course true it) before it's ready to ride. If nothing else, it's the cheapest way to buy the parts-
+1

It's cheaper to buy the pre-built wheels rather than the hubs, rims, spokes, nipples, etc., individually. It's then not that big a deal to true, tension, and stress-relieve them since they're probably pretty close out of the box.

I opt to get machine built wheels then have them stress relived and tensioned my by LBS
I still save a boatload of money when I purchase wheels and the LBS only charges me $30.00 or so
so for $150 I can have a wheelset that is perfect for me as compared to 2.5X that much for them to be handbuilt and probably offer me nothing more in terms of stability or durability

Handbuilt vs. machine built from the Rodriguez Bicycles site.




The Rodriguez site provided an interesting view point about machine built wheels I had not realized. He highlights that spoke tension in machine built wheels is not uniformly appled around the wheel during buildup. It is applied in a way that caused the wheel to assume an oval shape before all spokes are fully tensioned and the rim is back to round. This out-of-round condition during build up can harm the wheel and reduce its life. If this is typical for all machine built wheels and his assertions about stress cracks is true, that is a strong reason to lean toward a custom built wheel.
Anyone know if this is a common process in all machine built wheels?

+1

It's cheaper to buy the pre-built wheels rather than the hubs, rims, spokes, nipples, etc., individually. It's then not that big a deal to true, tension, and stress-relieve them since they're probably pretty close out of the box.

+1 to that. If you have access to a tensionmeter and truing stand there's no reason to pay extravagant prices for a "hand built" wheel.

once you learn to build your own the answers to these questions become self evident.

I just wonder why the machines aren't made to build the wheels better. Is it, like so many other things, because pennies can be saved doing the job half-assed? The higher-quality product isn't noticed by the majority of people, and the company doesn't have the pride to do it right anyway?

i'd much rather have average machine built wheel that's hand finished by a competent wheelbuilder than a poorly assembled hand built wheel.

further, i think unless you know the wheelbuilder and he's good you're better off getting a hand tensioned machine built wheel.

i've ridden plenty of both :eek:

ed rader

If the wheels you want are available machine built, get the machine built ones. You can always retrue and tension them if needed. Some of us just have different specs in mind (rims, hubs, spokes, etc.), which aren't available in machine built. Also, some of us just like knowing we accomplished something.

+1

It's cheaper to buy the pre-built wheels rather than the hubs, rims, spokes, nipples, etc., individually. It's then not that big a deal to true, tension, and stress-relieve them since they're probably pretty close out of the box.

+2 to that.

Not saying hand made wheels aren't preferable. But, should one test the spoke tension of both kinds of wheels; are they not the same. ? Is that not the ultimate indicator of a perfectly made wheel. ?

I'd say a vast majority of the 'out of a box' bikes out there have machine built wheels. Most likely they're machine built bikes too.

I saw this video a while back that took you on a tour of a bicycle assembly line. Everything from cutting the tubes, jiging up and welding it up are all done by machine.

The wheel building part was amazing! From what I recall the hoop is held in three or four places and these armatures come up the center and place all the spokes while an arry of nipple holder/drivers sets the nipples and gave the spoke initial tension.

From there it went to an automated truing stand which spun the wheel briefly and registered sopkes that needed adjustment a few back & forth shuffles and the wheel was spun again for verification then moved along the line.

I agree theres nothing like building you own wheels, paying someone to do it for you can be prohibitive. As with anything we put on our bkies, a machine built wheel should be checked for function befor being placed into service.

I'd say a vast majority of the 'out of a box' bikes out there have machine built wheels. Most likely they're machine built bikes too.

I saw this video a while back that took you on a tour of a bicycle assembly line. Everything from cutting the tubes, jiging up and welding it up are all done by machine.

The wheel building part was amazing! From what I recall the hoop is held in three or four places and these armatures come up the center and place all the spokes while an arry of nipple holder/drivers sets the nipples and gave the spoke initial tension.

From there it went to an automated truing stand which spun the wheel briefly and registered sopkes that needed adjustment a few back & forth shuffles and the wheel was spun again for verification then moved along the line.

I agree theres nothing like building you own wheels, paying someone to do it for you can be prohibitive. As with anything we put on our bkies, a machine built wheel should be checked for function befor being placed into service.


I would love to see that video. Do you remember where you saw it?

I would love to see that video. Do you remember where you saw it?

I saw it on the Discovery Channel's "How It's Made" show. A fascinating program about assembly lines and factories for a wide range of everyday products.

Because the machines aren't good enough yet.

Some are. Wheelsmith wheels are machine built and they are both accurately true and properly tensioned and stress relieved. It can be done.

As to "prebuilt" wheels, I've had excellent results with Colorado Cyclist wheels. They are apparently machine built but final truing and tensioning are done by hand. CC offers a wide range of hubs, rims and spokes at prices an individual can't come close to.

I've also heard good things about the wheels built by Excel Sports but I have no personal experience with them.

Yes, exactly, that's where it was!

QBP offers handbuilt wheels thru their catalog. talk to your local bike shop.

I saw it on the Discovery Channel's "How It's Made" show. A fascinating program about assembly lines and factories for a wide range of everyday products.

THANKS!! I love shows like that and I've been trying to catch something on wheel building for a while now. I found it online at http://dsc.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=18&cpi=103469&gid=0&channel=DSC It is airing three times this month on discovery. FEB 09 2007 @ 09:00 AM, FEB 09 2007
@ 05:00 PM and FEB 16 2007 @ 12:00 PM All times are eastern.

For the record, I'm with the majority here. I will not ride on a machine built wheel - - with a caveat. I do buy them and re-tension them myself. There is just no cheaper way to get a good quality wheel. That said, I will be building a set from scratch this spring because I can't find the combo of components I'm looking for in a pre built wheel.

I would love to see that video. Do you remember where you saw it?

There are some videos on the Holland Mechanics site (they make wheel building machines)

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

Look through the machines (lots of them) and pick out some videos for lacing, truing and stressing. These things can do up to 55 wheels per hour!

Same difference as an original painting and a print.
Same difference as a custom built automobile and an assembly version.
Same difference as Lance's hand built racing bike and the store bought version.

Will the machine built version be adequate. Probably, given the retension/retrue clause.
How good do you want it to be?

There are some videos on the Holland Mechanics site (they make wheel building machines)

http://www.hollandmechanics.com/

Look through the machines (lots of them) and pick out some videos for lacing, truing and stressing. These things can do up to 55 wheels per hour!


Thanks!! That was cool! Now I'm sure I like the hand built stuff.

Buy the machine made wheels, loosen all the spokes, lube all the nipples and spokes and then true, dish, tension and stress the wheels.

There, you have custom wheels for the price of machine made wheels!

I think it's a matter of recognizing the advantages and limitations of machines. They are best for the assembly process which will give a uniform result as long as everything is working properly.

Popping the spokes into place and spinning on a nipple just isn't that complicated a process.

Final tuning and tensioning, however, require more precise decisions based on very subtle feedback, something that can be approached with complex programming but is really more suited to the human touch.

The Rodriguez site provided an interesting view point about machine built wheels I had not realized. He highlights that spoke tension in machine built wheels is not uniformly appled around the wheel during buildup. It is applied in a way that caused the wheel to assume an oval shape before all spokes are fully tensioned and the rim is back to round. This out-of-round condition during build up can harm the wheel and reduce its life. If this is typical for all machine built wheels and his assertions about stress cracks is true, that is a strong reason to lean toward a custom built wheel.
Anyone know if this is a common process in all machine built wheels?

Good question... I am eager to know, too. Sounds like machine-built wheels are permanently damaged a little bit, and even if re-tentioned, will not "live" as long and perform as well as a hand-built wheel from the get-go. I don't know if this is true, but it is what the Rodriguez Cycles article says.

i'd much rather have average machine built wheel that's hand finished by a competent wheelbuilder than a poorly assembled hand built wheel.

further, i think unless you know the wheelbuilder and he's good you're better off getting a hand tensioned machine built wheel.

i've ridden plenty of both :eek:

ed rader


I couldnt agree more. It takes hundreds of builds for a for a hand builder to become truely competent with an understanding of the dynamics of wheel building.


I've hand build over 2,000 wheels yet I buy machine built wheels. Why? Because I save a ton of money. When I get the machine built wheels home I de-tension the spokes then re-tension them myself.

.....That said, I will be building a set from scratch this spring because I can't find the combo of components I'm looking for in a pre built wheel.


same reason here......for me, usually with some vintage wheel components I find on Ebay.

The only problem I see is that there isn't a wide selection of hub-rim-spoke-lacing combinations at deep discounts.

I'd have no qualms about buying machine-built, loosening the spokes, and starting from there by hand. The parts and lacing should be just fine.

I just wonder why the machines aren't made to build the wheels better. Is it, like so many other things, because pennies can be saved doing the job half-assed? The higher-quality product isn't noticed by the majority of people, and the company doesn't have the pride to do it right anyway?

Probably for much the same reason why you can't find cars that drive themselves or machines that can play a violin or machines that can ride a bicycle...there are too many variables. Machines do things well. They can do the same thing the same way all the time. But throw in something out of the ordinary and the machine can't really react.

For example, as a hand builder of wheels, I can 'feel' when a spoke has enough tension or not enough, relative to the other spokes on the wheel. I look at the wheel as a whole. A machine can probably gauge the tension of an individual spoke but not all the spokes at the same time. The machine can't really look at the wheel in the same way as I can. There are lots of decisions I make during the wheel building that I doubt you could easily program a machine to do. You could do it but it wouldn't be cheap nor easy.

Probably for much the same reason why you can't find cars that drive themselves or machines that can play a violin or machines that can ride a bicycle...there are too many variables.
Robots can't ride bikes? What, are you living in 2004 or something? ;)

Here's one going hunting for Sarah Connor:

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051004/051004_robot_hmed_6p.hmedium.jpg
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9594086/

Robots can't ride bikes? What, are you living in 2004 or something? ;)
Ahh, the miracle of gyroscopes.

As an example, my wife's 5200 Trek is equipped with Bontrager Race Lite wheels, not my first choice but it was the best CF bike I could find that fit her, 650 wheels. The spoke tension was very uneven on both wheels, some spokes had ridiculously low tension. Before her first ride I put the wheels on the truing stand, retensioned, dished, and trued. The front wheel has a slight lateral bow, maybe 1mm that cannot be trued by spoke adjustments because it is between the paired spokes. I think the wheels should not have left the manufacturer in such condition, and further the dealer should have checked them. These problems didn't bother me much because I knew I could fix the wheels but it does make me wonder what happens to owners who may expect their new bikes be perfect when new. It's no wonder that machine built wheels have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not.

Al

As an example, my wife's 5200 Trek is equipped with Bontrager Race Lite wheels, not my first choice but it was the best CF bike I could find that fit her, 650 wheels. The spoke tension was very uneven on both wheels, some spokes had ridiculously low tension. Before her first ride I put the wheels on the truing stand, retensioned, dished, and trued. The front wheel has a slight lateral bow, maybe 1mm that cannot be trued by spoke adjustments because it is between the paired spokes. I think the wheels should not have left the manufacturer in such condition, and further the dealer should have checked them. These problems didn't bother me much because I knew I could fix the wheels but it does make me wonder what happens to owners who may expect their new bikes be perfect when new. It's no wonder that machine built wheels have a bad reputation, whether deserved or not.

Al

I really hate low-spoke-count wheels with paired spokes.

Ahh, the miracle of gyroscopes.

Yeah; your bike has two of them.

Robots can't ride bikes? What, are you living in 2004 or something? ;)

Here's one going hunting for Sarah Connor:

http://msnbcmedia1.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/051004/051004_robot_hmed_6p.hmedium.jpg
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9594086/

Put him on the road. He'd be scrap inside of 30 seconds;)

Your responses are exactly what I was looking for as the OP. The concept of rebuilding a new machine built wheel bring up a new question.

Since all the spokes are already installed, what would be a good stepwise approach to the rebuilding process...as opposed to building a wheel from scratch? As a total novis at wheel building, I can see 3 possible approaches.
1) Loosen all spokes and retighten individually as if you were following a traditional wheel building approach. Maybe remove nipples and lube them in the process.
2) Start with "as built" and just adjust each spoke individually to make it true. Sounds like this is what the shops that sell "hand adjusted" machine built wheels do.
3) Start with "as built", remove each spoke individually (not as a group) so wheel stays "close to true", lube the nipple and reinstall the spoke as required to play its part in the trueing process.

Other prefered approaches? Any good books on "rebuilding" a wheel? All I have found so far assume you are building from scratch.

Your responses are exactly what I was looking for as the OP. The concept of rebuilding a new machine built wheel bring up a new question.

Since all the spokes are already installed, what would be a good stepwise approach to the rebuilding process...as opposed to building a wheel from scratch? As a total novis at wheel building, I can see 3 possible approaches.
1) Loosen all spokes and retighten individually as if you were following a traditional wheel building approach. Maybe remove nipples and lube them in the process.
2) Start with "as built" and just adjust each spoke individually to make it true. Sounds like this is what the shops that sell "hand adjusted" machine built wheels do.
3) Start with "as built", remove each spoke individually (not as a group) so wheel stays "close to true", lube the nipple and reinstall the spoke as required to play its part in the trueing process.

Other prefered approaches? Any good books on "rebuilding" a wheel? All I have found so far assume you are building from scratch.

I'd go with option 1, to include removing the nipples, oiling the spoke threads, then reinstalling the nipples.

As far as a good reference is concerned on truing and tensioning (as opposed to complete wheelbuilding), you can download the Barnett's Manual chapter on truing, tensioning, and stress-relieving HERE (http://www.bbinstitute.com/manual.htm) for free. Scroll to the bottom of the page and right-click on "Download Chapter 17: Wheel Truing and Repair" and save the pdf file to your hard drive.

I'd go with option 1, to include removing the nipples, oiling the spoke threads, then reinstalling the nipples.

As far as a good reference is concerned on truing and tensioning (as opposed to complete wheelbuilding), you can download the Barnett's Manual chapter on truing, tensioning, and stress-relieving HERE (http://www.bbinstitute.com/manual.htm) for free. Scroll to the bottom of the page and right-click on "Download Chapter 17: Wheel Truing and Repair" and save the pdf file to your hard drive.

I forgot about Barnett's as a source. Did a quick skim of Barnette's trueing process and it looks like good info for what I am looking for.

Peter White Cycles prices for handbuilt wheelset, front and rear.

Road
Wheelsmith 14-16 butted spokes, Mavic Open Pro silver rims, 32 hole.
Dura Ace 10 $ 604.06
Dura Ace 9 $ 550.58
Ultegra $ 390.58
Tiagra $ 300.58

Mountain
LX hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes, Mavic X517 rims $ 262.90

Loaded Touring
Mavic A719 silver rims, 14-16 Wheelsmith spokes, 36 spokes
XTR $ 559.54
XT $ 361.53
LX $ 332.54

These prices don't look expensive to me. Don't forget the old saying, penny wise, pound foolish.

Peter White Cycles prices for handbuilt wheelset, front and rear.

Road
Wheelsmith 14-16 butted spokes, Mavic Open Pro silver rims, 32 hole.
Dura Ace 10 $ 604.06
Dura Ace 9 $ 550.58
Ultegra $ 390.58
Tiagra $ 300.58

Mountain
LX hubs, Wheelsmith DB14 spokes, Mavic X517 rims $ 262.90

Loaded Touring
Mavic A719 silver rims, 14-16 Wheelsmith spokes, 36 spokes
XTR $ 559.54
XT $ 361.53
LX $ 332.54

These prices don't look expensive to me. Don't forget the old saying, penny wise, pound foolish.
I built a set with Record hubs, Velocity Aerohead rims, and DT double butted spokes for under $300. Compared to the $600 Dura Ace set, I got a deal!

The Record hubs alone cost around $300. Velocity Aerohead rims around $100 a set. Spokes $50-75.
You must have found some super deals or used used parts, nothing wrong with that.
And you performed the labor.

The Record hubs alone cost around $300. Velocity Aerohead rims around $100 a set. Spokes $50-75.
You must have found some super deals or used used parts, nothing wrong with that.
And you performed the labor.
You're absolutely correct, but nobody ever offers such deals on handbuilt wheels, while you can find deals on hubs and rims almost anywhere. I bought the rear hub for $130 on sale, the front hub for $20 off ebay, the rims were $50 and $45 at Cambria bike, and I bought the spokes from Cambria as well.

And you're also right that I did the labor, so it depends on if the person can build wheels or not. What does a set of machine built Ultegra/OP cost? That would be a good comparison.

My Deep-V/Ultegra/db DT wheelset cost about $310 for all new parts. Not a steal, but I was unable to find the parts anywhere else cheaper. At least I had exactly what I wanted (for the money). It was a fun build -- and I built an identical set for my brother-in-law a month later :D