Classic & Vintage - New guy with Italian frame, needs IDing

Hi all, Id like to say thanks for letting me be a part of this forum! Ill try to be an asset to the community! That said, Im wondering if anyone could help ID this frame, I just picked it up at the local flea market last weekend, any help will be appreciated and Ill try to help you guys out when I can, here she is:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo018.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo017.jpg
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http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo014.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo013.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo009.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo008.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo007.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo005.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo004.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo003.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo002.jpg

Those who can help would likely need the serial number that's on the bottom bracket where the crank is. And list the components brand and type as well -- that may help if it is the original stuff. Some may have date codes on them like the brakes and derailleurs.

Thanks much, but I cant seem to find any serial#s? I looked on the BB housing, drops/rear stays, headtube, natha, zilch, zero, nothing!? Thats why I posted a lot of pics, I even had it down at my local bike shop and all he could tell me was it was, "a real nice early 80s Italian frame" he tried IDing it with no luck, it does have a few Campy parts, chainrings and headset, as well as a few other parts, Miallard and Galli, (front wheel and brakes) but the rear rim is a US of A replacement, as well as the rear derailer, the front derailer has no markings that I can find, hope that will help with the IDing process :)

Any markings on the rear brake bridge?

Just went over and looked carefully, not a mark? I think this is going to be a hard one?

Looks like a mid-80's Olmo to me. The BB shell cuts-outs and cable guide look sorta Pinarello but the seatstays and lug/lug-windows look more Olmo.

Very cool 1986 Super Record cranks!

BTW: It looks like there is decal burn on the seat tube. If you look closely in the right light, I'd bet you can make out the letters and thus solve your puzzle.....

Looks like an early 80's Olmo to me. The BB shell cuts-outs and cable guide look Pinarello but the seatstays and lug windows look more Olmo.

BTW: It looks like there is decal burn on the seat tube. If you look closely in the right light, I'd bet you can make out the letters and thus solve your puzzle.....

Yes, I can see something on the right side of the seat tube just below the lug too.

Yeah, Thats from some Oakley stickers the previous owner had all over it, its def been repainted, a very nice job too, so any "sticker burn has long been covered over :mad: Thanks for the comment m-theory =)

The lugs look like they have a heart shape cut out to them, perhaps this could help. I recall seeing heart shaped lugs on another bike but I don't recal which brand.

Is the BB shell 70mm or 68mm wide? 70mm would indicate and Italian BB. That doesn't necessarily mean that it is an Italian frame though.

The fork crown, brake bridge, cable guides and seat stay ends look like Cinelli items. The head tube lugs and seat tube cluster (72.2mm) appear to be top quality; perhaps Cinelli or Nurvex. The BB shell looks thin and is probably good quality. The rear dropouts look to be the short Campagnolo variety introduced around 1974.

The front forks appear to be more round than oval indicating the frame could be Reynolds tubing rather than Columbus which would be more common in an Italian frame.

The pump peg was added to the frame as bosses were added to the seat tube to allow for 2 biddons to be carried in the main triangle. There was no room for a frame pump to be carried in the usual position next to the seat tube. The pump was relocated under the top tube (but needed a peg to locate the pump so it wouldn't slip down.

I am not sure but I think 2 biddons were not common until the mid 80's.

The clue could be - who would put that BB with the other lugs? My guess is that it could be any local builder who had the components on hand when building the frame.

I would say that many frame builders would use the components pictured on your frame. I do think it is a top quality, mid to late 80's frame though and probably uses English threads.

Regardless, please take the presta/schrader adapters off of the valve stems. :)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo002.jpg

All of this info is a great help to me, thanks much to everyone :) I truly appreciate it, Im going to start building her up on Monday, I found a set of Campy (Delta?) brakes, should I switch out the orig brakes? Im not much into perfect resto, would like to Campy her out though! :D Ok, OK! I removed the presta/schrader adapters! Gosh! LOL!

All of this info is a great help to me, thanks much to everyone :) I truly appreciate it, Im going to start building her up on Monday, I found a set of Campy (Delta?) brakes, should I switch out the orig brakes? Im not much into perfect resto, would like to Campy her out though! :D Ok, OK! I removed the presta/schrader adapters! Gosh! LOL!The day you ditch the adapters is the day you will get a flat by having your frame pump shake loose and then running over it and trashing it with your rear tire. And there won't be another pump capable of filling a presta tube within several miles. Don't ask how I know this, but the adapter is now back in place. As a commuter, I really don't need to replay that scene.


The lugs look like they have a heart shape cut out to them, perhaps this could help. I recall seeing heart shaped lugs on another bike but I don't recal which brand. The bikes I recall for certain having heart-shaped lug windows were DeRosa. But I think those were distinctly more heart-shaped that what I'm seeing in the photos. Those hollow-ground seat stays look distinctive and familiar, though.

Nah, sell the Deltas for big bucks on eBay and use that cash to get all the other parts you need for the bike ;)

Are you planning on re-painting it? The paint looks a bit uneven to me, but it might just need a waxing. Very nice find. Dare I ask, how much?

The heart shaped lugs are found on lots of bikes, my Ciocc and Colnago Sport both have them.

edit: Yeah, leave the adapter on, I have one on all of my bikes, even my super duper high end bike because of the scenario that GCRyder described. Do however remove the kickstand ;)

Yeah, I make it a point to have at least one with me at all times when riding a bike equipped with the presta valves, Im new to the Italian bike thing so I thought maybe it was taboo or something! LOL! GC Ryder, my LBS guy told me the same thing about the heart shaped lug window too, he thought it was a DeRosa but, as you and he mentioned, the DeRosa has a more distinct heart shape, jet sanchEz, yup, the paint just needs a waxing is all, Im almost pos it was repainted, but it was done well, its got some nicks and scratches, but I can live with that :) its a very nice black with tiny metal flakes, its cool for me, the LBS guy also asked me to lose the kickstand, itll be there till Im done fixing her up though, then when Im done Ill toss it! LOL! Im going to tell you guys what I paid for her, but I want you to know that Im in no way bragging or showing off :D I found it at my local flea market for $30.00 :p yeah, I know. Heres the bike that got me into keeping a few presta adaptors around, I hope you guys dont mind that its not a road bike, I will remove it if anyone wants me to :(
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/P1251294-1.jpg

This bicycle has some aspects that remind me of the Italian made Nishiki. Nishiki used the that BB shell and I've seen them with the two, large, oval cutouts and similar, though not identical ,cable routing. Stay caps and rear brake bridge were same. Some had lug cutouts while others didn't. However, crowns were different.

Now these models were attributed to three Italian manufacturers; Colnago, Olmo and Viner. Some owners of these bicycles reported that they came in Olmo boxes. Very intriguing, given that M-Theory noted an Olmo resemblance.

A forum member who worked for the Nishiki distributor reported that some of these Nishiki models were made by Viner.

Now this is not to say that it a Nishiki, but it does resemble their Italian made models, so there is the possibility that it was made by one of their contractors. You may want to explore the psossibility of Olmo or Viner.

BTW, I concur with a mid or late 1980's timeframe.

I hope you guys dont mind that its not a road bike, I will remove it if anyone wants me to :(
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/P1251294-1.jpg


Your basement wall needs re-parging. What's that thing in front of it? :)

I haven't seen enough Viners or Olmos from this time period to say for certain, but a couple things stick out for me: the under-BB cable "guides" are a rather crude method (just a strip of sheet metal), seems like the style that would have been made in the early years of adoption of this style. Also the bridge between chainstays is one I've seen before and I associate it with "contract-built" frames. The brake bridge and forkcrown are IC Cinelli items, but the lugs look like long-point Prugnats with a standard window cutout, nothing distinctive to a particular builder, hundreds of builders had access to these parts, and outside of Italy, too. The forkblades look like Columbus profile to me, not 531, BUT (biggest BUT) the blades look tweaked, that sharp point in the curve is suspicious, have your LBS (or somebody experienced) check the fork for crashing...it might be a simple job to bend it back if it isn't creased. I'm going to stick my neck out and say it's EARLY to mid '80s, and I say measure the WIDTH of BB shell and/or look at the rusty BB cups for threading markings (like 1.37 x 24 or 36 X 24) to determine if it's an Italian or BSC BB...enjoy the bike!

Well, on second thought maybe not SO early '80s...but a couple more: there looks to be a "55" on picture 017 of the BB shell, that could be the size (check this) and there *may* be more numbers under the dirt. That really looks like a 70mm shell to me, I'm guessing it is Italian. What does the scrap of Columbus sticker on the lower seat tube say?

There is a 55 on the shell, but theres no numbers as there is just a minute amount of grease there but its just a film as I wiped it clean, theres a white dove and the letters "SLX" on the sticker, and the following letters and numbers, but they look as if there were more," rwf0rz" there is also a sticker on the bike that says,"paint by weiler" hope this helps.

Well, an SLX sticker would indicate no older than 1984.

the BB cut out look like a PALEETI and if i recall, they have hearts on the lugs
comments ?

Well, an SLX sticker would indicate no older than 1984.
T-Mar you are right, I stand corrected. It just looks like a mix of early and later styles from the '80s. Anyway, a Columbus SLX frame is nothing to sniff at...but DO check that fork, or tell me I'm hallucinating.

So - A mid to late 80's SLX frame. A lovely frame that can handle the workload. It's a little heavier than Reynolds 531 but this is my choice in frame materials.

Do you do the frame up or just clean it up? I would probably repaint it.

I would build it up with late a model Campy Super Record Gruppo (but I build everything up with Campy stuff).

I like to have a name or identity on the frame but this is such a hard choice. Do you go local or perhaps an Italian name on the frame or no name at all? This would bug me; perhaps for years. You have to be quite sure of your identity facts. I would be checking out frames with a similar cable guide as brazed to the bottom bracket.

Many Italian frame builders, circa mid to late 80's, used rear stay caps with their name cast into the cap (and in other places as well).

An interesting dilemma but I would be looking towards local builders.

Best of luck with the frame.

Im not to much into making them look "factory new" Right now I couldnt do it if I wanted too! LOL! so itll prob stay the same color, just wax her up, the forks I will have checked tomorrow although I think they look good? but will have them checked out just to be sure :) the ID of the frame is going to drive me totally batty! LOL! Things like that always do, again Id like to thank you all for the help, even though we couldnt get her IDed, we came darn close! Im just happy to know that its a decent frame and is worth the build :)

Those lugs and the fork look very similar to those on my '83 Caldaro. Although they're very Italian, they're not unique to any one builder.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/CalOso/August06030.jpg

Chromed stays and Campy dropouts. Looks similar to yours.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/CalOso/August06039.jpg

The Caldaro has etched seatstays and brake bridge. Is there anything like that on yours?

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/CalOso/August06033.jpg

Re shrader pump adapters:

Back in the "good old days", we always carried ours by finding an existing bolt on the bike to hold it. 2 good candidates on a NR bike are the toeclip screws inside the pedal cage, and the front derailler mounting bolt. Of course only for an emergency, we never filled our tires at a station.

OK, I removed the non chainring pedal arm and found the following on the BB, Gipiemme Sprint Italy b 36x24 f " Just as you see it, on the chain rings (both) it reads, Brev. Camagnolo, on the back of both pedal arms it reads, 170 Strada with the number 22 in a box, I think this means that just the chainrings are Campy? hope this helps us along ;)

Heres a pic almost the same as yours, I notice two difference, the absence of the etched seatstays and brake bridge, although they look almost identical, and the absence of the kinda heart shaped lug window on the bottom of your seat lug, my frame has the same chromed stays and dropouts but my drop outs do not read Campagnola? I cant tell from your pic but Im almost sure that yours do read Campagnola, and oh yeah! your bike looks sweet!
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/italianbikepic2.jpg

Wow, an SLX frame is a very nice find, you will love it. Update the wheels maybe and you are good to go.

OK, I removed the non chainring pedal arm and found the following on the BB, Gipiemme Sprint Italy b 36x24 f "
That's Italian!
Just as you see it, on the chain rings (both) it reads, Brev. Camagnolo, on the back of both pedal arms it reads, 170 Strada with the number 22 in a box, I think this means that just the chainrings are Campy? hope this helps us along ;)
Yep, that's a Campy crankset with a Gipiemme BB...I'd guess the dropouts are Gipiemme, too...G.P.M. (in Italian that's Gi-pi-emme ) were initials of 3 former Campagnolo employees that went into business for themselves, quality is *nearly* as good as Campy, and in some cases it IS cause they subcontracted parts to the big C. Still not eaxctly sure who made your frame, but it's Italian and it's a good one...clean it up and de-rust it.

Will do! Thanks! :)

Those lugs look like Corky's... Though if I recall correctly, the person who helped me identify Corky didn't mention him ever building with Columbus tubing... The lugs aren't terribly unusual, but it does make me wonder...

Is the BB Italian, or what else was it that made the shop say Italian?

You may have a bike built by an American custom builder... There were several of them in the mid-Atlantic area... I don't know their work, but when I asked my LBS if he had heard of Corky bicycles he mentioned that there were two Corkys that built nice bikes, and told me about several others in the region...

You could have a treasure rarer than anything with an easily recognizable name... hand built by an artisan. :D

!!!To late!!! Im so excited I think Ill cry! :cry: (dont worry, its a happy cry!) please read two post above yours for the BB info. =)

There's always a tiny chance that a US or Canadian builder might have made this using an Italian threaded BB shell, but I'd bet money on it coming from Italy.
...there is also a sticker on the bike that says,"paint by weiler" ...
That's one last clue to follow: if somebody has heard of a painter named Weiler (maybe in your locale) there's a chance he might have records, or just remember it...a lot of the big paint shops in California (like Cyclart) keep really complete records of all their jobs and are pretty friendly about looking it up. Maybe start another post asking for info about Weiler...

Check out this link:
http://cgi.ebay.de/Bianchi-Rennrad-Oldtimer-Rahmen-Gabel-Raeder-Bremsen_W0QQitemZ160082762822QQihZ006QQcategoryZ32509QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://i15.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/89/e0/f5f5_12.JPG
This is a Bianchi for sale on german ebay. It is a lot like your frame. So my guess is an italian frame from a mass producer as made for several bigger companies. This by no means says it is not worth anything. It is a classic italian frame in a good tradition and worth saving an riding...and that is what is was build for.

The Bianchi BB shell is similar, but not close enough. Note the spacing of the oval slots compared to the black frame, also the big difference that the cable guides are top mounted on the Bianchi. The chainstay bridges are identical, but again these pieces were common sourced items that hundreds of builders bought and used. Bianchi might have used a contract builder in Italy (prior to the Asian Bianchi enterprise) but from what I've seen only for the cheapest gaspipe bikes, and these look same as cheap Chiordas as well as some other brands. But Bianchi was/is one of the biggest fabricators in Italy and I'm sure if it's made in Italy and painted Celeste that it's built in their own factory...I've been proved wrong before, too :)

Yeah, that fork looks a little off, maybe pushed a bit rearward. Could be just the angle of the pic though.

Although they look somewhat alike, there are also some differences? but its like you said, its worth saving and building up :) check out the pic below, if it doesnt work just copy n paste or look at the first posting =)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y167/stumpyspic/ialianframetoo016.jpg