Advocacy & Safety - Clothing - cyclists vs motorcyclists

How come cyclists usually wear brightly coloured clothing to help them stand out so motorists and other people can see them but motorcyclists generally don't? I know MC are faster and keep up with the traffic and cyclists are generally slower but car drivers are still running into them so why not wear brighter clothing?

Uh-oh !

HelmetHead will need to chime in to this one.....

My theory is that motorcyclists spend more time IN traffic, slowing and stopping WITH traffic... That may help to explain why they are caught in rear-end collisions more than cyclists...

I personally whitnessed a double rear-end collision where the 2nd car slammed into the back of a harley with a girly passenger and NO helmets ! Lucky for them the driver kept the fartley under control and managed to pull over to the sidewalk where the girl limped off of the bike grabbing her lower leg ...

The saddlebags exploded from the back of the hardley into pieces !! I swear I saw lots of tools fall out of it (that is why hardleys have those saddle bags, to store tools to fix them all the time)...

LOL

How come cyclists usually wear brightly coloured clothing to help them stand out so motorists and other people can see them but motorcyclists generally don't? I know MC are faster and keep up with the traffic and cyclists are generally slower but car drivers are still running into them so why not wear brighter clothing?
I've wondered this too.

Certainly motorcyclists often talk about not being noticed, but I suspect this actually happens much more rarely than it does for bicyclists, because motorcyclists are usually riding where others are most likely to be paying attention, and bicyclists are often riding where others are much less likely to be paying attention.

So I think the not being noticed is much more about where we are riding rather than about what we are wearing.

I know that I've been less concerned about bright clothing while bicycling since I've learned the importance and relevance of riding where motorists are paying most of their attention.

I have an all-black thermal cycling jacket that in the past I would never wear without a colorful and/or reflective vest over it, but now I do. I'm not any less visible, by any significant degree, than a motorcyclist in a black leather jacket.

It would be tough to look cool in a reflective yellow pleather jacket.

Look at sport bike helmets and jackets sometime. While not neon like alot of cycling clothing, it is flashy with lots of reds, yellows, greens (Kawasaki green) etc... Also, many manufacturers use reflective piping and stripes these days.

Consider this - the military requires one to wear a reflective vest when riding a motorcycle. In my day it was only required when on-base or in uniform, but apparently it's required at all times now, in uniform or out.

IMO, bright clothing on a motorcycle is probably a good thing from an increased visibility standpoint, but like most things in our society, what is culturally acceptable and 'fits in' is more important. Ironic how riding a motorcycle is the ultimate badge of freedom, independence and even rebellion, yet we worry about looking like everyone else.

As a motorcyclist I'll answer this for you, from my perspective.

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.
2.) Leathers are like armor. Everything I wear while on my bike (motorbike) is there to protect me in the case of going down. It is almost impossible to find leathers in any color other than black. because
2.a.) Bright colors on a bike are, as some people would say, gay* as ****
2.b.) Bikes have just as much lighting as cars, you don't see people in cars painting them hi-vis green
2.c.) It's a marketing ploy: bikers are tough and tough guys wear black
3.) No need to go further than this as this explains probably %99.999999 of us out there

* gay as in fluff, not homosexual. so don't give me any "you're homophobic" crap. this is the english language and words DO have multiple meanings. clean up your own back yard before you come knocking on my door

Look at sport bike helmets and jackets sometime. While not neon like alot of cycling clothing, it is flashy with lots of reds, yellows, greens (Kawasaki green) etc... Also, many manufacturers use reflective piping and stripes these days.

This is just a marketing ploy to attract to young kids.
The same way you see some old man having his late midlife crisis buy a yellow vette with a yellow vette branded jacket and yellow vette branded hat.
Or seeins somene riding a Trek with a full on Trek kit but has no aspirations to race.
They just want to pay good money to become a moving bilboard.
marketing is a genius thing, and the world is not lacking fools to target

This is just a marketing ploy to attract to young kids.
The same way you see some old man having his late midlife crisis buy a yellow vette with a yellow vette branded jacket and yellow vette branded hat.
Or seeins somene riding a Trek with a full on Trek kit but has no aspirations to race.
They just want to pay good money to become a moving bilboard.
marketing is a genius thing, and the world is not lacking fools to target

I see you resisted the urge, as I did, to say some other things about 'sport bikes'. :D

But seriously, if we are as tough as we think we are, we'd have no problem hitting the road wearing pink leathers and with sparkly streamers on the bars, if it suited us. A lot of it really is trying to look the part like we think it's supposed to look. I think we're tough enough to admit it. :beer:

How come cyclists usually wear brightly coloured clothing to help them stand out so motorists and other people can see them but motorcyclists generally don't? I know MC are faster and keep up with the traffic and cyclists are generally slower but car drivers are still running into them so why not wear brighter clothing?

Perhaps you have not noticed the motorcyclists wearing the orange vests.
http://www.highvizshop.co.uk/assets/images/autogen/a_highvizvest0204.jpg

Heck one company has even invented "air bag vests" that inflate to reduce injuries in a fall.

Over all though the daylight headlights and the ability to keep up with and pass traffic might give motorcyclists a few advantages that cyclists don't have... so we have to go with passive systems... such as bright clothing.

One should always be colour coordinated with their MC. It's a rule. My GPZ1100 is red and black so I wear red and black. Other cyclists will not laugh at you if you are not colour coordinated with your bike but motorcyclists will.

I've noticed more and more motorcyclists wearing the high-vis yellow bicycle jackets, high-vis yellow construction worker vest, and don't forget that motorcycle gear is often highly reflective, brightly colored, and then the motorcycle itself has daytime running lights. I've even seen motorcycles with bike blinkies, too.

[QUOTE=CrosseyedCrickt]As a motorcyclist I'll answer this for you, from my perspective.

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.

They also make lives miserable for pedestrians and residents of the roads you ride on. Your vehicle should be no louder than any other vehicle of comparable size, weight, and horsepower.


2.) Leathers are like armor. Everything I wear while on my bike (motorbike) is there to protect me in the case of going down. It is almost impossible to find leathers in any color other than black. because
2.a.) Bright colors on a bike are, as some people would say, gay* as ****


Definitely true and there is no need to apologize in your footnote either. Whether you like gays or not is your own business and an opinion you are perfectly free to express in any way you see fit. If my fellow flamers give ya a hard time tell 'em to eat a snickers bar and get over the super bowl.



2.b.) Bikes have just as much lighting as cars, you don't see people in cars painting them hi-vis green....
2.c.) It's a marketing ploy: bikers are tough and tough guys wear black


A study by the NHL years ago showed that wearing black made guys alot more aggressive and intimidating. In our suck-your-soymilk world, thats nice for a change. I don't know what being tough will do if you are flying thru the air at 60 mph after an accident....but hey...whatever boats your float.

roughstuff

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.

Doesn't loud pipes also limit what you can hear around you? That aspect certainly can't make you safer.

Other cyclists will not laugh at you if you are not colour coordinated with your bike but motorcyclists will.

You're eroding the rationale for much of my wardrobe here...

A study by the NHL years ago showed that wearing black made guys alot more aggressive and intimidating. In our suck-your-soymilk world, thats nice for a change. I don't know what being tough will do if you are flying thru the air at 60 mph after an accident....but hey...whatever boats your float.

roughstuff

There was also a recent study somehow connected to the Japanese that an aggressive look of a motorcycle means it will be noticed. I cannot find the report, (google "aggressive motorcycle" and all sorts of stuff comes up) but the conclusion was that if the front of the motorcycle coming at a motorist was arranged in a manner to look like an aggressive face, the motorcycle would be noticed more often.

It makes sense if you consider that as babies we recognize faces almost right away, so it is somewhat built into our brains, and an aggressive face might stand out that much more.

Page 21 of the MSF's Motorcycle Operator Manual (http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/MOM_Rev_1206_06.pdf) recommends wearing bright clothing including vests and bright helmets

Al

I live in a town where there are basically only old people and college students. The only motorcycles I see around here have postures like TT bikes, and would probably glow in the dark they're so colorful.

Back in Allen (home of the largest Harley dealership in the country), things were different. But those people were upper-middle-class, riding for fun not transportation. They were almost always in groups.

I see high-viz vests on motorcyclists on the rise in the rainy season here in the Northwest. Savvy riders choose high-viz for safety. these are not military riders, but may have picked up the idea while riding to/from base or just from common sense.

just riding a motorcycle or bicycle on the road doesn't guarantee anything, as a neophyte traffic rider tries to insinuate in his posts here in A&S.

But, if you drive your RV like a bicycle, you're likely to get noticed as you powerweave the Winnebago.....

Doesn't loud pipes also limit what you can hear around you? That aspect certainly can't make you safer.

Being able to hear on a motorcycle is not nearly as important as it is on a bicycle.
I have plenty enough mirrors on my Shovelhead to see all around me without having to move my neck.
Now before anyone starts chiming in, stop before you start unless you ride a motorcycle, and I'm not meaning "I ride my cousins R1 when I go and visit hime every year". If you are not familiar and comfortable with being on a motorcycle in traffic then you can not possibly offer anything but armchair speculation on the subject.... anyhow, back to AlmostTricks question.
Yes, having the loud pipes does limit what I can hear. But I have not had that become an issue in the 20 years I have been riding a bike, not even once.
In TWO, (Two Wheels Only) a motorcycle magazine, they had statistics on motorcycle accidents with some pretty interesting numbers. I cannot recall them verbatim but here are some of the ones that stuck in my head, all numbers are approximate.
80% of motorcycle accidents resulted in injury or death
60% of them were intoxicated
75% of them were under the age of 30
75% were on sport bikes
10% were speeds less than 35mph

So from those numbers, which is the best of my memory, most accidents involving motorcycles are the young people on crotchrockets usually going faster than they should and drinking. If they are fortunate enough to live past their stupidity phase then they may one day upgrade to the real bikes for men, which have much less occurances of accidents assuming the riders stay sober.

Because motorcycles are required by law to have decent headlights and taillights, and many cyclists use these day and night to increase visibility?

Paul

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.

I will disagree with you on this one as it only helps people behind you see you. If you are loud enough to be heard in front then you are putting your own hearing in jeopardy and others. It is this kind of thinking that has cities like Cave Creek instituting ordinances limiting motorcycle decibals in their communities. I can usually see police lights far before I can hear their sirens.

As a former MSF Instructor, Ducati rider and 30+ yr. motorcyclist I'd say most motorcycles are bigger (more obvious) than bicycles, lots are pretty bright in color and all newer ones run headlights day or night. In addition, many of us wear bright, mutlti-colored helmets and/or clothing. Now, why don't bicyclists wear leathers? :)

Drivers are looking for other cars, not for two-wheeled exceptions.

The safest thing, imho, a motorcyclist can do is to get a wider heads-on profile. Other than riding responsibly, of course!

Most motorcyclists wear leather jackets, and leather jackets are almost always black.
That being said, military personnel are required to wear a reflective vest when riding on base. Military bases typically have a 12,000 foot runway, so the road that parallels it is over two miles long.
When I was in the Navy, I brought my Kevlar faired HPV on base, and it was so darned camoflaged, it was declared "invisible" , even though I ran 12 volt lights. I had to wear a reflective vest while riding it on base.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q119/hotbike/Type5MilitaryPoliceBike.jpg
I would say that black leather jackets go with the Harley ,
and colored leathers go with the Japanese bikes, in general.
A friend of mine has a 2002 Suzuki Hyabusa and he works for the DPW (Department of Public Works).
He wears his county issued reflective vest while riding, and he insists that the color of the reflective tape is "Strong Yellow-Green", and NOT lime green. A new law in New York declares silver reflective tape "for road-cones only" he says.

I will disagree with you on this one as it only helps people behind you see you. If you are loud enough to be heard in front then you are putting your own hearing in jeopardy and others. It is this kind of thinking that has cities like Cave Creek instituting ordinances limiting motorcycle decibals in their communities. I can usually see police lights far before I can hear their sirens.

I'll agree that I'm putting my own hearing in jeopardy.
But how can you disagree that being loud gets one noticed?
We're not talking about active lighting versus loudness, we're talking about why most motorcyclists don't dress like cyclists (bright clothing).

:)

http://www.aerostich.com/product_image.php?imageid=463

I'll agree that I'm putting my own hearing in jeopardy.
But how can you disagree that being loud gets one noticed?
We're not talking about active lighting versus loudness, we're talking about why most motorcyclists don't dress like cyclists (bright clothing).

First, most cars now days are designed to eliminate all external noise so the engineers are against you on that one. Second, once you are at a certain volume directional hearing is compromised in a car. Pedestrians will be able to zoom right in on you though. Of course, we haven't even mentioned the first thing I was warned about when learning how to ride a motorcycle- never tick off a car as they are a lot bigger than you. Anyway, loud pipes exclude all other audio signals which might also be important as well. Seems like a copout to me for people who like loud bikes.

Doesn't loud pipes also limit what you can hear around you? That aspect certainly can't make you safer.


I am pretty sure at 65 mph with an insulated full face, shielded, metal helmet you can't hear anything anyway.

...

So I think the not being noticed is much more about where we are riding rather than about what we are wearing.

I know that I've been less concerned about bright clothing while bicycling since I've learned the importance and relevance of riding where motorists are paying most of their attention.

...Pure hogwash, as usual.

The engineering studies prove fluorescent colors and reflective material work.

Your armchair studies prove squat.

Pure hogwash, as usual.

The engineering studies prove fluorescent colors and reflective material work.

Your armchair studies prove squat.


I suggest he gets out of that armchair and does some night time riding in the middle of the street in some all black clothing and see how "noticed" he gets.

Motor cycles being just bigger and their lighting sysytems are brighter. Bikes less so. But, often motorcyclists do wear neon reflective fests. Don't leather jackets just come in black.

Motor cycles being just bigger and their lighting sysytems are brighter. Bikes less so. But, often motorcyclists do wear neon reflective fests. Don't leather jackets just come in black.

Some of the protective jackets for sport cycles come in white and other colors. It's mostly the Harley crowd that is exclusively black.

Some of the protective jackets for sport cycles come in white and other colors. It's mostly the Harley crowd that is exclusively black.

There is an obvious practical side to black... it doesn't show dirt as easily either. Why do bike shorts come mostly in black?

There is an obvious practical side to black... it doesn't show dirt as easily either. Why do bike shorts come mostly in black?


They are less um, revealing...... Plus in the olden days of black leather saddles the dye would come off onto one's shorts.

So I think the not being noticed is much more about where we are riding rather than about what we are wearing.

I know that I've been less concerned about bright clothing while bicycling since I've learned the importance and relevance of riding where motorists are paying most of their attention.



Pure hogwash, as usual.

The engineering studies prove fluorescent colors and reflective material work.

Your armchair studies prove squat.

helemt heads a neophyte pushing his armchair anti-cycling agenda.... LESS concerned about high visibility cycling clothing? the guy OBVIOUSLY doesn't ride much, that is the exact inverse learning curve of actual riders that ride daily in traffic.

most dedicated commuters are VERY concerned about high vis clothing. his spiel just shows his armchair skills....

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.


That is the biggest crock of B--- S--- out there. :eek: The only thing loud pipes is saving is your ego. Every single study done on motorcycle safety has debunked the myth.

As far as bright clothing goes, you either spend huge dollars for a gaudy set of leathers that make you look like a moving billboard, or you wear black. There just aren't a lot of colors available in tasteful clothing.

Michael

I see high-viz vests on motorcyclists on the rise in the rainy season here in the Northwest. Savvy riders choose high-viz for safety. these are not military riders, but may have picked up the idea while riding to/from base or just from common sense.

I noticed the same thing when I moved here from Ohio. Back in the midwest, nobody wore anything hi-viz. It was either college-aged kids on overpowered (for their skill level) sport bikes; no helmets because that would be unfashionable... or outlaw biker wannabes cruising their street-rods w/o leathers or a helmet.
I got to Seattle, and saw a lot of people that use their motorcycles as year 'round transport, not just a summer show-off vehicle. Armoured all-weather touring suits and reflective vests in through the rainy winter commutes seem to be the standard up here.

1.) Loud pipes save lives. My pipes are loud enough that anyone in a vehicle within earshot will know I'm there.

I know some motorcyclists like to believe that, but most of the noise (and it is NOISE POLLUTION) seems to radiate back.

I see plenty of motorbikers during the commute wearing hi-viz reflective vests and jackets. I also see plenty of commuting cyclists wearing normal clothing without the flourescent yellow jackets. In California, though, it does seem most bike commuters go with the high viz.

And back to the whole non-conformist "bad boy" image thing: Harley owners will give you all kinds of grief if you keep factory pipes on your bike. It's not about safety, it's about conformity with the rest of the herd. Moo.

Old joke: H.D. is short for "hundred dollar."

RFM

There just aren't a lot of colors available in tasteful clothing.

That doesn't seem to stop this guy:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/96/236206103_847b74e582_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/fixedgear/236206103/)

The engineering studies prove fluorescent colors and reflective material work.

*ahem* This meta-analysis (http://www.hbns.org/getDocument.cfm?documentID=1389&cid=1110954885&ei=HtZPRdDZDM-SaaPxkfcJ) concludes that while "visibility aids" make pedestrians and cyclists more conspicuous, it's unknown if they actually result in fewer injuries and deaths.

“... We know the time it took for a driver to distinguish a person in the roadway, but what we don’t know is if that was enough time for them to stop and avoid a collision,” said [lead reviewer Irene Kwan].

How come cyclists usually wear brightly coloured clothing to help them stand out so motorists and other people can see them but motorcyclists generally don't? I know MC are faster and keep up with the traffic and cyclists are generally slower but car drivers are still running into them so why not wear brighter clothing?

First off, both sets of attire are more than just clothing. They are 'uniforms' that identify the wearer as being a member of a certain sect of society.

And within each sect are sub-sects which may or may not conform to all of the 'uniform'. Take for instance, owners of Harley Davidson motorcycles: The uniform is black leather. In states without helmet laws, many are helmetless. Contrast that with riders of Japanese sport bikes: The uniform is often team-colored one-piece racing leathers. You also have owners of large Japanese touring motorcycles who don't wear team colored racing leathers but might wear a more conservative brown leather motorcycle jacket. These riders don't wish to be identified with either the Harley rider or the sport motorcycle rider. A casual motorcyclist with a lower-powered mid-sized motorcycle might wear blue jeans and a jacket.

Same with bicyclist. You have racers in full team kits, tourists in a variety of off-the shelf cycling wear, commuters with some cycling-specific clothing and many in street cloths.

It's all about which clique you identify with.

That is the biggest crock of B--- S--- out there. :eek: The only thing loud pipes is saving is your ego. Every single study done on motorcycle safety has debunked the myth.

As far as bright clothing goes, you either spend huge dollars for a gaudy set of leathers that make you look like a moving billboard, or you wear black. There just aren't a lot of colors available in tasteful clothing.

Michael

For one, we are not talking about noise pollution or ego stroking.
If you want to take that route then let's argue that tight cycling clothing is just to show off the goods and does not provide any benefit. blah blah blah
it's a two way street there
And as far as these studies and myths. Who performed them and who paid to have them performed? And how much time have these people spent in traffic on a motorcycle? How much time have you spent in traffic on a motorcycle?
My comments were from my experienes and I stated so before even making the comments so how in the hell do you know what I have gone thru or how loud my pipes are? I have been sitting at lights where the teenage kid next to me had a stereo that drowned out my pipes... more than once.

jump on the bandwagon fellah, but don't comment unless you have been there

I know some motorcyclists like to believe that, but most of the noise (and it is NOISE POLLUTION) seems to radiate back.

I see plenty of motorbikers during the commute wearing hi-viz reflective vests and jackets. I also see plenty of commuting cyclists wearing normal clothing without the flourescent yellow jackets. In California, though, it does seem most bike commuters go with the high viz.

And back to the whole non-conformist "bad boy" image thing: Harley owners will give you all kinds of grief if you keep factory pipes on your bike. It's not about safety, it's about conformity with the rest of the herd. Moo.

Old joke: H.D. is short for "hundred dollar."

RFM

please see above post

I don't have to defend my stance on this. I'm having too much fun fanning the flames.

*ahem* This meta-analysis (http://www.hbns.org/getDocument.cfm?documentID=1389&cid=1110954885&ei=HtZPRdDZDM-SaaPxkfcJ) concludes that while "visibility aids" make pedestrians and cyclists more conspicuous, it's unknown if they actually result in fewer injuries and deaths.

“... We know the time it took for a driver to distinguish a person in the roadway, but what we don’t know is if that was enough time for them to stop and avoid a collision,” said [lead reviewer Irene Kwan].Thanks for the link, that's an interesting article. That said, it's undisputed that drivers' perception distance and recognition distance are both dramatically increased with fluorescent clothing and reflective material. While studies may not have proven-- or disproven-- a lower rate of injuries, it's also undisputed that nighttime reaction times without conspicuity aids are less than one second, meaning that it is virtually impossible for a driver to avoid an inconspicuous cyclist by the time the driver sees the cyclist; the increase in perception and recognition distances at least gives the driver a realistic amount of time in which to take evasive action.

All this article says is that it's unknown whether drivers actually use that increased reaction time.

Don't leather jackets just come in black.

No. Just about every color imaginable is available.

There is an obvious practical side to black... it doesn't show dirt as easily either. Why do bike shorts come mostly in black?

As I understand it, back in the day, racers did not have rear deraileurs. So, they were single speed bikes. When approaching a hill, riders had to change their rear sprocket. You can imagine the grease on their hands. Wiping them on black shorts was less obvious. At least that's the story I heard.

On my Ferrari red Ducati 998, my body is mostly hidden from the view of oncoming traffic. Which, btw, is where most accidents happen involving other vehicles. The classic being the oncoming vehicle turning left in front of the motorcycle because the driver "didn't see" it. If driver's don't see the RED Ducati with headlight on or my red/white/blue helmet over the top of the bike, they are not going to see my brightly colored jacket. I know this from 30+ years of riding and my stint as an MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) Instructor. Basically, many (if not most) car drivers are incompetent and you are continually at risk when on two wheels.

Here in CT I love the "thinking" of the Harley crowd. Loud pipes save lives but helmets don't. I just chalk it up to Darwinism.

The Hurt Report showed only a very small percentage of car/motorcycle collisions happened with the car striking the motorcycle from behind, which is the place loud pipes point.

I wear foam earplugs beneath my full-face motorcycle helmet to protect my ears from the wind noise over 45mph. I don't know how many loud-pipe riders also use earplugs.