Advocacy & Safety - What did I do wrong?

I am riding home at night from the supermarket. I am on back streets in a suburban neighborhood. The cross street I am on is one lane in each direction demarcated down the center with a very faded (practically invisible) stripe of red, white and green (it's an Italian neighborhood). The cross street I am travelling on is about 1/10th of a mile long and has an occasional parked car. The speed limit, though not posted- so far as I recall- cannot be more than 20 or 25 mph. The road is very lightly travelled by primarily local traffic. My bike is lit with a Cat Eye LT1000 rear light, a handlebar mounted front light and a helmet light. I am wearing a reflectorized bright orange outer layer. I have two large bags of groceries in my milk crate and am riding well left of the center of the lane. I am closer to the center of the road than the right side of the lane. I am behaving predictably and riding what is often referred to in A & S as "vehicularly". As I am about 200' from the intersection at the end of the road I hear what sounds like a pick up truck coming up the road behind me. I can tell the driver may be exceeding the speed limit as the truck is approaching rather rapidly.

My normal response would be to move to the right and let this bozo get to the stop sign a fraction before I do and let him go on his merry way. But I decide I will test the theory of maintaining a "centerish lane position" and, in fact, I moved ever so slightly left of where I was and slightly increased my speed from perhaps 14 mph to about 16mph. His response was to increase his speed and he got right up behind me about 40 feet before the intersection and then whipped close by me (about a foot off my left) and right hooked me to the stop sign. I was stopped about 2" from his passenger door face to face with his surly looking passenger. I was so ticked off I almost spit at the window right at him. Avoiding the confrontation I blank stared him and let him go.

At this point in my life I prefer to avoid these situations. Years of experience on the bike said move well to the right and let him get to the stop sign literally a fraction of a second before me. If I'm understanding VC theory I was in a lane controlling position.

What did I do wrong and why did this driver not behave as theorized?

You were just exposed to wrongful and typical road ownership car/bike endangerment by some JAM.

You experience exposes the fallacy inherent in vehicular cycling as biking panacea.

I'd check with John Forester, VC superstar, and his buddies at the american dream coalition for the anwser. www.americandreamcoalition.org

You did nothing wrong. Not one single thing.

What happened was you met stupid people. There are some around, but their numbers are relatively few when compared to the number of people who act in a reasonably intelligent manner, most of the time.

Stupid people tend to live a life of misery, caused by themselves, and feel this misery must be projected onto others at every opportunity.

If you thought he might try to pass, issuing a stop signal would have been helpful. If you had enough room to let him go by before the stop sign, then letting him go by if you sensed some aggressiveness would have been an ok choice as well. Sounds like you don't use a mirror. Using a mirror might have clued you in as to the driver's intentions and allowed you to handle the situation better.

It wasn't you that did something wrong, it was the driver of the pickup truck.

You didn't follow your instincts. You have them for a reason. Use 'em.

Nice edit Bek,

Now I am not a VC expert. I just know what I have read in this forum. So this may be wrong, but this is my understanding.

Riding VC does not equal acting as a moving roadblock. Sure a "lane controlling position" is a good thing in certain respects. By being out in the lane you were more in the line of sight of the truck driver, and thus helped him notice you. But that doesn't mean you cannot move aside to let him pass. In fact I would generally surmise it is best to move aside and let them pass when you can. Unless it is unsafe to move right for some reason.

I am sure I will now get railed by everyone but oh well. It always leads to some more A&S entertainment.

-D

i think the rider was approaching a stop sign. he sounds like he was going to be first at the stop, and the JAM accelerated to close pass the rider in an agressive matter.

Haven't you ever done exactly as the rider described the situation? I know I have. Vehicular training leads a bicyclist to try and control the lane, -keep their vehicular parity- approaching a stop or intersection where it is likely the bike will be there first ahead of traffic behind them. this limits the possibility of a right hook at the intersection.

some drivers get it, some drivers hate it. I get varied responses to controlling the lane approaching a stop or traffic signal.

no, you didn't do anything wrong. Guy was a jerk. happens a lot!

....My normal response would be to move to the right and let this bozo get to the stop sign a fraction before I do and let him go on his merry way....

....What did I do wrong and why did this driver not behave as theorized?

The only mistake I see is suggesting that any particular individual's behavior can be predicted by theory. There is nothing wrong with the theory. Riding left makes you visible. Even when people are in a hurry, sometimes it's not a bad idea to encourage them not to make an unsafe or inconsiderate pass.

Generally speaking, the same rules that apply for dealing with dogs also apply for drivers. Act predictably. Keep your composure and don't show fear -- otherwise they will become more aggressive.

Being on the roads is a process of constant negotiation. If you encounter a jerk, laws of physics apply so use your noggin. Having said that, I don't like getting hooked or encouraging drivers to think it's OK to gun by and turn in front of me, so I probably would have done the same thing you did.

As soon as you used the words "pickup truck" I was pretty sure I knew what the rest of the story was going to be. The only thing you did wrong was not follow your initial instincts.

You didn't do anything wrong. You were coming up to a stop sign and were going to stop where you should. You met the guy that always writes letters to the editor about cyclists not being where they are supposed to be on the road and not stopping at stop signs.

I think that you forgot that wether you were right or wrong, in a collision between a cyclist and a pick-up truck, the cyclist is going to loose. Trust your instincts. Good job holding your temper.

I would say that you did nothing wrong.

Had you moved right to allow the motorist to pass without having to pay any attention to you, you would have increased your chances of being right hooked at the intersection, or being placed in a position where you are invisible to cross traffic. What you did was the safest thing for you - what the motorist did was stupid, but not unusual.

BTW, My daughter lives near the corner of California and Bridge sts, Methinks you might be neighbors!

I am riding home at night from the supermarket. I am on back streets in a suburban neighborhood. The cross street I am on is one lane in each direction demarcated down the center with a very faded (practically invisible) stripe of red, white and green (it's an Italian neighborhood).


...What did I do wrong and why did this driver not behave as theorized?

Gee buzzman, we're just about neighbors. Adams street in Newton, right near Our Ladies church on Washington street, right? I've had a few experiences on Adams street myself, similar to your own.

You did nothing wrong. As bh already stated, you did a fine job of holding your emotions in check. Regretfully, there are certain areas where these fine examples of bad DNA tend to congregate. The Nonantum section of Newton, (a.k.a. "The Lake") is just one of those areas. There are a few sleazy beer joints in the area, and you're pickup truck bozos were probably going to one, or just coming from one. (Or maybe they had just left Marty's Liquors on Wash. street.) Harassing a bicyclist probably gave them bragging rights for the evening.

Gee buzzman, we're just about neighbors. Adams street in Newton, right near Our Ladies church on Washington street, right? I've had a few experiences on Adams street myself, similar to your own.

You did nothing wrong. As bh already stated, you did a fine job of holding your emotions in check. Regretfully, there are certain areas where these fine examples of bad DNA tend to congregate. The Nonantum section of Newton, (a.k.a. "The Lake") is just one of those areas. There are a few sleazy beer joints in the area, and you're pickup truck bozos were probably going to one, or just coming from one. (Or maybe they had just left Marty's Liquors on Wash. street.) Harassing a bicyclist probably gave them bragging rights for the evening.

DA' LAKE!!!! :D You know it! You pegged it- to a tee and you know just what kind of driver I'm talking about here too! Here's another thread (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=265768)about the same street and a pick up truck- pleasanter outcome, however, that you may get a kick out of if you didn't see it before.


If you thought he might try to pass, issuing a stop signal would have been helpful. If you had enough room to let him go by before the stop sign, then letting him go by if you sensed some aggressiveness would have been an ok choice as well. Sounds like you don't use a mirror. Using a mirror might have clued you in as to the driver's intentions and allowed you to handle the situation better.

All of what you say is good advice joejack but perhaps my post was not a clear enough description.

#1- We were approaching a stop sign. He could see it. I could see it. We both knew I had to stop. A hand signal would have been not only redundant but dangerous to do for several reasons- not the least being I'm riding on a bumpy, icy street with two large bags of groceries in my milk crate.

#2- Absolutely right- when I sense aggressiveness in a driver I absolutely do move right and let them go. I deliberately chose to hold the lane position because my thought really was about BF's and this constant drumbeat of the centerish lane position and this idea of cyclists who move out of the way of automobiles having some kind of inferiority complex. I don't have an inferiority complex in that regard nor do I particularly give in to intimidation or what has been described as "phobia". I simply move to the right to avoid confrontations like this one because I find them repugnant and they take the joy out of cycling.

#3- I agree that a mirror can be useful in these situations and have used them in the past. However, the sound of the engine, the change in RPM's, the sound of the oversized tires on the pavement all indicated exactly the kind of driver Trackhub so accurately describes. I knew exactly what I was in for and didn't need a mirror for it.

By the way, I failed to mention but I think you can guess, the truck ended up somewhat diagonally across the lane in order to beat me to the stop sign.

And I think I did do something wrong- it was to not move out of the way of truck. I knew better and took a chance. It was a gamble I thought I could handle (and I could) but a little bit of playing chicken, which is not a good idea.

I deliberately chose to hold the lane position because my thought really was about BF's and this constant drumbeat of the centerish lane position and this idea of cyclists who move out of the way of automobiles having some kind of inferiority complex.
Derath and joejack already covered it pretty well, but here's my take.

The above is not a good reason to not move aside. I can't speak for others, but my constant drumbeat about the centerish lane position is:


Use it when faster same-direction traffic is not present, AND
Even when faster same-direction traffic is present but it is not safe or not reasonable to move aside (lane is too narrow, approaching an intersection, etc.).


If there is faster traffic behind and it is safe and reasonable to move aside, you should. If you don't, that doesn't justify what he did, but it could explain why he got frustrated.

You were approaching a stop sign, okay. But how far were you from it? Was there enough distance/time to move aside, let him pass, then get behind him, without you having to slow down? If so, then it would have been reasonable to let him pass. If not, then you should not have even considered moving aside.

he anwsered those questions, armchair rider. He WAS approaching an intersection. just like you've reiterated he should have been doing, which he was.

sometimes, oh great helemt head, a vehicular cyclists 'message' just doesn't clear some drivers' windshields.

the OP's scenario describes the fallacies inherent in predicating vehicular riding as traffic panacea.

Most (all) of us that actually ride regularily in traffic understand this.

how helmet head does not is pretty much shrouded mystery, but I'll lay odds on infrequent riding and his neophyte riding status.

No offense, helemt head, but you haven't got much street cred with the crusty old asphalt dawgs, pup. Just proud, vacuous talk about driving that armchair, and your RV....

Again, the OP's scenario describes the fallacies inherent in predicating vehicular riding as traffic panacea.

All of what you say is good advice joejack but perhaps my post was not a clear enough description.

#1- We were approaching a stop sign. He could see it. I could see it. We both knew I had to stop. A hand signal would have been not only redundant but dangerous to do for several reasons- not the least being I'm riding on a bumpy, icy street with two large bags of groceries in my milk crate.

#2- Absolutely right- when I sense aggressiveness in a driver I absolutely do move right and let them go. I deliberately chose to hold the lane position because my thought really was about BF's and this constant drumbeat of the centerish lane position and this idea of cyclists who move out of the way of automobiles having some kind of inferiority complex. I don't have an inferiority complex in that regard nor do I particularly give in to intimidation or what has been described as "phobia". I simply move to the right to avoid confrontations like this one because I find them repugnant and they take the joy out of cycling.

#3- I agree that a mirror can be useful in these situations and have used them in the past. However, the sound of the engine, the change in RPM's, the sound of the oversized tires on the pavement all indicated exactly the kind of driver Trackhub so accurately describes. I knew exactly what I was in for and didn't need a mirror for it.

By the way, I failed to mention but I think you can guess, the truck ended up somewhat diagonally across the lane in order to beat me to the stop sign.

And I think I did do something wrong- it was to not move out of the way of truck. I knew better and took a chance. It was a gamble I thought I could handle (and I could) but a little bit of playing chicken, which is not a good idea.

Moving right when there is room to let faster same direction traffic by is how traffic is supposed to work (assuming there is room to move right such that faster traffic does not need to change lanes to pass). If you were 50 feet from the stop sign and moving at more than walking speed, it makes sense to hold your line. I suggested issuing a stop signal (even though it seems awfully redundant) because I encounter similar situations on a weekly basis going to/from work. Motorists see me slowing for a stop sign and realize that if they just run the stop sign, they can pass me quicker. I'm not going to let them cause a collision with their impatience so I issue stop signals to let them know not to try the pass. If I see that they are ignoring my signal, I do what's best for me and slow down before the stop line and move right if necessary to let them back into the proper lane as soon as possible. If they are going to be that stupid, I'd rather them be in front of me and not heading towards oncoming traffic. If this is seen by this one driver as me being inferior then so what. The other 99.9% who act appropriately are all that I care about.

With ice on the roads, I realize that it's tougher to take your hands off the bars and to watch behind you, even if you had a mirror. Again though, if you sensed aggressiveness and were not about to stop at the intersection, slowing down earlier and moving right (assuming there was space) makes sense. A mirror can help you detect just how close the motorist is and let you decide if you only need to brake or if you need to move right as well. I certainly can't do this by hearing alone but with a mirror it's easy. I've been in a similar situation many times, sometimes with clean dry pavement, other times with a few inches of snow on the ground.

I agree that playing chicken was not an appropriate action but this has nothing to do with using a centerish lane controlling position in normal riding.

If you had moved to the right, the driver would have likely buzzed you dangerously and he still would have right hooked you. The only difference is that you would have had no escape route. Moving to the left helps keep you safe from negligent right hooks and gives you an escape route from the intentional ones.

so, i'm confused. should the op have moved right, or left?

Doesn't matter, the cager likely would have harassed him regardless of lane position.

the fallacies inherent in lane position as traffic panacea are very evident in this thread. more like 'placebo' against dangerous, manevolent drivers.

society needs reeducation to get drivers, en masse, to respect cyclists, regardless of lane position.

all this internet chestbeating about how positioning yourself this way or that to get the cars to respect you is fantastical folly in blatant denial of real world cycling conditions.

This is not a critique of the original poster. He felt using a centered position to control the lane approaching the intersection was the right thing to do (and the chestbeaters concur) but the driver did not.

so, i'm confused. should the op have moved right, or left?

Doesn't matter, the cager likely would have harassed him regardless of lane position.

the fallacies inherent in lane position as traffic panacea are very evident in this thread. more like 'placebo' against dangerous, manevolent drivers. . . .
A left-side-of-lane position wasn't a placebo, it gave the OP room to escape. Good lane position doesn't solve all problems, but it helps a lot.

You didn't do anything wrong. You were coming up to a stop sign and were going to stop where you should. You met the guy that always writes letters to the editor about cyclists not being where they are supposed to be on the road and not stopping at stop signs.
This statement assumes the driver know how to read and write!:D

I think that you forgot that wether you were right or wrong, in a collision between a cyclist and a pick-up truck, the cyclist is going to loose. Trust your instincts. Good job holding your temper.

truth. There is a point at which you must stop trying to be right, and start trying to be safe.

Derath and joejack already covered it pretty well, but here's my take.

The above is not a good reason to not move aside. I can't speak for others, but my constant drumbeat about the centerish lane position is:


Use it when faster same-direction traffic is not present, AND
Even when faster same-direction traffic is present but it is not safe or not reasonable to move aside (lane is too narrow, approaching an intersection, etc.).


If there is faster traffic behind and it is safe and reasonable to move aside, you should. If you don't, that doesn't justify what he did, but it could explain why he got frustrated.

You were approaching a stop sign, okay. But how far were you from it? Was there enough distance/time to move aside, let him pass, then get behind him, without you having to slow down? If so, then it would have been reasonable to let him pass. If not, then you should not have even considered moving aside.

I was 40' from the intersection when the truck finally caught up to me. I was going to go straight across at the intersection (actually a little bit of a left diagonal) the truck intended to go right. Had I pulled to the right the truck would then had to have crossed in front of me anyway to make this right and I would have been crowded to the curb in order for him to do so. A reasonable, rational driver under these circumstances:

1. Would not have sped up when they saw me up ahead.

2. Would not have attempted to pass me with 40' of road before an intersection.

3. Would not have right hooked me and stopped with their vehicle in a diagonal across the lane.


...If not, then you should not have even considered moving aside.

Since the given circumstances justified my not moving aside- in my opinion- I should not then have considered moving aside, which is exactly what I did and you see the result- an unnecessary (IMO) and potentially dangerous confrontation with a motorist.

But my own intuition and experience were telling me screw the rules and the given circumstances and so I think that, ultimately, I would have been better off slowing down, moving to the right and letting the bozo beat me to the intersection.

I feel there are enough of these situations that occur for me on a regular basis that they render moot much of the VC purist advice that clog these threads and inhibit any open and real practical dialogue about how to interact with all drivers and all circumstances not just the ones in which everyone behaves predictably.

So now you are invited to discuss this incident further here or to discuss what happened when I tried the opposite tactic in a very similar situation in a sister thread titled "A Tale of Two Stop Signs." (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=3840003#post3840003)

"Put the roof ta'!"

What the heck did he say? I've been trying to figure it out all night.

You know, I've had things like that yelled at me quite a bit. I have no idea what most of it means. The "F word" always comes across loud and clear though. Funny how that works. I had once had one yell at me something like this: "Put ya kablah on the foo ba ba!" Again, this was drunken pickup truck yelling. Really, I have no idea what he said.

It's not only yahoos in pickup trucks "down da lake". It's also young males in juiced up cars, and adult men in their forties and fifties in 60's muscle cars, out cruisin around "da lake" on warm summer nights. The older dudes are generally harmless though. Loud pipes, but other than that generally harmless. Needless to say, Friday and Saturday nights are the most volatile.

You know, I've had things like that yelled at me quite a bit. I have no idea what most of it means. The "F word" always comes across loud and clear though. Funny how that works. I had once had one yell at me something like this: "Put ya kablah on the foo ba ba!" Again, this was drunken pickup truck yelling. Really, I have no idea what he said.

It's not only yahoos in pickup trucks "down da lake". It's also young males in juiced up cars, and adult men in their forties and fifties in 60's muscle cars, out cruisin around "da lake" on warm summer nights. The older dudes are generally harmless though. Loud pipes, but other than that generally harmless. Needless to say, Friday and Saturday nights are the most volatile.


I just got back from a Wayland/Concord road ride and who do I see turning onto Lincoln Street but the same guy. Now instead of being the Fred in the reflectorized tee-shirt and the grocery bags in the milk crate on the big old commuter with studded snow tires I am masquerading as an alpha-dog, steely eyed, lycra-spandex clad "serious cyclist". I've turned off Craft just ahead of him and get up out of the saddle and pound down Lincoln Street at about 23 mph holding the center of the road so that I cannot be passed. I even do as joejack suggested and signal a "turning left/slow down" hand signal as I approach the stop sign. Sure enough he complies exactly as predicted and just pulls up slowly behind me. I go across to the street on the opposite side of the intersecting road and he follows, doesn't pass and turns into his driveway a few hundred feet down the road.

As Trackhub suggests these are just local guys most of whom are firefighters, cops, contractors or tradesmen of some kind and are, for the most part, harmless and if you can't take their grief once in a while you're a bit of a wuss. But when these guys have knocked back a few you've got to watch out for them on the road.

My point in these threads is that no one way of riding serves all of us all of the time. And there's nothing wrong with moving out of the way of a driver that you feel might grow agitated, frustrated or become downright dangerous even if you have the law and right on your side.

If the only kind of riding that I did was like today I might be inclined to wonder why people want bike paths or bike lanes and why they move out of the way of automobiles rather than maintain their position on the road. And if the only kind of riding I did was like when I ride to the market and back I'd wonder why there weren't more bike paths and bike lanes and accomodations for cyclists.

And I'm only too willing to admit mistakes and that I definitely do not have all the answers. Today I moved right when I should have held the lane on one stretch and found myself headed into a morass of ice and road debris that wouldn't have caused me a second thought when riding with 26x1.9" studded snows but on 700x23c road wheels was not the easiest of maneuvers.


BTW- Trackhub- we'll have to track down Newbojeff and FMRBMXER and do a Boston BF ride some time soon.

My point in these threads is that no one way of riding serves all of us all of the time. And there's nothing wrong with moving out of the way of a driver that you feel might grow agitated, frustrated or become downright dangerous even if you have the law and right on your side.

Who has argued against moving out of the way (when there is room) of an agitated motorist? Based on your story, it sounds like well before the stop sign you had realized he was trying to pass (you had time to notice your speed and accelerate towards the stop sign which doesn't happen instantaneously). Instead of cutting your losses, you tried to race towards the stop sign and got beat by the truck driver. You somehow confuse this story as being a point about why lane positioning doesn't work. This story has nothing to do with lane positioning. It's a story that makes a case for about defensive driving and how when you encounter an aggressive driver, the best tactic is to do what you can to avoid provoking them. You did the opposite but learned from it. Good job :)

bull, joejack. this post is about lane positioning, and the fallacies inherent in lane positioning as panacea for traffic ills.

your little disarming spiel, joe, is in direct opposition to the lane grabbing placebo you ordinarily foist on the forum otherwise. so now, in the face of a possible pass, even though an intersection is approaching, a cyclist is supposed to move right to allow a car to right hook them?

WHICH IS IT, Joe? move right before intersections, or control the lane? you can't have it both ways. HH describes how he wouldn't even think of moving over approaching an intersection like the OP describes the scenario playing out....

which tactic is it, joe? yield approaching a potential right hook as you move towards an intersection, or control the lane?

bull, joejack. this post is about lane positioning, and the fallacies inherent in lane positioning as panacea for traffic ills.

your little disarming spiel, joe, is in direct opposition to the lane grabbing placebo you ordinarily foist on the forum otherwise. so now, in the face of a possible pass, even though an intersection is approaching, a cyclist is supposed to move right to allow a car to right hook them?

WHICH IS IT, Joe? move right before intersections, or control the lane? you can't have it both ways. HH describes how he wouldn't even think of moving over approaching an intersection like the OP describes the scenario playing out....

which tactic is it, joe? yield approaching a potential right hook as you move towards an intersection, or control the lane?

Bek, if you go back and reread the original post, the intersection they were approaching was a stop sign. Unless the cyclist were to run the stop sign and assume the motorist was going straight when they really were turning right, there is no chance of a right hook even if the cyclist and motorist arrive at the same time (of course, I'm speaking about one cyclist and one motorist at an intersection which is how the situation was described). The cyclist had time to react to seeing the motorist attempt a pass and was able to increase his speed to try and beat the motorist to the stop sign. Both drivers here were playing a silly game. If the cyclist had as much time as he is saying he had, why not just move over and let the aggressive driver go on by? Even if he was clearly going to get there first, why play the stupid game and try to force someone out of a space that they've already committed to trying to take? Using a centerish lane position helps mitigate the chance that someone will pull a boneheaded stunt like a pass right before a stop sign but NO ONE (except you in your childish rants) has ever tried to say that it's supposed to work 100% of the time.

Who has argued against moving out of the way (when there is room) of an agitated motorist? Based on your story, it sounds like well before the stop sign you had realized he was trying to pass (you had time to notice your speed and accelerate towards the stop sign which doesn't happen instantaneously). Instead of cutting your losses, you tried to race towards the stop sign and got beat by the truck driver. You somehow confuse this story as being a point about why lane positioning doesn't work. This story has nothing to do with lane positioning. It's a story that makes a case for about defensive driving and how when you encounter an aggressive driver, the best tactic is to do what you can to avoid provoking them. You did the opposite but learned from it. Good job :)

You have completely misread my OP. I did not in anyway "try to race towards the stop sign" as I said in that post as I was loaded down with two bags of groceries. I may have slightly increased my pace to guarantee I would indeed get to the stop sign well before the approaching motorist but he chose to accelerate well above the speed limit, ride right up my a** and then cut around me to race me to the stop sign not the opposite as you imagine.

You seem to be suggesting what many of us have said in these forums before that sometimes the thing to do is not to provoke certain aggressive drivers and in that I agree with you completely. If you feel that by holding my position in the lane as I approached the intersection, which I had established long before the approaching motorist was even on the street, was not in this case the best option I would also wholeheartedly agree.

Given that aggressive driving is now cited as statistically involved in an estimated 2/3's of all automobile accidents cyclists must be prepared at any time to "move out of the way" of an agitated motorist.

Bek, if you go back and reread the original post, the intersection they were approaching was a stop sign. Unless the cyclist were to run the stop sign and assume the motorist was going straight when they really were turning right, there is no chance of a right hook even if the cyclist and motorist arrive at the same time (of course, I'm speaking about one cyclist and one motorist at an intersection which is how the situation was described). The cyclist had time to react to seeing the motorist attempt a pass and was able to increase his speed to try and beat the motorist to the stop sign. Both drivers here were playing a silly game. If the cyclist had as much time as he is saying he had, why not just move over and let the aggressive driver go on by? Even if he was clearly going to get there first, why play the stupid game and try to force someone out of a space that they've already committed to trying to take? Using a centerish lane position helps mitigate the chance that someone will pull a boneheaded stunt like a pass right before a stop sign but NO ONE (except you in your childish rants) has ever tried to say that it's supposed to work 100% of the time.


Sorry, I posted my above response as you were posting this and see now how much you have entirely misread my post and how you have imagined a scenario that supports your argument but is inaccurate.

#1. The speed limit on the street is: 20-25mph max. My speed 14-16 mph. The truck's speed 35-40.

#2. I had plenty of time to reach the intersection. Stop at the stop sign and go diagonally left across the intersecting road had the truck been observing the speed limit. Even with his excessive speed we still reached the intersection at roughly the same time.

#3. As he came around me and began to right hook me I slowed down and took an evasive move to the right. I did not, as implied in your post, try to race him to the stop sign!

I'm astounded that a fellow cyclist is equating my holding my lane position as a "silly game". I agree a little foolhardy to test out some of the theories and techniques I so frequently see espoused here in A&S but hardly a "silly game" on my part.

Glad you didn't get tagged, Buzz, you didn't do anything wrong. This just goes to show that lane positioning isn't a cure for stupid. ;)

Glad you didn't get tagged, Buzz, you didn't do anything wrong. This just goes to show that lane positioning isn't a cure for stupid. ;)

thanks for seeing what I thought was a simple point, and, hopefully, worth making. :rolleyes:

//What did I do wrong and why did this driver not behave as theorized?
You chose to live in PRM.

joejacks just trying to backpedal from the insistent, overwhelming 'take the lane and you will be golden' fallacies that get bandied about in A&S ALL TOO OFTEN.

You chose to live in PRM.


:lol: At least I'm not still living in PRC!- I actually got arrested there for walking a dog without a leash but that's another story.

Sorry, I posted my above response as you were posting this and see now how much you have entirely misread my post and how you have imagined a scenario that supports your argument but is inaccurate.

#1. The speed limit on the street is: 20-25mph max. My speed 14-16 mph. The truck's speed 35-40.

#2. I had plenty of time to reach the intersection. Stop at the stop sign and go diagonally left across the intersecting road had the truck been observing the speed limit. Even with his excessive speed we still reached the intersection at roughly the same time.

#3. As he came around me and began to right hook me I slowed down and took an evasive move to the right. I did not, as implied in your post, try to race him to the stop sign!

I'm astounded that a fellow cyclist is equating my holding my lane position as a "silly game". I agree a little foolhardy to test out some of the theories and techniques I so frequently see espoused here in A&S but hardly a "silly game" on my part.

If you had not mentioned increasing your speed, I would not have made my "silly game" comment. The way I read what you described was similar to what some motorists do when someone is trying to pass them. They speed up to make it more difficult. You knew the guy was going to try and pass according to your story. Why not signal to him to not pass (but prepare for him to ignore it) or just let him go by slowing a bit and/or moving right since you had space to do so? You seem to ignore the fact that you realized the driver was pulling a boneheaded move even with your lane controlling position yet you did nothing more to try and stop him (except speed up).

Look, it's not that you did anything wrong so much as you could have done more to make the situation safer. That's all I've been getting at. Not issuing a signal and speeding up to try and beat a motorist who's grossly exceeding the speed limit is not a defensive manuever.

Note to self...never bluff a pick-up driver with lane positioning.

Don't hate on pick up trucks. I'm a pick up truck driver for the sole reason that I can bring my bike places with me no problem and get around in the deep snow. Don't really drive the damn thing though. I've seen how cyclist cower towards me approaching figuring I'm some crazy yokal.

I just got back from a Wayland/Concord road ride and who do I see turning onto Lincoln Street but the same guy. Now instead of being the Fred in the reflectorized tee-shirt and the grocery bags in the milk crate on the big old commuter with studded snow tires I am masquerading as an alpha-dog, steely eyed, lycra-spandex clad "serious cyclist". I've turned off Craft just ahead of him and get up out of the saddle and pound down Lincoln Street at about 23 mph holding the center of the road so that I cannot be passed. I even do as joejack suggested and signal a "turning left/slow down" hand signal as I approach the stop sign. Sure enough he complies exactly as predicted and just pulls up slowly behind me. I go across to the street on the opposite side of the intersecting road and he follows, doesn't pass and turns into his driveway a few hundred feet down the road.

Maybe he realized he did something wrong before and wised up. He might have had a what did I do wrong discussion with himself.

If you had not mentioned increasing your speed, I would not have made my "silly game" comment. The way I read what you described was similar to what some motorists do when someone is trying to pass them. They speed up to make it more difficult. You knew the guy was going to try and pass according to your story. Why not signal to him to not pass (but prepare for him to ignore it) or just let him go by slowing a bit and/or moving right since you had space to do so? You seem to ignore the fact that you realized the driver was pulling a boneheaded move even with your lane controlling position yet you did nothing more to try and stop him (except speed up).

Look, it's not that you did anything wrong so much as you could have done more to make the situation safer. That's all I've been getting at. Not issuing a signal and speeding up to try and beat a motorist who's grossly exceeding the speed limit is not a defensive manuever.


I'll try one more time.

When I heard the truck behind me I looked back and he was a 2-300 feet behind me and I moved a little more to the left as I was already pretty close to the center of the road- it's a narrow road. I also at that time slightly increased my speed and after I made those two adjustments that's when he really began to speed up. Despite the fact that I could tell he was a bozo from the way he was driving I really did not think he would attempt to pass me because we were so close to the end of the road. When he chose to pass me I moved right and slowed down very rapidly to avoid hitting him when he right hooked to the stop sign. I was prepared to make an evasive maneuver but, again, it was a pretty wild move on his part to pass me where he did and I didn't think he was that crazy.:eek:

and bryanp I do not hate on pick up trucks but must admit I am cautious around some of them.

I drive a pickup...and don't have a problem admiting that I'm a crazy yokel - that don't mean I feel the urge to drive like one. ;)

I'll try one more time.

When I heard the truck behind me I looked back and he was a 2-300 feet behind me and I moved a little more to the left as I was already pretty close to the center of the road- it's a narrow road. I also at that time slightly increased my speed and after I made those two adjustments that's when he really began to speed up. Despite the fact that I could tell he was a bozo from the way he was driving I really did not think he would attempt to pass me because we were so close to the end of the road. When he chose to pass me I moved right and slowed down very rapidly to avoid hitting him when he right hooked to the stop sign. I was prepared to make an evasive maneuver but, again, it was a pretty wild move on his part to pass me where he did and I didn't think he was that crazy.:eek:

and bryanp I do not hate on pick up trucks but must admit I am cautious around some of them.

Sounds like no matter what you did (stayed left or moved right) this guy would have hooked you. By staying left, you gave yourself some room to evade his antics. Again, good job :) I've found a mirror invaluable in situations such as these for tipping me off that someone is doing something completely ridiculous such as the stunt this guy pulled. Being able to issue a slow signal even a second sooner and having that extra time to prepare for evasive action is a huge help for dealing with impatient drivers, especially when I don't want to fully take my eyes off the road in front of me (such as when riding on poor pavement or snow and ice).

which one is it joe, claim the lane or yield to hookers?

joe, you're doing a remarkable job backpedaling from the fallacy that lane position is a traffic cyclists' panacea.

Buzzman, keep on keeping on. traffic is loaded with whacks that don't respect bikes regardless of lane position.

which one is it joe, claim the lane or yield to hookers?

joe, you're doing a remarkable job backpedaling from the fallacy that lane position is a traffic cyclists' panacea.

Buzzman, keep on keeping on. traffic is loaded with whacks that don't respect bikes regardless of lane position.

I've already answered your question. Claim the lane, signal your intentions (especially if they appear to be aggressive), and be prepared for someone to be an idiot (which a mirror can help you discern earlier than with hearing alone). The only back pedalling that would need to be done on this thread is if you suggested that bike lanes would have somehow solved all of Buzzman's problems with this driver.

How would a bike lane have changed the situation here, Bek? You've got a lot more experience riding in them than I do so you should have no problems answering this.

In similar road situations I merge from center lane to left lane bias and prior to merge use left turn and/or slow signal, glance over shoulder. If an agressive right turner, they will often pass on my right and turn.

If I just stay in center and don't communicate in any other way, it may further provoke an already aggitated driver, and if it does because I didn't communicate anything, I laugh it off as while the behavior is agressive, loud, etc. its not really dangerous, they saw me and acted like the idiots I picked them out to be.

Al

Oftentimes speeding up and moving left (like you did) will help a driver realize that there will not be enough room for them to safely pass you. I have heard (and watched) revving vehicles back off in this situation. You just have to be prepared to protect yourself once it is clear that they intend to get there first... and you were.

I agree that a hand signal / look back and also use of a mirror can help.

How would a bike lane have changed the situation here, Bek? You've got a lot more experience riding in them than I do so you should have no problems answering this.

Sometimes the answer is not another bike lane... such as on my neighborhood 25MPH residential streets. Sometimes the answer is beating the idiot driver with a 2X4 across the head and making sure they know the darn rules of the road.

Or perhaps we should simply start signaling "I am going straight, idiot..." with a flare right across their hood. :eek:

I know I have been nearly right hooked while riding well in the left tire track on a typical residental street... and that was by a motorist that went all the way into the opposite lane so he could eventually wait to make a RIGHT turn! (I was going straight BTW, and rolled up to the red stop light)