Tandem Cycling - Poll: Help me decide on a bike

I don't have the luxury of testing a bike before I buy, so I am asking for a poll, what would you buy. We ride a Trek T100 so any of these are a quantum leap. Similar amounts of money $ 5000-6000 range, the '99 Team TI at the bottom of the range, The Team Ni at the top.


Santana Team Niobium
Co-Motion Speedster
'99 Santana Team Titanium

Oops, forgot to mention all three have S&S couplings, otherwise you will question the price range

And the travel cases!

I don't have the luxury of testing a bike before I buy

I hesitate to suggest a vacation to California, but spending that kind of money on something you have not ridden is not recommended. As to price, Co-Motion has all their prices on the web site, and I'd estimate that a Speedster with couplers and two cases will be closer to $6,500 ++, depending on options, sales tax if applicable and shipping.

Similar amounts of money $ 5000-6000 range, the '99 Team TI at the bottom of the range, The Team Ni at the top.

I'm sorry, but you haven't provided nearly enough information to go on.

What are the model years of the other tandems as there's no way a new Speedster is any where close to the price of a new Niobium, with or without couplers. Moreover, assuming none of these are new except for perhaps the Speedster, what type of equipment do the two Santana tandems have, and what kind of shape are they in?

You know, folks say "test ride before you buy" all the time on this forum and Tandem@Hobbes... but it's not only darned difficult for most teams to do, but also -- IMO -- an over-rated exercise. I and my partners have test-ridden _none_ of the six tandems we've owned over the past thirty years, yet we've been happy with all of them. Three of the six were custom bikes, which could not be test ridden. In a custom situation, you have to trust the builder and/or dealer to guide you to the correct geometry and configuration for your team's skills and needs. And, really, a stock bike is not that much different: As long as the bike fits you, you can trust a mainstream builder to have gotten it close enough to "right." All of the tandems that Xanti cites are general purpose bikes. With a little tweaking (gearing, saddles, 'bars, rider position), any would work for his team. The handling differences are subtle and unlikely to make or break the team's long-term satisfaction. With that in mind and assuming that they all are the correct frame size for his team, I voted for the Co-Motion. It uses conventional rear hub spacing and a standard rear BB, front derailleur clamp, headset, fork and h'bar stem -- all of which will make tweaking and upgrading that much easier. Now, the unique-to-Santana features may influence Xanti in the other direction, but no amount of test riding would change that as they are NOT things that the average team is likely to feel on a test ride (though I suppose a discriminating stoker might feel the increased Santana pedal width -- if he or she were attuned to it).

I won't vote because I do not have nearly enough tandem experience to suggest a bike. I would suggest taht you choose one that has the better support in Argentina. You have a number of posts expressing frustration at parts availability in your locale. My guess is the Co-Motion would be a little easier to find parts for than the Santana.

Co-Mo is more mainstream and has none of the idosyncracies that Santana espouses; as stated, upgrading/swapping parts can be easier.

Just to answer some of your questions.

Support in Argentina is irrelevant, either the Santana or the Co-Motion will be the only ones of their kind here, so I'm not considering it much, will have to manage with LBS and get parts in the US when I travel. It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 c, so I could find rims and tires, but 26" on an S&S coupled bike for touring/road is just not out there, I'd end up looking for a custom.

Try before you buy would me nice but not feasible, I buy now and pick up in May when I am scheduled to travel.

Like I say, coming from a Trek T100 all of these bikes will be big improvements, and I am not qulified to discriminate on the subtle points. My road bike is a Schwinn Fastback Comp, carbon fork and stays, Shimano 105. Ride maybe 5000 km/year on the two bikes. Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.

TGeek: Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07.

I'm sorry, but you haven't provided nearly enough information to go on.

what type of equipment do the two Santana tandems have, and what kind of shape are they in?

Santana Team Ti-700 with S&S couplers. Low mileage and excellent condition. Frame is polished titanium, size large, 1999 model. All original premium equipment, including: Ultegra STI controls, fr. derailleur, cranks (175/170), 9-speed cluster; XTR rear derailleur, Avid front brake with Travel Agent, Formula hydraulic rear disk brake. Plus: Shimano Flight Deck computer, Terry Fly & Butterfly seats (both with titanium rails), Santana SafeCase with pads, crank shorteners (for small stoker), SPD pedals.

Co-Motion Mocha offers 26" wheels and S&S option for about $4,770 in the USA.

Co-Motion Mocha offers 26" wheels and S&S option for about $4,770 in the USA.

I had not considered the Mocha, I am more atracted to the performance of road bikes, the T100 we have is a hybrid and seems to get some of the not so nice features of both worlds. Once I convinced myself that we should drop that sort of money I started to think of a performance bikes with less compromises, but perhaps I should consider the Mocha. The money is dictated by our world traveler state, which calls for S&S couplings forcing us to discard most of the used offering. Once we resigned ourselves to dropping $ 4-5 K, dropping 6 K is in the same ballpark. Looks like the Mocha does strike some compromises, though I wonder how much they would actually affect us. We will never race nor enter into any beauty contests but look forward to loaded touring in Europe, and unloaded road. For trips involving gravel roads in Argentina we might just keep the T100, don't need the S&S for travel here. Any thoughts Zona (the team which seams to have tried it all)?

It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 c, so I could find rims and tires, but 26" on an S&S coupled bike for touring/road is just not out there, I'd end up looking for a custom.

Not on your list but DaVinci's has a 26" coupled road tandem. I think until this year, 700c was not available. It is a different beast than the Co-Motion or Santana.

I've been going through the Co Motion vs Santana decision. What I keep hearing is that Co Motions are very responsive, and that people that ride agressively tend to like them. Kinda like Co Motion as Sports Car, Santana as luxury SUV. The couple of comments you make regarding Performance, and not liking some of the tradeoffs of the Trek, make me think that a Co Motion might be more what you're looking for.

Both the daVinci and Co-Mo Mocha

Both the daVinci and Co-Mo Mocha

. . . .continuing that post . . . (sorry for the glitch!)
Both the daVinci and Co-Mo Mocha would fit the bill, in our estimation. Both offer drop bars, 26" wheels, and S&S options.
daVinci has independent coasting, a feature that may, or may not, appeal to your team. daV uses 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings and through the use of a 'doubler' and 3 bottom brackets achieves more gears than Co-Mo. A possible advantage touring in very hilly terrain.
Frames from either company are extremely well built/finished and offer very good componentry and will lend themselves easily to touring, on-road or off-road (no single track). By swapping out smooth tires to a bit more agressive tires, pavement/off-pavement riding should be easy.
Either company will do some part swapping (drop/flat bars, appropriate shifters, etc) for a slight charge.
Have ridden the daV and Co-Mo (although not in the S&S version).
Perhaps some other Mocha or daVinci owners will chime in?

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

daVinci has independent coasting, a feature that may, or may not, appeal to your team. daV uses 4 cogs instead of 3 chainrings and through the use of a 'doubler' and 3 bottom brackets achieves more gears than Co-Mo. A possible advantage touring in very hilly terrain.


The Independent Coasting can be disabled if you do not like it.

The gearing has quite a range on it. I don't appreciate it as much as I could though because 1) I have not frequently needed the highs and lows 2) I do not have experience on the traditional tandem gearing setups. I rarely use my 32 that I will probably mount a 12-27.

We just bought a da Vinci with 26 inch wheels and S&S couplers, I am not as experienced as Zonotandem but I sure am happy, the gear range is great if you want a bike that can handle loaded touring or go fast empty. I think it is a good all around bike, ours has drop bars but I would have no hesitation touring gravel roads with it. Give them a look we found Todd a great man to deal with, answered all our questions did all the stuff we asked and gave us good information. We thought we would buy a Santana but after going to California and talking with them and watching the action at the shop both on the phone and in person my stoker and I thought we should look elsewhere. I agree that its good to test ride but I think that your right, given that its the correct size you should be fine. Through this site you can find out how each rides in comparison to each other.

Given a team weight in the 310-330 lb (yours from previous posts) range I would be inclined to consider a stiffer-than-steel aluminum frameset, and your stoker's inseam of 29" (?) suggests an overall height of 5'2"-5'4", perhaps best fit to the stoker compartment with bottom bracket spacing of 30-31". How about paying the custom frame dimension surcharge and/or getting an aluminum tandem from your preferred builder?

A custom builder would generally choose tubesets according to a teams weight and intended use of the bike. A steel bike can be made as stiff as any aluminum bike out there.

glenn

It would be nice to have 26" wheels rather than 700 cso I could find rims and tires, but 26".[snip]

Look forward to supported and unsupported tandem trips.[snip]

Both Co-Mo and Team Niobium are new stock bikes prety much as described in the manufacturers websites. Co-mo would be 07, Not sure if Team Ni 06 or 07. [snip]

Santana Team Ti-700 with S&S couplers. ... Formula hydraulic rear disk brake. Plus: Santana SafeCase with pads, crank shorteners (for small stoker), SPD pedals.[snip]


How about "none of the above?"

If someone was willing to sell you a new S&S Santana Team Niobium for the same money as a new S&S Co-Motion Speedster, I'd buy the Niobium, then I'd re-sell it for a profit and pocket a few bucks. My gut tells me that something's just not quite right with those cost numbers as an '07 Team Niobium with new cases would have an MSRP around $8k, i.e., a base model Team Niobium without couplers is ~$6,000 + $1,200 for couplers, and then add your cases. Now, if a dealer was selling you one at HIS cost, that's another story.

As for the Ti, good frame material for a travel tandem but you'd need to get rid of the Formula rear disc brake and replace it with something that will work better for world travel, like cantilever rim brakes and possibly a supplemental Avid 203mm rear disc. If it was me, I'd also sell the SafeCase and get a smaller hardcase + one softcase to make travel just a bit easier. The SafeCase is a neat concept developed before 911 that would usually go unnoticed as it was just a bit over the maximum size for checked luggage and would come in just under the 75# weight limit. As it is today, it's just a big heavy case that will carry your tandem and that's it. No room for helmets, shoes, racks, panniers or anything else that could be more easily accommodated in a pair of S&S cases that each came in under the 50# limit.

As for other comments about Santana's unique stuff, you answered those questions the way that I would have. 145mm vs 160mm rear hubs aren't commonly in stock in remote places and sealed headsets aren't problematic, nor are bottom brackets.

However, all of that said, what you've outlined for your requirements and druthers in your subsequent posts does suggest that the right tandem something along the lines mentioned by zonatandem... the 26" Mocha Co-Pilot. To me, a 26" model sounds like the ideal tandem for what you've described and meets your budget. As for taking a performance hit by not going with 700c, poppycock. That's just another myth; spec the right gearing and the differences in performance vs. 700c is negligible. We and most other "roadies" ride 700c because that's what has become popular, what consumers have come to expect, and what the manufactures logically offer. For an "uber tandem" that will be used throughout the world, 26" makes far more sense for the very reasons you mention: rims and tires are easy to come by so long as you stick with the more popular rim width and spoking.

http://www.co-motion.com/graphics/mochacp07.gif
http://www.co-motion.com/Mocha.html

Seems like your search will be broading out a bit from your original quest . . .
Picking between Co-Mocha and daVinci would be logical. Either tandem would be up to the task of on/off-pavement + loaded touring/club riding. The primary differences is in gearing and independent coasting (which can be 'disabled' as masiman stated). Either Todd at daV or Dwan/Elayne at Co-Mo will be glad to explain things further, if need be.
Decisions, decisions . . .
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

I don't know how is it in Argentina but in Mexico we did not have any problems finding 700 tubes and tires even in the smallest of towns. Tandem specific rims or wheel sets is another mater... But how hard is it to get on the internet and order parts from american distributors? Maybe it is harder for Argentina since it is not part of NAFTA.

You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.

There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.

I don't know how is it in Argentina but in Mexico we did not have any problems finding 700 tubes and tires even in the smallest of towns. Tandem specific rims or wheel sets is another mater... But how hard is it to get on the internet and order parts from american distributors? Maybe it is harder for Argentina since it is not part of NAFTA.

You may have problems getting a specific brand/model of tire, but something that will get you out of a pinch should not be a problem.

There is a lot of road bikes being sold in Mexico. American brands... made in China.

Shipping into Argentina is a hazard, sometimes things get though and sometimes they get snagged in customs, adding costs which between duties and fixed handling charges charghes by the shipper can tripple the cost of a small order. I have not been able to find quality 700 c tires wider that 25 mm. Mountain bikes outnumber roadbikes by far and hybrids are rare, the only riders of 700 c road bikes are the road race community, and they don't consume anything wider than 25 mm. Many of the road racers have an MTB as a trainer. I suspect the rest of South America is similar. Mexico might be whole different ball game I suppose, it is after all North America, have not been there in 30 years.

Picking between Co-Mocha and daVinci would be logical.

Help me out here Rudy. How does the added complexity and the additional $1,180 associated with a daVinci Global Venture make it a logical choice for the OP given everything we've learned about him vis-a-vis his on-going search for a travel tandem, other posts to this forum, intended use of this new tandem, and budget?

- Has there been any suggestion that he has a need for independent coasting? Maybe I missed it and his spouse is a much weaker cyclist or that they don't ride well together, or perhaps they have kids who'll be stoking?

- Do they need the wider than the already very wide-range of gearing that is available to loaded tourists on a standard tandem with triple cranks and a 34t rear cassette? Have you found that while doing loaded touring around the world that you and Kay ran short on short gears for climbing?

- From a mechancial standpoint, does it sound like the OP enjoys tinkering around with his bikes and would find the jack-shaft with its additional bottom bracket, two BMX freewheels, extra chain, and unique four chainring set-up something he would have no trouble getting fixed at home in Argentina or where ever his travels might take him over the life of his tandem? Yes, a daVinci can easily be converted to non-ICS by replacing the BMX freewheels with fixed cogs, but you still end up carrying around all that extra hardware in the drivetrain.

What is it -- aside from Todd being a really nice guy who offers really nice road tandems with 26" wheels and couplers -- that makes it fall to your short list?

For example, I know why I left Santana's 26" Fusion with S&S couplers off of mine... It's MSRP is an extra $850 over the Co-Motion Mocha Co-Pilot and leaves you with the aforementioned "exclusive to Santana" components. That $850 is the cost of your cases and packing materials which aren't included in any of the base MSRP numbers for these tandems. So, it's a no-brainer to me. Not so with jumping on board the daVinci suggestion which lands our friend in the $6,750 price range once you factor in the cases.

So, throw me a bone and help me understand your rationale. The daVinci is a great tandem that meets the needs of many teams, but I ain't getting the connection here.

On a 1999 bike you'll be replacing a bunch of drive train parts, some of which aren't cheap. BUt Ti is a nice material.

I have a Co Mo Supremo with S&S, and have owned Ti single racing bikes as a point of comparison. I'd still take the Co Mo. As soon as I got on it I was sold. Like the Colnagos I've raced, the Co MO just feels more like a racing machine, even compared to other high end frames.

This forum is more fun than a barrel of opinionated monkeys, and certainly more fun than my job these days, if my boss were to see me....Oh I forgot I am my boss.

I did not consider the DaVinci, I don't want to offer my stoker something she has not tried (independent coasting), has not asked for, and which might take away a point of communication between my wife and I: the feel of the chain (I am sure we have other ways to communicate, but need to treasure all of them).

As for the Co-Mo Mocha, see my next thread.

Thank you all for your help.

TG: Someone else mentioned the daV . . . it was not on the list of tandems he originally posted and we suggested the Mocha, which was not on the lis either.
daV was introduced into the mix and we opined it could be choice as it had 26" wheels, extra gears (independenty coasting may or may not be a desired) for on/off pavement riding/touring anywhere in the world. Complexity? No chainrings involved, cogs are easier to locate or canibalized in countries without much in bike shops/parts.
As for the Fusion, 'tanas have their own issues that differ from other brands.
Extra $$ are rationalized quite often when you find the bike that suit your specific needs . . .
Anyhow, seems like the daV was a flash in the pan . . .

TG: Someone else mentioned the daV . . . it was not on the list of tandems he originally posted and we suggested the Mocha, which was not on the lis either.
daV was introduced into the mix and we opined it could be choice as it had 26" wheels, extra gears (independenty coasting may or may not be a desired) for on/off pavement riding/touring anywhere in the world.


I brought in the daVinci only because Xanti had a requirement for road style, 26", S&S and thought he would have to go custome to get that.

I did not think it would be what he wanted. Even if the daV and Mocha were the same price, my guess is Xanti wants the sexier bike and that would be the CoMotion. I just wanted to point out that there were bikes that fit his criteria he had not considered.

I do not know any of the bikes mentioned in the poill so will not vote. However $6,000 is serious money and I think I would like to get a test ride on any decision at this price. In the past I have followed the "Experts" advice and been severely disapointed.

Now if it was a question in that "I have have decided to buy Tandem XYZ from manufacturer AAA- Anyone know of any pitfalls in my choice?" Then I think worthwhile answers could be forthcoming.

Sorry to be negative but I also don't want the OP to be disapointed with his eventual choice. Though I think I could be happy with any big name $6,000 bike that I had researched.

However $6,000 is serious money and I think I would like to get a test ride on any decision at this price.

Yes, test rides are strongly recommended but, as was mentioned by bikeriderdave very early on in this thread responding to DBC Steve, they are not always possible. The only tandem that we ever test rode before buying was our first tandem. Our first custom Erickson ($7200 in '98) was bought based on exchanging Emails with other owners to gather their impressions, likes & dislikes as well as extensive discussions with the builder. Our second-hand Cannondale MT3000 was a lark ($1800 in '99) and while my expectations weren't great, I assumed the design and construction was sound based on product reputation and reviews: we were more than impressed by that tandem. Our first Ventana ($5,000 in '00) was also a "find"; frame only. Never rode one but having ridden full suspension single bikes and after reading reviews, corresponding with a few owners, and talking with the builder we "went for it" and built the thing up. It was a completely different animal that our MT3000 (much more demanding and not as nimble with its very high bottom brackets), but we've come to really enjoy and appreciate what an outstanding machine it is and are now on our 2nd Ventana. Our 2nd Erickson ($7500 in '02) was also a leap of faith... the addition of S&S couplers changed the frame and the carbon fork changed the entire bike's geometry. Again, there are some differences in how tandems fit and handle and often times even a properly fitted tandem won't handle well if the buyer hasn't honestly evaluated their needs. It has been my observation that the vast majority of teams that don't wander too far off the range (a couple of newbie, out of shape empty nesters who buy a racing tandem for their first tandem would be a bad thing) will quickly adapt to what ever they buy. Mind you, I see what I can tell are bad team / bike combinations at every rally but, son of a gun, most folks are still happy with their tandems and I'll be darned if I'll burst their bubble by telling them they're kidding themselves UNLESS they come to me with questions about a problem they're having with fit, etc....



In the past I have followed the "Experts" advice and been severely disapointed.

Which "experts" gave you the bad advise, what made them experts, what did you buy that left you disappointed, and what was it about the bike that was disappointing?

Which "experts" gave you the bad advise, what made them experts, what did you buy that left you disappointed, and what was it about the bike that was disappointing?

Not on Tandems specifically- but I was looking for a new bike a few years ago, Read all the reviews-Read between the lines and decided on two bikes to look at. First was a specialised Full suspension Mountain bike. Came top in the review up against some more expensive bikes that were better specced and that was in several magazines. Luckily there was a test day offroad and I went to it. It most definitely was not the bike for me. I tried a couple of other FS bikes and it confirmed that the specialised was not my bike. Mind you- The Whyte46 That I did try out as well is still my dream bike- but just a bit expensive for me. Now the other bike was a lower value hardtail but it had not recieved a top rate review from anyone- Forks were not good enough- Wheels were going to fall apart and the own branded parts were too heavy. A year later I bought a newer and more upmarket version of the bike, after a test ride for comfort and fit.. OK- the forks were rubbish and were replaced within a year. I did not even bother about warranty. The rubbish wheels are still about but on their last legs after 6 years abuse and the own branded parts are still in one piece.

Bike magazine reviews are not the best place to choose bikes from- It will give you an idea- but the only way is to test ride the bikes. If that is not possible then you have to rely on rider reviews- not Bike mag reviews. Which is why the OP asked for the views of this Forum. I would still want a test ride though.

I would also like to say that in my posting I also said the following--

"Sorry to be negative but I also don't want the OP to be disapointed with his eventual choice. Though I think I could be happy with any big name $6,000 bike that I had researched."

You have to do this in a way on any purchase- I did it with my Dale MT. I wanted a Tandem for offroad and I wanted something proven. It was going to be a new team and I knew that I would have to change a lot of parts if it was not going to fall apart on me. I researched all the available Tandems and test rode the Dale- Realised the faults with the components---- re-negotiated the price with the shop as they would be selling the parts and I have been happy. In fact They have sold several with my spec on since as this works on our hills. But if that test ride was not comfortable for the 2 riders (Nearly forgot about that complication), then it would not have been bought.

Bike magazine reviews are not the best place to choose bikes from...

Actually, that would probably be about the worst place unless it's a very small, niche market publication which will occasionally be a bit more objective but you'll need to read between the lines to see what's not discussed to get clues regarding weaknesses. Basic rule of thumb is, diss'in your advertiser's products in your magazine reviews is a pretty good way to lose your advertisers.

Some of the on-line review boards aren't bad, but you need to watch out for "new owner reviews" where the owner is still euphoric about the new bike or tandem and gives into the halo effect where "everything" is great. Often times after several hundred miles the euphoria wears off and a more objective view of the bike or tandem will be more forthcoming. As others have noted, the more folks pay for a bike or tandem the more dramatic and long-lasting the euphoria and halo effect can be.

Best bet is to track down actual owners through builders and dealers, or the larger tandem forums like Tandem@Hobbes where you're more likely to find owners or folks who know someone who owns the tandem brand / model you're considering. BikeForums.net is OK, but there aren't nearly as many tandem owners checking the boards as there are at Hobbes. Just a slightly different crowd... which is why I lurk on both lists as well as my off-road tandem enthusiasts forum.

As others have noted, the more folks pay for a bike or tandem the more dramatic and long-lasting the euphoria and halo effect can be.
True! This is of course not limited to tandems. I plead guilty to such reaction to an Audi A4 Quattro, and it took three years (and a real beating on depreciation) to get over the halo effect and get a car more useful to our needs.

Perhaps that is also why the euphoria over our first tandem -- a 25 year old Gitane -- only lasted a week. Or perhaps it was that the bike went around a corner one rider at a time....

I plead guilty to such reaction to an Audi A4 Quattro, and it took three years (and a real beating on depreciation) to get over the halo effect and get a car more useful to our needs.


LOL, It took my buddy one accident in his A4 and the negative equity with the difference between settlement, what the car would be worth and what he owed to get rid of that effect.

Have you considered a Thorn tandem?

www.sjscycles.com

They are 26", some use Rohloff hub gearing so maintenance is much less of an issue, and they have a good reputation.

I'm trying to decide between a Thorn tandem (current frontrunner due to the Rohloff gears), a Co-Motion Mocha co-pilot and a Santana "enduro"-class tandem.

Also, Thorn have a 100-day money-back test ride guarantee; although I gess shipping would be a few hundred bucks, it is still way cheaper than the two of you travelling to test-ride, and you get to test it for 100 days rather than one or two hours.

In Australia pretty much any quality tandem is imported and expensive, I imagine the situation is similar in Argentina; country of manufacture is pretty much irrelevant, have you considered any European manufacturers?