Mountain Biking - 2003 XTR Group

Thus far I've only seen pictures and read about this all new groupo. Does anyone have any real-world experience? The components that are giving me some stress are the new shifter/brake levers and the rapid-rise derailier. From what I've read:

- One pushes down on the STI-type levers to go to a higher (smaller cog - lower on the cassette) gear

- One pushes up on the levers to go to a lower (bigger cog - higher on the cassette) gear

- One now cannot downshift (bigger cog - higher on the cassette) multiple gears @ once, but one can upshift (smaller cog - lower on the cassette) up to 3 gears @ once.


So my questions are:

- Am I correct with these statements?

- One can apparently still use a (now redundant) thumb shifter. Does that shift to a higher (smaller cog - lower on the cassette) or a lower (bigger cog - higher on the cassette) gear?

- How do you like this new arrangement?

- Do you have any other comments on the XTR groupo?


ThanX a bunch!!!!!! :)

No clue on rapid rise or the new STI's. My drivetrain is '02 XTR, except the crankset which is '03.

So far it's held up very well. I have ~110 miles on it so far, and the only sign of it is some light rubbing from my shoes. Obviously it's going to get worse quick, but it adds character :)

One problem was the chainline on my bike was right-of-center. The included spacers pushed everything out too far. (There are 3 spacers included with the crankset. 2 go on the drive-side, 1 on the non-drive.) I had to reverse the spacers and put 2 on the non-drive side and 1 one the drive-side to get an even chainline. As it sits now, the entire crankset is a couple mm's off center on the bike, but I don't notice it. I guess it's the price you pay for the integrated unit...the benefits being the lighter weight and wider spaced bearings.

I went pic crazy when I got everything put together :)

Purty crankset:

I'm still quite warry of the 2003 xtr, but those cranks sure have a pretty finish on them!

It's just my opinion, but I feel like Shimano tried to fix something that wasn't broken. This is also the same reason I'm going to be switching to Sram for 2004.

Have to with Danka....although Sram has to come out with a reasonable priced rapid fire shifter...I can't do grip shift :)

So far, their trigger shifters are only compatible with their deraileurs. Still, I would be happy to throw a 9.0 on to match the triggers if it meant avoiding this new trend from Shimano.

Thats the point. The new rapid fire with the sram deraileurs...

But unlike Apple, Shimano has claim on almost the entire high-end market. Walmart bikes use Gripshift, Cannondale's come (or used to) with it. I'm unable to think of anything else that does. If anyone was going to pull something like this off (making all the other manufacturers' products obsolete) Shimano is in a great position to do it. Everyone I see jumping on this new line of products worries me.

[edit]
I on the other hand, am not even a little afraid to bucher a thread :p

Has anyone here actually used the new shifters? I hear they're not all that bad. I think it would be nice to keep your index finger on the brake for shifting. Granted the price is high, but when the new system trickles down to XT, I'm sure it'll be lower.

Disliking it because it doesn't work is one thing...but don't dismiss it just because it's new and different.

Originally posted by schnell
Has anyone here actually used the new shifters? I hear they're not all that bad. I think it would be nice to keep your index finger on the brake for shifting. Granted the price is high, but when the new system trickles down to XT, I'm sure it'll be lower.

Disliking it because it doesn't work is one thing...but don't dismiss it just because it's new and different.

I was able to test it...and it won't work for serious freeriders (too much bar movement and keeping the finger on the brake lever, I would misshift A LOT). Having it in the xTX class is ridiculous. XC riding fine. I don't see an issue with pulling a finger off and have never had an issue so I don't see how this was broken...

The price isn't high its ridiculous...I don't eve dismiss it because of price. If you want to run their drive train you need to run the entire system (especially if you run xtx). I hate being forced to run stuff. This TOTAL proprietary requirement is what pisses me off about it. Whether the system is good or not is irrelevant :)

Originally posted by DiL
But unlike Apple, Shimano has claim on almost the entire high-end market.



Good point...although this may not make sense to anyone reading this since I removed my post :D...



Everyone I see jumping on this new line of products worries me.


:)...I just want shimano to pull their head out of their ass and offer choices...I hate being painted into a corner by a company. Sram is really no better with their grip shift but IF they come out with a good working rapid fire that will really impress me.

It may not be the best option for freeriding or DH, so I agree that it was a bad move to completely do away with rapid-fire. But from an XC perspective, it sounds like a cool system. I guess I'm a dying breed ;)

What about Saint? Do you already dislike that, or are you going to test it out first? :D ;)

Originally posted by schnell
It may not be the best option for freeriding or DH, so I agree that it was a bad move to completely do away with rapid-fire. But from an XC perspective, it sounds like a cool system. I guess I'm a dying breed ;)



Exactly...if I ever buy a pure xc bike it sounds great :) And in fact is very inventive...




What about Saint? Do you already dislike that, or are you going to test it out first? :D ;)

Thats what I meant by XTX...I don't like shimano hubs so I am already out of luck. I also don't like the fact I can't run an Evil chain guide or Raceface cranks. Because their entire system requires everything THEY make I refuse to buy it. It might be a good system but I refuse to make my bike a 100% shimano bike. To explain further

1 - propietary spline on the bb requiring proprietary chain guide requiring proprietary crank and heck it may even have a proprietary hole configuration meaning fews choices for chain rings.
2 - On the rear end. Deraileur attached to hub (I think this is dumb) so proprietary hub/deraileur...I would be surprised if they don't come out with a way to make a proprietary chain.
3 - The shifters...I already said enough about this....

So in short...yes I already dislike it :)

Well, come Tuesday, I will be officially Shimano less. The parts needed will be in. Will I be able to ride it for awhile. Nope thanks to a strained acl. I will ride but not mash.

I don't like how Shimano asked for a fix to a problem that never existed. I haven't tried them, and I don't want to. My biggest beef is them trying to FORCE everyone into only using Shimano parts. Like their rotors that conveiniently ONLY fit their hubs. Now that their monopoly on the high-end mountain bike parts market is slowly disappearing they're struggling to hold onto it. There are companies making as good (If not better) parts for less money. I'd rather send my money to the underdog, and hopefully a company that's in the USA. Just because a company isn't massive doesn't mean it doesn't make good parts!

Originally posted by Jim311
I don't like how Shimano asked for a fix to a problem that never existed. I haven't tried them, and I don't want to. My biggest beef is them trying to FORCE everyone into only using Shimano parts. Like their rotors that conveiniently ONLY fit their hubs. Now that their monopoly on the high-end mountain bike parts market is slowly disappearing they're struggling to hold onto it. There are companies making as good (If not better) parts for less money. I'd rather send my money to the underdog, and hopefully a company that's in the USA. Just because a company isn't massive doesn't mean it doesn't make good parts!

I absolutely agree.

Oh, and by the way.... apparently not too many people are using the Shimano disc brake system simply because you have to use their levers, hubs, etc. I don't think it's a coincidence that soon they are going to be offering their rotors in the international 6-bolt standard pattern.

Originally posted by schnell
Has anyone here actually used the new shifters? I hear they're not all that bad. I think it would be nice to keep your index finger on the brake for shifting. Granted the price is high, but when the new system trickles down to XT, I'm sure it'll be lower.

Disliking it because it doesn't work is one thing...but don't dismiss it just because it's new and different.

Its not the concept I dislike. As an XC rider I can appreciate this sort of innovation. However, what I dislike about it is the principle. They're creating a proprietary standard that other companies may or may not (I suspect not) be able to duplicate. An instant monopoly is created. Great if you write "Sincerely Mr Shimano" at the bottom of all your letters, but that leaves a whole lot of other companies screwed over. And as consumers we're being setup for a big (bigger) price hike.

Since we're riding this Apple theme, I'll use it again. I wish I owned a Mac. When it comes to video editing they simply cannot be beat. There are programs for PC that do it, but they can't compare to their Mac counterparts. However, I won't buy a Mac because they play the greedy proprietary game. Love the product, hate the manufacturer would be another way to say it.

I would think the same would apply to the Saint line. Some of the ideas were better than others, but on a whole I think people liked the innovative ideas. But no one wants to help Shimano dominate a market.

Originally posted by schnell
No clue on rapid rise or the new STI's. My drivetrain is '02 XTR, except the crankset which is '03.

ThanX for the info., schnell. Did you get the 02 XTR stuff (drivetrain sans crankset) because you didn't like the 03 stuff?

ThanX!! :)

Holy cow - now I'm really confused! :D

I'm buying a new bike that I would like to fit with the XTR group. However, I'm scared that I will not like the new STI shifter/brake levers and the rapid-rise derailier.

If I find that I do not like this set-up. Would it be possible to get the entire 03 XTR group, but substitute the 02 XTR shifters, brake levers and derailier? In other words, will there be any compatibility problems with this type of set-up??

ThanX again guys!!!! :)

While you cannot downshift multiple gears at once with the new system, many people (including Specialized) are using last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur to remedy this.
The thumb shifter is intended as a learning crutch and is removable. Our customers have done away with it quickly and never looked back.
I am personally not a huge fan of the new setup-I want to have more flexibility in levers, etc. Shimano makes great stuff, I just don't want to be forced to use only their components. Rapid Rise works great for me-I've got one of last year's derailleurs and I've had no trouble at all with it. I've ridden the new setup on a couple occasions and have found it to work well, but I don't have any desire to switch to this configuration.
For the SRAM folks, they are coming out with triggers that will work with Shimano derailleurs.

So what happens if you break an XTR lever? You can't shift OR brake? That would SUCK to be stuck out in the boondocks with no brakes or shifters!

Originally posted by Waldo
While you cannot downshift multiple gears at once with the new system, many people (including Specialized) are using last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur to remedy this.
The thumb shifter is intended as a learning crutch and is removable. Our customers have done away with it quickly and never looked back.
I am personally not a huge fan of the new setup-I want to have more flexibility in levers, etc. Shimano makes great stuff, I just don't want to be forced to use only their components. Rapid Rise works great for me-I've got one of last year's derailleurs and I've had no trouble at all with it. I've ridden the new setup on a couple occasions and have found it to work well, but I don't have any desire to switch to this configuration.
For the SRAM folks, they are coming out with triggers that will work with Shimano derailleurs.

Are they coming out with a trigger that works with their system?...(sram that is...I am 100% sure I am dumping shimano)

I Agree with the proprietary stuff on XTR and Saint...i dont like them at all. However i wont dislike shimano for that. so far it produces marvelous products for me ( XT , XT discs , Deore.). No one touches shimano on these series. If shimano screws up with new XT LX etc...and if SRAM or any other come up with something trustworthy ...then shimano will die for me.

Originally posted by Waldo
While you cannot downshift multiple gears at once with the new system, many people (including Specialized) are using last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur to remedy this.

So, if one uses last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur, one then shifts the STIs in the reverse manner? In other words, I could then downshift (multiple gears if desired) by pushing down on the STI lever (or using the redundant thumb shifter), and upshift by pushing up? This sounds like a more desirable configuration to me.

So, is what I just typed correct????

ThanX again!!!! :)

Originally posted by math2p14
I Agree with the proprietary stuff on XTR and Saint...i dont like them at all. However i wont dislike shimano for that. so far it produces marvelous products for me ( XT , XT discs , Deore.). No one touches shimano on these series. If shimano screws up with new XT LX etc...and if SRAM or any other come up with something trustworthy ...then shimano will die for me.

Sram is excellent for shifting actually. In fact some claim better / more reliable...the 9.0 stuff is around equal pricing as well. I think the only thing holding Sram back is the grip shift.

I really don't see what so many people have against grip shift. I don't have any problems with mishifting, and I love being able to shift all 9 gears at once if I want. I have the SRAM XO setup and love it. It shifts fast and smooth, and it's really a "Set it and forget it" system. It's also lighter than XTR. Oh.. and it looks cooler too :p

I don't like it...period...I have tried it and find it very difficult to shift under 'freeride' conditions and in fact misshift too much. One click I am in the gear I want. I can shift up to 3 gears...(if you are shifting the entire cassette in one stroke..no offence but you shouldn't ever have to do that.

It's a common occurance to have to shift more than 3 gears at a time. The terrain here goes from steep downhills to STEEP uphills so in fact it's not unusual to shift 5-6 years up or down, which I can do instantly and easily with gripshift. Rapidfire often leaves me stuck in too difficult a gear because I can't shift enough gears at a time.

Personally i like a lot trigger shifters. I am very happy with my deore shifters and i would never throw them away for gripshift. I must give credit to shimano for my excellent braking system ,DeoreXT discs are awesome. I just hope that shimano stops modernising so rapidly...i like international standards and not silly patterns like octalink and the new splined rotor/hub. Also a good consideration is for shimano to leave the research for shifting on her chainrings and progress on the durability of the arms and rings instead.

Originally posted by bac
So, if one uses last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur, one then shifts the STIs in the reverse manner? In other words, I could then downshift (multiple gears if desired) by pushing down on the STI lever (or using the redundant thumb shifter), and upshift by pushing up? This sounds like a more desirable configuration to me.

So, is what I just typed correct????

ThanX again!!!! :)

To get back to the subject, does anyone have an answer to this?

ThanX again!!! :)

Here are my thoughts.

The cranks have me wanting to see how they hold up after a year of hard riding. Every other crankset like the new XTR (Tioga revolvers, Bullseye, &c.) has developed slop in the "bb" over time. I'd like to be sure that these wil not suffer that same affliction.

The reports that I get on the shifters aren't all that good so far. Two of my friends race semi-pro and pro. Their Epics came fitted with a full XTR grouppo, and after almost an entire spring season, they are not satisfied at all with the shifting. They readily agree that the old style was not broken.

I use Gripshift 9.0 stuff. The only real difference between Shimano and Sram is ergonomic. I think most people take a short spin and write off the shifters without really allowing themselves to get used to the system. I quite like them, and I have never had a bike that shifts as smoothly and as trouble free as my current set up.

Actually a british bike mag. run a long term test on Xtr2003. The results: Crankset still stiff....finish completely removed ..the cranks are bare metal now. Disc brakes completely crap...erratic braking...very short life span on pads. Drivetrain ok... but not awesome as shimano says. Personally i hate the new STI. I hate the new disc hubs. I want freedom to mix and match levers shifters hubs and rotors.

I refuse to buy the new Shimano stuff.

Integrated this, and integrated that... it's corporate BS being pushed onto the consumer. We have one solution to the problem... boycott it. Simply don't buy it.

There's no way in hell I'd switch out my entire rear end setup.. JUST to run a different rear derailleur.


SRAM X.O here I come! :D

Shimano and all it's integrated crap can go back to the drawing boards. Once they stop trying to "fix something that ain't broken" and just wake up and smell the coffee... it'll be great. Their new stuff *LOOKS GOOD* but that's about it.

I tried out the new XTR on a few fellow riders trail bikes about a week ago.. and I can't stand the lever-shifted STI thing. YUCK. I always have at least one finger on the brakes (habit), and I was accidentally mis-shifting just from pulling up over rocks... like I always do with my Hayes brakes and Shimano Deore shifters.

I'll adjust to Gripshift X.O or to SRAM's new Rapidfire system before I EVER lay a dime into this new Saint / XTR crapola'.

Just my 2 Cents.

:rolleyes:

Originally posted by bac
So, if one uses last year's non Rapid Rise rear derailleur, one then shifts the STIs in the reverse manner? In other words, I could then downshift (multiple gears if desired) by pushing down on the STI lever (or using the redundant thumb shifter), and upshift by pushing up? This sounds like a more desirable configuration to me.

So, is what I just typed correct????

ThanX again!!!! :)

In another effort to hijack this thread back. Does anyone have an answer to the above?

ThanX!!! :)

Sorry Bac...I didn't really want this thread hijacked :(...

I don't exactly know the answer but why not try asking Shimano direct. As this is a different configuration than most will probably run :)

Originally posted by bac
In another effort to hijack this thread back. Does anyone have an answer to the above?

ThanX!!! :)

Won't work. 2003 rapid rise will only work with the 2003 levers.

Originally posted by Maelstrom
I don't exactly know the answer but why not try asking Shimano direct. As this is a different configuration than most will probably run :)

Actually, I've tried to get the answer from Shimano. I've visited their web-site and called, but I've yet to get an answer. :(