Bicycle Mechanics - chain question: Is my LBS pulling my chain??

I brought my bike, that I have been building from the frame up, in to the LBS today. I wanted them to set up my front and rear de-railers and put on my new SRAM chain. I'm running shimano xt hyperglide rear cassette and blackspire chainrings( blackspire is a highend brand manufactured here in Vancouver). These are all brand new. He said that SRAM chains are crap. He wont sell anything but shimano drivetrain parts. He said my drive train setup will work but is fundamentally incompatible. He said that after no more than 2 years it will fail. He said if i bought a new shimano chain it would last longer. I have read that many of you prefer sram chains. Is this guy just trying to sell me the $30 shimano chain I dont need or is his reasoning sound? Maybe if I switched the chainrings to shimano so that everything except the chain is shimano it would be a better set-up?:confused: :mad: :D

Originally posted by veganheart
He said that SRAM chains are crap. He wont sell anything but shimano drivetrain parts. He said my drive train setup will work but is fundamentally incompatible.

I think he's feeding you a line. I and many others have successfully run SRAM chains on Shimano drivetrains with excelent results and no loss of durability. I personally have encountered the opposite. My bike seems to shift better with the SRAM chain and I've encountered less SRAM chain failures than with Shimano chains. And I'm talking about the high-end Shimano chains too... like the CN-7700 (Dura-Ace). Additionally, both my MTB and my RB have mixed Shimano and other manufacturer's components. My MTB has RaceFace cranks and my RB has FSA cranks. They both shift as nice as pure Shimano drivetrains. Many bikes come from the factory that way too.

Don't believe the hype! I got a SRAM PC 48 chain on a recommendation from a bike store.... recommended based on quality. I was planning on going with a high end Shimano chain too and pay like $30, and they looked at me crazy, took the chain out of my hands and talked to me about the SRAM instead.

They're trying to rip you....

Koff

Originally posted by veganheart
He said my drive train setup will work but is fundamentally incompatible. He said that after no more than 2 years it will fail.

I don't agree with this. As a wrencher, I've installed plenty SRAM chains and had no problems. They shift great on Blackspire rings! I do recommend changing your chain on a yearly basis - to save the integrity of the rest of the drivetrain.:thumbup:

Veganheart, go to MEC, they have SRAM chains 16 to19 bucks, a $6 chain tool and a book, Zinn, the art of (mountain or road what ever kind of bike you have). and you should be set.

Or, just go to Park Tools (http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/FAQindex.shtml#drivetrain) and print out the instructions for adjusting your drive train.

You can also go to nashbar.com and get them for like 11 bucks...

Koffee

Your BlackSpire rings that work with the Shimano will also work with SRAM. I run BlackSpire on two of my bikes. Have a Shimano chain on one and SRAM on the other.

He may get better deals on the Shimano and thats why he does not want to sell a SRAM. I have found the quality of both chains to be equal. I have had each type last a long time and I have had both snap with in a week.



:beer:

I find both chains to be of equal quality except.... when you need to change a link, SRAM makes this a much easier process. Also, SRAM is a little cheaper. But in the end, the most were talking is $30 so.... it's really a matter of how often do you think you will be working on your chain, eg cleaning in, fixing it...

Hey Veganheart, did you get your blackspire rings at MEC cheap too?

Originally posted by veganheart
He said that SRAM chains are crap. He wont sell anything but shimano drivetrain parts. He said my drive train setup will work but is fundamentally incompatible. He said that after no more than 2 years it will fail.

Ask him to quantify what he means by crap and fundamentally incompatible? Also, have him give you the names of the folks who had ShimaNO drive trains fail because of using some other chain. I would love to hear the replies.

------------- Chains 101 ------------

Just so you know, all chains are the same length: 1/2" between each link. As for width:

Shimano HG 8 speed = 7.4mm wide
Shimano HG 9 speed = 6.6mm wide

SRAM 8 speed = 7.1mm wide
SRAM 9 speed = 6.9mm wide

Rohloff 8 speed = 7.1mm wide
Rohloff 9 speed = 6.8mm wide

Campy 8 speed = 7.1mm wide
Campy 9 speed = 6.8mm wide
Campy 10 speed = 6.1mm wide

As you can see, ShimaNO is different -- what a shock. If you haven't noticed a trend, ShimaNO makes a point of creating parts that are always slightly different than everyone else. The new '04 XTR is a perfect example of this proprietary approach to highly integrated componentry as is the Octalink and several other ShimaNO innovations.

Back to your LBS, since your shop wrench sounds like a ShimaNO devotee he is technically correct regarding non-Shimano HG chain compatibility with your Shimano cassette. The ShimaNO Hyperglide system uses a unique, bumbed-out chain side plate design that is designed to be picked up by matched ramps in the cassette cogs and chain rings. All other chain / cassettes and chain rings use the chain rivet/pin heads to perform this little bit of magic that came into being when indexed shifting first arrived on the scene. If you're too young to remember, there was a time when all multi-speed bikes had non-indexed downtube or bar-end "friction" shifters and there was no such thing as "ramped and pinned" chain rings and cassettes. Interestingly enough, it all worked rather well and there was an art form to achieving the perfect crisp shift -- a soft pedal technique. HG allows you to shift under load more efficiently and thus, these long forgotten techniques are no longer needed on most bikes and may even be a benefit for off-road bikes. Anyway, the point is that chain rivets have been lifting chains onto cogs and chain rings for many years. Shimano found a solution looking for a problem -- the HG system -- that allows it to be "incompatible" with all other chain manufacturers because no one else is licensed to produce the patented HG chains.

However, "fundamentally" other 9 speed chains are NOT incompatible with Shimano HG cassettes and chain rings. Fundamental means if a chain is the appropriate width (=/- .2 or .3mm isn't much) and length (we already discussed that all chain links are 1/2" long) it will work. Well, as it turns out, fundamentally all of the non-HG chains work quite well with Shimano's HG cassettes despite the .2 or.3mm difference in chain width and the lack of the HG chain plates. However, what you'll see on your cassettes if you use non-HG chains is some scuffing on the sides of the cassettes where the non-HG chains come in contact with the polished cogs as they move up the cluster. This is cosmetic and does not affect the performance or longevity of the cassettes; however, it is what makes the HG design unique and marginally more precise in it's engineering and performance.

Bottom Line: I'm pretty anal about bikes but beyond being impressed that Shimano actually took the time to engineer this much detail into their bicycle drivetrain components I'm not convinced that it's a quantum leap as far as being a "better" design that the pin pick-up. After all, we are still talking about "what is fundamentally the same" chain and cog drive system conceived by Leonardo daVinci. And, fundamentally, non-Shimano HG chains work just fine on Shimano cassettes. In fact, the cheaper models of Shimano's HG chains do too....

More than you wanted to know but you probably know as much as your LBS guy does now, if not more... what with his ShimaNO blinders on and all.

There is a slight chance that an all-shimano drivetrain will shift slightly better with a shimano chain. I can actually notice the difference on one (and only one...) bike that I own. Having said that, the question for you is this: how durable/smooth shifting do you want? Would you like the extra ease of a powerlink, or the slightly greater durability/smoothness of a shimano chain? How much more is it worth to you, and what is the price difference?
I have 1 bike that absolutely needs a shimano chain, due to a gap between the rings (SRAM chain slips between too easily...), and I run an I92 chain on that bike, as opposed to the SRAM PC-68's that I usually run. I've been happy with both.

Originally posted by D*Alex
Having said that, the question for you is this: how durable/smooth shifting do you want? Would you like the extra ease of a powerlink, or the slightly greater durability/smoothness of a shimano chain? How much more is it worth to you, and what is the price difference?

Just a data point on re-useable links. From a prior posting elsewhere on this list....

If you're using Campy or Shimano chains your best bet for a re-useable link is the Forster (formerly Craig) SuperLink. In general, the SuperLink III (Green Card) works with Campy 10spd; SuperLink II (Pink Card) works with 9 speed, SuperLink I (Yellow Card) works with 8/7 speed.

They are available at Branford bike for $7.95/ea (ouch). http://www.branfordbike.com/chains/chains4.html#item5

But, unless you're buying something else from Branford, save $2 or $3 by buying them from Lickton's: http://www.lickbike.com/i0338150.htm

Note: None of the re-useable links feature the HG sideplates. However, I don't think you'll notice since it will be only one of your 114 or so links.

He said that SRAM chains are crap. He wont sell anything but shimano drivetrain parts.

my shop is basically the opposite. we'll sell shimano cassettes and rings, but no chains (unless someone specifically says they want one). we stock SRAM chains. i found out why the hard way.

when i was putting together my fixed gear i grabbed an old shimano chain that was laying around. i was broke and trying to save a few bucks where possible. that chain broke a few weeks ago. having a chain break on a fixed gear is a bad thing. we'll see how well this SRAM chain works out.

I stock Sram and KMC chains. I have never seen a shimaNO chain outlast any SRAM or KMC chain. As a matter of fact I have been known to pull shimaNO chains apart.

did he actually say that SRAM 's are crap (in their performance?) maybe he just doesn't get good discounts on them and it decreases his profits. i have stuck with shimano chains on my ultegra drivetrain and they last over 3000 miles each. i've installed 4 of them (one each year) on my bike and the drivetrain still looks like new. i'm not going to change what isn't broken unless i have to (same with my michelin tires)

it is obvious that people love their SRAMS and rightfully so, though

I sell both as well as KMC and they all have strong points. The Shimano gives a little better shifting with all Shimano cogs and chainrings. Sram seems to be a little stronger and longer lived, and your best bet. I liked KMC 1/8th for fixed and single speed, they really can handle the beating of skipping to a stop.
Any time someone says something is crap or great without qualification, then their opinion is "crap"

Our shop sells mostly Shimano chains. One thing I have found SRAM chains quite useful for is ghost shifting issues on FS bikes-where we would have issues running Shimano chains the SRAM chains did no ghost shifting. Most people around here are running full Shimano drivetrains and request the Shimano chains. I personally have never had any trouble with them, nor can I recall any others. As Chuck said, if someone tells you something is crap and doesn't justify that opinion, you need to start asking some questions.

My shop uses SRAM chains unless otherwise requested. I use them exclusively on my bikes and have no complaints. That guy is being a stupid

Thanks for your responses. I will try to answer the questions posed. This LBS that I am dealing with is well known in my area for being a top notch cycle shop. Servicing bikes is their bread and butter. The shop is tiny and they have hardly any bike "goodies" for sale. The shop serves a lot of hardcore couriers. The mechanic I was speaking to said he was out $250 in one month alone because of sram chain failures. He didnt give alot of detail but said that his courier customers depend on him to give them quality workmanship and parts. He said many customers coming back complaining that the sram chain broke. Thus, he stopped using sram chains. He said the sram chain will "eat-up" the front rings (or may be it was the front rings will eat the chain?) then the chewed up chain will cause significant premature wear in the cassette. So I will have to replace all these parts within 2 years. I had already bought my blackspire rings, sram chain and shimano hp cassette at MEC and didnt want to shell out another $30 for a new shimano chain when I already had a new sram pc 48 chain. He showed me two chain rings: one shimano and another blackspire. The shimano had "shallower" teeth than the blackspire, if I recall correctly.
Anyways... since I have already bought the parts I am not going to sink more money into the shimano chain.... especially considering your opinions on the matter (thanks again). One thing I might do, however, is buy a new shimano middle chainring, since thats the primary ring I will be using. Is this advisable or just a waste of money?

Originally posted by Scooby Snax
Hey Veganheart, did you get your blackspire rings at MEC cheap too?

Mec doesn't sell bike parts like that. At least not that I have seen. For good canadian bike part prices

www.bikeroom.com
www.bikecanada.com

Originally posted by veganheart
Thanks for your responses. I will try to answer the questions posed. This LBS that I am dealing with is well known in my area for being a top notch cycle shop. Servicing bikes is their bread and butter. The shop is tiny and they have hardly any bike "goodies" for sale. The shop serves a lot of hardcore couriers. The mechanic I was speaking to said he was out $250 in one month alone because of sram chain failures. He didnt give alot of detail but said that his courier customers depend on him to give them quality workmanship and parts. He said many customers coming back complaining that the sram chain broke.


Not sure why this would be but a lot of shore and whistler riders ride sram chains because they are stronger and easier to service.



Thus, he stopped using sram chains. He said the sram chain will "eat-up" the front rings (or may be it was the front rings will eat the chain?) then the chewed up chain will cause significant premature wear in the cassette. So I will have to replace all these parts within 2 years.


I don't see why. As a courier in Vancouver you will have to replace your chain often so check for chain stretch. As long as you change it often enough the cassette should last. 2 years on a bike courier seems like a long time for drive train parts but I am a beast on drive trains so I am a little biased. (In fact I recently switched to an sram cassette as well just for qualities sake.



I had already bought my blackspire rings, sram chain and shimano hp cassette at MEC and didnt want to shell out another $30 for a new shimano chain when I already had a new sram pc 48 chain. He showed me two chain rings: one shimano and another blackspire. The shimano had "shallower" teeth than the blackspire, if I recall correctly.


No shimano chain is worth that much. Sram chain pc69 I payed 26$ for and the sram chain is better. Congrats on the blackspire those things are tough. :)



[/b]
Anyways... since I have already bought the parts I am not going to sink more money into the shimano chain.... especially considering your opinions on the matter (thanks again). One thing I might do, however, is buy a new shimano middle chainring, since thats the primary ring I will be using. Is this advisable or just a waste of money? [/B]

Get a second opinion. There are lots of shops in vancouver and I definately wouldn't believe one. I have never heard of an incompatibility issue so this is news to me. Try talking to some at Dizzy's, maybe John Henry's and Cove. 3 of the hardest core shops on the shore will know something about compatibility and strength. :)

Cheers

Maelstrom:

Just F.Y.I. Yes, I did get the blackspire chainrings at Mountain Equipment Co-op and no I am not a bike courier.

thanks dude

Originally posted by veganheart
The mechanic I was speaking to said he was out $250 in one month alone because of sram chain failures.

Your LBS guy is most likely referring to a bad run of Sachs chains in 1998 that were recalled almost at the same time that SRAM acquired Sachs. A copy of the recall notice is here: http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml98/98110.html

The recall was subsequently extended to the 'G' model chains. However, to characterize SRAM chains as crap based on a bad run begs the question, are Shimano cranks crap too?
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml97/97149.html

To be blunt, he should get over it.

I would also venture a guess based on bikes that I've fixed and/or questions that I've had to answer that more cyclists have experienced Shimano chain failures over the years than the Sachs chains back in '98. However, the failures are usually a result of human error, i.e., using a chain pin removal tool to open up a Shimano chain and then pushing the pin back vs using a new, one-time use only replacement pin.

I have no idea what he's referring to with regard to premature chain or chainring wear related to SRAM chains.

Bottom Line: Rohloff, Wipperman, and SRAM are some of the finest chains made. Of the 3, SRAM are the most cost effective and perform as well for most applications. Shimano also makes an excellent line of chains and arguably the best OEM cassettes (mind you, I'm a Campy guy at heart as I say this). Shimano's chains are designed to work with their cassettes and chain rings and do use a proprietary design. However, any of the aforementioned chains by Rohloff, Wipperman and SRAM as well as KMC and others are compatible with Shimano's cassettes and derailleurs. The key to chain ring and cassette longevity is monitoring chain wear. If replaced at the proper intervals none of these chains will cause excess damage to cassettes or chain rings.