Road Cycling - a very stupid question...........

Just so you know I havnt been on a road bike for about 5 years. My question is about steering. On road bike handelbars, do you actually turn the handle bars, or do you lean to one side like a motorcycle?:D

You pretty much lean. I only turn where leaning is not appropriate - i.e., going around a corner at a slow speed.

Interesting reading: http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~fajans/Teaching/Steering.htm

... and you thought this was a very stupid question ;)

You turn the handlebars. You turn the bars on a motorcycle as well. You lean to counteract centrifugal force.

Think of it this way: If a bike is moving in a straight line and is then leaned over (handlebars held straight), would the bike turn? No. It would tip over (assuming you are SEATED).

At higher speeds you are turning the bars very slightly and leaning as well, but you absolutely are turning the bars.

No turn of bars=Bike goes straight.
No turn of bars+lean over=Bike goes crash.
At higher speed, All turn+Zero lean=Bike goes crash.

At higher speed, Slight turn of bars+slight lean=Bike goes WHEE! around corner!

Originally posted by easyrider
You turn the handlebars. You turn the bars on a motorcycle as well. You lean to counteract centrifugal force.

Think of it this way: If a bike is moving in a straight line and is then leaned over (handlebars held straight), would the bike turn? No. It would tip over (assuming you are SEATED).

At higher speeds you are turning the bars very slightly and leaning as well, but you absolutely are turning the bars.

No turn of bars=Bike goes straight.
No turn of bars+lean over=Bike goes crash.
At higher speed, All turn+Zero lean=Bike goes crash.

At higher speed, Slight turn of bars+slight lean=Bike goes WHEE! around corner!

ROTFLMAO:D :D :D :D :D :D

I love those little equations you got going there... WEEEEEE

If you start thinking about it too much your likely to become distracted and crash into a parked car. Just do what comes natural. As a kid I knew nothing about centrigugal force yet I was able to ride my bike fast and slow and go around corners just fine. About 10 minutes of refresher practice and you should be riding like a champ again.

You turn the handlebars. You turn the bars on a motorcycle as well. You lean to counteract centrifugal force

No, you lean and the handlebars turn because you lean. Otherwise those folks who can ride so well without using their hands would never be able to turn a corner and they all would be dead by now.

Also, when I am walking with my bike beside me with my hand on the seat, I do not touch the handlebars, yet manage to steer the bike around corners quite nicely by LEANING THE BIKE!!

There are no stupid questions, just easy answers ;)

Just kidding. I lean.

Once you exceed 10plus mph turning a bike is done with "counter steering" i.e., pressure on the bar in the direction you want to turn. I won't try to explain but it works by turning the bars slightly the opposite way which throws the bike off balance and changes the contact patch thus leaning the bike into the turn. To go left, apply light pressure on the left bar or pull lightly with the right bar (same effect) - I know it sounds wrong but it works. We all do it without realizing it because it takes such little pressure to turn a bicycle. Try leaning to turn my 800lb Road King and nothing happens. On a heavy motorcycle you really can feel the counter steering as heavy pressure on the left bar or pulling with the right bar (best is a combination of both) will turn the bike to the left. The harder you push the more it turns - they teach you in the motorcycle safety course - if you pannic in the middle of a corner push harder and the bike will turn more. I truly don't understand the full dynamics of counter steering but I do know it works. At slow speed 10mph or less you steer the way you want to go but at speed counter steering takes over.

HOG-I, great explanation, I was going to type up what you said, but figured it would be easier to give out a link. ;)

Joe G, thanks. Expected to get a little flak, as even in a MSF (motorcycle safety foundation) class people will swear that counter steering doesn't work - even though they are doing it. For me, going back and forth between a bicycle and motorcycle, just makes it easier. I really don't even think about it (somewhere over 100k on motorcycles) as it just comes naturally.

And for anyone who doesn't believe they are countersteering a bicycle, i.e., turn left to go right and lean right OR turn right to go left and lean left... take a minute and visualize yourself going through a corner or turning manuever on your bicycle and think about what you're doing with your arms.

If you're going through a left turn which arm is bent at the elbow the most? That right, it's the right arm!! And if you are going through a right turn you bend your left arm more than the right. Welcome to countersteering. You've been doing all along but didn't know it.

I lean. I ride both bikes and motorcycles.

I was first taught to drive(motortcycle) when I was 10. 'til now I still drive one... I drive an '00 Honda XLR250. From that time, I lean to turn, except at very slow speeds... But its second nature to me, never thought about it, 'til now.

wow!!! this is so interesting!! but so true!!!

now that i think about my tightest turns, i DO countersteer!

Originally posted by DnvrFox
No, you lean and the handlebars turn because you lean.

Sort of, but not really. If your bicycle had zero off-set/rake and you leaned it over it would not turn the way it does, if at all. Now, if you put squared-off hard rubber tires on that same bike with no trail it would never turn.

Fork rake on bicycles and motorcycles is what determines how responsive the two-wheeled machines are to steering inputs and, by design, when you lean over a two-wheeler with fork rake the wheel turns in the opposite direction. Therefore, when riding no hands or when pushing your bike around by the saddle you are "steering" the front wheel by leaning the bike. It is the countersteering that initiates the lean and the turn -- nearly simultaneously.

So, yes, if you are pushing around an unweighted bike you can make some pretty sharp corners. However, on a motorcycle or bicycle that has a full-sized adult rider on board moving at speed you'd be hard pressed to actually ride no hands through a sharp corner without crashing.

Bottom Line: While you can alter the path of a motorcycle or a bicycle by leaning it from one side to the other you cannot actually control the steering. Again, as others have noted, this is a tough concept to sell because so much that is wrong has been written about it.

If you're intriqued and want to know more about the effects of steering trail, round tires and camber steering thrust, and the minor effects of gyroscopic precession and centrifical forces go to the following link -- it does an excellent job of describing the art of steering motorcycles and the physics are pretty much the same for bicycles: http://www.vf750fd.com/blurbs/counter.html

P.S. I'm also a switch-hitter who rides "big bikes" every day and has for 30 years. Vroom vroom.... http://home.att.net/~dos_equis/

Originally posted by DnvrFox
Also, when I am walking with my bike beside me with my hand on the seat, I do not touch the handlebars, yet manage to steer the bike around corners quite nicely by LEANING THE BIKE!!

I'm not saying that you are totally wrong. You can prove it to yourself with your own example. Hold your bike by the seat and walk with it. Now turn it around a corner. Sure you lean the bike but the handlebars ALSO TURN. A bike with straight handlebars does not go around a corner, no matter how much you lean it. The fact that you didn't touch the handlebars in no way means that they are not turned. In fact, you "swivel" the bike, as guys are discussing above, to countersteer it. Then you lean it around the corner as the wheel turns.

Try this: While holding the seat and turning the bike around a corner, STOP the bike mid-turn. Look at the position of the bike. Leaned. Look at the front wheel. Turned.