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So let us play a game
go here and then write your answers down.
http://members.cox.net/bbahn/images2/Copy%20of%20blornot.html
Keep in mind I am going by what they say it is. Not what it really is.
Note if you feel confused the driver is going to be also.
This is an archived thread, you can find the full version of this thread, with images, links and more content
here.
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They pretty much all looked like shoulders, including the single one witha bike lane stencil in it. I didn't see any BL stencils in any of the others. I suppose you'll tell us that really they were all bike lanes, except the stencils for the others were out of the picture?
Does it really matter if they are bike lanes or not? I mean, aren't you going to ride to your advantage regardless?
By the way, some of those places are really pretty.
Pictures D, E, and I are not bike lanes. Pic D is a parking lane. Pic E and I are shoulders to judge by the width. Everything else seems okay to ride in, looking at it, as I am, from a distance.
I should add that 'L' looks kind of weird with that split road there.
They pretty much all looked like shoulders, including the single one witha bike lane stencil in it. I didn't see any BL stencils in any of the others. I suppose you'll tell us that really they were all bike lanes, except the stencils for the others were out of the picture?
In what way? Can you expand on that thought?
they all looked like bike lanes to me except for the one with the "1801" address sign in it and the fifth one down....some better than others. the last one could be a RTOL.
B is a bike lane
The rest I would define as shoulders with "I" in the sub category of shoulder, the dirt shoulder.
I've observed that people who live in the south call almost any extra section of pavement out of the traffic lane the bike lane, while people in the north call most of them shoulders unless they get labeled (like B). This is likely because shoulders are so much more common in places that get lasting snow. Many northern climate roads are built with paved shoulders so the plow blade is on pavement all the time, but can still completely clear the traffic lane. A side effect up here is even many low-med volm. rural roads where you wouldn't expect much bike traffic have an 18" or 36" shoulder similiar to those in your photos. They don't get thought of as bike lanes, so people call them shoulders.
Scot
If it doesn't have signage and stenciling to designate it as a bike lane, it's not a bike lane.
Regardless if bike lane or not, would I ride in the stretch shown, as a courtesy to faster moving vehicles or for my own advantage?
A. No
B. Yes
C. Maybe
D. No
E. No
F. No
G. Maybe
H. No
I. No
J. No
K. No
L. No
M. Yes
N. No
Those are basically shoulders designed for driver "Error" and nothing more. Only those with the stencil are bike lanes.
Anywhere with that few potholes is perfect road cycling terrain to me.
Very interesting responses so far. I think this shows we need some better ways to desginate bike lanes.
The answers may surprise you I will post them on Monday.
Well a Shoulder allows me to choose. A bike lane by law I have to use.
Most have no problems I use them to my advantage.
Bike lane or not... I'd ride on any of them.
I agree with Scott Gore , who said: "I've observed that people who live in the south call almost any extra section of pavement out of the traffic lane the bike lane, while people in the north call most of them shoulders"
Although I would add that bicycling is a year round activity in the South, while many up North put their bikes away for the winter. The fact that plowed snow fills the bike lane has something to do with this, but mainly because it's too cold for most people.
We use stencils like these (http://flickr.com/groups/95715266@N00/pool/).
At the risk of sounding like some VC zealot, I see bike lanes on all of those, because every lane is a bike lane! :D
At the risk of sounding like some VC zealot, I see bike lanes on all of those, because every lane is a bike lane! :D
Hmmmm. You live in Ohio, Daily Commuter is from Ohio. Hmmmmm.
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/images/smilies/alc.gif
Hmmmm. You live in Ohio, Daily Commuter is from Ohio. Hmmmmm.
He's from Columbus...we only tolerate them claiming to be from Ohio when the Buckeyes are winning. :p
Don't mess with me today ILTB, otherwise somebody might start one of those annoying Happy BDay threads over in Foo!. :eek:
He's from Columbus...we only tolerate them claiming to be from Ohio when the Buckeyes are winning. :p
Yeah, what have those Buckeyes done lately?
This year's football record:
PSU = one Bowl Win, no losses.
OSU = nuff said!
Yeah, what have those Buckeyes done lately?
This year's football record:
PSU = one Bowl Win, no losses.
OSU = nuff said!
Good point, we have no Columbus!
Don't mess with me today ILTB, otherwise somebody might start one of those annoying Happy BDay threads over in Foo!. :eek:
Don't I know it about :eek: getting older. I just started taking cholesterol medication for this B-day.
Don't I know it about :eek: getting older. I just started taking cholesterol medication for this B-day.
Now see, if you were a 'serious' cyclist, you wouldn't need such things...you'd just slather on some butt cream, climb aboard your trusty trainer and work harder to get to 1% body fat, which is the cure for all ills.
Now see, if you were a 'serious' cyclist, you wouldn't need such things...you'd just slather on some butt cream, climb aboard your trusty trainer and work harder to get to 1% body fat, which is the cure for all ills.
I thought reading the Good Book was the answer. I must have been misinformed.
I thought reading the Good Book was the answer. I must have been misinformed.
OMG how could I forget that? FORGIVE ME LORD FORRESTER, I AM A HERETIC!! Now they're gonna sentence me to a twelve step LAB program.
I'll byte:D :
B has the stencil in it, so that's a given, although it's a little narrow, it's a Yes.
A looks like a major highway, so I probably wouldn't ride there anyway - no.
D is a parking lane, although spots are not marked, as they typically would be - no.
F,H,J,L&M are not marked, but look like they could be used as a bike lane, if needed - maybe.
C,E,I&K are too narrow and/or too poor a condition to be bike lanes - no.
N can't be determined from the photo - maybe.
How did I do?
Does it really matter if they are bike lanes or not? I mean, aren't you going to ride to your advantage regardless?
Yes it does matter in most states. Since most states require bike lane use if marked as a bike lane but do not require that cyclist ride on the shoulder.
If it does not matter to you, why do you push so hard for bike lanes?
Yes it does matter in most states. Since most states require bike lane use if marked as a bike lane but do not require that cyclist ride on the shoulder.
Didn't this get settled once before? Only a handful of states explicitly require one to use a bike lane if present.
They pretty much all looked like shoulders, including the single one witha bike lane stencil in it. I didn't see any BL stencils in any of the others. I suppose you'll tell us that really they were all bike lanes, except the stencils for the others were out of the picture?
In what way? Can you expand on that thought?
I was simply wondering if it was a trick question. If by "bike lane" the OP meant a lateral area of the road specifically marked for bikes, B was the only one so marked. But that seemed too obvious. That made me wonder if maybe there were stencils or signs on the other routes that were not shown in the pictures, and the OP was trying to make a point about bike lanes being "created" by simply painting a stencil on existing shoulders that, without the stencil, would not be considered quality bike lanes by cyclists.
Good point.
A., D., E., F., H., I., J., K., L, N. and maybe C. and G., are not examples of well thought out and designed bike lanes, even if they are designated as such.
Maybe the point of the OP is to provide examples of bad bike lane design, or that the cyclist is responsible for knowing when to leave a bike lane when it is unsafe by design.
nope not a trick question. I tried to throw a mix of photos.
Didn't this get settled once before? Only a handful of states explicitly require one to use a bike lane if present.
If so, I missed the post. (On work travel 3 weeks per month for 2007, away from net, so I expect I may miss quite a bit). Please point to the post. It was my understanding that most states/cities with bike lanes required cyclist to use bike lanes (Canada does not). On the other hand, very few states/cities have mandatory side path (MUP/bike path) use laws.
About the only thing I can tell is width when you have past that one sign and stencil.
However width alone doesn’t mean it is a bike lane. I would like to see bike lanes painted with a blue and white strip.
Personally I think they have shoulders so they don’t have to repair that portion of the road. Here in the valley I see sub-standard bike lanes, parking allowed, door zone lanes, and really bad designs IE chokers. Not to mention bicycle lanes that last only a mile. As you can see most of these make a route.
Of course it changes literally right under your feet. I ride a road bike not a comfort bike with shocks. I want my lane as smooth as they give the travel lane. This is just a sample of the crazy network.
Maricopa Bicycle map PDF
http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/pdf/cms.resource/bike-map05-front.pdf
Now onto the answers you get two answers one 1. signs & stencils and 2 Maricopa bicycle map designation. .
A. Bike lane 1 yes 2 no
Comment Pretty crappy design the whole thing stinks as a gutter pan. This is a road 45mph Indian Reservation.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&z=15&ll=33.511451,-111.883521&spn=0.013812,0.042872&t=k&om=1
B Bike Lane 1 Yes 2 Yes
Comment People say this narrow will measure next time 35mph.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.509572,-111.912972&spn=0.001727,0.005359&t=k
C. No bike lane 1 no 2 yes
Comment Speed bumps slows everyone down 25mph.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.505479,-112.060633&spn=0.001727,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
D. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment Street sweepers can’t pick up what is under the car. Trash pickup is in this lane. 25mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.574819,-112.180506&spn=0.001725,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
E. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment I take the lane and move over if needed. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.372941,-112.066603&spn=0.001729,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
F. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment A shoulder is not needed here. 25mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=17&ll=33.519264,-111.995385&spn=0.003453,0.010718&t=k&iwloc=addr
G. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. Yes
Comment notice no sidewalk. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.49908,-111.934673&spn=0.000816,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
H. Bicycle lane 1. Yes 2 Yes
Comment they have parking allowed in BL further west. Also people put the rubbish and trees trimmings in the lane. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.495338,-111.935738&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
I Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. No
Comment it is a nice WCL 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=17&ll=33.508051,-111.935899&spn=0.003444,0.010718&t=k&iwloc=addr
J. Bicycle Lane 1. Yes 2. Yes
Comment 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.502131,-112.037641&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
K. Bicycle Lane 1. yes 2. Yes
Comment 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.5022,-111.988707&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
L. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2 No
Comment The split in the road is a frontage road. To make matters worse the label that portion a bicycle route. Note at the intersection you have to cross over a sidewalk loose your right of way. So you just stay on the main road. So many bad designs I can’t even begin. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.509652,-111.906095&spn=0.001722,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
M. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. No
Comment sure looks like one about a half a mile south is where this bicycle lane ends. It continues 6 miles north as a bicycle route. Awesome route. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.489936,-112.078343&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k
N. Bicycle lane 1. No 2. No
Comment sure is a wide lane. 45mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.442483,-111.948358&spn=0.000862,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
Responses
CommuterRun (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=26913) Maybe the point of the OP is to provide examples of bad bike lane design, or that the cyclist is responsible for knowing when to leave a bike lane when it is unsafe by design.
Absolutely well said I had a lot of reasons and this was a non-mention. I still ride in them on the line mostly. I want someone to pay for my medical bills whether the city or the hitter. The only one BL I really like on here is H as a whole route.
Regardless if bike lane or not, would I ride in the stretch shown, as a courtesy to faster moving vehicles or for my own advantage?
Considering everything sure.
sbhikes (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=18647) By the way, some of those places are really pretty.
Thanks I could use some green , but yes for a desert it is nice.
Brian Ratliff (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=2721) I should add that 'L' looks kind of weird with that split road there.
see comment horrible design here.
MadCat (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=721) Anywhere with that few potholes is perfect road cycling terrain to me.
In AZ roads last a long time. Potholes are rare. So I expect the same as a travel lane.
donnamb (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=53312) We use stencils like these (http://flickr.com/groups/95715266@N00/pool/).
Nice
chipcom (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=40363) At the risk of sounding like some VC zealot, I see bike lanes on all of those, because every lane is a bike lane! file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Ben/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif
Well good luck L is really bad just because it is a lane of something doesn’t mean you have oncoming or side traffic hitting you. Also note bushed or trees have thorns on those branches so if they are not cut back you can get a rude awaking.
Wogsterca (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=60429) How did I do?
Pretty good considering looking at picture. You all did great thank you for playing.
chipcom (http://www.bikeforums.net/member.php?u=40363) At the risk of sounding like some VC zealot, I see bike lanes on all of those, because every lane is a bike lane!
Well good luck L is really bad just because it is a lane of something doesn’t mean you have oncoming or side traffic hitting you. Also note bushed or trees have thorns on those branches so if they are not cut back you can get a rude awaking.
You missed the point...what's that lane to the left of the shoulder? Every lane is a bike lane. ;)
About the only thing I can tell is width when you have past that one sign and stencil.
However width alone doesn’t mean it is a bike lane. I would like to see bike lanes painted with a blue and white strip.
Personally I think they have shoulders so they don’t have to repair that portion of the road. Here in the valley I see sub-standard bike lanes, parking allowed, door zone lanes, and really bad designs IE chokers. Not to mention bicycle lanes that last only a mile. As you can see most of these make a route.
Of course it changes literally right under your feet. I ride a road bike not a comfort bike with shocks. I want my lane as smooth as they give the travel lane. This is just a sample of the crazy network.
Maricopa Bicycle map PDF
http://www.mag.maricopa.gov/pdf/cms.resource/bike-map05-front.pdf
Now onto the answers you get two answers one 1. signs & stencils and 2 Maricopa bicycle map designation. .
A. Bike lane 1 yes 2 no
Comment Pretty crappy design the whole thing stinks as a gutter pan. This is a road 45mph Indian Reservation.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&z=15&ll=33.511451,-111.883521&spn=0.013812,0.042872&t=k&om=1
B Bike Lane 1 Yes 2 Yes
Comment People say this narrow will measure next time 35mph.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.509572,-111.912972&spn=0.001727,0.005359&t=k
C. No bike lane 1 no 2 yes
Comment Speed bumps slows everyone down 25mph.
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.505479,-112.060633&spn=0.001727,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
D. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment Street sweepers can’t pick up what is under the car. Trash pickup is in this lane. 25mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.574819,-112.180506&spn=0.001725,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
E. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment I take the lane and move over if needed. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.372941,-112.066603&spn=0.001729,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
F. Bicycle Lane 1. no 2. no
Comment A shoulder is not needed here. 25mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=17&ll=33.519264,-111.995385&spn=0.003453,0.010718&t=k&iwloc=addr
G. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. Yes
Comment notice no sidewalk. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.49908,-111.934673&spn=0.000816,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
H. Bicycle lane 1. Yes 2 Yes
Comment they have parking allowed in BL further west. Also people put the rubbish and trees trimmings in the lane. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.495338,-111.935738&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
I Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. No
Comment it is a nice WCL 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=17&ll=33.508051,-111.935899&spn=0.003444,0.010718&t=k&iwloc=addr
J. Bicycle Lane 1. Yes 2. Yes
Comment 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.502131,-112.037641&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
K. Bicycle Lane 1. yes 2. Yes
Comment 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.5022,-111.988707&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
L. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2 No
Comment The split in the road is a frontage road. To make matters worse the label that portion a bicycle route. Note at the intersection you have to cross over a sidewalk loose your right of way. So you just stay on the main road. So many bad designs I can’t even begin. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=18&ll=33.509652,-111.906095&spn=0.001722,0.005359&t=k&iwloc=addr
M. Bicycle Lane 1. No 2. No
Comment sure looks like one about a half a mile south is where this bicycle lane ends. It continues 6 miles north as a bicycle route. Awesome route. 35mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.489936,-112.078343&spn=0.000861,0.00268&t=k
N. Bicycle lane 1. No 2. No
Comment sure is a wide lane. 45mph
http://www.google.com/maps?q=Scottsdale,+AZ&ie=UTF8&om=1&z=19&ll=33.442483,-111.948358&spn=0.000862,0.00268&t=k&iwloc=addr
Somehow I missed this thread until now. Oh well.
My comments:
You say "I" is a "nice WCL". But the amount of space between the truck and the edge stripe doesn't look wide enough for a bike. I think I would use a lane-controlling position, requiring same direction traffic to change lanes to pass, or at least slow down before I moved aside to let them pass.
You say for "K" that the speed limit is 35, but the sign says 30.
You missed the point...what's that lane to the left of the shoulder? Every lane is a bike lane. ;)
:beer:
Missing the point and getting things wrong why do I even try. FLKDJ it
I would ride in all of them. As for cars, I just bunny hope them using my god like legs.
chipcom,
It is my understanding that most states/cities with bike lanes require cyclist to use bike lanes (Canada does not) less the hand full of exceptions for debris,passing and obstructions. On the other hand, very few states/cities have mandatory side path (MUP/bike path) use laws.
Do you know of information to the contrary?
Thanks
chipcom,
It is my understanding that most states/cities with bike lanes require cyclist to use bike lanes (Canada does not) less the hand full of exceptions for debris,passing and obstructions. On the other hand, very few states/cities have mandatory side path (MUP/bike path) use laws.
Do you know of information to the contrary?
Thanks
Yes, we discussed this in another thread. Only 5 states have an explicit requirement to use a bike lane if one is present. The majority of states DO have a 'far right as practicable' law which some can interpret as requiring the use of a bike lane...but not all bike lanes are as far right as practicable. The 'far right' interpretation was the hot point of the debate, which is why I used the term 'explicit; here.
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