Advocacy & Safety - Do they know? Do they care?

Have you asked any non cycling drivers if they know about the rules of the road pertaining to bikes?
They typically don't know them, they think you don't know what you are talking about also.

Are they motivated to learn or remember them? They don't care.

Are they anti bike ?
Not most of them, they don't think about bikes at all, they have no agenda, they don't even think
about it.

Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.

Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.
Not cutting a cyclist off is common sense courtesy, road rules - motorists who do it either didn't see or become aware of the cyclist or didn't care - its not ignorance of law that is the problem.

Getting harrassed for using a full lane may be the result of ignorance of law.

Al

Have you asked any non cycling drivers if they know about the rules of the road pertaining to bikes?
They typically don't know them, they think you don't know what you are talking about also.

Are they motivated to learn or remember them? They don't care.

Are they anti bike ?
Not most of them, they don't think about bikes at all, they have no agenda, they don't even think
about it.

Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.
Good topic.

Few drivers care to know the rules about anything, not just cycling on roads, beyond what is required to avoid getting tickets. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to accept it, and learn to live with it. I have. You can too. It's not that big of a deal.

What drivers do care about is getting where they are going, as quickly and efficiently as possible. The vast majority accepts that they have to slow down for stop signs, often even stop, and that they have to stop and wait at red lights. They're understandably frustrated by slow moving vehicles, including cyclists. Waiting sucks. Feeling delayed sucks. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to understand it, accept that we cause delay from time to time, and learn to live with it.

When we're in the waiting room of a crowded doctor's office we have to be patient. Does knowing that help? Somewhat. But what really helps is when the receptionist calls our name and tells us that we're next. We still have to wait, but somehow we feel better. Why? I believe it is because we have been acknowledged by someone who is controlling our delay, and they are letting us know that it won't be much longer.

Most cyclists realize how frustrated motorists can be when they encounter cyclists up ahead who they can't pass immediately. This is probably why there is so much support among cyclists for bike lanes, because they perceive bike lanes to alleviate this problem (when it's actually the space which would be there without the stripe and therefore without the bike lane, which alleviates the problems, but I digress). But what most cyclists don't seem to realize is how much of that frustration in the motorists is due to their being baffled with what to do, and how much that can be alleviated by the cyclist himself - by communicating to them that they know they are there, and that they are in control, and that they will take care of them as soon as possible. What most cyclists don't realize is how much motorists look to us for direction on what to do, and that we have the power to reduce their stress, just like the receptionist can make us feel better at the doctor's office simply by informing us that we're next.

So... Get a mirror. Pay attention to what is going on around you, including behind you. When you see a motorist approaching from behind, long before he's right behind you, think about what you can do to help him out. Is there room for them to pass you on the left safely and reasonably? If yes, look back over your right shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit right. If there is no room to safely pass you, look back over your left shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit left. Perhaps throw in a slow/stop signal. Believe it or not, they are likely to feel much better if you do one or the other, and will either pass you with plenty of space, or slow down and/or back off per your request, until you do look back over your right shoulder and move a bit right when it does become safe and reasonable for them to pass you, at which point they are likely to be smiling at you, or giving you a friendly wave or toot of the horn as they pass.

Communicate with the drivers. Traffic is a social activity. It's not a battle or war out there. It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners, partners with whom we cooperate, not battle. How you see it dictates how you behave in it, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you see it as a battle, you will act accordingly, and it will be a battle (for the most part). If you see it as dance, you will act accordingly, and it will be a dance (for the most part).

The choice is yours.

I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.

I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.

+1

I think its human nature to "convince" yourself of certain beliefs, and sometimes the beliefs have very little basis in reality. Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.

I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road. These people will not listen to rational, logical arguments because they have their minds made up and nothing will change their beliefs.

So with that in mind, in answer to your very good question, most drivers don't know, will not be convinced otherwise and certainly don't care.
Agreed. But, the good news is that it hardly matters since, in the vast majority of cases, the same drivers will treat you respectfully and fairly if you act predictably and responsibily and treat them respectfully and fairly, including communicating with them effectively (which was the point of my previous post in this thread).

It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners

Hussy. :p

Good topic.

Few drivers care to know the rules about anything, not just cycling on roads, beyond what is required to avoid getting tickets. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to accept it, and learn to live with it. I have. You can too. It's not that big of a deal.

What drivers do care about is getting where they are going, as quickly and efficiently as possible. The vast majority accepts that they have to slow down for stop signs, often even stop, and that they have to stop and wait at red lights. They're understandably frustrated by slow moving vehicles, including cyclists. Waiting sucks. Feeling delayed sucks. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to understand it, accept that we cause delay from time to time, and learn to live with it.

When we're in the waiting room of a crowded doctor's office we have to be patient. Does knowing that help? Somewhat. But what really helps is when the receptionist calls our name and tells us that we're next. We still have to wait, but somehow we feel better. Why? I believe it is because we have been acknowledged by someone who is controlling our delay, and they are letting us know that it won't be much longer.

Most cyclists realize how frustrated motorists can be when they encounter cyclists up ahead who they can't pass immediately. This is probably why there is so much support among cyclists for bike lanes, because they perceive bike lanes to alleviate this problem (when it's actually the space which would be there without the stripe and therefore without the bike lane, which alleviates the problems, but I digress). But what most cyclists don't seem to realize is how much of that frustration in the motorists is due to their being baffled with what to do, and how much that can be alleviated by the cyclist himself - by communicating to them that they know they are there, and that they are in control, and that they will take care of them as soon as possible. What most cyclists don't realize is how much motorists look to us for direction on what to do, and that we have the power to reduce their stress, just like the receptionist can make us feel better at the doctor's office simply by informing us that we're next.

So... Get a mirror. Pay attention to what is going on around you, including behind you. When you see a motorist approaching from behind, long before he's right behind you, think about what you can do to help him out. Is there room for them to pass you on the left safely and reasonably? If yes, look back over your right shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit right. If there is no room to safely pass you, look back over your left shoulder, long enough to let them know you see them, perhaps nod and/or smile, and move a bit left. Perhaps throw in a slow/stop signal. Believe it or not, they are likely to feel much better if you do one or the other, and will either pass you with plenty of space, or slow down and/or back off per your request, until you do look back over your right shoulder and move a bit right when it does become safe and reasonable for them to pass you, at which point they are likely to be smiling at you, or giving you a friendly wave or toot of the horn as they pass.

Communicate with the drivers. Traffic is a social activity. It's not a battle or war out there. It's a dance where we're constantly changing partners, partners with whom we cooperate, not battle. How you see it dictates how you behave in it, and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you see it as a battle, you will act accordingly, and it will be a battle (for the most part). If you see it as dance, you will act accordingly, and it will be a dance (for the most part).

The choice is yours.

Very well said. Will every motorist want to dance? No, but a large percentage will.

Very well said. Will every motorist want to dance? No, but a large percentage will.
I can't disagree with "large percentage", but would you also agree if it were characterized more specifically as "the vast majority with very rare exceptions"?

Take for example the fact that some huge percentage of the US population, to this day, believes that 9/11 was some kind of government conspiracy.
Was it not? All right, nevermind.


I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road.
+1.

Bike facilities are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear messsage that bicycles are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to ride a bicycle.

I see this in bicycling where a very large number of car drivers believe that: a. its not legal for bikes to ride on the road. The slightly more enlightened believe: b. Even if its not illegal for bikes to ride on the road, they should not ride on the road.


+1.

Bike facilities are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear messsage that bicycles are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to ride a bicycle.
To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.

Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to not only ride a bicycle, but use one for transportation on the roads.

2nd reply and we have powerswerve advocacy!!!

To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.

Any supporting evidence to that bs?
I know people who started riding just because BLs are available here. If there were no BL they would not start riding.



Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road.
I agree with that, but how do you put bicyclists on the roads? Unless there are bicycle facilities people do not perceive bicycles as an option for transportation. You either do not understand that, or you do not want people using bicycles, or you're only riding bike on the AS forum.

To the contrary, bike facilities are helping reinforce that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists should not be riding in space used by vehicular traffic.

Bicyclists riding on roadways in vehicular traffic lanes according to the vehicular rules of the road are helping to overcome that attitude by sending a clear message that bicyclists are lawfully present on the road, and it is normal to not only ride a bicycle, but use one for transportation on the roads.

I'm going to have to call for your sources on this one. Show me something!

I agree with that, but how do you put bicyclists on the roads? Unless there are bicycle facilities people do not perceive bicycles as an option for transportation. You either do not understand that, or you do not want people using bicycles, or you're only riding bike on the AS forum.

He's of the Forester school that only those highly-skilled, high-mileage, serious cyclists who are comfortable riding in traffic, are worth advocating for. But if you take a LAB approved course, you automagically become a worthy serious cyclist and are entitled to the full benefits of elite club membership and benefits.

He's of the Forester school that only those highly-skilled, high-mileage, serious cyclists who are comfortable riding in traffic, are worth advocating for. But if you take a LAB approved course, you automagically become a worthy serious cyclist and are entitled to the full benefits of elite club membership and benefits.
Has HH taken the course himself?

I'm going to have to call for your sources on this one. Show me something! All I did was substitute a few words in CTAC's assertion. Why not call him to task for his original assertion? Why pick on me?

Has HH taken the course himself? I've taken Road 1, Road 2 and the LCI Seminar. Yes, I passed.

However, please do not confuse some of my more controversial views with subject material from these courses.

All I did was substitute a few words in San Rensho's assertion. Why not call him to task for his original assertion? Why pick on me?

I happen agree with his assertion, so it is your job to challenge him on grounds of substance, not mine. But you cannot just challenge an assertion with another assertion.

Mr Vibrating
Now, let's get one thing quite clear. I most definitely told you!
Man
You did not.
Mr Vibrating
Yes I did.
Man
Didn't.
Mr Vibrating
Yes I did.
Man
Didn't.
Mr Vibrating
Yes I did!!
Man
Look, this isn't an argument.
Mr Vibrating
Yes it is.
Man
No it isn't, it's just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating
No it isn't.
Man
Yes it is.
Mr Vibrating
It is not.
Man
It is. You just contradicted me.
Mr Vibrating
No I didn't.
Man
Ooh, you did!
Mr Vibrating
No, no, no, no, no.
...

from Monty Python's Flying Circus (http://www.ibras.dk/montypython/episode29.htm#11)

I've taken Road 1, Road 2 and the LCI Seminar. Yes, I passed.
Ok, that explains.

I happen agree with his assertion, so it is your job to challenge him on grounds of substance, not mine. But you cannot just challenge an assertion with another assertion.

Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.

Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.
No, I don't know what you are talking about. Do you?

Sigh. You're doing it again, only this time you're taking me to task for something that you did recently (where you took my words, and substituted in your own).

Someone made an unsubstantiated assertion.
I made an equivalent unsubstantiated assertion.

The difference between what you and I did was that when you did it to me, you substituted absurdities that made it not equivalent to my original assertion. Do you know what I'm talking about? I looked briefly for it, but couldn't find it.

What can I say, the absurdities were there as a parody in order to mock your unsubstantiated claims in an earlier post. Low blow, I know. I appologize.

You thought I was serious??

Difference here is, I think, you are being serious. That's why I've got to call you on it.

Ok, that explains.

Note that he didn't attempt to deny what I said either.

Note that he didn't attempt to deny what I said either.
Why would he? He has a paper saying that he is a worthy cyclist, and he paid money for that.

He's of the Forester school that only those highly-skilled, high-mileage, serious cyclists who are comfortable riding in traffic, are worth advocating for. But if you take a LAB approved course, you automagically become a worthy serious cyclist and are entitled to the full benefits of elite club membership and benefits.
False.

(okay?)

Not cutting a cyclist off is common sense courtesy, road rules - motorists who do it either didn't see or become aware of the cyclist or didn't care - its not ignorance of law that is the problem.

Getting harassed for using a full lane may be the result of ignorance of law.

Al

Good point.


Few drivers care to know the rules about anything, not just cycling on roads, beyond what is required to avoid getting tickets. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to accept it, and learn to live with it. I have. You can too. It's not that big of a deal.

What drivers do care about is getting where they are going, as quickly and efficiently as possible. The vast majority accepts that they have to slow down for stop signs, often even stop, and that they have to stop and wait at red lights. They're understandably frustrated by slow moving vehicles, including cyclists. Waiting sucks. Feeling delayed sucks. I don't see how that's ever going to change. We have to understand it, accept that we cause delay from time to time, and learn to live with it.

The choice is yours.

Good post.

I accepted it in around 1968 - 1970. When I realized that's what happens to motorcycles every day. I would not be alive if I did not know for sure that I'm the only one who can keep me from getting in an accident, and it's possible in most cases for me to do something about it. One must never assume the drivers follow the laws and/or will see or react to you. Same for driving. I'm never surprised by what's around me. You could almost call it anticipating bad driving.

Some of the people I ride with have mirrors and still don't know what's behind them. Yet they want to wave at someone or look at the scenery. That surprises and frustrates me, it's one of my pet peeves. In the dark I know a car is coming a mile away if it's a straight country road with not much traffic. Yet some friends don't know until the headlights start illuminating the surroundings. By that time I have been riding in the left positioning my tailight in a good line of sight for a long time, and have plenty of time and room to go right if needed. With practice they could do that too.

There seem to be lots of posts about drivers having some kind of agenda or, they should know better. Sometimes it's just a rant, sometimes it's meant sarcastically, and sometimes it's meant seriously. It's hard to tell in this format once in a while. I don't think drivers think about us as much as some cyclists think they do.

False.

(okay?)

But your eyes say YES!

But your eyes say YES!


DEAL or NO DEAL ?

Howie

Have you asked any non cycling drivers if they know about the rules of the road pertaining to bikes?
They typically don't know them, they think you don't know what you are talking about also.

Are they motivated to learn or remember them? They don't care.

Are they anti bike ?
Not most of them, they don't think about bikes at all, they have no agenda, they don't even think
about it.

Will telling someone who cut you off teach them anything?
It might, but they won't tell you or admit to being wrong right there on the spot, they are automatically defensive. You will never know if it did or didn't most of the time.

Will riding in the lane teach a driver that is it legal ? How could it possibly? Unless they are interested enough to talk to you. They don't care enough to wonder why you are in the lane. They just want you to go away.Here's how one driver expressed her thoughts on the internets:

Human Road Blocks: This annoying waste of space is the one who rides their bike down a busy road when there are sidewalks on either side of the road like they have rights to the road or something. They hold up traffic and try to act like they are completely unaware of the absolute chaos going on around them that is caused by them. Sorry a****** but if you hadn't noticed, THE ROAD IS FOR CARS!!!!!!!!! Then there is the rare breed of these mind blowingly irritating people that actually use the hand signals to tell you if they will be turning etc. Seeing this gives me an almost uncontrollable urge to speed up and run over them with all of the fury of hell. To these people, clad in their disgusting bike shorts, elbow and knee pads and ridiculous looking helmets who are too good/stupid for the sidewalks - I HATE YOU SO VERY MUCH.

The only thing drivers seem to care about anymore are their phones.

Here's how one driver expressed her thoughts on the internets:

Human Road Blocks: This annoying waste of space is the one who rides their bike down a busy road when there are sidewalks on either side of the road like they have rights to the road or something. They hold up traffic and try to act like they are completely unaware of the absolute chaos going on around them that is caused by them. Sorry a****** but if you hadn't noticed, THE ROAD IS FOR CARS!!!!!!!!! Then there is the rare breed of these mind blowingly irritating people that actually use the hand signals to tell you if they will be turning etc. Seeing this gives me an almost uncontrollable urge to speed up and run over them with all of the fury of hell. To these people, clad in their disgusting bike shorts, elbow and knee pads and ridiculous looking helmets who are too good/stupid for the sidewalks - I HATE YOU SO VERY MUCH.


The "internets" LOL.

Yup... I think this represents the thoughts of many motorists out there... whether they chose to be "militant" about it or not, I have a feeling this is the general sentiment of most motorists.

Here's how one driver expressed her thoughts on the internets:

Human Road Blocks: This annoying waste of space is the one who rides their bike down a busy road when there are sidewalks on either side of the road like they have rights to the road or something. They hold up traffic and try to act like they are completely unaware of the absolute chaos going on around them that is caused by them. Sorry a****** but if you hadn't noticed, THE ROAD IS FOR CARS!!!!!!!!! Then there is the rare breed of these mind blowingly irritating people that actually use the hand signals to tell you if they will be turning etc. Seeing this gives me an almost uncontrollable urge to speed up and run over them with all of the fury of hell. To these people, clad in their disgusting bike shorts, elbow and knee pads and ridiculous looking helmets who are too good/stupid for the sidewalks - I HATE YOU SO VERY MUCH. This makes my point. Note the part I highlighted in green. :)

This contradicts my point. Note the part I highlighted in red. :eek: (edit: although, it could be she's referring to those truly irritating cyclists who signal from the side of the road and go, without looking back and making sure they have the ROW. what I do and recommend is looking back, signalling if someone is approaching, making sure they are yielding the ROW, and then move left).

Knee pads??? :roflmao:

This makes my point. Note the part I highlighted in green. :)Could be said to be describing your riding style... ;)


This contradicts my point. Note the part I highlighted in red. :eek: Imagine the nerve, using hand signals to let her know what we're doing next... :rolleyes:


Knee pads??? :roflmao::lol:

The only thing drivers seem to care about anymore are their phones. (my emphasis)

It's funny how I'm the one who supposedly sees everything in black and white.

If you toned down the hyperbole and extremism in your words and the thoughts that generate them, Diane, motorists, cycling in traffic, and perhaps life in general would probably start seeming a lot more pleasant and civil.

Could be said to be describing your riding style... ;)
Only to someone who is not paying attention to how much emphasis I give to paying attention to those behind me, and communicating with them (as opposed to acting as if they "are completely unaware of the absolute chaos going on around them") to reduce their stress.

Well, disagreements about riding style aside, that is one driver who should never, ever be allowed behind the wheel of a car again.

Riding my bicycle in traffic was so simple before joining BF, I never knew how complex such a fun form of transportation could be as stated here in this forum.

They don't know. They don't care. You are in their way.

The most discussion I engage in on this subject with non-cycling motorists is at work. There are 3 of us that regularly bike to work, so the subject does come up around the lunch table. They express a great deal of concern or distress at the thought of hitting a cyclist. They're always asking for tips on how to prevent that. Then again, they are an unusual group of human beings, what with being mental health and addictions therapists. Quite a few of their clients are on bikes too. As for the ones who aren't, well, I'm their boss, and our director is also a cyclist. They don't want to be hitting any of us, either.

The most discussion I engage in on this subject with non-cycling motorists is at work. There are 3 of us that regularly bike to work, so the subject does come up around the lunch table. They express a great deal of concern or distress at the thought of hitting a cyclist. They're always asking for tips on how to prevent that. Then again, they are an unusual group of human beings, what with being mental health and addictions therapists. Quite a few of their clients are on bikes too. As for the ones who aren't, well, I'm their boss, and our director is also a cyclist. They don't want to be hitting any of us, either.
I think they're very typical. The motives of many others might not be quite so noble, or quite as concerned, but basically the vast majority, almost without exception, would prefer not to hit anyone, including cyclists. Of course for many of them, the easiest way to ensure that from happening is to ban cyclists from the roads, or at least keep them confined to bike lanes...

I think they're very typical. The motives of many others might not be quite so noble, or quite as concerned, but basically the vast majority, almost without exception, would prefer not to hit anyone, including cyclists.
Is that supposed to be a revelation? Can you name people involved in an automobile collision who claimed it happened because they preferred to be involved in accidents? Or anybody, anywhere who has accidents because he prefers them?

Lordy! It must take a real high IQ to be able to come up with such astounding concepts.

Lordy! It must take a real high IQ to be able to come up with such astounding concepts.

So what kind of IQ does it take to make statements like the following, which I'm sure more than one BF member would agree with? Go check the commuting forum to read many stories about all the ragin' cagers trying to run cyclists over. Or just read some of Bek's posts.


The only thing drivers seem to care about anymore are their phones..

Here is what I do and it seems to work.

Know the rules of the road(government)/
Know your bicycle's and helmet's limitations and advantages.
Practice looking and listening for cars and other sights and sounds of the road.
When in heavy traffic do not change lanes unless you are certain of where the road and cars (and you) are.
Make allowances for the fact that others have their own problems also, including motorists.

Jacob

This makes my point. Note the part I highlighted in green. :)

This contradicts my point. Note the part I highlighted in red. :eek: (edit: although, it could be she's referring to those truly irritating cyclists who signal from the side of the road and go, without looking back and making sure they have the ROW. what I do and recommend is looking back, signalling if someone is approaching, making sure they are yielding the ROW, and then move left).

Knee pads??? :roflmao:

You could be right about riders that don't look back. Just like drivers that put on the turn signals as they move the car over. :mad: While I'm teaching my kids to drive.

From the tone of her post it might also mean that she just is irritated that a cyclist acts like a car and thinks it's OK to do so. And confirms this by signaling like a car.

I think that the best time to get a driver to understand the laws is if it comes up in conversation when not on the road. Of course this does not mean they care enough to remember, but it might.
The best way I know to get them to care is to invite them to go on a bike ride in the most scenic, bike friendly, place I can think of in perfect weather. This stacks the odds in my favor anyway.
Why bother if it's a place a new cyclist won't like? I have that option where I live, some don't. I also have a loaner bike so they don't have to buy or rent one. If I can get someone to come for a ride on Martha’s Vineyard Island in Massachusetts if the weather is good they want to do it again. It's almost a sure thing. That plants a seed of interest.

Automagically?

I'm going to have to adopt that. How much do I owe you? I am going to assume you are the 'Castor' and submitted the copyright? :D

they are an unusual group of human beings, what with being mental health and addictions therapists.
Oh lordy! You work with therapists and mental health workers do you? I guess this forum provides endless amusement to you.


Automagically?
Chipcom didn't invent that. It's a buzz-word from the software industry (and maybe elsewhere).

Yeah, the only non-cyclists I really ever talk to about riding are people at work. In the beginning it starts out as a wide-eyed conversation: You ride a bike to work? All the way from downtown? Even in the dark? You are (pick one) Brave | Strong | Aren't you afraid of cars? | Afraid of the dark?

I tell them I'm not afraid of cars, that it's pretty safe out there as long as you follow the rules of the road. They never believe it. I tell them there are bike lanes everywhere, there's a nice bike path. They think well the bike path's ok but what about the cell phones and the crazies? I tell them people aren't really so bad as long as you stay alert. And night? I invite them to come see my rig in the dark or else try to explain how many lights I have.

Eventually the conversation (always in the kitchen have you noticed) gets shorter and shorter to the point where it's just small-talk. Did you ride your bike today? Which bike did you ride? Did you ride your Vespa? If there's any kind of weather then they ask these questions with wide eyes again.

People who primarily drive simply have NO idea there's another way. They cannot imagine it. They don't even see the hoards of us riding all around them. They see them enough to do their job as drivers, but they never really take a look and see that we are grown adults on our way to work as engineers, professors, researchers, programmers, gardeners, dishwashers, students, middle-class and working-class alike. It simply doesn't occur to them.

Automagically?

I'm going to have to adopt that. How much do I owe you? I am going to assume you are the 'Castor' and submitted the copyright? :D

The only thing I ever claimed ownership of was a pair of old sweatsocks. If you wanna pay me for those, you gotta get em away from Thor.

The most discussion I engage in on this subject with non-cycling motorists is at work. There are 3 of us that regularly bike to work, so the subject does come up around the lunch table. They express a great deal of concern or distress at the thought of hitting a cyclist. They're always asking for tips on how to prevent that. Then again, they are an unusual group of human beings, what with being mental health and addictions therapists. Quite a few of their clients are on bikes too. As for the ones who aren't, well, I'm their boss, and our director is also a cyclist. They don't want to be hitting any of us, either. I think they're very typical. ...
Is that supposed to be a revelation? ...

Lordy! It must take a real high IQ to be able to come up with such astounding concepts. I'm sorry. I thought it was pretty obvious that I made my statement (and associated explanation) in response to the implication in Donna's post that perhaps her coworkers were atypical with respect to not wanting to hit any of us.

I apologize for not clarifying. I forgot that many of you are bike lane defenders and sometimes have difficulties comprehending that which is obvious to the rest of us.

I apologize for not clarifying. I forgot that many of you are bike lane defenders and sometimes have difficulties comprehending that which is obvious to the rest of us.

by 'rest of us' you mean 'you'.

This whole line you've taken lately trying to equate bike lane support to lower intelligence is so freakin silly that the only IQ really in question is your own. Step away from yet another wacky theory, HH.