Poll: Do you ride in phase or out of phase and which do you like better? [Archive]

zonatandem

02-08-07, 04:18 PM

We've been riding OOP for 30+ years and 200,000+ miles. Not even remotely thinking of going back to IP!
However, we've done quickie tandem test rides IP and stoker is the first one to complain about it. If we do longer test rides we do set up pedals 90 degrees OOP with pilot leading . . . yes, she notices immediately if pilot goofed up and has her leading by 90 degrees!
++ riding OOP for us: easier start ups from a full stop; easier/smoother climbing as there is always a power stroke going 'over the top;' minimizes any frame flex; less stress on BBs, rear wheel/spokes/drivetrain; minimizes or completely eliminates 'tandem snake' (when you follow n IP tandem and they are 'powering up'/standing the back end of the bike tends to weave/waggle or 'snake' back and forth).
Try it both ways for a few weeks and then decide which works best for your team!
OOPers are definitely in the minority . . . but then we're used to things like that.

Pedal on TWOgether (OOP, of course!)
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

lmzimmer

02-08-07, 06:04 PM

Basically Rudy covers it. We tried OOP as trial for a few weeks after a posting by Zonatandem gave us the idea, and have never changed back. I agree that the power phase for us is better, There seems to be more lateral stability when only one person is powering the downstroke. Perhaps others have different experiences but we like it.

Hermes

02-08-07, 06:18 PM

I have several posts on OOP v IP but the bottom line for us is a 5% increase in average speed for the same cardiac output in favor of OOP. Granted this is very qualitative and subject to error but our GPS data and HR data bear out the findings.

We second all of Zona’s observations and findings.

Now allow me to argue in favor of IP. Manufactures ship tandems IP. If OOP is better, why would they not ship it that way? I think that simplest reason is ease of sale. If a prospective new buyer of tandem sees OOP, they may think it is too difficult to ride. It just looks more complicated. We have had numerous threads and it continues to be discussed with its nuances and rider preferences – it is more complicated. IP is just an easier sell and it seems intuitively correct.

What cycling situations would favor IP? I have a friend who is a masters track racer and he was telling me that on the track, male tandem teams can reach 50 + mph at peak sprint and they always ride IP. So for out of the saddle coordinated sprinting, IP is the best because it produces max torque and acceleration which is needed to win sprints.

Doggus

02-08-07, 07:58 PM

The one lone slight OOP vote. We go with the captain advanced a few teeth. We've done it with the captain retarded (my wife would contend with a retarded captain) a few teeth but that led to some weird feedback in the pedals. IP was somewhat choppy. Slight advanced OOP has really smoothed out the stroke.

TandemGeek

02-08-07, 08:07 PM

Haven't you seen the promos for the new sitcom where Patrick Warburton, (aka, David Puddy on Seinfield) talks about compromise and marriage? "My wife wanted a cat. I didn't want a cat. We compromised and we got a cat."

We have ridden both ways and while I think there are definitely some arguments in favor of OOP, at the end of the day Debbie prefers IP for a variety of reasons, none of which are flawed.

Debbie's observations:
- She likes the whoosh, whoosh, whoosh of the pedal strokes that come with being IP.
- She finds it reassuring when we're in sync, moving together with the ebb and flow of the bike.
- She finds my legs spinning out of sync with hers to be a distraction (remember, she has lots of room and can see a lot more from her saddle than most stokers who have their faces in their captain's back)
- She likes it when we climb and sprint out of the saddle with the bike moving side-to-side (I'm a bike thrower)
- She's seen other couples riding OOP and, well, it just looks wrong.
- She doesn't find the ride to be any more or less enjoyable OOP, so what's the point?
- She knows we can't ride technical single track on our off-road tandem OOP so why add complexity to something that's pretty simple and intuitive.

So, while I could argue the point and put us in phase for all of the other oft cited reasons, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Call it a compromise or giving-in, but we (not me, not I, and not her), WE ride IP.

zonatandem

02-08-07, 08:51 PM

Riding IP looks more symetrical than OOP and tandems in shops are set up IP. Heck most shops/salespeople that sell tandems have no idea there is a choice!
When we did extended test riding for C'dale in the early 80s on their first prototype, we had to explain to their engineers why we wanted to change their IP setup to OOP. One of their engineers finally exclaimed: "Yeah, that makes sense! Do it."
Majority of folks ride IP. Does not mean that IP folks are right or OOPers are wrong. It's a question of team's preferences.
Agree that real off-roading does not lend itself to OOP when there's obstacles to negotiate, but on trails, etc. it's perfectly do-able.
OOP works well for us, and 90% of the folks we've explained it too and who've tried it, tend to stay OOP.
20/30-some some years ago we were really the odd-balls at any tandem get together by pedaling OOP. OOPing is no longer on the endangered practices list! Just like rabbits, we've s-l-o-w-l-y multiplied!

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

teamcompi

02-08-07, 08:55 PM

We now have a da Vinci and now go ip and oop with ease.

zonatandem

02-08-07, 09:21 PM

Loved the 'doubler effect' on the daV and the use of 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings. Gave it the smoothest front shifting of any tandem we've ridden + workmanship was outstanding. However, being used to 90 degrees OOP, the IP-OOPing and Independent Coasting was not to our liking.

thecheat

02-08-07, 10:22 PM

We switched to 90* OOP on the road tandem about 6 weeks ago after reading some posts here on the forum. The first few miles felt kinda strange, but then things settled down as we got use to it. I have to say that it does seem like it has increased our top end speed slightly. The other benifit is that for us it seems to facilitate climbing out of the saddle better that IP. I don't think we are going back.

In the Mountain bike tandem we are still riding IP. Its already hard enough to time the pedals over rocks and logs and such IP.

Mark.

ken cummings

02-08-07, 10:40 PM

The wife and I are IP and OOP every few pedal strokes. Our tandem has a drive train that allows her to pick her own cadence +- 20% of my cadence. She usually likes to pedal 10% slower then I. I had to think for a moment of what the rest of you are talking about. Google counterpoint tandems, still made by Bilenky and someone else.

hortan

02-09-07, 04:10 AM

I voted "tried both and preferred OOP" but as a matter of fact we indeed like/prefer OOP but we never tried IP (and never will)

ElRey

02-09-07, 04:34 AM

It's telling that a full third of folks have not even tried. And for those who do, it's 2 to 1 in favor of OOP. My suggestion: get out yer wrenches and make some changes on that bike!!! Most folks seem so afraid of adjusting anything they never learn what their optimal settings are.

Fenlason

02-09-07, 05:44 AM

I voted... that I have tried OOP and prefer IP. To be truthful I have not given OOP, what some would say a real try. I did not stick with it for a few weeks.
As has been said OOP does not work well off road. I am not sure I want to be riding one tandem IP and the others OOP. I also like the way IP is for standing. While this is no comment about those that prefer OOP I think the bennefits are greater for those that do not have a smooth spin.

Yet with what I have read about riding OOP here the past few weeks, I think I might give a serious try again. [when riding season is back]

glenn

cornucopia72

02-09-07, 05:52 AM

We read somewhere that "OOP hurts the spirit of the tandem team" and that "OOP looks awkward and wrong" for us those observations felt true for the first 10 or 20 miles. After that, for us is more like ball room dancing or love making. We have to admit that, in spite of the pool's results, we are a rare breed. None of the teams we ride with or by uses OOP. ElRey is right, most people are too afraid to try thinkering with something that works well.

masiman

02-09-07, 06:20 AM

ElRey is right, most people are too afraid to try thinkering with something that works well.

I don't think they are afraid so to speak. I find most people will not adjust their bikes because they don't know how, don't care or don't want to. Couple that with a lack of desire to experiment and they typically won't. Fear only comes in when they have a change they did not completely buy into.

D ranged

02-09-07, 06:23 AM

Xanti Andia

02-09-07, 06:44 AM

About 100 km OOP so far, we like it except for two problems that might be show stoppers:
1. I struggle with my stoker to get the push off pedal up where I can push from a standing stop. She always leaves me with my pedal in the bottom of the down stroke where there is nothing I can do.
2. When taking the flat narrow slot between a slow bump and the curve I don't know where to put the pedals such that neither the curb nor the solw bump hit the peddals, have not hit yet but I worry. (Lots of those on some of our rides).

If we can work these two kinks out, we will stay OOP I think. Standing on the peddals OOP is fun.

bikeriderdave

02-09-07, 06:55 AM

TandemGeek

02-09-07, 07:39 AM

Heck most shops/salespeople that sell tandems have no idea there is a choice!

Right. Try again.

Here's Mark Johnson, owner of Precision Tandems, along with his family... 13+ years selling tandems

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/08-31-02quintmtr1md.jpg

Here are Jack & Susan Goertz, owners of Tandems Limited... 20+ years selling tandems

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/goertz.jpg

Here are Mel & Barb Kornbluh, owners of Tandems East.... 19 years selling tandems

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/kornbluh.jpg

Pat Gibbons & Lynn Dexter, owners of Tandem Cycle Works of Colorado... 10 years and the only brick & mortar store front tandem retail business in the US.

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/moab2.jpg

Dick & Marylin Powell, former owner of Bicycle Outfitter.... many, many years in the biz..

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/p_san_t2.jpg

Bill & Jan McCready, owners of Santana Cycles, Inc... 25+ years producing & selling tandems.

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/mccready.jpg

And, for the hammerheads, feel free to check some Co-Motion Classic photos from 2005.... Just try to find a team OOP.

http://www.pbase.com/turnert/comotion

TandemGeek

02-09-07, 08:00 AM

Not afraid... unmotivated. I'd guess that most "I've only tried IP" teams see no good reason to make the effort to try riding OOP. Simply put: For most teams IP works, and for them the old saw, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" applies. Especially in the case of OOP, which will obviously take some effort getting used to.

+1. That's about the size of it.

Most people tend to go with the flow and look to folks with experience and the masses to see how it's done when they start doing something new, like tandem cycling. Why did the first tandems way back in the late 1800's get set up in-phase? Who knows, but it's probably something as simple as "it looked more graceful" and just seemed right. From then on, most tandems were displayed, test ridden, and sold with the cranks in phase and that's the way it is.

There is no doubt that OOP "feels" better for some teams and y'all can continue to cite your various theories and when asked, help to convert others so they too can see the light. However, the greatest probability of a successful conversion will come from teams that usually ride alone or with single bikes who haven't done much riding with other tandems, never mind having never attended a tandem rally. Moreover, if you happen to ride with them OOP is more likely to "stick" as it's not nearly as odd looking when just a lone tandem or even two tandems are riding OOP. Like anything, once a team has it in their head that OOP works better for them, well then it does. Again, as to why, look to your stoker's strengths and weaknesses or what it was that ailed you when you rode in phase as a Team.

Frankly, at the end of the day, notwithstanding issues associated with riding tandems on technical off-road single track, riding IP or OOP is simply a matter of figuring out what your team prefers... similar to which side of the bed you sleep on, blonde or brunette, etc...

Also, for a lot of teams, keep in mind my earlier anecdote about "compromise". Unless your stoker's a type A personality and/or the cyclist in the cyclist in the family and a real driver behind your tandeming activities, they'll usually go along with what ever you suggest as captain as long as it doesn't cause them too much pain, discomfort, mental anquish or create "image" issues if they are prone to vanity.

And, yes, OOP does feel "easier" which goes back to another one of my analogies about OOP: riding IP = a 1000cc/150hp two cylinder engine, whereas riding OOP = 1000cc/150hp four cyclinder engine. Same displacement, same power, but a completely different power band and torque curve. Likewise, any problems with a weak cylinder or ignition timing will have a different impact on engine performance in a 2 vs. 4 cyclinder engine.

Redpath

02-09-07, 08:40 AM

I've been OOP my entire life!
I can see the advantage from a power balancing and efficiency perspective. But I find myself siding with TG's Debbie too-I like the in-sync feel, and it just looks wrong.
Just for grins though we'll give it a try.

zonatandem

02-09-07, 10:53 AM

Have ridden tandem with the McCreadys, the Kornbluhs, the Goertzes and theGibbons/Dexter duos and they all were riding IP. These folks are all *experienced* in tandems/sales.
Most LBS salespeople that sell tandems have no idea about IP or OOP. OTOH, a tandem specialty shop does know and *may* explain folks the option, but only if they ask. Most newbie tandem purchasers have no clue. Asides from fit they worry about 'what color' to choose most of all.
We have been involved in tandem riding/sales/promotion/writing/national workshops and rallies since the mid-70s.
We are not trying to convert tandemers to anything; we ride OOP and like it and we are glad to explain it to anyone who asks.
The ultimate choice is up to the tandem team.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

cornucopia72

02-09-07, 11:16 AM

These folks are all *experienced* in tandems/sales.
Most LBS salespeople that sell tandems have no idea about IP or OOP. OTOH, a tandem specialty shop does know and *may* explain folks the option, but only if they ask. Most newbie tandem purchasers have no clue. Asides from fit they worry about 'what color' to choose most of all.

That exactly has been our experience.

So far in the poll, only 50% of those who try OOP prefer it to IP. We have to admit that if we had ridden only a few miles OOP and then went back to IP we wouldn't prefer it either. As it was said above... it takes some effort and motivation and I will bet that for some teams "fear of change" is a factor.

Hermes

02-09-07, 12:31 PM

That exactly has been our experience.

So far in the poll, only 50% of those who try OOP prefer it to IP. We have to admit that if we had ridden only a few miles OOP and then went back to IP we wouldn't prefer it either. As it was said above... it takes some effort and motivation and I will bet that for some teams "fear of change" is a factor.

The sales people use the promotional materials PAID for by the manufacturers. Brochures feature happy couples riding IP. Their web sites feature and depict IP. Manufactures, if assembled by them, ship IP. I have talked with manufacturers and they know the advantages of OOP but prefer the ease of sale. Dealer and distribution networks follow manufacturers lead.

TandemGeek

02-09-07, 02:30 PM

The sales people use the promotional materials PAID for by the manufacturers. Brochures feature happy couples riding IP. Their web sites feature and depict IP. Manufactures, if assembled by them, ship IP. I have talked with manufacturers and they know the advantages of OOP but prefer the ease of sale. Dealer and distribution networks follow manufacturers lead.

Damn! And to think that all these years I actually thought we just happened to prefer riding our tandems with the cranks in phase when, in fact, it was all a ruse, nay, a conspiracy by the bicycle industry just to fatten their bottom lines by compromising our riding performance and pleasure! Who could have imagined that the manufacturers and dealers have gone so far as to eschew riding their own tandems in the far more efficient and advantageous out-of-phase configuration just to perpetuate this fraud upon tandem enthusiasts around the world!!!

Seriously, I don't disagree that tandem dealers don't want to get into a discussion about IP vs OOP. Anything that complicates the selling process is a bad thing and puts the sale in jeopardy. This is known to any good tandem dealer, experienced or not, and regardless if they know diddly-do-do about IP vs. OOP, "the proper method", the joys of butt breaks, or anything else that a true tandem enthusiast takes for granted. However, IP just happens to be the default, baseline, tradition, standard, dogma, or what ever you want to call it because it works well for the vast majority of tandem teams, including everyone who I know who builds or sells tandems other than Todd Shusterman. The same is true of "the proper method" of starting and stopping, and a whole bunch of other cycling "traditions" or "norms" that pertain to equipment, clothing, and technique.

Again, it works well for some teams but, at the end of the day let me leave you with one observation about whether or not it provides any significant degree of performance enhancement: People who race bicycles as a profession or as amatuers at the elite level will spend a fortune on equipment, endless hours in the saddle, and risk personal health issues by using questionable training practices to gain a competitive advantage that are often times measured in tenths of a second in performance improvements. Yet, when you look at the most elite tandem teams -- the ones that win the Nationals, the Co-Motion Classic, or events at the local level -- how many have adopted "out-of-phase", a change that takes less than a minute to make and costs absolutely nothing?

Personally, I don't care how people set up their tandems. I just try to explain what I've observed and what I think I've learned.

ROJA

02-09-07, 02:37 PM

Great feedback so far- keep it coming. I should have added "only tried OOP" (didn't there was anyone in this camp) and "neither- da Vinci, etc." for the independent folks to chime in.

I have to admit that I haven't tried OOP or really given it much thought, but I am going to give it a shot soon. I like the appeal of being able to climb better out of the saddle.

Doggus

02-09-07, 03:24 PM

<snip>Yet, when you look at the most elite tandem teams -- the ones that win the Nationals, the Co-Motion Classic, or events at the local level -- how many have adopted "out-of-phase", a change that takes less than a minute to make and costs absolutely nothing?

I don't know, how many? I was hoping I didn't have to read all that and then be left hanging. Do the majority of 'pros' use OOP or IP?

TandemGeek

02-09-07, 05:31 PM

How'z about a few more photos....

Again, as noted earlier, here's a link to a photo gallery from a previous Co-Motion Classic:
From the Co-Motion Classic; lots 'o tandems, but none out of phase: http://www.pbase.com/turnert/comotion

Here's a neat clip: "History was made on Sept 23rd 2000 at Manchester Velodrome when Simon Keeton and Jon Rickards broke the tandem one hour record with 50.068km beating Mills and Pauls pre war record"
http://www.rutlandcc.org.uk/images/Simon-Keeton-and-Jon-Rickar.jpg

Here's a photo of the previous world record holders, Ernie Mills & Bill Pauls on their fixed-gear:
http://www.addiscombe.org/nontext/tandem/tandemphoto2.jpg

And then there's this one: Elaine and Jim Miller, US National Criterium, Sprint, 500m, Pursuit and Mixed Tandem Champions, World Time Trial Champions.
http://www.tufonorthamerica.com/images/gallery/pic16.jpg

Here's a bonus shot: Dwan Shepard & Rolf Dietrich (Yes, that Rolf) at the Co-Motion Classic:
http://i7.pbase.com/v3/81/380081/4/47077798.wolf_002.jpg
Click here for larger image (http://i5.pbase.com/v3/81/380081/2/47077798.wolf_002.jpg)

And, to throw a bone to the OOP folks, here's a photo of Sean Yates' time trial tandem which, you'll notice, has the stoker's cranks advanced a few teeth:
http://www.seanyates.co.uk/assetts/photos/website048.jpg

lmzimmer

02-09-07, 07:14 PM

We have experienced the problem with the OOP pedal being in the wrong spot to start. If you ride with toeclips or clipless pedals Just ask your stoker to backpedal slightly while they are clipped in until pedal is correct .This is now part of our starting procedure with my stoker moving the pedals so I can start with the preferred foot.

Doggus

02-09-07, 08:18 PM

How'z about a few more photos....

Looks like we're the only ones that ride like pros: slightly OOP! Doesn't seem to help our speed though :(

masiman

02-09-07, 08:22 PM

Great feedback so far- keep it coming. I should have added "only tried OOP" (didn't there was anyone in this camp) and "neither- da Vinci, etc." for the independent folks to chime in.

I thought about mentioning it but then I thought the poll is about traditional IP and OOP. The 'indepedent' data would not be relevant to that question.

Michel Gagnon

02-09-07, 09:53 PM

I voted "In Phase". Well, we're actually close to it.
My stoker is still young so her stroke is not totally circular. So I find it easier on my knees when my stoker is about 3 teeth ahead of me.

djembob02

02-09-07, 10:17 PM

I voted IP as I have never tried OOP on our triplet. Does anyone have any theories on a triplet phase. Of course, I can do the math and figure that if we were all 60 degrees apart, this would make for a full circle, however, there are additional considerations.

My usual stoker is my daughter (5 yo). She rides well but possibly could benefit from being a little advanced or behind, I'm not really sure of the theory of which would be preferred.
Then when my wife is with us in the rear stoker spot, again she rides well, but doesn't have near the strength. I'm thinking she would be about 90 degrees behind the pilot. What are your thoughts?

Basically, I have been in the "if it works, don't mess with it." With just the little one and I, we ride along side the fastest riders in our group, except when going up steep hills. With all three of us, yes we're slower, but I think it has a lot more to do with the weight and strength of the team than the phase of pedals. But I am open to changing it and I certainly know how. Maybe I'll try a few things and see how they work.

cornucopia72

02-09-07, 11:24 PM

We also have a triple and ride it IP. The "reason" is that the skill level of some of the people that stoke for us is highly variable. But we have decided to move the triple OOP and try it with our daughter (our most likely stoker) when she comes home next time. We will move the pedals 45 degrees apart with the captain leading, then the mid stoker, and then rear stoker, for a total of 90 degrees between captain and rear stoker. I would not put them at 60 degrees apart since that would make it near impossible to keep the pedals from hitting the pavement on thight turns and while negotiating other obstacles. We are confident that the OOP configuration will be a lot easier on the transmition... we have broken a couple of chain while hammering uphill.

stapfam

02-10-07, 01:44 AM

We only ride off road and I've tried both ways.

The one time we rode OOP was accidental due to the chain breaking and when I put it back together I didn't realize I had the pedals OOP. It didn't take long to realize the problems. When crossing a log or other obstacle I always allow time for the back pedals to clear before starting to pedal. When the pedals are OOP whichever one is down slams into the obstacle. The same goes with tight cornering around trees and rocks. I have to know which pedal to keep high to avoid the obstacle.

So, as mentioned before, when riding off road IP is the only way to go with us.

I did try OOP once and as soon as we hit the dirt we had problems. It was almost unridable when crossing rough ground and as for logs and rocks- Forget it. Even coasting at speed out of the saddle became difficult as both of us like to have the pedals level. This was only about 45 deg OOP so next ride I took the Crank puller out with me and we tried it at 90Deg. That was impossible offroad. We did have some success at 180 deg, which we just decided to try,but a few crank hits on rocks made us see the light and it was not long on that ride before we we were back to in phase.

cornucopia72

02-10-07, 06:16 AM

We do not think that this poll should be taken by off-road only/mostly teams. Evidently OOP does not apply there. No ofense intended. And don't know if any offroaders have taken it.

TandemGeek

02-10-07, 06:39 AM

Looks like we're the only ones that ride like pros: slightly OOP!

Well, sort of. As I said, I was throwing the OOP'ers a bone with the photo of Yates' time trial tandem sitting with the cranks out of phase. As to why it was out of phase when the photo was taken, I'm not exactly sure... It was something I had on my web site's Bulletin Board back in April of last year.

However, here's how Sean and brother Christian Yates actually rode that tandem in their blistering 1st place time trial effort at the Brighton Mitre 25 last October:

http://www.thetandemlink.com/Images/yates.jpg

You can also find a pretty good close-up shot HERE (http://www.cyclingtimetrials.org.uk/galleries_popup.asp?imgTitle=Sean%20Yates%20/%20Christian%20Yates%20-%201st%20Tandem%20-%2049.34,%20In-Gear%20RT%20/%20In-Gear%20RT&imgPath=http://www.pjwphotos.co.uk/WebSite/291006/slides/ND026439.JPG&PhotographerInc=wright.htm)

Eurastus

02-10-07, 07:43 AM

Didn't vote, as we've got a da Vinci, and thus independent. This is our second tandem...and second da Vinci.

I can report that without looking back to check where the stoker's cranks are at any given moment, I wouldn't know if we're IP or OOP, or by how much. I can't tell a difference one way or the other by how the bike feels or sounds.

I strongly suspect this is because none of my stokers are anywhere near as strong as an adult on the back would be. In most cases, they're just along for the ride, and that's fine with me. At least we're out together.

Having had my dear wife on the back a few times, if we had a fixed drivetrain, I suspect we'd prefer slightly OOP, with the captain leading. At least that's how I'd set it up at first and see how it went over time.

TandemGeek

02-10-07, 08:02 AM

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from riding OOP. It it works for your team, that's great. Ultimately, anything that improves the satisfaction a team gets from tandeming -- be it technique, equipment, apparel, nutrition, time together, or social interaction -- is goodness.

OOP works fine for us too, but we simply prefer to ride IP because we couldn't quantify the benefits aside from simply being different. But, then again, I don't find myself pushing Debbie's feet by driving a cadence that she's not comfortable with or being adversely impacted by some of the other little team-melding nuances that OOP mitigates in terms of "smoothing out" the power as well as mitigating power robbers. In fact, here's a clue as to which teams should probably try OOP. If both captain and stoker are single bike riders who find that they are "faster" on their single bikes than the tandem, chances are they're struggling with pedal stroke compatibility issues: they should try OOP. Teams where the captain or stoker are very strong and push a fast cadence who ride with a partner who is far weaker and tires easily may benefit from OOP (or, better yet, a daVinci).

My arm chair analysis: It's hard enough to make a tandem move along efficiently when you have two riders that are working together; however, if one of the riders is also pushing against the other rider's feet it gets a lot harder.

Putting cranks 90 degrees out of phase eliminates most of that resistance by making sure that when rider A's feet are moving through the strong down/up stroke of crank circle, rider B's feet are moving through the weaker top/bottom stroke of the crank circle, and visa versa... which means rider A gets an extra "boost" when they're moving through the weaker top and bottom stroke and, if rider B isn't on their game, rider A doesn't lose as much energy during their power stroke. For strong teams that are fighting against each other, it simply eliminates the leader/follower problem since each rider now "owns" their own power stroke.

Partial out of phase by a few teeth merely biases when and how much initial resistance the rider with their pedals leading feels before the other rider comes into the power stroke. It's a good way to either reduce the load and fatigue on one rider or to help one of the other riders work harder by allowing them to "feel" some added resistance.

The only real question to ask yourselves if you do opt to go OOP is, do you plan to use it as a training aid to build up the strength of a rider or is it the long-term solution to unreconcilable differences?

Just some additional food for thought.

Eurastus

02-10-07, 08:07 AM

Teams where the captain or stoker are very strong and push a fast cadence who ride with a partner who is far weaker and tires easily may benefit from OOP (or, better yet, a daVinci).
The Geek hits the nail squarely on the head yet again...(like he ever misses? Haven't seen that yet).

His reasoning is exactly why we're big da Vinci fans.

Thigh Master

02-10-07, 02:59 PM

Our first OOP (90 degrees) was 5 days ago, Feb 5th, up Mt. Hamilton in San Jose, California. First few blocks it felt like we had less "umph" (less torque); however, JUST as I was enjoying a new "smoother" experience, my stoker said, "I like this." So we are converts. Smoother ride plus easier to steer at 5 mph going up steep stuff. We also like the start from stop better than IP. In terms of racing IP - at least in criteriums, it'd be nasty on tight turns to be OOP, you'd clunk pedals on the ground.

zonatandem

02-10-07, 04:10 PM

Lordoftherings: your statement mirrors our personal experiences.

In our days of tandeming have assembled 100+ tandems and explained the idiosyncracies of IP and OOP to each team. Perhaps 20% were willing/interested to give OOP a try. The ones with a good mechanical aptitude and/or engineering background tend to grasp the idea quickly. Others prefer to ride like the majority, because that's what they've seen in brochures or on the road. A chacun son gout!
There is no real mechanical mystery about changing from IP to OOP. The instructions (if you can find them) will tell you to loosen the eccentric, rotate pedals/loosen chain. Set up OOP to the desired degree/position. Put chain back on, rotate/tighten eccentric.
However, a shortcut (not 'officially' recommended but often practiced) is to elevate back wheel (put bike in workstand or have stoker hold up rear end of the bike). Pedal the cranks backward and with a thin bladed screwdriver derail the chain by the rear crossover chainring.
Set up pedals as desired. Then put chain back on by pedaling forward, while back wheel is elevated. No messing/re-setting of the eccentric necessary.

For Xanti in Buenos Aires:
Problem #1 you listed is easily solved. When you stop the tandem, have stoker s-l-o-w-l-y pedal backwards 'til you get your pedal (left or right) in the push-off position you want. Then make a habit out of that when you stop, she can pedal backwards and set up your pedal for instant take-off.
Problem #2: With most speedbumps/humps it is not an issue. However with some of the old steep/high speedbumps there is a *possibility* of bashing/striking a pedal. Then it becomes the captains responsibility to coast and time the crossing of the steepbump and advance one half pedal stroke so stoker's pedal will clear.
In all our years/miles of riding OOP have only bashed a pedal once on a speedbump and that was at a crossing of the border between US/Mexico. Ruined a good pedal but were able to continue. As you know you can't just buy one pedal . . . they come in pairs. And to top it off it was one of those rare Phil Wood platform pedals that are no longer being made.
Asi es la vida!

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandems

zonatandem

02-10-07, 04:52 PM

For crits/track/off-road IP is the logical choice.
Road riding/touring/timetrials/road race, OOP can be successfully utilized.
Have tandem time trialed (ttt) and have ridden track OOP without any problems.
Mark: loved the short wheelbased same-side-drive tandem of the Yates Bros.
And yes Dieter Rolf does ride tandem . . . when testing his original wheels years ago, he and partner were motorpacing on a tandem and unexpectedly went over a cattleguard at 40 mph . . . stopped the tandem to check the wheels and they were fine; however he decided to beef them up a bit just the same!
Personally I have 2 different riding styles. One on my single the other on the tandem. Always rode aggressively on the the single but on the tandem a touch more conservative as I was not just responsible for myself but also for my life-partner.
However, now in our senior years, we longer go helter-skelter on the single or the tandem. Things change over time! We're just glad to be still out there a-pedalin'!
Tomorrow we are going on a short tandem toot with some friends; he is just coming back from an aneurism/stroke/heart attack . . . it'll be great to ride with them, no matter what the distance or the pace (and they pedal IP)!

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

transam

02-12-07, 04:00 PM

My wife and I have been following this post for the past week and decided it was time to chime in with our opinion about riding OOP. We've enjoyed the discussion and are glad to see there are folks out there that are as enthused about riding OOP as we are. Much of the credit for our enthusiasm has to go to Rudy & Kay. We did a lot of research about the subject before making the change from IP and found R & K's comments on this forum a great help. Thanks!

Carol and I have been bicycle riders most of our lives. We've only been serious about the sport for the past 13 years, averaging around 10,000 miles a year during that period. As with a lot of cycling couples we decided to buy a tandem because of our unequal abilities on a bike. It got frustrating to have one of us waiting at the top of every hill and on the corner of every intersection. In 2001 we purchased a used Cannondale RT1000 on eBay and as the saying goes "it was love at first sight".

About a year ago we got curious about the idea of riding OOP and made the change to see what would happen. On our first attempt we rode 30 degrees out with the captain leading. After that ride the conscenses of opinion was we were a stronger team. A week later we changed to 60 degrees and another week later 90 degrees. Each change made us a little stronger. All the while we kept track of the numbers to see if there was any actual improvement. At the end of the first month of riding OOP we made the conclusion we had improved our average speed by at least 5%. To us that was significant enough to keep the pedals OOP. We now ride just short of 90 degrees OOP with the captain leading.

Some concerns we had before starting our experiement were laid to rest.
1) We'd no longer be able to stand to go up hills - It took a few times to get our OOP legs when we stood to power up hills, but now it comes as natural as when we were in phase.
2) Fast cornering would be impossible - We are not racers, but we do ride hard and we've never clipped a pedal while leaning into the turns.
3) Our pedal stroke would be jerky - Just the opposite. The stroke is smoother now and there is no lag in the power.
4) Other tandem couples would think it looks wierd - We are not concerned about how it looks to others. When you are trying to keep up in a group ride or climbing a long grade being stylish is not important.

We know that riding OOP is not for everyone, but it is for us. We love it and have no plans to go back to riding in phase. Count us as OOPers for life.

djembob02

02-13-07, 09:30 PM

I switched my triplet's cranks to OOP today. My stokette is trailing 45 degrees and the rear trails another 45 degrees. We rode for an hour on the trainer. Of course the trainer isn't like the road, but two things stood out. First, none of my stokers really noticed. While there was no Wow feeling there was also no discomfort and awkwardness. Second, I did notice a little smoother ride and I felt like I had a little more help from the back.

We'll see if this continues when we get on the road. I'm not a convert yet, but I would definetly say that I feel no reason not to be OOP, I think we'll keep it for a while at least. It actually seems like starting and standing might be easier.