Folding Bikes - About to order a steel Swift and I had a few questions..

I'm about to pull the trigger on a steel swift made by Human Powered Machines, and I was hoping some people could help me out with a few things. Below is the spec list form HPM for the Steel Swift:


TYPE: Folding bicycle.
WHEELBASE: 41”
BB HEIGHT: 11”
STAND OVER HEIGHT: 25”
WEIGHT: 28 lbs.
FRAME: TIG welded CroMo tubing.
FORK: CroMo Unicrown.
FOLDED DIMENSIONS: 10” X 21.5” X 30”.
WHEELS: Rims- alloy 20” 406mm; spokes- stainless steel.
DRIVETRAIN: Single speed, SRAM Torpedo
7-Speed internal hub or SRAM dual Drive 3X9 27-speed hub.
BRAKES: V-brakes or disk brakes ($140. extra).
OPTIONS: Standard drive train, fenders, racks, bag, suitcase.
PRICE: $850


The weight listed at HPM is 28lbs and the aluminum xootr is listed at 22lbs. Is the weight difference really that much? Should I expect a bike that weighs close to 30lbs with the shimano 8 redline hub and no accessories? I thought I read that the steel swift is only a couple pounds heavier than the aluminum version. Im not a weight weenie. I weigh 230 at 6'2".

I was also wondering about internal geared hub options. If I get the redline it could bump the price up another 80-100 dollars. Is it worth it? I was told it was heavier....is there a big weight difference? What are other good hub options? What is a good 3 speed hub to use? Are there any good three speed hubs that are high quality, but for cheaper than my shimano options?

Are the breaks something that I should upgrade? I think Jan at HPM told me that the price would be about 120-150 more if I upgraded to the shimano redline 8speed hub, and XT V-brakes. Do you think it makes sense to pay the extra money for the XT brakes?

Thanks for any help that is offered!
-j

Search back in the Swift thread. I built what you might be interested in. I was the first one (AFAIK) that went with the redline and was an early champion of that hub in a folder. I couldn't be happier with my selection. Keep in mind with the steel framed one that the spacing is narrower for the wheels so tire choices may be more difficult.

Since it looks like you are trying to build something very similar to what I have I'd say go for the upgraded bike. Here is an old post of mine. You can also search back through the Swift thread as well.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=172250

I was also wondering about internal geared hub options. If I get the redline it could bump the price up another 80-100 dollars. Is it worth it? I was told it was heavier....is there a big weight difference? What are other good hub options? What is a good 3 speed hub to use? Are there any good three speed hubs that are high quality, but for cheaper than my shimano options?

The Shimano Redline (plus the shifter and extras) is ~1590g, compared to ~1480g for a full Shimano XT setup (both figures are minus crank & BB, but include chainring & hub weight).

However, the XT figure includes a front derailleur, shifter & extra chainrings. Subtract that out and the XT weighs in at ~1060g.

An 11-34 cassette provides a 309% gear range.

A Shimano Redline 8-speed = 307%

Shimano's 7-speed Nexus = 244%

SRAM's Spectro 7-speed = 303%

SRAM's new i-Motion 9 = 350% (but not available aftermarket in the US -- yet!)

I am a firm believer in internally geared hubs. I run Rohloff Speedhubs on my & my wife's mountain bikes, have a Nexus on my street bike, and a Spectro on my Wife's cruiser.

I'd love to put an i-Motion 9 or NuVinci on my Swift. In the short time I've owned the bike, I've already dropped it resulting in a bent derailleur hanger leading to a ridiculously complicated ride, and had a couple of dropped chains. My experience with gear hubs, on the other hand, has been superb.

Thanks for the info guys. I am most likely going to give a deposit to HPM today. I have about a month until it is delivered, and during that time I need to decide what internal hub I should have the wheel built up with.

Out of the hubs that Speedub.Nate recommended, which one would be the best for more of a hilly area like western massachusetts? I am still a newbie when it comes to bicycle mechanics, gear ranges, etc...

Can anyone recommend a good brand new 3 speed hub? Are there significant price savings that I could achieve from going with a different hub(3, 4, 5, 7, 8, or 9 speed) rather than the nexus redline inter 8?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Out of the hubs that Speedub.Nate recommended, which one would be the best for more of a hilly area like western massachusetts? I am still a newbie when it comes to bicycle mechanics, gear ranges, etc...

That would depend on your fitness level and/or pain threshold. There are lots of guys that tackle hilly terrain on a singlespeed or fixie, and others who can't cope with a conventional 27 speed drivetrain.

A 300% gear range is fairly generous. I think the average cyclist will still have to work a little on the steeper hills, and may find they spin out on flat terrain.

Thanks for the info guys. I am most likely going to give a deposit to HPM today. I have about a month until it is delivered, and during that time I need to decide what internal hub I should have the wheel built up with.

Out of the hubs that Speedub.Nate recommended, which one would be the best for more of a hilly area like western massachusetts? I am still a newbie when it comes to bicycle mechanics, gear ranges, etc...

Can anyone recommend a good brand new 3 speed hub? Are there significant price savings that I could achieve from going with a different hub(3, 4, 5, 7, 8, or 9 speed) rather than the nexus redline inter 8?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Just to make things a little more complicated, if you are looking for a really wide gear range, then you might consider the SRAM Dual Drive.

Just do a few web searches and compare the prices of the different hubs. You can save some money with a 3-speed instead of an 8-speed: it appears that you can save roughly about a $100-150. But I think you are better off making sure that you get a bike that serves your needs first and then worry about the price.

Regarding the hills ...

You should consider what you ride at the moment to tackle those same hills.

If you are using the swiftfolder as a commuter or some other purpose where you will be carrying a greater load, then you might want to factor that in as well.

You might want to play with Sheldon Brown's gear calculator (sheldonbrown.com/gears) and make comparisons to your present ride.

Personally, as a consequence of a knee injury, I am a fan of low and wide gearing (I spin a lot ... RPMs 80-90 or more).

An 11-34 cassette provides a 309% gear range, a Shimano Redline 8-speed = 307%, Shimano's 7-speed Nexus = 244%, SRAM's Spectro 7-speed = 303%, SRAM's new i-Motion 9 = 350% (but not available aftermarket in the US -- yet!)
How would you convert these figures into Gear Inches, by the way?

Thx

"...Can anyone recommend a good brand new 3 speed hub? Are there significant price savings that I could achieve from going with a different hub(3, 4, 5, 7, 8, or 9 speed) rather than the nexus redline inter 8?" -Donkey Hodie

I myself have 4 (yes 4) Sturmey-Archer AW Three Speed Hubs from different years and countries on all my bikes. I first bought an old Phillips three speed Ladies Frame bike just to use around the area and found it to be quite adequete for me for the varied hilly terrain around my area (and parts of Southern California) that I ride in. I found that it is not the terrain so much as if the chainring(s) and rear cog is the size for wherever I chose to ride. I use the mid-forties (44t-46t) for my chainrings on all bikes and 13t-14t on my rear cogs. I try to balance flat terrain riding speed with hill climbling ability on each bike. I am pleased with the results and do not regret not having extra gears offered with the 5,7,8 and beyond internal hub gears whether from Sturmey-Archer, Shimano, Sram, or some other company.

The beauty of steel frame bikes is that you are not stuck with any hub whether front or rear. You can change it to a different size because of steel's ability to be "Cold Pressed." Since that probably is expensive, you should try to deterime what you need first by using the suggestions above. Then you will be assured of a good match. Or better yet, borrow or rent internal hub geared bikes and note what chainring/cog combo that worked for you (I did).

Please let us know what you selected for your new bike and enjoy it to the max! And please feel free to visit my three speed beauties on-line on my Flickr web site (see below).

Right now I ride an 80's steel Schwinn super le tour converted to single speed with my gearing at 16t-42t.
Basically this is pretty ruff on some of the hills around here, and I ride unloaded. MY bike also kills my lower back because of the lower handlebar stem and homemade bullhorns I'm using.

folder fanatic-
Is it possible to get something like a new sturmey-archer AW three speed hub and just use it as a three speed with the option to add the SRAM Dual drive at a later date?

The swift I am ordering comes standard with shimano deore V-brakes. Deore LX is the next upgrade at $36 x 2 or $72 more than stock price. The other option with the redline is a Roller Brake rear. To up grade the swift folder to a shimano nexus 8 speed SG-8R25(the Red line, which is lighter and has better gearing than the SG-8R20) is $96.

I wonder if the coaster brake option is something to consider? I also do not know about the performance of deore brakes. Would upgrading to even more expensive XT V-brakes be something I should consider?


I think I am leaning towards the shimano redline set up, but I am not sure if it will be necessary. I like the idea of a cheaper, built-like-a-tank 3 speed hub as well.

Does anybody know the make of the handlebar bag on this Swift?

http://mishuna.image.pbase.com/u34/jchiarella/upload/22391630.2003FoldsUp10520.jpg

How would you convert these figures into Gear Inches, by the way?

Thx

The range, specified in percentages, is unitless. So if the gear range is 300% and the lowest gear is 20 gear inches, then the top gear is 60 gear inches.

Is it possible to get something like a new sturmey-archer AW three speed hub and just use it as a three speed with the option to add the SRAM Dual drive at a later date?

I believe that answer is no since a single sprocket is not compatible with a hub designed to fit a cassette.

The swift I am ordering comes standard with shimano deore V-brakes. Deore LX is the next upgrade at $36 x 2 or $72 more than stock price. The other option with the redline is a Roller Brake rear. To up grade the swift folder to a shimano nexus 8 speed SG-8R25(the Red line, which is lighter and has better gearing than the SG-8R20) is $96.

I wonder if the coaster brake option is something to consider? I also do not know about the performance of deore brakes. Would upgrading to even more expensive XT V-brakes be something I should consider?


I think I am leaning towards the shimano redline set up, but I am not sure if it will be necessary. I like the idea of a cheaper, built-like-a-tank 3 speed hub as well.

Hmmm, I would focus on getting the best hubs (from an efficiency standpoint ... so if I could afford 105s then I would get 105s instead of Tiagra) and bottom bracket that I could afford. Deore v-brakes are perfectly functional.

If you can get away with the three-speed then great! But the greater number of gears, in my opinion, makes the bike more useful over a wider range of rides.

I wanted the SRAM before but it weighs a ton and it doesn't give me that much more gear range. The Nexus 8 redline is a GREAT internal hub. No other hub I've owned is as smooth or downshifts as nicely under load. My Rohloff took a long time to break-in and is still pretty noisy. The 5th gear is the 1:1 ratio so gear it to be in this gear for most of your riding for maximum efficiency.

I am not a big fan of the Dual Drive for a folder. Too easy to break some of the bits on it. It has both the best and worst of both a derailleur and internal hub.

I have learned to like the Sturmey 8 speed a lot as well. Not quite as smoot as the Nexus 8, a little more finicky to get dialed in but I LOVE the closer spaced middle 6 gears.

I have learned to like the Sturmey 8 speed a lot as well. Not quite as smoot as the Nexus 8, a little more finicky to get dialed in but I LOVE the closer spaced middle 6 gears.I like it as well. I like the fact that all the bits are protected and well out of the way.

Finicky +1. Especially downshifting; if I do this a little too quickly in 6th, it tends to get engaged on the edge of neutral because I didn't give it time to settle properly. Then a while later suddenly it loses engagement before clunking in properly.

I find the closely spaced gears a little too close, I sometimes wonder if the shift occurred. Often I shift 2 at once. But for cruising you can select the proper gear, for that it is great.

I think I am going to buckle down and go with the shimano redline 8speed hub based on all the good things that I have read about it. General consensus is that the redline is the top of the line hub under the rohloff. Does anybody have an opinion as to which three speed hub is top of the line? New ones that is.

I also need to figure out if I should go with the coaster brake hub or not. ANy opinions on weather or not to go with the coaster hub for my rear brake?

I wanted the SRAM before but it weighs a ton and it doesn't give me that much more gear range. The Nexus 8 redline is a GREAT internal hub. No other hub I've owned is as smooth or downshifts as nicely under load. My Rohloff took a long time to break-in and is still pretty noisy. The 5th gear is the 1:1 ratio so gear it to be in this gear for most of your riding for maximum efficiency.

I am not a big fan of the Dual Drive for a folder. Too easy to break some of the bits on it. It has both the best and worst of both a derailleur and internal hub.

I have learned to like the Sturmey 8 speed a lot as well. Not quite as smoot as the Nexus 8, a little more finicky to get dialed in but I LOVE the closer spaced middle 6 gears.

By SRAM, do you mean the new but still unseen (as far as I know) 9 speed internal hub? Because the SRAM Dual Drive is lighter than the Nexus 8.

Actually, I have to disagree with you regarding the gear range comparison between the Dual Drive and Nexus 8. Roughly, I calculate something like a 564% gear range for the Dual Drive with an 11-34 cassette. That is almost double the Nexus 8.

EDIT: I understand that the new version of the Dual Drive no longer has that "click box" on the outside of the internal hub. If so, then the system becomes a lot of more robust. Remember that you can get away with a much short derailer than the typical setup since there is only a single chainring up front.

folder fanatic-
"Is it possible to get something like a new sturmey-archer AW three speed hub and just use it as a three speed with the option to add the SRAM Dual drive at a later date?" -Donkey Hodie


To be honest with you, I have never even considered upgrading to a dual drive system without taking off the older rear hub-and I am not sure if it is even possible. I think you are on the right track about buying a Nexus 8 redline rear hub. I chose the AWs because of it's long, dependable history-even though they are now made in the far east. But I won't totally reject placing on a 7 or 8 speed internal hub if I was upgrading or customizing another bike in the future. And I prefer freewheels (no coaster brake). I like the more simple appouch to maintaning brakes by keeping them both separate.

Im going to go with the nexus inter 8 redline. Now to decide on which color for powder coating. Jan told me that they could match any color I could find for only a few bucks more. I've been trying to find the "right" green for a bike for a while now. I like the greens in the old 70's ten speeds, like the raleighs. I'm looking for a green that is kind shiny or metallic but not too drastic like candy orange. I'm also looking for a darker green but not a unter green, and not a john deer green. Any ideas?

The color of speedub.Nate's mountain bike is almost exactly what I am looking for. I hope you don't mind me posting a pic of your bike to show as an example of the kind of greens I want. Also, Do you know where or how I can find out exactly what this color is?

If I can get an example or sample to the guys at HPM they can probably match it dead-on.

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4547/shmk313807fbe8an5.jpg

I just put a deposit down on a Swift from Human Powered Machines! w00t!

By SRAM, do you mean the new but still unseen (as far as I know) 9 speed internal hub? Because the SRAM Dual Drive is lighter than the Nexus 8.

Actually, I have to disagree with you regarding the gear range comparison between the Dual Drive and Nexus 8. Roughly, I calculate something like a 564% gear range for the Dual Drive with an 11-34 cassette. That is almost double the Nexus 8.

EDIT: I understand that the new version of the Dual Drive no longer has that "click box" on the outside of the internal hub. If so, then the system becomes a lot of more robust. Remember that you can get away with a much short derailer than the typical setup since there is only a single chainring up front.

I am talking about the SRAM internal hub, tie iMotion 9speed. Personally after having the DD, I don't know that I'd buy it again. Like I've said before, it has both the good and the bad of both derailleurs and internal hubs. It reminds me of a saying on Wall Street; "Be a Bull or a Bear as pigs get slaughtered!"

One of the best parts for me about internal hubs is being able to shift at a stop. Since most of the time I am using it in town, this is a very big plus. I have also found that under a load, I've never found a better gearset that will downshift nice than the Nexus redline (either hub or der.).

The clikbox was a royal PITA for me on my Dahon. The 300% range of the Nexus covers 95% of the riding I need to do with no hassles. It is quiet and does its job pretty efficiently from what I can tell.

I'm going with the redline. Wavshrdr was definitely a big influence in my hub decision. Thanks for all the useful information!

Now I'm wondering which V-brakes I should go with. Any suggestions?

Are there noticeable improvements going from deore>LX>Xt?

Can disc brakes work on the swift?

I went with the XT. They have been great. I wasn't that interested in discs on the Swift as it is just something easier to get bent in the bag. On a folder I don't think they are a great idea. I would suggest going with the Sun CR-18 wheels and good spokes. I had these wheels on a 20" tandem and they are quite strong.

Now I'm wondering which V-brakes I should go with. Any suggestions?

Are there noticeable improvements going from deore>LX>Xt?


I suggest either LX, or Avid SD-5 or -7 V brakes. The XTs are unnecessarily complicated by Shimano's Parallel Push mechanism, which in my experience adds nothing to the performance of the brakes, but results in extra parts & pivot points which need to be cleaned, lubed, and eventually result in slop.

The swift is pretty much ready. All they need to know is what color I want. I am leaning towards the golden bronze. Other colors I am considering that are at no extra cost in order of most desirable are Superdust over ink black, city lights, and misty purple. For an extra fee you can pretty much get any color you want. One color I am considering is pea green(army green). the only problem is that there is no picture of this color on the website HPM linked me to. If I ordered this color I would hope that it is the same or very close to the same as the green color of the older surly long haul trucker. The website that HPM gets their colors from is here: http://www.nicindustries.com/index.php

Let the above link load for a couple of minutes and then select prismatic powders. After that click on color chart to view powder coat samples and the colors that HPM provides. I am really leaning towards either the Golden Bronze(metalic), ink black, or Pea Green(army green). Any suggestions?

The golden bronze needs to be ordered so I would have to wait for them to get it in if that is the color I want. The same would go for the pea green and any other custom or special ordered color. If I choose a color that they have in stock(black/white/misty purple/near chrome), it will be powder coated this Monday, and shipped out to me next week. They did not know how long the wait would be for the other colors.

I am leaning towards the Schwalbe big apples 2.0 inch tires. Will the larger diameter over the 1.75 inchers be a noticeable difference? good or bad? It would cost me an extra 80 bucks for the Schwalbe apples if I get them through HPM. Do you think I should go with the 1.75 tires that HPM includes in their price and then buy the apples separately once I have the bike?

The bike is being equipped with Deore LX brakes, sun cr-18 rims, and the shimano redline inter8 hub.

Pmb 2054 Crimson Purple

My personal favorite would be Hunter Green, with a classic Brooks Saddle... can't remember the specific model number, but it was a variation on the B-17, the one with the fat copper rivets.

[QUOTE=Donkey Hodie]
I am leaning towards the Schwalbe big apples 2.0 inch tires. Will the larger diameter over the 1.75 inchers be a noticeable difference? good or bad? It would cost me an extra 80 bucks for the Schwalbe apples if I get them through HPM. Do you think I should go with the 1.75 tires that HPM includes in their price and then buy the apples separately once I have the bike?

[QUOTE]

You can get Big Apples from ThorUSA for $27.95 each. That would save you a couple of bucks if you can change them yourself.

I think they also have free shipping on orders over $100 so if you need other parts, you could come out ahead.

http://www.thorusa.com/schwalbe1.htm

nice! thanks for the link!....I think that is what I will do if HPM does not discount the original tire price if I go with the big apples. I'm gonna do whatever makes the most sense in the end.

I paid for the swift, and I chose to have it powder coated Golden Bronze.

Swift folder $850.00
LX V-brake upgrade $72.00
Nexus Premium 8-speed internal Upgrade $96.00
Shipping @ $70 and handling @ $50 = $120.00
Total = $1138.00

Edit: wrong size tires in link...srry

Does this seem like a right price to you guys? I am only asking because I am wondering if the full price of the stock brakes and hub are deducted before the price of the upgrades are added.
Actually, I think the shipping of 120.00 is what threw me off guard a little bit.

Wavshrdr- If you do not mind my asking, what exactly did you pay for your Swift, and what extras did you have come with it.?

Actually, I think the shipping of 120.00 is what threw me off guard a little bit.

Peter only charged me $50 for shipping - no handling charge. (As for the rest of the bike - I just bought frame, wheels and Sturmey Archer hub, so it isn't comparable)

Yeah, I think the 120.00 for shipping might be a little over the top. I asked a local bike shop owner if they will package and ship bicycle in the U.S.. He told me that it will cost bewtween 40-60 dollars for shipping and handling through their sop, and they use UPS. He said shipping to the west coast from the east coast would be approximately 60 dollars. Oh well. It just seems like I went from buying a 850 dollar swift to a near 1200.00 dollar swift. I did not think that the upgrades i got would cost me an extra 300 dollars(and that is with out the schwalbe big apple tires that I want), but I guess 120 of that is for shipping.

Anything custom will cost you. That's why people think they save a lot by avoiding a Bike Friday, only to realize, well, they've paid the Bike Friday price. But now you supposedly have what you want; can't ask for more than that.

Yeah, I think the 120.00 for shipping might be a little over the top.
You can figure out the weight of the bike packed (steel frame Swift + upgrades + carton = maybe 40 lbs?) and go to the UPS website and calculate it.

FWIW my second-hand 2005 Xootr is coming from Colorado to California folded and packed with some extra parts, 35 lbs , cost me $50.28 to ship. That was UPS 3-day Select, and C.O.D. was $9 of that. Even if you are on the East Coast I'd feel overcharged. Or maybe HPM also built you a teak shipping crate and sent it FedEx Overnight? :rolleyes:

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/03-04/images/choice.jpg

My friend, the more you beat this to death, the less you will enjoy it. ;)

You're getting a high-quality custom steel folding bike. Your vendors are limited, you worked with these guys, you've already paid for it. Make sure it's in good shape when it arrives, enjoy it, and don't sweat the alternatives or might-have-beens or fifty-dollar-lesses.

http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/03-04/images/choice.jpg

My friend, the more you beat this to death, the less you will enjoy it. ;)

You're getting a high-quality custom steel folding bike. Your vendors are limited, you worked with these guys, you've already paid for it. Make sure it's in good shape when it arrives, enjoy it, and don't sweat the alternatives or might-have-beens or fifty-dollar-lesses.

You are right. I am not sweating it anymore. I am extremely excited about this bike. I was just taken off guard on the shipping. I knew that this bike was gonna cost me a little bit. To tell you the truth, I am surprised that it does not cost more than it does. It's pretty close to being a custom built bike. Each frame is built to order, made by the guys of HPM, and custom powder coated in their shop. Plus, it is the only available original swift in steel. When I think about it, I am getting a real good deal.

On a side note...
I am about to move into a new apartment that is on the third floor of a three family building/house. Having a folder is definitely going to be useful when lugging it up three flights of stairs everyday.

I agree that less is more...I think that what I am getting can definitely fall into this category, especially if you compare it to other bikes in this price range, and bikes in the higher price ranges.

By default I think that all folding bikes fall into the "Less is more" category.

sorry for re-post

sorry for re-post

It turns out that I will not be able to keep the swift due to financial difficulties.

Bad news for me. Good news for anyone looking to buy a brand new unused Steel Swift made by Human Powered Machines.

I am going to charge the exact same price that I was charged by HPM.

Swift folder $850.00
LX V-brake upgrade $72.00
Nexus Premium 8-speed internal Upgrade $96.00
Shipping @ $70 and handling @ $50 = $120.00
Total = $1138.00

The bike is complete and it is being powder coated golden bronze. I have not yet received an email with a shipping notification and tracking yet, so I believe it has yet to be shipped. I am going to contact HPM tomorrow, to see if they will ship the bike to the address of the person who buys it from me. Otherwise the bike will be shipped out to me this week, and I will have to charge the exact shipping price of shipping from my location to whoever buys it on top of the $1138.00 that I paid for it. Bottom line is that I need to get back exactly what I paid for the bike including shipping. If Human Powered Machines have not shipped out the Swift yet, then most likely I can arrange for them to ship it to whoever buys it from me.

This is a good way for someone to get a new steel Swift without having to wait up to three months for it to be hand-built.

I am going to post this in the for sale forum here as well. If I do not get any responses in the next few days, I will have to put it on Ebay (or maybe Boston's or New York's Craig's List..)

It looks like I have to be an upgraded member to post a for sale ad in the for sale forum. Unless I pay the 25 bucks to become an upgraded member, I will be posting an add on either Ebay, craigslist or both within the next day or so.

Either way I thought I would give my folder friends here a heads up first.

Turns out that HPM does not want to ship the swift to a third party. So if anyone is interested in getting a golden bronze powder coated Steel Swift with inter 8 redline Nexus Hub, the price will be
$1138.00 + $50 for shipping

OR if you want to buy it directly from HPM.....give them a shout and tell them Jason sent you. This way you will get the bike at cost plus whatever they charge you for shipping, and I will get a full refund.

DH,
I followed your posted journey for the past month. I am truly sorry you will not be able to acquire this bike.
I also wanted the Swift, but when I kept adding the parts it got closer and closer to what I really wanted,
a semi-portable touring bike. Which means a Bike Friday, or a Gaerlan, Airnimal, etc. That doesn't mean I don't think the Swift is a great bike. I do! But your price is just $250 shy of what my friend is paying for his Bike Friday Pocket Llama next Monday.
I will certainly look at your bike when I am out at their shop in Eugene this week. I am going to test ride their basic model. If I had not bought the Downtube, I certainly would have considered your bike.
I will try to take some photos, for you and to post on the forum.
Lyndon
Salt Lake City

Hey thanks, I appreciate it. It is not so much the cost of the bike, rather it is my financial difficulties that are making things hard for me. If I did not run into this unfortunate situation, I would stick with the swift, even though a bike friday is not much more expensive.

After this whole mess passes....I will probably end up looking at another swift, or more likely a xootr(because I do not think at that point I will have the patience to wait another three months for a custom steel swift to get built). Either way, I am determined to eventually ride something(preferably a swift/xootr) on 20 inch or 16 inch wheels and that can fold eventually.

I am in the process of trying to receive a refund from HPM for the Swift which I never had a chance to even receive in the mail. I will document how the refund process with HPM turns out. There was one member here who emailed me and told me they were willing to buy the bike in full and that they were going to go to HPM's shop in Oregon and test ride it. I will reveal more information that I know about this when I have more information about my refund from HPM.

FWIW, I think it may not be appropriate to report on your refund process to the members of this forum. If HPM does something to go above and beyond the call of duty and you wish to praise them for it, so be it.

If anything went cockeyed and you reported it back to all of us, however, how does it bear on either their business integrity, or the quality of the vehicles they build? With respect, you entered into a contract with them for a bike that was built..... as far as I can see, you owe them the money and they owe you that bike. If you try to arrange some sort of 3-party contract-swap transferring your obligations onto another, and it doesn't work out, I wouldn't fault HPM in the least for it.

Since the bike was built for you, to your specifications, I think that the best and safest route would be to take delivery of the bike, and sell it yourself. You'll probably lose money on it, but remember that it was built to *your* specifications, not anyone else's. A prospective buyer would either have to be happy with the bike exactly as-is, including the color, or fish for a price reduction from you.

bookishboy said:
"If anything went cockeyed and you reported it back to all of us, however, how does it bear on either their business integrity, or the quality of the vehicles they build? With respect, you entered into a contract with them for a bike that was built..... as far as I can see, you owe them the money and they owe you that bike. If you try to arrange some sort of 3-party contract-swap transferring your obligations onto another, and it doesn't work out, I wouldn't fault HPM in the least for it."

you are jumping to conclusions. I figured people might want to know how this turns out. If not, then thats my bad...sorry. There was never a third party arrangement, or implication of a third party being involved, other then myself trying to see if HPM might ship the bike to whoever I ended up selling it to. IF not, no big deal...just ship the bike to me and I would sell it like I stated above. It turns out that HPM was not into shipping it to a third party instead of to me.... Like I said... No big deal, just ship it to me then.

Let me ask you a question bookishboy: If a there is a transaction between a company and a customer, and no matter what the situation, the integrity of that company was called into question, are you telling me that you would not want to know about it (assuming that you might be a potential customer)? Wouldn't you at least want to know both side's opinions if not just the facts?

bookishboy said:
"Since the bike was built for you, to your specifications, I think that the best and safest route would be to take delivery of the bike, and sell it yourself. You'll probably lose money on it, but remember that it was built to *your* specifications, not anyone else's. A prospective buyer would either have to be happy with the bike exactly as-is, including the color, or fish for a price reduction from you."

I agree that this would be the best and safest route and that I should take delivery of the bike and sell it myself. That was my original intentions....In fact I was not sure if they would give me a refund or not, so I kind of figured I would have to sell it myself(hence the mini-ad a few posts above). I also did not know if they were obligated legally to give me a refund or not...I do not know if that applies to a "custom" made order or not in this country. I also do not know what constitutes "custom made" and what that means when it comes to consumer's rights regarding refunds.

I disagree, however, that I would have to take a loss on the price of the bike when trying to sell it. In fact, I believe there is a high enough demand out there for an all steel, golden bronze colored Swift Folder(with deore LX V-brakes and the Shimano redline 8 speed hub) for me to sell at the full price that I paid for it(PLUS the 120.00 shipping they charged me INCLUDING whatever I would charge extra for shipping to the buyer from my location). This is my opinion because there is up to a three month waiting list for a Steel Swift Folder according to my phone conversations with HPM, and according to posts I have read here in the folder's forum. I am sure there is more than one person who would not mind paying the extra costs in shipping for this "custom made" swift folder instead of having to wait three months for one (even if they don't get to choose the color). Either way, I agree about taking delivery of the bike myself and trying to sell it myself 100% I asked HPM if they would ship it to somebody else that I sold it to before they would ship it to me and they said no...that is fine with me. I will report later on this if I feel it is necessary. Until then please do not jump to conclusions.

Not once in this thread did I imply that HPM was at fault for anything. bookishboy is the only one to make assumptions and jump to conclusions which might imply something to do with the integrity of the company in question.

All I stated was that I would continue updating this thread with my swift experience.... And I stand by that. I will continue with this thread through the refund process...and most likely to the point when I can own a New swift folder weather it is from HPM, Peter, or from xootr.

I will not respond again to this thread until I have received my refund for my 'now-sold' Swift. There is also a chance I might not report on this other than, "refund transaction went smoothly". Just don't jump the gun and make assumptions on what you think you might know when you know nothing.

Note: Emails are wonderful forms of documentation. I suggest everyone do business communications through emails whenever possible. This way everything that is said is documented.

you are jumping to conclusions. I figured people might want to know how this turns out. If not, then thats my bad...sorry. There was never a third party arrangement, or implication of a third party being involved, other then myself trying to see if HPM might ship the bike to whoever I ended up selling it to. IF not, no big deal...just ship the bike to me and I would sell it like I stated above. It turns out that HPM was not into shipping it to a third party instead of to me.... Like I said... No big deal, just ship it to me then.

Let me ask you a question bookishboy: If a there is a transaction between a company and a customer, and no matter what the situation, the integrity of that company was called into question, are you telling me that you would not want to know about it (assuming that you might be a potential customer)? Wouldn't you at least want to know both side's opinions if not just the facts?

Based on your description so far, that's just the point.... you have no place calling their integrity into question. They've built the bike that you contracted for, and are prepared to ship it out to you. Your opinions of any "refund process" aren't important, because they don't owe you a refund (correct me if I'm wrong... if your contract with them stipulates a specific refund policy then I'll gladly eat a serving of humble pie afterwards).

I'm not jumping to conclusions; or at least not jumping very far. Since you entered into a contract with them, from what I can see you are not owed a refund of any kind (or not more than stipulated in the contract). I don't know the specifics of what you and they contracted for, but based on their literature I'd guess that you're owed:

-The bike that you agreed to pay for.
or
-Half the price back on the bike (they keep the 50% downpayment, and the bike)

The reason why I suggest that it may not be appropriate to describe your refund process, is that if you relate a negative experience, that can only impact negatively on HPM, even though they've apparently built the bike and are ready to ship it out to you.... fulfilling their contract. Why should their reputation depend on the outcome of a refund that they have no obligation to provide?

I agree that this would be the best and safest route and that I should take delivery of the bike and sell it myself. That was my original intentions....In fact I was not sure if they would give me a refund or not, so I kind of figured I would have to sell it myself(hence the mini-ad a few posts above). I also did not know if they were obligated legally to give me a refund or not...I do not know if that applies to a "custom" made order or not in this country. I also do not know what constitutes "custom made" and what that means when it comes to consumer's rights regarding refunds.


I disagree, however, that I would have to take a loss on the price of the bike when trying to sell it. In fact, I believe there is a high enough demand out there for an all steel, golden bronze colored Swift Folder(with deore LX V-brakes and the Shimano redline 8 speed hub) for me to sell at the full price that I paid for it(PLUS the 120.00 shipping they charged me INCLUDING whatever I would charge extra for shipping to the buyer from location). Either way, I agree about taking delivery of the bike myself and trying to sell it myself 100% I asked HPM if they would ship it to somebody else that I sold it to before the would ship it to me and they said no. That is fine with me. I will report later on this if I feel it is necessary. Until then please do not jump to conclusions. Ok, then it looks like this is the best solution. I'm ready to be proven wrong, but I do think that most folks consider a product to be "used" the moment it changes hands from retailer/manufacturer to the customer. I also think this perception, appropriate or not, will affect the price that you can command for it. If you put it up on ebay, for the full price you paid + $120.00 shipping (to you) + $.$$ shipping to them, and it sells..... I'll readily admit that I was mistaken about the relative worth of your bike.


Not once in this thread did I imply that HPM was at fault for anything. bookishboy is the only one to make assumptions and jump to conclusions which might imply something to do with the integrity of the company in question.

All I stated was that I would continue updating this thread with my swift experience.... And I stand by that. I will continue with this thread through the refund process...and most likely to the point when I can own a New swift folder weather it is from HPM, Peter, or from xootr.

I will not respond again to this thread until I have received my refund for my 'now-sold' Swift. There is also a chance I might not report on this other then, "refund transaction went smoothly". Just don't jump the gun and make assumptions on what you think you might know when you know nothing.Whoa now.... I'm not jumping to conclusions, and I don't think that you've cast HPM in a bad light. I'm also not trying to pick a fight with you, believe it or not. I just think that from here on out, whatever you report about any refund process really isn't my business or this forum's. If some sort of refund is worked out for you, that's great. If it isn't, and you report back on your dis-satisfaction, why should HPM suffer because of it?

I also don't think it's exactly accurate to say that "I know nothing" about your situation. I know whatever you've reported to us in this thread, and that's what I'm basing my responses off of.

Based on your description so far, that's just the point.... you have no place calling their integrity into question. They've built the bike that you contracted for, and are prepared to ship it out to you. Your opinions of any "refund process" aren't important, because they don't owe you a refund (correct me if I'm wrong... if your contract with them stipulates a specific refund policy then I'll gladly eat a serving of humble pie afterwards).

I'm not jumping to conclusions; or at least not jumping very far. Since you entered into a contract with them, from what I can see you are not owed a refund of any kind (or not more than stipulated in the contract). I don't know the specifics of what you and they contracted for, but based on their literature I'd guess that you're owed:

-The bike that you agreed to pay for.
or
-Half the price back on the bike (they keep the 50% downpayment, and the bike)

The reason why I suggest that it may not be appropriate to describe your refund process, is that if you relate a negative experience, that can only impact negatively on HPM, even though they've apparently built the bike and are ready to ship it out to you.... fulfilling their contract. Why should their reputation depend on the outcome of a refund that they have no obligation to provide?
I'm sorry, but this is completely ridiculous. Your absolutely right that HPM is under no obligation to issue a refund. However, neither is Donkey Hodie under any obligation to keep negative experiences private.

What right do you have to be telling Donkey Hodie what he should or should not discuss because of how it might impact HPM? Seems a bit one sided to me. After all, you aren't calling up HPM and asking them to issue a refund because of how them not issuing a refund might negatively impact Donkey Hodie, are you?

What I personally find inappropriate is when people try to censor opinions and experiences in order to artificially create a particular image (regardless of whether or not they feel the image they are trying to create is the "true" image). Please don't ask other posters not to contribute information which is in any way related to folding bikes. Let the facts and experiences speak for themselves.


Whoa now.... I'm not jumping to conclusions, and I don't think that you've cast HPM in a bad light. I'm also not trying to pick a fight with you, believe it or not. I just think that from here on out, whatever you report about any refund process really isn't my business or this forum's. If some sort of refund is worked out for you, that's great. If it isn't, and you report back on your dis-satisfaction, why should HPM suffer because of it?
Why would HPM suffer? Thanks to Donkey Hodie's full disclosure, anyone reading Donkey Hodie's experiences would know full well that HPM is simply following a policy which Donkey Hodie agreed to. If people are turned off by HPM's policy then that is HPM's problem, not Donkey Hodie's. All Donkey Hodie would have done is draw attention to this policy and it's potentially negative ramifications, which can only help potential customers in making a more informed decision.


I don't understand why so many members of this forum feel a need to tell others what they should and should not say. If you have a problem with Donkey Hodie's posts then don't read them. You aren't doing anyone a favor by asking other members not to post any information which isn't factually incorrect. I, for one, appreciate any information posted, so long as it isn't factually incorrect, and, in my opinion, how a company handles its policies is just as important as the policies themselves.

Keep asking people not to post their experiences and they will do just that.