Living Car Free - How many people purchase carbon offsets?

Carbon offsets?

"A carbon offset is a service that reduces the net greenhouse gas ("carbon") emissions of a party, by reducing the greenhouse gas emissions—or increasing the carbon dioxide absorption—of another party. The intended goal of carbon offsets is to combat global warming.

A wide variety of offset actions are available and possible: tree planting is the most frequent, followed by various renewable energy and energy conservation projects, sometimes certified as CDM credits, and sometimes in the form of allowances purchased and retired from the carbon emission trading schemes such as the EU ETS."


How to go Carbon neutral:
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/Climate_Change/What_You_Can_Do/carbon_neutral_steps.asp

ouch. no responses. :(

might want to explain it to the uninitiated ;)

I buy wind power, does that count?

might want to explain it to the uninitiated ;)

I buy wind power, does that count?

Yep, that counts!

ouch. no responses. :(
Okay, I'll log in and vote.

Does buying a Terra Pass count?

Does buying a Terra Pass count?

Definitely, that's exactly what a Terra Pass is. :)

Just curious: why did everyone not purchase carbon offsets? Don't believe in it? Don't have the money? Didn't hear about it but you'll do it now?

I suppose I purchase wind power by proxy, but it's not something I go out of the way to do. I think it's a scam, especially after I saw BP running a program. We pay exorbitant prices for a carcinogenic/climate changing fuel, and now we're supposed to pay for it's cleanup? BS! Business' should account for all the impacts of their products... Which would kill profits I suppose. So now we have ~40,000 a year die from fossil fuel pollution in the US alone, and god knows how many dead/what damage due to climate change, since we won't be able to calculate that impact for a decade or so.

Just curious: why did everyone not purchase carbon offsets? Don't believe in it? Don't have the money? Didn't hear about it but you'll do it now?

I, for one, don't think it's a good idea. There is absolutely no way that I will ever pay someone to reduce their emissions. It's like paying a burglar to leave your home.

Large producers of emissions should be paying us for the damage they create. Not the other way around.

I, for one, don't think it's a good idea. There is absolutely no way that I will ever pay someone to reduce their emissions. It's like paying a burglar to leave your home.

Large producers of emissions should be paying us for the damage they create. Not the other way around.

I'm confused.

I buy wind power - or rather, pay for wind power. I'm sure what actually comes to my house is from the power plant down the highway. In effect, I'm paying to reduce my own carbon impact. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

If a burglar came into your house and said, "I'm stealing your fine china, and this set of plastic sippy-cups", would you care about the cups? It's like $2 on every electric bill for me to opt into the wind energy.

every time I fly. I even got my office to agree to buy carbon offsets for business travel.

and most carbon offsets are doing things like recovering methane from landfills, or replacing dirty energy in developing countries with cleaner sources. that's why offsets are so cheap.

and most carbon offsets are doing things like recovering methane from landfills, or replacing dirty energy in developing countries with cleaner sources. that's why offsets are so cheap.

Where do you buy them from? (which company/org?)

I'm confused.

I buy wind power - or rather, pay for wind power. I'm sure what actually comes to my house is from the power plant down the highway. In effect, I'm paying to reduce my own carbon impact. I don't see how that's a bad thing.

If a burglar came into your house and said, "I'm stealing your fine china, and this set of plastic sippy-cups", would you care about the cups? It's like $2 on every electric bill for me to opt into the wind energy.
I'm kinda confused too. I thought carbon offsets are to reduce the emissions of a third-party, not your own emissions. For example, I go buy a tree because my neighbor runs his air conditioning all day long.

I, for one, don't think it's a good idea. There is absolutely no way that I will ever pay someone to reduce their emissions. It's like paying a burglar to leave your home.

Large producers of emissions should be paying us for the damage they create. Not the other way around.

Sure, the ideal is that everyone who's doing something bad would stop doing so and/or fix the bad things they did. But that's very unlikely to happen and in the meantime, you and I are suffering from it too. Think about it this way: the street you live on might have some soda cans and candy wrappers thrown on the ground in front of your home. You didn't put them there but they're making your home and street less beautiful and enjoyable. You have two options:

1. Complain that whoever threw them there should be fined (which won't happen because they'll never be "found") and leave them there
2. Sweep them up yourself and have a cleaner more enjoyable street

I'm kinda confused too. I thought carbon offsets are to reduce the emissions of a third-party, not your own emissions. For example, I go buy a tree because my neighbor runs his air conditioning all day long.

its mostly like companies building biogas plants in india so that they don't need to build coal plants. forestry offsets are problematic because of additionality rules (like, how do you know that the tree was not going to be planted anyway, and who will stop me from cutting it down?)

lots of companies do it. google "carbon offsets" you'll get a ton. terrapass is most mainstream, but others are better. some are nonprofit, others are for-profit.

I don't buy them, because first of all I'm pretty emission free (no car) and second, my reasons for being low on emissions don't really have anything to do with the issues that carbon offsets address.

ouch. no responses. :(

Perhaps the title of your post should have been "How many people carry a gun while purchasing carbon offsetting?"

Seriously though, a great number of people are unaware of just how bad their poisoned lifestyles are. When I talk about why co-workers shouldn't purchase fast food from a drive-through, they look at me like I was from Mars.

Further, many others don't want to talk about it because they are afraid that they are going to singled out by someone who is feeling 'holier that thou' because they do care about our environment.

Okay, it's confession time. I don't own a car, I bike everywhere, I recycle, re-use, return, I compost and I have about a half a can of garbage every two weeks. I'm pretty green, and I get lots of support from my family. We buy green power, store solar energy, and generally do our bit for the planet. That said, every year I fly somewhere with my bike for a vacation.

Is that kinda like carbon offset?

Perhaps the title of your post should have been "How many people carry a gun while purchasing carbon offsetting?"

Seriously though, a great number of people are unaware of just how bad their poisoned lifestyles are. When I talk about why co-workers shouldn't purchase fast food from a drive-through, they look at me like I was from Mars.

Further, many others don't want to talk about it because they are afraid that they are going to singled out by someone who is feeling 'holier that thou' because they do care about our environment.

Okay, it's confession time. I don't own a car, I bike everywhere, I recycle, re-use, return, I compost and I have about a half a can of garbage every two weeks. I'm pretty green, and I get lots of support from my family. We buy green power, store solar energy, and generally do our bit for the planet. That said, every year I fly somewhere with my bike for a vacation.

Is that kinda like carbon offset?

you are better than most people, but not good enough. carbon offsets will make you neutral. however, if it ever catches on, the "easy carbon" will dry up, and the price of offsets will go up. this will show how really difficult it will be to stop global warming.

but we will do it anyway, or we will inexorably kill the planet.

Perhaps the title of your post should have been "How many people carry a gun while purchasing carbon offsetting?"

Seriously though, a great number of people are unaware of just how bad their poisoned lifestyles are. When I talk about why co-workers shouldn't purchase fast food from a drive-through, they look at me like I was from Mars.

Further, many others don't want to talk about it because they are afraid that they are going to singled out by someone who is feeling 'holier that thou' because they do care about our environment.

Okay, it's confession time. I don't own a car, I bike everywhere, I recycle, re-use, return, I compost and I have about a half a can of garbage every two weeks. I'm pretty green, and I get lots of support from my family. We buy green power, store solar energy, and generally do our bit for the planet. That said, every year I fly somewhere with my bike for a vacation.

Is that kinda like carbon offset?

Not quite. You're definitely better than 99.9% of people but the point of carbon offsets is to make yourself carbon neutral, i.e. at zero. So the amount of carbon you put out, you're paying to have taken out. You put out near zero in your life at home, etc, but then the flights are a negative that you don't offset. Still, it feels wrong to say anything "critical" to you because as far as I'm concerned the way you live is freakin' awesome! :)

Large producers of emissions should be paying us for the damage they create. Not the other way around.

I don't know. I realize that who's really powerful and who's not is a little different in this situation, but companies that provide you with services are on some level your servant. They'd never provide you with energy from pollution-rich sources unless you paid them to do it. On some level it's like telling someone "i'll give you ten grand to kill that guy" and then wanting the hit-man to pay you afterward, because he did something immoral.

The trouble with oil is that it's being sold too cheaply (that's why people use it so much) rather than being sold for too much.

My utility doesn't seem to offer carbon offsets, so I voted No. I probably would buy them if they were available, although I find the concept a little confusing.

One thing that does concern me about carbon offsets is that I can throw a few dollars at the utility company, then crank up the A/C rather painlessly. Maybe a more straightforward way to do it would be to increase the cost of the electricity to where it can easily fund green initiatives. The carbon offset seems like green "charity" to me.

Perhaps the title of your post should have been "How many people carry a gun while purchasing carbon offsetting?"

A little OT, but you raise a good question... one that's too depressing to even comment on.

My utility doesn't seem to offer carbon offsets, so I voted No. I probably would buy them if they were available, although I find the concept a little confusing.

One thing that does concern me about carbon offsets is that I can throw a few dollars at the utility company, then crank up the A/C rather painlessly. Maybe a more straightforward way to do it would be to increase the cost of the electricity to where it can easily fund green initiatives. The carbon offset seems like green "charity" to me.

its not utilities that offer carbon offsets. the way it works is that companies do projects that reduce a certain amount of carbon from going into the air. they get certified emissions reductions (CER's) from those projects, which are authorized by various industry bodies. they can sell those CERs for whatever they can get for them.

it is huge in europe, where industries have emissions caps over which they cannot go. if they pollute too much, they need to buy CERs to bring themselves back into compliance. other industries, if they pollute less than their quota, can make and sell CERs.

industry and individual systems are different. here in the US there is no law, so you only buy offsets if you care about the earth. nobody gives you a pollution quota that you may not go above. but they should.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/carbon_offset_wind_credits_carbon_reduction.htm

this website has links to various companies that sell offsets.

its not utilities that offer carbon offsets. the way it works is that companies do projects that reduce a certain amount of carbon from going into the air. they get certified emissions reductions (CER's) from those projects, which are authorized by various industry bodies. they can sell those CERs for whatever they can get for them.

it is huge in europe, where industries have emissions caps over which they cannot go. if they pollute too much, they need to buy CERs to bring themselves back into compliance. other industries, if they pollute less than their quota, can make and sell CERs.

industry and individual systems are different. here in the US there is no law, so you only buy offsets if you care about the earth. nobody gives you a pollution quota that you may not go above. but they should.

The Amgen Tour of California purchased carbon offsets last year because of all the cars, etc at the race. Not sure if they're doing it again this year.

EDIT: Just checked, it was sponsor Clif Bar last year that agreed to purchase carbon offsets for all the carbon dioxide emissions from the race.

http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/carbon_offset_wind_credits_carbon_reduction.htm

this website has links to various companies that sell offsets.


Just had a look at TerraPass. I am considering some flights this year and these look to me like a kind of carbon tax... http://www.terrapass.com/flight/products.flight.2500.php?flight_carbon=0&flight_miles=0

Spend $36 and feel better about all the CO2 you've just blasted into the atmosphere.


How can you be sure the reductions are real?

TerraPass is independently audited by the non-profit Center for Resource Solutions (CRS). CRS is the leading certification agency in the renewable energy market.

This audit verifies that TerraPass member funds go to the stated purpose and has the stated impact. TerraPass is the only organization in our industry to go through this verification process.

My wife's wedding ring came from a green jeweler, and I paid the voluntary carbon offset tax. It was less than $3 though, so I hope enough people pay it as well so they can plant a shrub at least.

Just had a look at TerraPass. I am considering some flights this year and these look to me like a kind of carbon tax... http://www.terrapass.com/flight/products.flight.2500.php?flight_carbon=0&flight_miles=0

Spend $36 and feel better about all the CO2 you've just blasted into the atmosphere.

No, carbon offsets actually REMOVE carbon from the atmosphere (some by planting trees for example). So you'll actually be removing the carbon you blasted into the atmosphere.

So this looks promising but I'm an offset virgin and I have a number of questions:


Is it better to buy the offsets than to donate money to environmental groups or to political action groups? Why or why not?
I looked at the links on ecobusinesslinks (http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/carbon_offset_wind_credits_carbon_reduction.htm) (Thanks genericbikedude :)) Some offsets are non-profit and some, including TerraPass, are not. What does this mean?
How do people determine how many offsets to buy in order to become "carbon neutral"?
Is it better to emit less carbon in the first place than to offset it?
How come most offset projects are in developing countries when it's wealthy nations that emit the most carbon?
What else do I need to know about this? Pro and con....

see below


So this looks promising but I'm an offset virgin and I have a number of questions:



Is it better to buy the offsets than to donate money to environmental groups or to political action groups? Why or why not?

Whatever you think makes the most sense. Do you think that a cyclist is stronger from riding 10 miles to work every day for a year, or from training intensely for a month? And don't be dishonest. It is not an either-or situation.


I looked at the links on ecobusinesslinks (http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/carbon_offset_wind_credits_carbon_reduction.htm) (Thanks genericbikedude :)) Some offsets are non-profit and some, including TerraPass, are not. What does this mean?

It means exactly what it means. Some sell offsetts to make profit. Others have registered for 501(c)(3) status, and make no money outside of the salaries that they pay to their employees. Both sell offsets. Buy from whichever one you like most.


How do people determine how many offsets to buy in order to become "carbon neutral"?

Calculate your carbon emissions. Google: "carbon calculator." Get an approx answer from one of the website. If you are untrusting, compare two or more. The answer is in tons. Buy CERs that correspond to that tonnage.

If you are an eco-saint, not only will you be able to brag about your low emissions, but you will pay less for CERs.


Is it better to emit less carbon in the first place than to offset it?

Is it better to never smoke? or smoke until you get lung cancer, then get chemotherapy?


How come most offset projects are in developing countries when it's wealthy nations that emit the most carbon?

Because it is cheaper at the moment. Most energy in developing countries comes from really dirty sources, and making it cleaner is relatively cheap. Because of efficiency standards in place from air quality laws, as well as higher costs of everything in developed countries, emissions reductions cost more.

There are also some mechanisms under the Kyoto treaty (CDM and JI) where rich countries can pay poor countries to do reductions, but these are complex and don't apply to the US.

Eventually, cheap CERs in India and China will get used up. The price of carbon will rise once we pick all of the "low-hanging fruits." Until then, buy up the slack in the market.


What else do I need to know about this? Pro and con....

I once found this great internet search site. Gogle? Gooble? ;) And there is this dictionary thing from star wars... Wookiepedia?

Thanks, genericbikerdude. I do know how to google and wiki, but the whole thing seems so abstract and I'm still not grasping the basic concept. I'll keep working on it as it sounds promising. Like many others, I think carbon is the biggest problem we're facing right now and I'd do just about anything to help.

I'm still not grasping the basic concept

what is the problem?

1. people do *things* that reduce the amount of carbon emitted. these *things* vary
2. these emissions reductions are certified (by someone)
3. CERs are issued (by that someone)
4. you buy the CERs from the person who did the *things*

simple.

what is the problem?

1. people do *things* that reduce the amount of carbon emitted. these *things* vary
2. these emissions reductions are certified (by someone)
3. CERs are issued (by that someone)
4. you buy the CERs from the person who did the *things*

simple.
Well I'm simple too, so I should be able to understand this.

SUDDEN FLASH OF UNDERSTANDING! Am I paying him for doing a good *thing* in order to make up for a bad *thing* that I did? That is so bizarre. It almost seems medieval. I love it! Do I have it right now?

Is this a carbon offset?
I always buy biodiesel for big my truck, and ethanol for my fast car. So by using the land we normally use to grow food, I am starving the poorest of the poor. So the fewer people on the planet, the less pollution, right? After all, an African life isn't worth the same as westerners right?

Anyhow sorry for the grim post, but I think is is important to not loose sight of the fact that our actions have real affects on the planet we live in now. Carbon offsets, if they plant trees for example, those trees don't really start to take in large amounts of carbon, until decades down the road, by which time much of the damage of your carbon has already been done. We need to look at our life in terms of how our over consumption will effect the quality of life for those in Bangladesh, ect. But really, I am just saving up, I am going to try to use emit 450,000 pounds of carbon this year, and offset it, doing good for the world and I get A FREE FOLDING BIKE!!!!!

Let us break up your rant into its component parts:


Is this a carbon offset?
I always buy biodiesel for big my truck, and ethanol for my fast car.

No, this is not an offset. Offsetting is removing carbon from the atmosphere or preventing it from being emitted. Using biofuel does not do this. When you burn biodiesel, carbon is emitted. This carbon was taken from the atmosphere when the plants grew, but then the biodiesel was transported, and the fertilizer and tractors used to grow it involved carbon emissions. So biofuel is lower-carbon, but nor carbon neutral.

Now, if you replaced the fuel supply for an entire region (say, a state in India) from one that was high carbon to one that is low carbon, then you would be preventing a certain amount of carbon from going into the atmosphere. This could be made into a saleable CER.


So by using the land we normally use to grow food, I am starving the poorest of the poor. So the fewer people on the planet, the less pollution, right? After all, an African life isn't worth the same as westerners right?

That is a silly demagogic argument. THere is a net world food surplus, which keeps food prices low. Low food prices mean that African farmers can't get any income when they sell their crops. THerefore they have no savings, and many only produce at the subsistence level. When there is a bad year (more coming with climate change), many starve.

There is no world food shortage. The problem is distribution and economics. The US and Europe need to stop subsidizing their farmers.

You should be ashamed at yourself for making such a ridiculous argument.


Anyhow sorry for the grim post, but I think is is important to not loose sight of the fact that our actions have real affects on the planet we live in now. Carbon offsets, if they plant trees for example, those trees don't really start to take in large amounts of carbon, until decades down the road, by which time much of the damage of your carbon has already been done.

Very few offsetting programs plant trees. As I said above, it is hard to develop a defensable methodology for quantifying the CERs, as it is hard to tell how fast the trees will grow, who will look after them, and how to ensure that they are not cut down or burned in a forest fire. Most CERs are carbon avoidance, like energy efficiency and renewable energy.


We need to look at our life in terms of how our over consumption will effect the quality of life for those in Bangladesh, ect.

I agree. You should first reduce your overall impact. But living in a rich country it is virtually impossible to be completely carbon neutral. Reduce your emissions as much as you can, then offset the rest.


But really, I am just saving up, I am going to try to use emit 450,000 pounds of carbon this year, and offset it, doing good for the world and I get A FREE FOLDING BIKE!!!!!

I'll ignore the first part, but say sheeeeit, whats the matter with a free bike?

OK? No more cheap rhetoric, please.

The comment I made was satire, not my real opinion, i don't drive a car or fly in planes. The simple fact is that biofuels, raise prices and might price out the poor. Carbon offsets run the risk of making people feel OK about their consumption, if they can afford the bill.

Hey thanks to this poll, it finally kicked the issue into my awareness. I've heard buzzings about it in the background, but never took action to look into it.

Like Roody though, I have questions but at least I feel motivated now to figure things out. I like to do a lot of research before giving people my hard-earned money, but rest assured, I will do this. Thanks!

Hey thanks to this poll, it finally kicked the issue into my awareness. I've heard buzzings about it in the background, but never took action to look into it.

Like Roody though, I have questions but at least I feel motivated now to figure things out. I like to do a lot of research before giving people my hard-earned money, but rest assured, I will do this. Thanks!

Awesome! :)

I remember that Men's Journal had a good guide on this stuff. Let me see if I can find the article and I'll post some of the info (websites, etc) they had to find more info and purchase carbon offsets.

Well, based on what I've read so far, from Daily Grist (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/10/10/gies/), I have begun my modest contributions to carbonfund.org (http://www.carbonfund.org).

I referenced this thread when filling out the form on "how did you hear about us?". Oh, and now I get to vote in the poll...

Thanks for spreading the good word, every little bit helps.

Well, based on what I've read so far, from Daily Grist (http://www.grist.org/news/maindish/2006/10/10/gies/), I have begun my modest contributions to carbonfund.org (http://www.carbonfund.org).

I referenced this thread when filling out the form on "how did you hear about us?". Oh, and now I get to vote in the poll...

Thanks for spreading the good word, every little bit helps.

So maybe if we try this poll again in 6 months, we'll get a better percentage saying "yes." :)

Planting trees in general does not remove carbon from the atmosphere over the long term.
Every carbon molecule the tree takes in (converting CO2 to O2) is stored in the trunks or in the soil. When the tree decays, it produces CO2 (aerobic digestion) and methane (anaerobic digestion), which is 24 times as potent as CO2 as a greenhouse gas. So planting a tree is likely to just delay carbon emission.
Trees also lower the amount of natural vegetation that would otherwise exist (wherever they are planted). Tree farms, where large amounts of pine are planted can also screw up ecosystems and water tables. If it's done well, that's another issue.
I'm all for supporting wind power, and am very happy to see that performance bike went that route.
It's also nice to see these options, as they stimulate debate, increase awareness, and can be helpfull.

So maybe if we try this poll again in 6 months, we'll get a better percentage saying "yes." :)
I'll have changed my vote from no to yes by then. Thanks for the time and trouble you took to explain this complicated (for me anyway) issue. And thanks to everybody else who found good links.

I enjoyed working in coal mines and I still have friends there making a living so burn, baby, burn. More CO2 in the air up in Mendocino helps the local "weeds" grow better.

If you are part of the anti-offset movement contact the Colorado School of Mines and get one of the bumper stickers that says:

BAN MINING
AND LET THE BASTARDS FREEZE IN THE DARK
Whoa. Easy fella! Why do you think offsets would harm anybody or anything?

Actually, coal miners should welcome the limits on greenhouse gas emissions. At this time, only one carbon emission-free power source is ready to come online quickly. That's gasified coal with carbon capture. This is probably a good time to own coal mining stocks.