Road Cycling - Big or Little ring

I've been road riding (about 700 miles a year) for going on three years now and have rarely ever used the big ring. In fact I have used it twice.
On a 75 mile ride, I had been going at what I thought was a good clip (20 ish) when two very fast riders came up behind me. I asked if I could draft and they were agreeable to the idea. One of the riders suggested I pop it into the big ring. Well we were riding at an amazing (to me anyway) clip of 29 miles an hour. When it was my turn to pull I cranked it up about another mph. I was riding way out of my skill level. We rode this way for about 5 miles until we got to a rest stop (Organized ride) at which point I declined to continue on with them. I had to wait for a buddy I dropped and I also knew I could never hod the pace these guys set.
Well here's the question:
I pedal with a cadience of between 90 and 95 over all terrain, but how do I know when to go to the bigger ring. I know most riders suggest beginging the season in the small ring, but I want to know why the big ring is all about. Is it a speed tool, for long rides...
Help me out.
I have a Time Trial Race next week and want to get this squared away before the race.
:eek:

Riding efficiently and comfortably on the big ring takes years of training. I am the opposite. Unless I climb long steep hills (there aren't any around in NYC unless I ride in NJ), I rarely, if ever, use the small ring. If you can spin on the big ring, you will be fast, very fast and strong. If you want speed, ride with the big ring and pedal very fast. Spin the big ring, spin the big ring if you want to go fast. Sure, you can spin a lot faster on the small ring but you will never go anywhere as fast as the guy who spin slower on the big ring. :D

Ooh! Interesting question. I've left the middle ring all of once since I got my bike, and that was to go to the big ring to see what the hell would happen. It just got REALLY hard to pedal.

Is there a web site that discusses efficient gear usage, or is that something I have to learn with practice?

First, I have a tripple on the front. I use the ring that gives me the best chain line for the presure that I think I can spin or stand on my knees. If I know I have a long down hill or the wind at my back I hit the big ring. I do most of my riding in the middle ring but use the small and larger as well.

I have a Double up front. So is it fair to say I should ride the small ring most of the time and the big one on decents and when the wind is at my back?

Im a pretty new cyclist and I go into the big ring a couple of times on rides. The only reason though for me is that the chain starts bumping the front derailleur when I get to middle ring and cog 6 or7, of 9, on my cassette. The big ring to me just feels more comfortable and more effecient, probably in my mind but it feels good. Of course I only can stay in it for a little while, I normally end up turning around or making a turn, slowing down, and never quite get back up there.

Push the big ring.

I am just now venturing up onto the big ring. I have always read that you should stay in the small rings until you get 1000 miles in your legs. Of course I have also heard/read the statement that you should be living on the big ring from March on. I'm sure this advice applies to professional bike racers and not us average mortals :)

Think of the big ring as another tool. When you have that tailwind or are going down hill there's nothing like hitting the big ring and putting the hammer down.

There's no doubt you'll go faster riding in the big ring, but it is harder on your legs to turn the cranks. If you start to feel any pain in the knees drop back down before you mess something up.

Next time you're out on a ride put the chain on the 2nd ring from the top on the rear cog and then pop it up on the big ring. Right away your cadence will slow. Try spinning up to your normal cadence and see how it feels.

Zack

I think this may be an individual thing. I feel like a high torgue low rpm machine. When I first started riding I always used the large ring I'm trying to learn to spin, but it is a learning process.

I think you should try other rings to develope. So lately I've even tried the small ring on my 3 ringed mtb. I don't have a cadance counter on either bike but on the work out bike at the gym I hold 100 rpm after a min or two warm up and can get to 125 for short times so I'm increasing my range which I think sould be a goal.

Joe

i spin in the small ring, mostly 39x16, 39x15 and 39x14, while cruising. i like to ride with high cadence, around 100 rpms, so the small ring puts me in the middle of the cluster [11-23]. i'll shift up into the big ring for attacks, sprints and descents. on a ride today, i found my sweet spot cruising at 42 km/h in the big ring in the middle of the cluster.

If you visit http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears , the important thing is development or gear-inches, rather than using this or that ring. On a double, road rings have always been around 39-52. However, twenty years ago, the 5-speed freewheel was 14-21 or sometimes 14-23 (or 14-28 on a touring bike). Nowadays, the 9-speed cassette is... 11-23 to 12-25. IOW, we have bikes with higher gears rather than lower ones, as if the human race had evolved dramatically over the last 20 years.

Back to the original question. Why the big ring? A few reasons:
- in pack rides, people draughting each other can go faster;
- people who don't know how to ride effectively (i.e. many newbies at LBS and solo riders) crank their pedals at 40-50 rpm;
- some people like to believe that they are good when they have high gears.

Regards,

Originally posted by mgagnonlv
If you visit http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears , the important thing is development or gear-inches, rather than using this or that ring. On a double, road rings have always been around 39-52. However, twenty years ago, the 5-speed freewheel was 14-21 or sometimes 14-23 (or 14-28 on a touring bike). Nowadays, the 9-speed cassette is... 11-23 to 12-25. IOW, we have bikes with higher gears rather than lower ones, as if the human race had evolved dramatically over the last 20 years.

Back to the original question. Why the big ring? A few reasons:
- in pack rides, people draughting each other can go faster;
- people who don't know how to ride effectively (i.e. many newbies at LBS and solo riders) crank their pedals at 40-50 rpm;
- some people like to believe that they are good when they have high gears.

Regards,

You forgot racing.

it sounds as if some intervals in the big ring are in order. start with a slight to fair decline or a level ground with a hearty tailwind. do your interval then back off. if you are comfortably pedaling in the small ring going 90 rpm then i think that shocking your system into handling more than is in order provided that you have a solid base of milage behind you and your knees are in good working order.

i do my heavy speed days in the big ring and my recovery days in the small ring.

I am very pleasantly surprised my the sheer volume of good and free advice that has been offered to me about my dilemma. I find it extremely satisfying that there is a community of strangers bound together by a common love so willing to help each other.

This is why I love the sport. It is not about fitness, but rather about a feeling of belonging. Thanks everyone and I hope to see ya out there!

Any rider has a limitted power output. Training can help to increase it a bit, but on any day, it is pretty fixed. You use the gear the match your power output to you chosen cadence and the drag factors on a bike.
Simply putting the bike in a big gear and spinning fast will make you go faster,but that takes more power, which you dont have.
Riding on someone's wheel will reduce the aeodynamic drag a lot, so you can go faster for your power. That, as you found, is where you can use a bigger gear.
There is no reason for your big ring to be any particular size. racers use a 52t, but I use a 48t. Set your big ring to be a size which you find useful, otherwise it is just luggage.

Good thread,

I was considering posting to ask about different folks' gear preferences, but this beat me to it.

For flat riding I'm most commonly in the big chainring ring, which is 52T and in the 17 or 15 T rear sprocket. This translates to 83 or 94 inch gearing respectively (based on 700x23 tires). I have 13-14-15-17-19-21-23-26 sprocket cluster on the rear and a 52/39 up front) It just happens that this is most comfortable for 20-23mph speeds. I tend to run slightly slower on longer rides but always stay in the big ring except for steep climbs.

Cheers,

Ed

I mainly use the the big ring " 53 tooth" . The only times I use the small ring is for uphills and take offs after stops etc. I am more of a power rider than a spinner . If I am on the trainer I try to spin in the winter months to keep my legs in shape. I have even thought about going to a 56 tooth chain ring!

Originally posted by MichaelW
Any rider has a limitted power output. Training can help to increase it a bit, but on any day, it is pretty fixed. You use the gear the match your power output to you chosen cadence and the drag factors on a bike.
Simply putting the bike in a big gear and spinning fast will make you go faster,but that takes more power, which you dont have.
Riding on someone's wheel will reduce the aeodynamic drag a lot, so you can go faster for your power. That, as you found, is where you can use a bigger gear.
There is no reason for your big ring to be any particular size. racers use a 52t, but I use a 48t. Set your big ring to be a size which you find useful, otherwise it is just luggage.

That was a very sensible reply.

Advice to push the big ring to go faster is fine if you can manage it, but takes so much more effort. Some people see the gears on a bike as being like those in a car, i.e to get to the top gear asap. I think this puts people off, because unless you are a TdF racer, you won't be able to push a 52 for long on a small rear gear. The use of gears is to keep your cadence within comfortable limits relative to your speed. if you are spinning out, change up, if grinding, change down. The chainrings just give additional range, but there will be some duplication.

I use a 52-42 at the moment on my summer bike, with a 12 - 21 6 speed (I think) rear. Most of the time I'm on the big ring and the middle two cogs, but when warming up I stay on the inner ring and just flick up and down at the rear.

It's all down to gearing inches as Michael says. On my other bike (48-38-28 and 12-28 rear) I'm on the big ring most of the time except when climbing (I've never used the 28 front and indeed have locked it out) and on the 3rd smallest at rear when cruising. The gearing means on both combo's I'm running a low to mid 80 inch gear when commuting. I could easily do this using the inner ring and it would be difficult to tell the difference.

Little ring? What's that?

Grins,
Dave
who worships at the house of the big chainring

Go BIG or go HOME !! :D

just kidding it took me close to a year to get comfortable in the big ring for any real distance... it takes a lot of work.. but on the flats and d/h I can he 52 in the front, and usually in the middle 1/3 cogs outback... I only have a 6 speed.. but I can sustain a 22-24 mph with a decent cadence there

Jeff

Well this has helped some, but I now have to put the information into prctice.

I have a Time Trial Race tomorrow against about 11 co-workers (at TREK Bicycle-Widwest Distribution Ctr.). The 10 mile course is mostly rolling hills with two big hills; there are very few flats. This being the case I won't get to use that big ring too much as I don't think I could sustain the effort.

I ran the course two times this week and found that after topping the hills that I was too tired to hammer the big ring down the other side. Oh well I plan on taking 2nd place none the less.

I averaged 19.5 and 18.26 on my two trials without stressing myself too badly, but I will need to crank that up to 20.5 at the minimum to have any chance in the competition.

Oh well wish me luck...:beer:

Most modern road bikes are grossly overgeared for nonracers. Use a gear which permits you to maintain a cadence of at least 90 RPM; your knees will thank you. For the record, on my highest-geared bike (50-42 / 13-15-17-19-21-23-26), I use the smaller ring about 80 percent of the time. To reduce chain and cog wear, I do avoid loading the 42/13 and 42/15 combinations, and I avoid the 50/26 cross entirely.

I run my bike based more on Cadence than by speed. I keep it in the window of 90 to 95 RPM at nearly all times. I just go as fast as I can at any given time and gear the bike to match the cadience range I want to be in and still be able to ride comfortably.

Does that sound about right?
:)

Originally posted by SinGate
I run my bike based more on Cadence than by speed. I keep it in the window of 90 to 95 RPM at nearly all times. I just go as fast as I can at any given time and gear the bike to match the cadience range I want to be in and still be able to ride comfortably.

Does that sound about right?
:)

If you train that way, you never be able to ride faster with a bigger gear.

Originally posted by R600DuraAce
If you train that way, you never be able to ride faster with a bigger gear.

I try to stay on the small ring to save my energy... But I also make sure that everytime I ride, I get to speeds more than 45kph... At those speeds, I have to use the big ring..
I use my big ring to build up leg power, but not to the extent that I injure myself... Big ring or Small Ring, I keep it between 90-100rpm.

I use the big ring(higher gears) as a result of my speed.. not because I want to go faster.

Originally posted by R600DuraAce
If you train that way, you never be able to ride faster with a bigger gear.

Chris Carmichael and Lance Armstrong will be quite amazed to find this out. It runs counter to all of their practices and theories on training/riding.

SinGate,

I've raced two TTs so far this year and I did much better in my second one by using my larger chain ring. I have no scientific explanation other than for that short amount of time it was worth pushing my muscles to the point of implosion (I still had an acceptable cadence though). When you're in a race situation you've got a bit more adrenaline going to which helps you push a little harder than normal.

First race my mile times were aprox. 3.1min
Second race my mile times were aprox. 2.85min

Could have been that I had just gotten better within a month's time but I definately 'believe' the big chainring helped.

Good luck!

The bicycle and it's gearing is acting like a transformer matching your output to the load conditions. If you are better with large chain ring - or more accurately with some gear ratio obtained using the large ring then that one is the best one for you in that race or hill or whatever.

Joe

Originally posted by chewa
It's all down to gearing inches as Michael says

Please don't forget crankarm length. Going to a longer crank arm reduces the development per unit of arc, which is like going to a shorter gear.

I think we are forgetting about power. You can do 12mph at 100rpm or 30 mph at 100rpm. The difference is the power applied.

Most of us are most efficient between 90-110 rpm. So you should train >90 rpm, wether you are going hard or easy.

If you are just starting to spin you may not think you can go as fast as if you were pushing a big gear. If you continue to spin in your training, I guarantee you will get faster and go farther than pushing big gears all the time.

I have a buddy that i ride with that likes to tromp on the big ring and i will spin in the middle and i tend to wear him out on hills and inclines but on flats he can fly i think its what u like and ur riding style

On fast rides I start out spinning the small ring, then about 10 miles into the ride I push the large ring as hard as I can, as my legs fatigue I switch back to spinning the small ring when I fatigue from spinning at a higher rate I push the large ring and so on and so forth, but I try to keep a constant speed between 20 and 23 mph on the flats no matter which ring I am in. I am new at this (road riding) so I have no idea weather or not this an effective method. I also try not to cross the chain, great thread

Originally posted by captsven
I think we are forgetting about power. You can do 12mph at 100rpm or 30 mph at 100rpm. The difference is the power applied.

Most of us are most efficient between 90-110 rpm. So you should train >90 rpm, wether you are going hard or easy.

If you are just starting to spin you may not think you can go as fast as if you were pushing a big gear. If you continue to spin in your training, I guarantee you will get faster and go farther than pushing big gears all the time.

This is right on the money. Power is proportional to torque and rpm. Torque is proportional to arm length, in this case the crank arm, and force applied to the pressure (and indirectly to your knee). If you want to go faster you need more power, and the speed will not be affected by which of the variables you alter. increase any one of the three, rpm, pedal force or crankarm length by 21% and your speed will increase by 10%, in still air. increasing rpm or crank length will require more output from your body, but will not cause the damage to your knees that increasing the force on the pedal might.

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
Chris Carmichael and Lance Armstrong will be quite amazed to find this out. It runs counter to all of their practices and theories on training/riding.

Can anyone explane this comment more to me?

BTW I did win my Time Trial race by 7 seconds using a combination of big and little rings. I used the big ring on all the flats and then switched to the small ring for the hills. It worked fairly well, but I have a long way to go to learn what is really the best way to ride.

I would agree that some intervals are likely in order for me. I need to train more rather than just go out and try to ride fast.
:D

i got back from my ride today and i made a point to try to stay spinning in the big ring more of course i had to drop down on the hills but as soon as i got back up to spinning i would kick it back up i dont think ive seen 25-27 that much when i wasnt going down a hill, best of all i feel great

Originally posted by captsven
I think we are forgetting about power. You can do 12mph at 100rpm or 30 mph at 100rpm. The difference is the power applied.

Most of us are most efficient between 90-110 rpm. So you should train >90 rpm, wether you are going hard or easy.

If you are just starting to spin you may not think you can go as fast as if you were pushing a big gear. If you continue to spin in your training, I guarantee you will get faster and go farther than pushing big gears all the time.

Exactly... Over time we develop our own style, and with it more muscle power and endurance(hopefully)...

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
Chris Carmichael and Lance Armstrong will be quite amazed to find this out. It runs counter to all of their practices and theories on training/riding.

No, I followe Joe Friel. Yes, I race. Yes, I spent about 60 miles on a century spinning on the big ring. 53 x 18. 90% effort LTHR. Average speed was 19 mph with HEADWIND. The rest of the miles I was recovering and forced to spin on the small ring with HEADWIND. There you go, butt bouncing spinner who couldn't produce any power at all.

Originally posted by captsven
I think we are forgetting about power. You can do 12mph at 100rpm or 30 mph at 100rpm. The difference is the power applied.

Most of us are most efficient between 90-110 rpm. So you should train >90 rpm, wether you are going hard or easy.

If you are just starting to spin you may not think you can go as fast as if you were pushing a big gear. If you continue to spin in your training, I guarantee you will get faster and go farther than pushing big gears all the time.

No, you just become efficient with spinning at said gear and at said force. You don't stress the muscle enough to produce the power needed to ride on bigger gear. To spin on the big gear, you ride on the big gear. Same as to ride faster on hills, you ride on hills.

Everyone has an ideal cadence and power output that is most efficient for *them*, not necessarily everyone else.

If you are pushing hard and having trouble keeping a good cadence, then shift down. If you are spinning fast and feel like you aren't pushing enough, shift up. Don't concern yourself with the ring, just the resistance you are comfortable with.

What I described above is your "comfort zone" - a force and leg speed that will be the most efficient without stressing your body. Training is all about leaving this comfort zone, pushing your body to either put out more force, spin faster, or go longer than usual. Over time your comfort zone will change so that you're able to spin faster with a greater force.

The bottom line: just ride and use common sense, don't concern yourself with what ring you are in. There are too many variables (wind, hills, your energy level, drafting, etc.) to worry about, just ride. :-)

Mike

I have two adjustable cups on my BB that lets me line the chain up with whatever cog I intend to use the most. Right now I chose 42/16 (70.8 gear inches with 700c.) I usually leave it in this one gear only for training for about 2 months or so every spring. The area is hilly, and the wind selects my workout for that particular day. Later on I will choose another gear combo, and may select the big ring for a period. At the end of the season, I start shifting, and getting ready for some casual races.

One thing I think has not been mentioned here is that there seems to be a different feel through the pedals and maybe the frame, in running the big ring. Has anybody noticed this? If you select a gear in the big ring, and then come close to matching it in the small ring and a smaller cog, the feel is very different, and this has nothing to do with gear inches per se. Any comments?

This is an interesting discussion and it confirms what I've observed on my own. Especially that I am a big ring junkie. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but sometimes I get lazy and I'll just mash the pedals rather than develop good spinning technique.

Good thread.

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
Chris Carmichael and Lance Armstrong will be quite amazed to find this out. It runs counter to all of their practices and theories on training/riding.

Lance trains early in the season at high cadence to build aerobic base. Later, in training, Lance DOES push higher gears at lower cadence to build strength. The details are on his website.

Originally posted by ChezJfrey
Lance trains early in the season at high cadence to build aerobic base. Later, in training, Lance DOES push higher gears at lower cadence to build strength. The details are on his website.


Hehehhehehe.......someone thinks that they are Lance Armstrong just because they spin. :p BTW, how do you ride at 28 mph+ using your small gear anyway. Yeah, that's your typical average speed of a single stage of the Tour.

Originally posted by R600DuraAce
Hehehhehehe.......someone thinks that they are Lance Armstrong just because they spin. :p BTW, how do you ride at 28 mph+ using your small gear anyway. Yeah, that's your typical average speed of a single stage of the Tour.

Oh come on we all know that the Tour De France is just another one of those "Reality Shows" no one can really ride that fast... Wink Wink.;)

I would also suggest hitting the gym and doing a lot of leg exercises, such as squats and leg presses.

This will help a lot with power!

Originally posted by SinGate
Oh come on we all know that the Tour De France is just another one of those "Reality Shows" no one can really ride that fast... Wink Wink.;)

This issue cracks me up everytime. It reminds me dropping this guy on a small ring and doing the Armstrong-Ullrich look on me in my local park. He was in the front and I was just hanging in the back. There is this 5% grade quarter of a mile "incline." Me? I chewed him up doing 20 mph up using 53 x 17 gear. :p He thought his Armstong style could hang on to me. He had to change to the big ring to hang on to me in the middle of the climb. He cracked once we crested.

Hehehhehehe.......someone thinks that they are Lance Armstrong just because they spin. BTW, how do you ride at 28 mph+ using your small gear anyway. Yeah, that's your typical average speed of a single stage of the Tour.

To put things in context, most of the riding in the TDF is done in the peleton, and not solo. That is what the worker ants are for. The 28 mph average speed is a little easier to contemplate considering that the hour solo record still stands around 50 kph. And that is only one hour of one day, not evey hour of 22 or so riding days. Any improvements on that time are in seconds and fractions of seconds.

Originally posted by Barnaby
To put things in context, most of the riding in the TDF is done in the peleton, and not solo. That is what the worker ants are for. The 28 mph average speed is a little easier to contemplate considering that the hour solo record still stands around 50 kph. And that is only one hour of one day, not evey hour of 22 or so riding days. Any improvements on that time are in seconds and fractions of seconds.

What are you talking about???? :confused: :confused: Average speed of a stage. Not an hour, man. Also, that's only the average speed. During a chase or an attack, you are looking at 30+ mph. I see you butt bouncing spinner riding at 28 mph on your small ring. What? In a pack is easier??? Are you nut??? Sure, my first race average speed was 25 mph. Top speed was 37 mph. Yet, the pack was doing 27 mph most of the time and I was on the big ring man, 53 x 15. Even on a 5% grade climb EVERYONE was on the big ring, 20 mph.

Originally posted by R600DuraAce
What are you talking about???? :confused: :confused: Average speed of a stage. Not an hour, man. Also, that's only the average speed. During a chase or an attack, you are looking at 30+ mph. I see you butt bouncing spinner riding at 28 mph on your small ring. What? In a pack is easier??? Are you nut??? Sure, my first race average speed was 25 mph. Top speed was 37 mph. Yet, the pack was doing 27 mph most of the time and I was on the big ring man, 53 x 15. Even on a 5% grade climb EVERYONE was on the big ring, 20 mph.

I think you may have misread Barnaby's post. My reading of it is that he was talking about the average per stage, and that it's easier to maintain a high average when in the peloton. I don't think he meant doing that on the small ring. Simply that on the large ring in a pack would be easier.

It doesn't matter what ring you are on for a given speed. what matters is sustainable cadence.

I don't know why people are fixated on being on big ring or little ring.

I'll ride with my buddy me in big ring and middle rear. Him on middle ring and outside rear, cadences and speed much the same. personal preference.

Of course in a race, the big ring is used more because speeds are higher, and the athletes are strong enough to sustain a high cadence on the big ring at high speed.

I just read in paper about Giro Italia, yeasterdays stage was a mountain one. There was a mountain with 20 degrees angle, and at some moments it was 27 degrees. All teams were using 39/28 front rings, and cassettes with 27 teeths (lowest gear) - wow!

nearly like on mtb! The speed was 10km per hour - sometimes it was faster to run. A tough mountain.

Going down 53 teeth might have been not enough - just kidding - there were also lots of turns....