Mountain Biking - Full Suspension ROCKS!

Ok so some of you may know that I've had my new Stumpjumper FSR Comp for a few weeks now and I've put a few good rides on it and I must say the FS world kicks ass. Here are a few things for the hard tailers to think about ... (for those who care)

1. With FS you rarely lose traction in the rear going uphill. This is something I didn't expect, but works like a charm.

2. You can pretty much sit down while going downhill. No more ball jitters.

3. Not nearly as much vibration on your arms!

4. If you have lockouts, your bike will feel just like a rigid on the street. I was surprised at how different it rides with both shocks locked out.

5. Landing jumps is so smoooooooooooth.

6. One thing that kind of caught me by surprise one ride was when I was cornering pretty hard/fast and I hit a little rut in the ground. Since the front shock was compressed I lost traction as I went over the rut almost bailing.

7. Ride height is much higher than bike made 10 years ago. I'm still getting used to being so high on downhills.

8. Disc brakes kick ASS! I used to have to anticipate when to brake ... now I can just mash on them at the exact moment I need to slow down. Careful about going over the bars though.

Just some of my riding experiences in the past few weeks. I'm excited to go out everyday. :beer:

Wahoo! Another dual squishy convert!

I've been riding a dual squishy with hydraulic disc brakes for three years now - trying to convince all my riding buddies to upgrade. Each one that does...after a few rides - stands before me smacking their forehead saying "Why the heck didn't I do this before"!?

Ht Lover here. I understand the point to a dually but won't get one till I think my riding deserves it...

Point number 7 - ride height is higher...your bike must be setup funny. On dh you should be almost chopper style :)

Some things that suck about dual suspension:



1) A dual suspension bike will NEVER be as efficient as a hardtail

2) The front suspension may compress, but you have no rear shock to rebound while the front compresses, tossing you off the bike

3) You can out sprint everyone riding their 30+ pound full suspension

4) Your bike will ALWAYS weigh less than a dual suspension bike ever will



Granted, dual suspension has it's merit.. in fact I actually have one. But I end up riding my hardtail more than anything. At the end of the day the hardtail leaves me feeling much less worn out than my dual suspension does. But when the urban assault time comes around I'll be riding my dually.

Originally posted by Jim311
Some things that suck about dual suspension:



1) A dual suspension bike will NEVER be as efficient as a hardtail one word: Epic

2) The front suspension may compress, but you have no rear shock to rebound while the front compresses, tossing you off the bike This is BS

3) You can out sprint everyone riding their 30+ pound full suspension It's not the bike that is faster it is the person operating the bike.

4) Your bike will ALWAYS weigh less than a dual suspension bike ever will Done correctly a cf FS MTB could weigh as much as a hardtail.



Granted, dual suspension has it's merit.. in fact I actually have one. But I end up riding my hardtail more than anything. At the end of the day the hardtail leaves me feeling much less worn out than my dual suspension does. But when the urban assault time comes around I'll be riding my dually.

If you've never experienced the bucking of a FS bike when the front shock compresses and the rear rebounds you've never ridden a FS bike. In fact, the author of this thread even said it happened to him. I ride a FS, so I know. Not to mention I've read countless articles mentioning it.


Also, there's no way you can argue that a person with a hardtail against a person on a heavier dual suspension is going to lose in a sprint.. NO WAY.


And lastly... if your hardtail doesn't weigh less than an identically specced full suspension, you probably oughta find a lighter frame.

Originally posted by Jim311
If you've never experienced the bucking of a FS bike when the front shock compresses and the rear rebounds you've never ridden a FS bike. In fact, the author of this thread even said it happened to him. I ride a FS, so I know. Not to mention I've read countless articles mentioning it.


Also, there's no way you can argue that a person with a hardtail against a person on a heavier dual suspension is going to lose in a sprint.. NO WAY.


And lastly... if your hardtail doesn't weigh less than an identically specced full suspension, you probably oughta find a lighter frame.

I ride FS, I have never noticed any bucking, maybee because I have it set to my preferences. Stiffer springs solve the problem right there. The sprint thing you mention is false, a FS bike provides better tracking and grip in exchange for weight. Thus it is the rider who makes the difference. I have equally specced bikes, 1 hardtail, 1 full suspension, my FS is quicker. As I said if you manage the weight of the components, a cf FS bike can weigh as much as a hardtail.

I think there is no point to convince anybody that one better then another. There is a bike for every style. Hard tail for XC, FS for DH, urban assault, FR. Road for road of course. Sure you can make a 30 footer on FS. And if you want you can even make it on a hard tail, but that hard tail is better be strong as hell. You can enter a road race and claim that your FSR has all traction road bike can wish for due to your full suspension, but there is no way you can actually compete with the speed of a road bike and it’s weight and these are not the only factors. You can’t just compare 2 bikes that are built for different uses. That’s what I think.

This is NOT a hard concept to understand. It's common knowledge. When you hit the front brake, reguardless of how stiff you have your springs setup, the front WILL dive. And that same concept is compounded when the rear suspension of a bike rebounds, thus pushing the rear up and the front down.


Seriously.. there's no way a FS can weigh the same as a hardtail. If you build them both out of the same materials using the same technology obviously the FS is going to have more parts. Show me a FS frame that weighs less than 3 pounds. You said tracking from FS helps.. but not in a sprint. You'll be bobbing and bouncing while I'm pulling ahead on my HT. I've been riding a long time on both FS and HT.. I know what I'm talking about. I don't make this stuff up just to talk out of my ass.

Originally posted by Jim311
This is NOT a hard concept to understand. It's common knowledge. When you hit the front brake, reguardless of how stiff you have your springs setup, the front WILL dive. And that same concept is compounded when the rear suspension of a bike rebounds, thus pushing the rear up and the front down.


Seriously.. there's no way a FS can weigh the same as a hardtail. If you build them both out of the same materials using the same technology obviously the FS is going to have more parts. Show me a FS frame that weighs less than 3 pounds. You said tracking from FS helps.. but not in a sprint. You'll be bobbing and bouncing while I'm pulling ahead on my HT. I've been riding a long time on both FS and HT.. I know what I'm talking about. I don't make this stuff up just to talk out of my ass.

That's why there is rear lock out, a simple thing, my xc fs is rigged with remote lock out. BTW, I can drop you fairly easily, ht or fs. Been riding for 19 years now, 7th year on a FS bike, been racing for 10. I will give hardtails one advantage, a hardtail is a much better urban bike and a better dirt jumper. I just enjoy my full suspension bikes better than my hardtails. I'm just debating just for debating.

We'll see about that, old man!

http://www.dirtpassion.com/fawk.gif

Originally posted by Jim311
We'll see about that, old man!

http://www.dirtpassion.com/fawk.gif

We will see about that.:D

HT rules! but then again that is my opinion. If i was on a bottomless budget i would probably have a second bike dually. But duallies need more servicing than HT (bushings. bearings etc) and i love simplicity so i love HTs.

Originally posted by bikeCOLORADO
I've been riding a dual squishy with hydraulic disc brakes for three years now - trying to convince all my riding buddies to upgrade. Each one that does...after a few rides - stands before me smacking their forehead saying "Why the heck didn't I do this before"!? Strange, that's what all the single speed converts do too! :D

wow ... didn't really mean to say one was better than the other. just my first experiences on a FS. =)

BTW, I can drop you fairly easily, ht or fs.

Ooooh, you're a tough typer!



Been riding for 19 years now, 7th year on a FS bike, been racing for 10.

According to your profile, you were born in 1980. Riding a bigwheel doesn't count.


:rolleyes:

Bucking? I've never been bucked from either of my dualies in 3 years of riding.

The secret to buck prevention is proper setup...it's a fine balance with rebound control. You want to set it up so that it's fast/slow enough to bounce ONCE and return to normal position after riding flat off a curb. Too slow and the suspension will "pack up" when hitting successive bumps and you'll bottom out. Too fast and your suspension action is more like a springy pogo stick than a well tuned suspension.

Just as with so many other things in our human experience - it all boils down to personal preferences with HT or FS. Your primary riding terrain choice contributes heavily to your choice/preference as well.

I'm a diehard FS rider. I like VERY technical, rocky trails with ledges, lifts and corpses. There's certainly no arguing the fact that virtually ANY HT is more efficient AND lighter than my full suspension 32lb Freeride/XC bike! There's also no arguing the fact that to keep up with a lightweight stickboy on a lightweight HT bike - I've got to me MUCH stronger!

Originally posted by schnell
Ooooh, you're a tough typer!




According to your profile, you were born in 1980. Riding a bigwheel doesn't count.


:rolleyes:

Was on two wheels at the age of 4. I never had a big wheel.

So have I, and I don't have an attitude.

I haven't even pointed out the fact that I could drop you, even though it would be "extremely easy" for me. :D

Originally posted by schnell
So have I, and I don't have an attitude.

I haven't even pointed out the fact that I could drop you, even though it would be "extremely easy" for me. :D

I usually don't have an attitude. Just when I feel like it.

Yeah well...all of you could drop me...:D



I'm a diehard FS rider. I like VERY technical, rocky trails with ledges, lifts and corpses. There's certainly no arguing the fact that virtually ANY HT is more efficient AND lighter than my full suspension 32lb Freeride/XC bike! There's also no arguing the fact that to keep up with a lightweight stickboy on a lightweight HT bike - I've got to me MUCH stronger


What is with all the super light bikes. My ht is heavier than that :D...the dually I am looking at buying would be a minimum of 40 pounds haha

I consider sub 26lb a light bike!

Around Whistler BC (or maybe anywhere in Canda)...40lbs is probably considered an XC bike!

Originally posted by bikeCOLORADO
I consider sub 26lb a light bike!

Around Whistler BC (or maybe anywhere in Canda)...40lbs is probably considered an XC bike!

I was just kidding...I am also 260.. I need to loose weight before my bike does...

No just western canada...;)

Look at the title of the thread (Full Suspension Rocks) FSR BABY!!!

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Look at the title of the thread (Full Suspension Rocks) FSR BABY!!!
Word.

Originally posted by jtown
Ok so some of you may know that I've had my new Stumpjumper FSR Comp for a few weeks now and I've put a few good rides on it and I must say the FS world kicks ass.

Hey,

Congrats on your bike ! I kinda wish I had got a full Suspension but I am just starting out in MTB and didn't realize how quickly I would get addicted to it !

Anyway, I love my Brodie but maybe will buy a Full Susp. next year. Thanks for listing off all the benefits though - it will make it easier for me to justify my decision ! :-)

It's weird - I don't see many females on full susp. bikes around here (I am female). Obviously alot of them buy fs bikes but so far, my Brodie Bruzza seems fine for my skill level.

Justen

I love my full suspsnsion klein, had it for about 3 years now, and I will never go back to a hardtail.

Originally posted by Melt
I love my full suspsnsion klein, had it for about 3 years now, and I will never go back to a hardtail.
With lockouts you can go back anytime. :beer:

Originally posted by jtown
With lockouts you can go back anytime. :beer:

I'll disagree here...if you don't know the diff between a lockout and a ht then you never really rode your ht.

I see the point to a dually and in fact may need one someday but a ht has its merrits as well. The debate in fact is pointless in my eyes but hey thats me :) Ride what you like or in my case ride what you think you deserve :)

Originally posted by Maelstrom
I was just kidding...I am also 260.. I need to loose weight before my bike does...



It's all about power/weight ratio :D

HT RULES!!!!! but that is only my opinion.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
I'll disagree here...if you don't know the diff between a lockout and a ht then you never really rode your ht.

I rode an NS (no suspension) bike up until the summer of my 8th grade year in high school ... which I think was 99 or so ... then I got my trek 6000, later it was stolen, I had no bike for a while ... then I got my klein.

Originally posted by Melt
I rode an NS (no suspension) bike up until the summer of my 8th grade year in high school ... which I think was 99 or so ... then I got my trek 6000, later it was stolen, I had no bike for a while ... then I got my klein.

Does mean you have really ridden one...I rode a 'lockout' for a few days and within 2 minutes could feel the difference between the two.

While a lockout might aid in xc, it is still nothing compared to a real ht.

Originally posted by Maelstrom

While a lockout might aid in xc, it is still nothing compared to a real ht.

Another thing you have to sacrifice with a FS is chainstay length... or rather lack thereof. My old fully rigid 1990 Nishiki Ariel was an excellent climber due to its 16" chainstays... shorter than most MTBs of the day and much shorter than many FS bikes of today. Additionally the short chainstay made for really quick accelerations and the bike seemed a lot nimbler than my current FS XC bike. Sometimes I miss my old Ariel which I stupidly gave away when I got the FS. I'm contemplating getting a hardtail now because in some ways, it's more fun.

If you like short chainstays look at the Kona roast/chute/stuff series. The bikes are made with shorter chainstays to make wheelie drops and more technical turning easier.

Originally posted by Jim311
Some things that suck about dual suspension:

1) A dual suspension bike will NEVER be as efficient as a hardtail

2) The front suspension may compress, but you have no rear shock to rebound while the front compresses, tossing you off the bike

3) You can out sprint everyone riding their 30+ pound full suspension

4) Your bike will ALWAYS weigh less than a dual suspension bike ever will

1) Wrong (specialized epic???????)

2) ?????? Yea, I am sure when people press on their fork on a full suspension bike, they immediately are sent over the bars.
Hint: Theres a thing called rebound damping also

3) Since when do ALL FS BIKES weigh over 30 pounds????

4) If you have a 20 pound FS bike, and a 18 pound hardtail, are you going to actually call the FS bike heavy?????


Originally posted by Jim311
At the end of the day the hardtail leaves me feeling much less worn out than my dual suspension does.


So what dual suspension bike is this? I feel a hell of alot more worn out if I ride a hardtail on a trail at the end of the day compared to if I rode a full suspension. Partly because the rear end constantly bucks up over every little tree root and everything.

I dont know about you, but I have sprinted my 38 pound bighit up long steep streets before. Not only have I sprinted up streets, but I have raced friends on hardtails before (one was riding my old P3) and he gave up while I made it all the way to the top, and still wasnt even really out of breath or tired. Maybe everybody should get a specialized FSR, because they sure perform better than any other bike.

You don't seem to understand. Reguardless of HOW your rebound is setup, a dual suspension WILL BUCK! I've experienced it on tons of FS bikes, read it in tons of magazines...maybe you should do a little reseach. Show me a 20 pounds FS bike. Until you get a bike that is as LIGHT as a hardtail it will never be ass efficient. Is that a hard concept to understand? More weight = less efficiency because you have to haul it all down the trail. There's no way in hell you'd out-sprint a guy on a hardtail on your big hit... NO WAY. Does your friend weigh 350 pounds or something? I'd like to see you beat me to the top of the hill on that dog!

Do I have to scan one of the articles in my bike magazine so that some of you might better understand the concept of how a dual suspension bike can have a bucking effect? I really didn't think it was that hard to understand.. simple physics.

Picture this: You are driving in your car and you slam on the brakes. The front end dips, while the rear end rises. It is the SAME concept on a dual suspension bike. Often when you hit a deep rut or drop off a small ledge the front fork will compress, and the rear shock will decompress, causing the rear to rise up and the front to dip. It's NOT that hard to understand, but I suppose I can SCAN this article if you really MUST have a simpler explanation.

Actually MBA had an article last year that talked about the FS/HT issue. Based on research done by bicycle companies, all signs pointed towards FS being more efficient..Especially with the advent of rigs such as the Epic. People still hang with HT because it "feels" more efficient..Even though it's not. Based on the article, I agree that FS is more efficient...However, I think every bike has it's place, and I can't really say more since I haven't ridden a FS on the trail.

Tee hee, I did a search on alltheweb for Full suspension designs vs. Hardtail designs, and my first result was to a bikeforums thread..pretty coolio.


http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?threadid=1835

Originally posted by Jim311
You don't seem to understand. Reguardless of HOW your rebound is setup, a dual suspension WILL BUCK! I've experienced it on tons of FS bikes, read it in tons of magazines...maybe you should do a little reseach. Show me a 20 pounds FS bike. Until you get a bike that is as LIGHT as a hardtail it will never be ass efficient. Is that a hard concept to understand? More weight = less efficiency because you have to haul it all down the trail. There's no way in hell you'd out-sprint a guy on a hardtail on your big hit... NO WAY. Does your friend weigh 350 pounds or something? I'd like to see you beat me to the top of the hill on that dog!


Not to switch sides but what you are describing is brake jacking and/or brake Squating. You are correct EVERY fs to date has some form in varrying degrees. But it is all dependant on where the pivot is and what gear you are riding in. Some designs have eliminated jack in the middle ring but still suffer greatly from it in the small ring. It also varries between the different four bar systems. One with a horst link has less jack (very little in fact) compared to a 4 bar designed by Kona which use a rocker system. Compare the 4 bar to a single pivot and the brake jack gets signifigantly worse. Compare again to a softtail system (I forget the actual name) and you actually referse the jacking (instead of bucking you off you get slammed into the ground when you brake). To say they all brake jack the same is very wrong. As designs get better the jacking will get better and in fact be reduced to nothing. Different linkages and designs are working on this. Dw at ridemonkey designed a linkage for Ironhorse hollowpoint that makes a great comprimize between braking ability without the jack. Horst linkage with its pivot lower and than the rear dropout reduced it signifigantly (fsr system) to the point where you really don't notice it. Santa Cruz has a v10 system which is also suppost to have reduced it (I believe as well as creating a near vertical travel).

Brake jack / bucking is in fact TOTALLY eliminated by a floating disc brake system found on some very high end dh bikes. this is also a third party adon except on Balfa bikes I believe which come stock with these on higher end models. Of course this isn't appropriate for xc rigs as it adds weight. this is a special feature designed for certain bikes and works extremely well. For example some of the best dh bikes are single pivot however these are renowned at jacking (bucking you up). Add the floating disc brake and whammo you have a single pivot dh machine that has no brake jack at all.

If you are talking about some other form of jacking (haha) I really have no idea what you are refering too because no one complains about being 'bucked' off if the suspension is setup correctly with proper rebound adjust, damping and weight ratio on the spring.

BTW I am staying out of the efficiency debate...this post was strictly about brake jack...

Originally posted by fubar5
Actually MBA had an article last year that talked about the FS/HT issue. Based on research done by bicycle companies, all signs pointed towards FS being more efficient.

I think you need to differentiate between efficiency and performance. Just because something is more efficient does not mean it will perform better or perform better in all circumstances. Take for instance a jet plane (turbojet or turbofan). It is far less fuel-efficient than a turboprop but has higher performance (max speed, acceleration, time-to-climb, etc...). And in the realm of turbine engines, there are other design features such high vs low bypass... variable vs fixed inlets... Each feature offers trade-offs between efficiency and performance... complexity and added weight vs simplicity and greater thrust-to-weight.

For a more pedestrian comparison, take a Honda Civic vs a Ferrari FX. While the Civic is more fuel efficient, it's certainly not going to beat a 650hp supercar in a race.

Originally posted by khuon
While the Civic is more fuel efficient, it's certainly not going to beat a 650hp supercar in a race.


Translation:


If your riding a fs bike, you are going to lose to somebody who is riding a hardtail.:D

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Translation:


If your riding a fs bike, you are going to lose to somebody who is riding a hardtail.:D

Yes... but you need to qualify that. The mechanic at the bike shop I go to races a fully rigid singlespeed Jamis MTB in XC. He blasts everyone on the climbs but gets killed when the terrain gets gnarly because he has to pick his lines better while the guys with the FS rigs and any amount of travel can just blast right on through. Also the fact that he's only got one gear means he runs out of them on fast descents. His strategy is to try and put as much time on them as he can during the climbs and when the course is relatively flat. The problem is that if he laps them (and he does quite often), he'll be stuck trying to pick his way through the pack without suspension to shoot straighter lines.

I don't think there will ever be an end to this debate.. Like I said, I think every bike has it's place. Besides that, every rider has a different preference.

It also depends alot on what your trails and riding style are. I tend to pick smoother lines, even on my FS bike. I like my FS bike.. but it just flat wears me out riding it versus the hardtail on most of the trails. It's awesome to descend on.. but I hate to climb on it. I have a sprinting style and that bike doesn't accomodate that well. I'm much more comfortable in the rough stuff, but on the climbs or sprints it just feels like a real dog to me. I find myself riding the hardtail 90% of the time. But for urban assault/downhill I'd deffinitely choose the FS bike.

once you go fs.....you never go back:beer:

i dont think i will ever buy another hardtail?!:p

Originally posted by auger
once you go fs.....you never go back:beer:

i dont think i will ever buy another hardtail?!:p

Thats cause you like to sit :D...

Last weekend I went for a ride with a couple friends with fs. One had a 38 lb Specialized Big Hit set up for freeride, another on an older i-drive set up for xc (about 28 lbs), and me on my 24 lb HT Stumpjumper. We had to stop several times so they could try some nasty jumps:D It was entertaining to watch. When we actually rode, I owned them on the longer climbs and stayed even on the smooth trails. But I ate their dust on the really rocky descents. But there were also plenty of technical sections that were all about the rider that I held my own on. At the end of the 10-mile ride, I was the only one with a sore lower back (i-drive guy was sore all over from a couple face and ass plants). That M2 frame is pretty harsh. The fs guys spent most of the ride trying to convince me to go fs. At the end of the ride I was considering it, but I ultimately decided to stick to my plan of getting a steel HT when my M2 dies. I will not go fs until I am satisfied with my skills as a mountain biker. After all, if you can't handle a certain obstacle on a ht, how will it look if you can't handle it on a fs, either?

yep sittin is cool, most hard tails do beat me up hills thats for sure! but in the tecnical and downhill, folks be gettin smoked! I salute the folks that are riding hardtails to hone skills and waiting till they are worthy of the big bikes! lmao i could get into a tec. rant but im not going to F S IS SO SOFT AND BOUNCY MY BACK IS NEVER SORE! I think people are in fs denial though to be honest, imagine your fav trail on an ibis bowtie!