Bicycle Mechanics - Warning! SRAM 10-speed PowerLink is NOT reuseable!

So I went to a particular LBS for the first time today to ask about the Cannondale frame replacement program and decided to buy a chain while I was there. They had three options: Ultegra CN6600, SRAM 1070, and SRAM 1090. I decided to try the SRAM 1070 because I liked the PowerLink feature that I had used before (PowerLink Gold for 9-speed). The shop guy concurred that the PowerLink is nice because you can remove the chain over and over.

Well, for SRAM 10-speed, it's not designed to be used over and over. Upon installing it, it was obvious that it to be used only once, and the instruction manual states this as well. If I had known this (or if the shop would have told me instead of assuming it's the same as a 9-speed PowerLink except narrower for 10-speed), I would have bought the cheaper Ultegra chain.

So what is the benefit of a SRAM chain anymore? I say none. Maybe 10 grams lighter but $5 more expensive (than Ultegra, probably $10 more than 105).

Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me? I can't simply return it because I cut it to length before I found out that the PowerLink is not reuseable.

Because it's still a better chain than the Shimano and because re-joining the chain with a new PowerLock master link still beats the heck outta Shimano's stupid replacement pins.

Because it's still a better chain than the Shimano and because re-joining the chain with a new PowerLock master link still beats the heck outta Shimano's stupid replacement pins.
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Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me?

Are you even human?

So this PowerLock is better than Shimano's system how? If I need to remove and replace this chain I have to buy a new PowerLock at $5+ each time instead of for free since Shimano chains come with one or two extra connecting pins.

So this PowerLock is better than Shimano's system how? If I need to remove and replace this chain I have to buy a new PowerLock at $5+ each time instead of for free since Shimano chains come with one or two extra connecting pins.

The connecting pins (especially the 10 speed variety) are prone to failure unless installed carefully. It is really a bad system for joining the chain.

The connecting pins (especially the 10 speed variety) are prone to failure unless installed carefully. It is really a bad system for joining the chain.
I've never used a 10-speed Shimano chain (or other 10-speed chain, for that matter) but I've never had a problem with the replacement-pin system in Shimano chains for 9- and 8-speed...

10 speed pins are picky as hell because everything's so narrow. They're better than they used to be but still not as easy as the old 8/9.

I guess SRAM did not want to continuing licensing the design from Superlink. Why not buy a 10sp Superlink and use the Ultegra or replace the Powerlink with a Superlink?

Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me?Absolutely not! :)

I’m also disappointed to learn about the non-reusability of the 10 speed SRAM link. Wipperman ConneX links are also a major disappointment since they are ridiculously priced – 9 speed is only $4 but the narrow 10 speed is $13 (Performance pricing). Current best option seems to be the new $7 Super Link IV. KMC also makes a link but it’s priced up there with Wipperman so why bother?

Overall, it’s a sad state of affairs when it comes to 10 speed chains. All the mfgers are gouging on price and consumers like us are feeling the pinch. Sad state indeed.

There is nothing "hidden" about the fact that the SRAM 10sp chain uses a non-reusable PowerLink - it's visible in the instruction sheet. RTFM, as they say. I do admit that they are quite silent about it on their web site, skirting about the issue - they talk about the link as a faster and more secure way of joining the chain, but never mention anything about taking it apart.

In choosing a replacement for an Ultegra 10sp, I wound up with the ConneX as the best alternative. And it works great. It can be replaced, not fiddling with replacement pins, it remains strong, and it shifts flawlessly. But it is more costly, i.e. like $90 vs $35 for an Ultegra chain.

In choosing a replacement for an Ultegra 10sp, I wound up with the ConneX as the best alternative. And it works great. It can be replaced, not fiddling with replacement pins, it remains strong, and it shifts flawlessly. But it is more costly, i.e. like $90 vs $35 for an Ultegra chain.


Your definition of "BEST" is COMPLETELY different from mine! I'll quit biking for life before I pay $90 for a chain!!!

At worst one could buy a Shimano chain for $30 - $40 and then buy a connecting link from Wipperman or a Superlink for $7 - $13. In either case you are WAY less than $90.

The connecting pins (especially the 10 speed variety) are prone to failure unless installed carefully. It is really a bad system for joining the chain.

How can you tell if you've installed it incorrectly? I had to use a reconnecting pin to lengthen my chain, but now I'm dredding the bloody thing breaking on me during a ride and to make matters worse I don't have a dork disc anymore. :eek:

Sounds like a huge step step backward for SRAM.

Fortunately, there's IRD:

http://www.interlocracing.com/chains.html

I've always preferred their chains, anyway.

Im using an Ultegra chain with a Connex link on my SRAM stuff.. works fine. Had to remove the SRAM chain and couldnt find a Powerlock anywhere so it's just laying on my workbench until I can get another Connex link to go in it.

overall, its a sad state of affairs when it comes to 10 speeds, PERIOD.

great marketing gimmick, though. Got all you guys to upgrade, didn't it?

Ride one of the ultra light campy 10spd chains with the narrowest of connex links for 1 season and have removed the chain to clean it multiple times...no problems. Try a connex quick link.
On the $5 the bike store doesn't know everything about every product. It would be nice if you went back and gave some NICE feedback on the chain. It would help the knowledge base of the local bicycling community where you live. Good riding in 07.

overall, its a sad state of affairs when it comes to 10 speeds, PERIOD.

great marketing gimmick, though. Got all you guys to upgrade, didn't it?
Nope. http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/cool0044.gif

DMF, you didn't need that extra nuance in the corncob, eh? Who would really, actually, NEED one more gear in a 11-23? at the expense of cassette and chain longevity, the addition of more finicky shifting and less usable gears in regards to ones' chainline?

So I went to a particular LBS for the first time today to ask about the Cannondale frame replacement program and decided to buy a chain while I was there. They had three options: Ultegra CN6600, SRAM 1070, and SRAM 1090. I decided to try the SRAM 1070 because I liked the PowerLink feature that I had used before (PowerLink Gold for 9-speed). The shop guy concurred that the PowerLink is nice because you can remove the chain over and over.

Well, for SRAM 10-speed, it's not designed to be used over and over. Upon installing it, it was obvious that it to be used only once, and the instruction manual states this as well. If I had known this (or if the shop would have told me instead of assuming it's the same as a 9-speed PowerLink except narrower for 10-speed), I would have bought the cheaper Ultegra chain.

So what is the benefit of a SRAM chain anymore? I say none. Maybe 10 grams lighter but $5 more expensive (than Ultegra, probably $10 more than 105).

Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me? I can't simply return it because I cut it to length before I found out that the PowerLink is not reuseable.



i LOVE hearing about uniformed consumers, such as yourself, getting the shaft.....

like some right wingers love to say...."oh well.....it's your personal responsibilty to know things like this.....to bad....."

The one thing I envy about 10 speed is the presence of a 16t cog on my preferred 12-25 cassette. There is something very nice about that 16 cog.

Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me?

Hah, bring a video camera so we can watch you get thrown out. Maybe if you really, really, want to be remembered as an ass customer.

Oh... On the subject of the '5$' I'd suggest you think back... You say the shop guy 'concurred' with you that the powerlink was nice. Did he say that chain specifically had the replacable powerlink? I'd suggest mentioning it next time you're up at the shop but if you really want to squabble over 5$ on a 10 speed chain I doubt you're going to get anywhere. Depending on the specifics of the whole thing I'd say the most you could hope for would be a hookup on some goods the next time you're in.

i LOVE hearing about uniformed consumers, such as yourself, getting the shaft.....

like some right wingers love to say...."oh well.....it's your personal responsibilty to know things like this.....to bad....."


Are you even human?


Absolutely not! :)


Hah, bring a video camera so we can watch you get thrown out. Maybe if you really, really, want to be remembered as an ass customer.

Wouldn't any of you be at least a little upset if you were at a restaurant and ordered a cheeseburger but the waitress brings you a hamburger but still charges the extra dollar for the cheese that you didn't get?

Personally, I am very non-confrontational and would have a hard time asking for anything back regardless of the situation. I was just trying to vent. The time it would take me to get there is worth way more than $5 too.

I don't understand why anyone would think the customer is at fault in a situation like this though. Why would the customer be expected to know every last detail of every product before he buys it? There would be no reason to have a salesman/technician/whatever because then the customer would just need to go to the store and buy the item he needs (or get it from SuperNashPerf). Often a customer is in a vulnerable position and should be able to trust the presumed expertise of someone who gets paid to know about the products in his store.

On top of this, the first rule of business is that the customer is always right. If the customer is not right, it's still the businesses responsibility to make the customer feel like he's right until an agreeable solution is found.

Other than that, it seems like some other "quick links" for 10-speed chains are not reusable either (KMC is not reusable). So maybe I *could* have figured it out on my own, but my opinion is that I asked the question, and received the wrong answer.

overall, its a sad state of affairs when it comes to 10 speeds, PERIOD.

great marketing gimmick, though. Got all you guys to upgrade, didn't it?

Nope, I'm glad I'm still riding a 2x7 on the road and 3x7 on the MTB. I do quite well, thank you.

I’m also disappointed to learn about the non-reusability of the 10 speed SRAM link. Wipperman ConneX links are also a major disappointment since they are ridiculously priced – 9 speed is only $4 but the narrow 10 speed is $13 (Performance pricing). Current best option seems to be the new $7 Super Link IV. KMC also makes a link but it’s priced up there with Wipperman so why bother?

Overall, it’s a sad state of affairs when it comes to 10 speed chains. All the mfgers are gouging on price and consumers like us are feeling the pinch. Sad state indeed.


KMC connectors are also one use only and cost about $10 for a card of six. Hard to say if this is marketing or whether there really is a problem with reuse since it seems to be a uniform recommendation
by all the manufacturers. Have to wait for some of the high mileage folks to fill us in on their experience. FWIW KMC is made in China and works fine with Centaur shifters
on FSA cranks.

Just picked up my new Trek Pilot today. Took it outside for a test ride and something was making a noise and the chain was skipping.
Two days before this I asked the LBS owner to install a removable link in my new chain so that I could remove the chain and clean it properly---he showed me the link and explained how it came apart and put it with the bike along with some other stuff I wanted changed. We were at the time waiting for a set of wider tires to come in.
After the test ride I pushed it back in the shop and explained the problem to the owner and he immediately put it on the stand. He discovers the "Removable Link" is causing the problem. No problem he justs replaces the link and another test ride satisfies me that everything in working find.
Who do I blame --the LBS owner for getting the wrong link OR the "NEWBIE" bike mechanic for installing it and not really checking it out.
NOBODY--sh*t happens---and I don't think there is anyone on these boards who hasn't made a mistake at least once in their life. The owners quick response in fixing the problem was just fine with me and everyone was happy in the the end. Trying to correct a situation in a nice way first is usually the best course--if that doesn't work you can always go the truck for the Uzi.

I MUST BE GET-TIN SOFT IN MY OLD AGE!!!!!

Wouldn't any of you be at least a little upset if you were at a restaurant and ordered a cheeseburger but the waitress brings you a hamburger but still charges the extra dollar for the cheese that you didn't get?

Yes. But I'd ask for a slab of cheese. I wouldn't order food to go, bring it home, realize my cheese burger had no cheese, drive back and demand my dollar back. If you went back to the bike store asking for $5 back, not only are you creating an inconvienience for yourself, but you're going to make the bike shop never ever help you again. You'll always be "that guy that wanted his $5 back over a chain." We remember you, yes... yes we do.

My solution for you:

Leave your chain on, if you ever need to take it off, buy another master link for .50 cents or whatever they are now. Or, don't push the pin all the way through and you'll never need a master link ever.

Yes. But I'd ask for a slab of cheese. I wouldn't order food to go, bring it home, realize my cheese burger had no cheese, drive back and demand my dollar back. If you went back to the bike store asking for $5 back, not only are you creating an inconvenience for yourself, but you're going to make the bike shop never ever help you again. You'll always be "that guy that wanted his $5 back over a chain." We remember you, yes... yes we do.

My solution for you:

Leave your chain on, if you ever need to take it off, buy another master link for .50 cents or whatever they are now. Or, don't push the pin all the way through and you'll never need a master link ever.

tapeworm--I'm sure glad I don't have to deal at the bike shop where you work---if you hold a GRUDGE over a customer for trying to justify something your shop did wrong you are definitely a poor example of good customer service.

I recently ordered a jersey from an online dealer and when it arrived it had a small "tear" in the seam at the back collar. I called the customer service lady and she said "Oh no problem--just send in back Priority mail and I'll reimburse you the postage". When the packaged arrived yesterday not only did it have the shirt in it but also 2 pair of socks and a bag of "Sports beans". Now that IS customer service!!!!
I now am a dedicated customer of that company.

Apparently you never heard the statement--

"A HAPPY customer tells TEN people.
A UN-HAPPY customer tells a HUNDRED people."

I was a Honda Power Products dealer for 15 years and there is a company who in my opinion invented the term "Customer Service". Maybe one of the reasons they a world renown company.

Methinks you are just another young person working for minimum wage at a LBS with an attitude that you know everything and the customer doesn't--working on bikes is not ROCKET SCIENCE----

P.S. and if you still eat at McDonald's as you mentioned your hurting your body as much as you are hurting your customer's feelings.

Have a nice day.

I don't understand why anyone would think the customer is at fault in a situation like this though.


In the world of the right winger, blame always lays on the customer. Even if he isn't to blame. Since you are the customer, it's your fault.







Why would the customer be expected to know every last detail of every product before he buys it?

Every last detail? It's a CHAIN. How many details are there?

When you buy something, do you do any research AT ALL on the product? If you're relying on bike shop staff to help you out, get ready for a surprise! Most shops staff claim they know their job. But mostly, they are magazine mechanics who wore the right shirt for the interview or knew someone on the inside.






There would be no reason to have a salesman/technician/whatever because then the customer would just need to go to the store and buy the item he needs (or get it from SuperNashPerf).


Well, you'd still need mechanics to work on the bikes of the ******* who can't even manage to replace cables and housing, or bar tape or a cassette. But yes, it would eliminate the sales staff.

And that would be kinda nice. Someone walks in, gets what they need, and walks out withou interrupting my work.




Often a customer is in a vulnerable position and should be able to trust the presumed expertise of someone who gets paid to know about the products in his store.


Expertise?!?!?! Haahaahaa! Come on man. Most of these people work for next to nothing and you expect them to CARE?




On top of this, the first rule of business is that the customer is always right. If the customer is not right, it's still the businesses responsibility to make the customer feel like he's right until an agreeable solution is found.

That's the OLD business model. The new one is. The customer is wrong until deemed a 'tard. Once that's been established, they'll get the worst service, pay more, and always find the job done half-assed.




So maybe I *could* have figured it out on my own, but my opinion is that I asked the question, and received the wrong answer.

The moral of this story is: Never Trust Anyone.

If you don't want to take the time to get informed about something, why should someone (who probably doesn't care anyway) take the time to do the job for you?

I'll quit biking for life before I pay $90 for a chain!!!


**** yeah...

ahem, rebuttal.

I work a parts counter, and certainly know the 10 speed SRAM link is not reusable. I am also paid typical retail wages -'low' pay is industry wide in bike retail-, but still care about all customers' choices because I LIKE BICYCLISTS AND I LIKE BIKES.

I've been working on my own bikes for over 30 years to my abilities- repacked an Ashtabula in 1976- butter :) but I still DON'T profess to know every nuance about bicycling parts. Just a couple of years ago i had relatively 'greenhorn' questions about bottom brackets.

10 speed systems are pretty darn new, if ya'll haven't noticed. who's going to automatically absorb what aftermarket reusable link works with what chain?

maybe sometimes bike shops parts guys and mechanics make some fun of the weight weenies, the phreds, the Magna mountain bikers, but personally, I try to guide them to the correct decisions. I do NOT know everything there is to know about bikes, however. Bring in a 5 year old suspension fork and ask for a rebuild kit, we'll try to find one for ya. even though its not very likely. ask about a six speed freewheel, and i'll look for one for you.

Hold up a wheel and demand some new spokes, wonder why we don't jump up and chop-chop go get the right size automatically, you might get a cold stare before I break out a ruler.

Demand spare parts for old 5 speed Campy gruppos, and you'll be given the "don't you know that is not currently supported by Campy and is tough to find?" look.

Its amazing how many bicyclists don't understand the basics of innertubes or tire sizing. amazing.

tapeworm--I'm sure glad I don't have to deal at the bike shop where you work---if you hold a GRUDGE over a customer for trying to justify something your shop did wrong you are definitely a poor example of good customer service.

I recently ordered a jersey from an online dealer and when it arrived it had a small "tear" in the seam at the back collar. I called the customer service lady and she said "Oh no problem--just send in back Priority mail and I'll reimburse you the postage". When the packaged arrived yesterday not only did it have the shirt in it but also 2 pair of socks and a bag of "Sports beans". Now that IS customer service!!!!
I now am a dedicated customer of that company.

Apparently you never heard the statement--

"A HAPPY customer tells TEN people.
A UN-HAPPY customer tells a HUNDRED people."

I was a Honda Power Products dealer for 15 years and there is a company who in my opinion invented the term "Customer Service". Maybe one of the reasons they a world renown company.

Methinks you are just another young person working for minimum wage at a LBS with an attitude that you know everything and the customer doesn't--working on bikes is not ROCKET SCIENCE----

P.S. and if you still eat at McDonald's as you mentioned your hurting your body as much as you are hurting your customer's feelings.

Have a nice day.

In my post, I even gave him possible solutions. Chains are meant to stay on, why would taking it on and off at any given time be a selling point? The rest of your post was kind of like how it is when my wife is talking to me and I'm watching tv or doing other things. I hear it, but really don't care about the context. I believe "rambling on" is the term.

But about that jersey... you SHOULD get it exchanged. It was torn! If the chain was twisted or broken somehow, bring it back! Your analogy stinks.

Chains are meant to stay on, why would taking it on and off at any given time be a selling point?

Because taking the chain off is the best way to clean it. :D

KMC connectors are also one use only and cost about $10 for a card of six. Hard to say if this is marketing or whether there really is a problem with reuse since it seems to be a uniform recommendation
by all the manufacturers. Have to wait for some of the high mileage folks to fill us in on their experience. FWIW KMC is made in China and works fine with Centaur shifters
on FSA cranks.

Just got my KMC X10SL a few days ago from fleabay. The instructions indicate that the MissingLink is "RE-USABLE". "Caution: Always use a new MissingLink when fitting a new chain." No duh! BTW KMC chains are made in Taiwan.

The X10SL is lighter, quieter, and much smoother than the Ultegra 6600 (10 spd)chain that came on my CFR LE (Truvativ Rouleur carbon crankset + DA 10 FD/RD and cogs). Even my old EPX bike with Ultegra cranks + 105 (9 spd) chain and RD is smoother than the crappy 6600 Ultegra chain.

Durability and reliability of the X10SL remains to be seen.

Because taking the chain off is the best way to clean it. :D

+10 ---when I was racing dirt motorcycles that was the ONLY was to properly clean and lube a chain.
IMO that also holds true for bicycle chains. When I asked my LBS owner, who has been in the business for about 22 year and is the same guy I was never able to stump with any question (even some of the bizarre ones I have seen on these boards) his reply was--

"I glad you are willing to do it that way---I have never found a better way and believe me I have looked for one!"

Chains are meant to stay on, why would taking it on and off at any given time be a selling point?

I take mine off to clean and relube once every 2 weeks or so (my homemade proprietary lube :) lasts me well longer than that).

Should I ask the shop for the $5 difference between the chain I would have bought if they had not misled me? I can't simply return it because I cut it to length before I found out that the PowerLink is not reuseable.

Well, if it was my shop, I'd apologize for the goof, hand you a Connex link and a couple of free bottles.

It may not be rocket science, but there is an unbelievable amount of info you need to have in your cranium, and sometimes you miss something.

I'm a KMC fan. That new X10SL is soooo much better than Wippermann. One of the things they say is never use a solvent on your chain. They say that is a sure way to kill it. ProLink is all you need to both clean and lube.

Sram has a good instructive video on their website demonstrating their new OG 10-speed cassette and 1070/90 chain(s). They clearly state in the video that the new powerlink is a single use connector. Bummer.

I too like removing my chain to clean it, and I agree that it's a hassle buying extra connector links and having to break the chain to install that new single-use connector. The old nine-speed SRAM chain system with their reusable connector link worked very good. Too bad I have a ten-speed cassette and rear derailleur on my road bike now or I'd just stock up on the discounted, older nine-speed SRAM chains.

tapeworm--I'm sure glad I don't have to deal at the bike shop where you work---if you hold a GRUDGE over a customer for trying to justify something your shop did wrong you are definitely a poor example of good customer service.

I recently ordered a jersey from an online dealer and when it arrived it had a small "tear" in the seam at the back collar. I called the customer service lady and she said "Oh no problem--just send in back Priority mail and I'll reimburse you the postage". When the packaged arrived yesterday not only did it have the shirt in it but also 2 pair of socks and a bag of "Sports beans". Now that IS customer service!!!!
I now am a dedicated customer of that company.

Apparently you never heard the statement--

"A HAPPY customer tells TEN people.
A UN-HAPPY customer tells a HUNDRED people."

I was a Honda Power Products dealer for 15 years and there is a company who in my opinion invented the term "Customer Service". Maybe one of the reasons they a world renown company.

Methinks you are just another young person working for minimum wage at a LBS with an attitude that you know everything and the customer doesn't--working on bikes is not ROCKET SCIENCE----

P.S. and if you still eat at McDonald's as you mentioned your hurting your body as much as you are hurting your customer's feelings.

Have a nice day.

Sorry, I have to step back and say something...

For starters, I'm willing to bet Honda Power Products had a better overal profit than your average LBS. We can only afford to do so much.

And on that level, lies so much of the issue. If that person comes back and complains, depending on the LBS you work at and how YOU expect to be compensated can result in a lot of hell for the employee.

Working on bikes isn't rocket science, no. But it is skilled labor for sure. Unless you are mechanically inclined it takes a lot of reasearch and training to do the job and do it right. Moreso still if you have to both wrench and work a sales floor. In addition to soaking up how to wrench you have to soak up every little nuance of every product.

Why do we (The average bike shop employee) remember the pains? Because it's in our human nature. But to make a long story short, bike wrenches tend to be very underappreciated by a lot of people and when you're good to us, we do what we can to be good to you. Maybe something really bad happened and you have a race tomorrow. Maybe you have to get a tune up because it slipped your mind to get it done over the winter. The people that are nice to us will have the rules bent and will get taken care of. The ones that make our lives difficult, that make our bosses breathe down our throats, when they need a favor we'll remember how they made our life difficult. EVERYONE does the same every day whether you realise it or not.

Despite what many customers think, they are not the shopperson's god as soon as they walk in the door. That goes for any industry.

Sorry, I have to step back and say something...

For starters, I'm willing to bet Honda Power Products had a better overall profit than your average LBS. We can only afford to do so much.

And on that level, lies so much of the issue. If that person comes back and complains, depending on the LBS you work at and how YOU expect to be compensated can result in a lot of hell for the employee.

Working on bikes isn't rocket science, no. But it is skilled labor for sure. Unless you are mechanically inclined it takes a lot of research and training to do the job and do it right. Mores still if you have to both wrench and work a sales floor. In addition to soaking up how to wrench you have to soak up every little nuance of every product.

Why do we (The average bike shop employee) remember the pains? Because it's in our human nature. But to make a long story short, bike wrenches tend to be very underappreciated by a lot of people and when you're good to us, we do what we can to be good to you. Maybe something really bad happened and you have a race tomorrow. Maybe you have to get a tune up because it slipped your mind to get it done over the winter. The people that are nice to us will have the rules bent and will get taken care of. The ones that make our lives difficult, that make our bosses breathe down our throats, when they need a favor we'll remember how they made our life difficult. EVERYONE does the same every day whether you realise it or not.

Despite what many customers think, they are not the shopperson's god as soon as they walk in the door. That goes for any industry.

Man you sure can cry. What makes you think your any more under-appreciated than people in other occupations? Did you ever consider what people like--waiter/waitresses --Wal-Mart-Mart cashiers--tool booth attendants--ticket takers anywhere--employees at fast food joints--sales people in any store--cops--the list could go on forever. You seem to forget the fact that if it weren't for the customer you would be at the soup kitchen.

The training you talk about where did it come from? Do LBS mechanics have any schooling, licenses or certifications--ala ASE mechanics, A&P aircraft mechanics, electrical, plumbing contractors--Microsoft Certified technicians etc or is everything you have learned just been passed down from the LBS owner and the other mechs working there---do any of the big manufactures of bikes require the LBS shop mechanics to attend a yearly mechanical update training school? Honda does.
I like to compare the amount of money in tools a automobile mechanic or Aircraft mechanic has invested compared to the amount it take to work on a bicycle!
Like I stated before--bike mechanics IS NOT rocket science. The advances in bike technology over the past 20 years is infinitesimal compared to the advances in automobiles, aerospace, computers even lawn mowers.



I always believed when I or someone else did their job as they where expected and paid to do that was when they were appreciated.

FYI -- Honda Power Products only have a 25% mark-up--tell me what the bike market mark-up is.

Way to put emotions into my post. I was just giving out the facts.

I will never argue the fact that there are a lot of under appreciated workers out there. My sister is a teacher and I am pondering following in her foorsteps. Now -there- is a thankless job... but I wouldn't be doing it for the money.

I think there are a couple of bike certs out there but what they mean out in the real world is debatable. What it boils down to is how do you help the customer? And I do the best job that I can to help that customer.

I will not debate the merits and demerits of certifications on this forum. My Experience in the computer industry shows me that Certifications for various competences can be handed to people who can barely turn on a computer.

p.s. Mark-up and profit are not the same.

The training you talk about where did it come from? Do LBS mechanics have any schooling, licenses or certifications--ala ASE mechanics, A&P aircraft mechanics, electrical, plumbing contractors--Microsoft Certified technicians etc or is everything you have learned just been passed down from the LBS owner and the other mechs working there---do any of the big manufactures of bikes require the LBS shop mechanics to attend a yearly mechanical update training school? Honda does.


I happen to have a lot of IT industry certificates - various MS certs, among which MCSE (Microsoft Certified System Engineer), various Cisco certs, many Novell certs, among which MCNE (Master Certified Novell Engineer) and CNI (Certified Novell Instructor). All have been only marginally useful for my career, and totally not useful for acquiring useful knowledge. The skills and know-how I acquired by working on various projects, be it in a workplace or home environments, have been significantly more useful.

If the situation is similar in the world of mechanical engineering, then I wouldn't knock the wrenches in a LBS just because they have no industry certificates. It's what you know, your skills, experience and attitude, that matters.

Amen on the--ATTITUDE--

If the situation is similar in the world of mechanical engineering, then I wouldn't knock the wrenches in a LBS just because they have no industry certificates. It's what you know, your skills, experience and attitude, that matters.

A mechanic is not a mechanical engineer. I agree with everything else you said :)

Im using an Ultegra chain with a Connex link [...]

Same here with the CN-6600 chain and it works great. The Connex link costs more but you get to reuse it over and over.

Man you sure can cry. What makes you think your any more under-appreciated than people in other occupations? Did you ever consider what people like--waiter/waitresses --Wal-Mart-Mart cashiers--tool booth attendants--ticket takers anywhere--employees at fast food joints--sales people in any store--cops--the list could go on forever. You seem to forget the fact that if it weren't for the customer you would be at the soup kitchen.

As a shop owner and previous shop employee, I will let you in on a few little facts you may be unaware of.

No one you mentioned except for "sales people in any store" has to deal directly with competition in the marketplace. The fact that you lump Wal*Mart employees in with law enforcement personnel is telling.


The training you talk about where did it come from? Do LBS mechanics have any schooling, licenses or certifications--ala ASE mechanics, A&P aircraft mechanics, electrical, plumbing contractors--Microsoft Certified technicians etc....

Few of those occupations have direct contact with the public and none of them have competition in the form of internet lowballers just trying to turn a buck.


...or is everything you have learned just been passed down from the LBS owner and the other mechs working there---

In small, undercapitalized shops this is often the case, but....



do any of the big manufactures of bikes require the LBS shop mechanics to attend a yearly mechanical update training school?

Yes. That's why places like BBI (http://www.bbinstitute.com/) and UBI (http://www.bikeschool.com/) exist, as well as Trek University. Shops that foot the bill for that kind of training aren't likely to work for free...hence less flexibility in repair prices.


Honda does.

That's great. They can afford to! Honda is very good at protecting their B&M stores. You don't often see their stuff "on closeout" at an online discounter.


I like to compare the amount of money in tools a automobile mechanic or Aircraft mechanic has invested compared to the amount it take to work on a bicycle!

My father was a mechanic for Delta from 1956 to 1985. I am quite familiar with his tools. Airplane tools are generally very specific, and many of the really expensive ones are owned by the airline. I have all his tools in my garage. There are many, many more tools required to run a full service shop. Every time a new part comes out, you can bet your butt there's a new tool for it. You should see all the tools required to service suspension forks. My brother in law was, until his recent retirement, a mechanic at a VW dealership in Atlanta. His tool box is larger than my dads, but the dealership buys the specific tools. I don't make my mechanics buy their own tools. It's just easier that way when there are so many.


Like I stated before--bike mechanics IS NOT rocket science. The advances in bike technology over the past 20 years is infinitesimal compared to the advances in automobiles, aerospace, computers even lawn mowers.

I'll give you aerospace. One would hope so with all those billions spent. Cars? Hardware hasn't changed as much as the electronica. Computers? Hugely market driven with vast profits. That leaves lawn mowers. It makes me laugh to say this, but that's a joke, right? I mean, the guy down at the local "Factory Authorized" Ariens/Honda/Toro/Snapper repair shop can't figure out how to true his wheels or adjust his derailleurs! It may not be Rocket Science, but there are a lot of ways to screw it up that could kill you if you do it wrong. No MCSE has ever died because a disk partition failed!



FYI -- Honda Power Products only have a 25% mark-up--

You're forgetting about the extemely lucrative spare parts market! Those items can have up to a 500% markup.


tell me what the bike market mark-up is.

Less than you'd imagine. We don't get to overinflate parts prices to make up the differences. Ever eat out? Talk about mark-up! Still eat out dontcha? I spite of the mark-up, restaurants generally have poor margins because of the high fixed costs.

Bike shops run on about a 5% net. Honda's isn't much better (http://finance.google.com/finance?q=BOM:522064), but you're talking about a much larger scale. I'll bet their CEO isn't going without pay to keep his business afloat like a few shop owners I know. Wal*Mart only has 2% net, but their profits are about $20,000 per second!

We don't make 2 seconds of Wal*Mart profits a year.

Using Honda Power Products is not the best example. As of a few years ago Honda would pay the floor plan for the products sitting at their dealerships so the dealer has NO exposure and Honda assures a uniform high price accross their dealer body.

Before I switched to Bikes I was a power tech for a Honda Dealer(Amoung many others), i was there during the "Clara Johnson test" days. The number of tools needed to work on bikes is greater than the number needed to work on a lawn mower even including riding mowers and tractors, and two stroke equipment. Our Phil spoke cutter cost WAY more than anything I bought for power equipment including my welding equipment.
Working on power equipment is not rocket science either, but there are lots of people that cannot change an air filter.

The "Honda has yearly certification" bit is a laugh. I have a folder full of those certifications, Honda, Toro, Snapper, Gravely, Stihl, Echo, RedMax, Ariens, Jacobsen, Homelite, Briggs, Kohler, Tecumseh, and many others. 95% of getting one is sitting thru a propaganda meeting on all the new product, having a catered hotel lunch, and then 5% might be about the new tech for the year. I remember one actually had the guy telling how to fix a carb with tag wire(Which worked, but was not the right way to do it :0)

All of these jobs, " waiter/waitresses --Wal-Mart-Mart cashiers--tool booth attendants--ticket takers anywhere--employees at fast food joints--sales people in any store", take very little training, often as little as a day. If bike mechanics were learned so quickly, there would not be over a hundred peope viewing the 23,000+ threads in the mechanics forum right now.