Bicycle Mechanics - STI vs Down-tube shifters

Am I the only person who thinks that STI is way over-priced for what it gives you? They are very handy to have in a cut-and-thrust crit, but for regular riding, they are really not all that great to be worth the money they cost. They are also prone to damage if you happen to crash. (which happens when you race) So, I'm upgrading one of my velos to 9-speed and I want down-tube shifters instead of STI levers. They are available, but up here in S.W. Ontario Canada I'm having a long wait to get them. I guess I'm just venting on this, but I'd be interested in the opinions of others on this subject.:confused:

STI is about twice the cost, if you figure in the downtube shifters and brake levers will run you around $80 and 105 STI shifters will cost you $150. It is a very personal option which you prefer.

Have you considered bar end shifters? These are the type that take place of the plugs in your handlebars down low. This allows you to have the shifting on the handlebars but it is still quite cheap compared to STI shifters. Also check out these gizmos made by Kelly bike. They allow you to mount your down tube shifters on the handlebars for easier access. Check them out here: http://www.kellybike.com/2nd_xtra_takeoff.html

-Ryan

Maybe a happy compromise would be bar-end shifters. The front is friction, the rear can be switched between index or friction. Another plus is that they are a little faster and easier to use than down-tube shifters.

A set of Dura-Ace 9-speed bar-ends is about $50.00 (US) including cables, and aero brake levers are around $30.00, including cables.

i was racing a friend up a hill once, and though he is a much stronger rider than i, i won because i didn't have to reach down and pause my pedaling to shift (i have STI)

delirou5 is delirious about the pausing thing. Some of the real old friction shifters you had to ease up on the pedaling a bit to get to shift while climbing a hill; but Suntour invented the slant parellelogram rear der and that ended that problem. I used Suntour Superbe DT downtube friction shifting for 20 years now and ride in mountains all the time and I never have to pause or let go of some pedal pressure. And before I had the Superbe (top end) I had a the Suntour VGT-a middle of line der-that worked the same way and I raced on that system from 1974 to 83. And before that I had an old Campy Nuovo Record that you could still shift with just easing some of the pedal pressure but the shift would only take about 1/2 second-tops; and before that in the late 60s I rode around on Simplex with the cheap plastic cage and even on that thing you could still snag a gear climbing a hill in 1/2 a second-problem with that unit was that more times than not it just skip a gear or flop between gears!!! So yeah the Simplex could have been a problem as were all of the pre 70s stuff. But the in the 70's things changed with the high end stuff like the Nuovo that allowed them to shift faster and more accurately. But it was Suntour that really beat them all when they patented the slant parallelogram design in 1973.

Besides you can get indexed shifting for the barends as Davet mentioned. The downtube style is lighter but you do have to reach down while cranking and holding the handlebar with one hand-not a problem for someone who has done this awhile; but the barends would be easier and they are still lighter than STI. Also you can get some real light calipers from Cane Creek called the SL500 I think, that weigh about 100 grams less than Campy Record calipers-but they are a tad expensive.

has anyone tried to mount GripShifts somewhere in the middle of the drops like maybe just after the downward bend? Back in the early 90s I bought a Specialized Allez equipped with RX100 and decided I didn't want downtube shifters but couldn't afford STI either so I had the bike shop mount first generation GripShifts at the end of the drops. They worked pretty well... similar to bar-end shifters. I wonder how they'd work if they were mounted elsewhere. If you positioned them at the first curvature, you'd still be able to shift from the hoods as well as in the drops. They might be hard to get around the bends and I suppose they could interfere with throw of the brake levers too.

A technical question related to this: do bar ends and down-tube shifters come in the indexed variety?

-john

With sti you shift more. without sti you probably won't need more than 7speeds ...you just wouldn't take advantage of all the little gears between the big shifts.

Bar ends and downtubes are available in indexed systems. Not all indexed systems have compatable "non-STI" systems, but most do.

Thanks MichaelW

I've always been worried about non-indexed systems, because I can't usually hear if my chair is rubbing my rear cogs. I've always dismissed bar ends and down tube shifters on that account. Guess I have some new toys to look at!

-john

I use DT shifters on my randonneuring bike. They are lighter, shift better, are impervious to weather, and will work in friction mode if all else fails.

Dave

When standing and cranking up a hill, STI is superior because you don't have to take a hand off the bars to shift. I find that handy.

Thanks to all for your input, advice and comments. I know STI is nice, (I have it now on 3 of my 6 road bikes) but I've crashed with them and gone through the pain ($$$wise) of replacing them. I think Shimano and Campy are 'skimming the cream' on these units because the demand is there for them. I'm very comfortable using d'tube shifters and really, in my opinion, if you have to change in the middle of an effort (sprint) the faciltiy of the STI depends on where your hand are. In a flat sprint when you're on the drops, STI is good; in an up-hill grind, you may very well be on the 'tops' in which case I would argue that dropping your hand to the d-tube is no more onerous (maybe even easier) than reaching out to the brake lever. In any case, how often am I going to be sprinting up-hill? In the final analysis, I don't question that STI is a nice innovation, but I do question the cost/benefit of them, and I dislike the company policy on repairs/replacements. I think that when you pay about US$300 for brake/gear levers the least the company can do is give you a replacement at cost if you have an accident and need to replace them. Yes, I realise hell will freeze over first... but that's what I think. Anyway folks, I appreciate your responses. I'm going to go with d'tube and if I regret it I promise I will post that information here.:beer:

There is nothing wrong with DT shifters just like there is nothing wrong with a good, old car. It's just that STI/Ergo is safer because your hands stay on the bars, they are faster for racing and give you shifting options not possible with DT shifters (like shifting while climbing-as mentioned).
As for weight, if you aren't racing,the amount of weight DT shifters save is a non-issue and more than made up for with faster shifts.
They are more expensive because they are more complex to manufactuer but $80 (DT) compared to $150 doesn't sound unreasonable at all.
The only people that I see using DT shifters are on Take Offs, aero TT bars or retro-grouches (in the best sense of the term, of course). Other than that, I can't think of a good reason for them- even financially. Lance uses one on the mountains but I'm pretty sure that is due to his obsession. I think he would win without it.

Even downtube shifters have evolved over the years. Back in the 1970s and even 1980s, they were pure friction, which typically meant that it was easier to shift the levers up than down, and the little thumb screw had to be tightened once in a while. Then came the Suntour retrofriction shifters which were still friction, but with almost no pressure either way.

My older bike (1980) has Suntour retrofriction shifters that I installed in 1981 or 1982. I still use them and don't wish to change, and I might even think of using them on the new bike instead of Shimano bar-ends. I don't think these or similar shifters are still made, but one could buy simple pure friction shifters -- not the best for regular duties, but a cheap repair parts to carry around on tour "in case" the STI mechanism fails.

Newer bike (2000) has bar-end shifters. It took me a while to get used to them, but I now like them. I must say that I install my handlebars high and mostly ride from the drops, so shifting doesn't involve any real hand movement. STI might be a bit quicker for single shifts, but it is possible to shift bar-end shifters all the way in one shot.

As to what's on the market:

- All current Shimano and Campagnolo bar-end and downtube shifters allow indexed shifting. For the Shimano, the right lever allows indexed or friction shifting of the rear derailleur (turn one knob); the left lever shifts in pure friction, which means no compatibility problem with chainrings. Indexed shifting also means that one needs to get 8-speed or 9-speed shifters according to how many gears one has... unless you love friction (like I do) and keep old 8-speed shifters even with a 9-speed cassette.

Regards,

Originally posted by OB1knobe
I'm going to go with d'tube and if I regret it I promise I will post that information here.:beer: [/B]

Hey just remember, going from STI to DT is like going from an automatic to a stick shift in a car...it will take practice, but once you get the hang of it you will like it.

Here is an observation from one who normally rides either STI or shiftless (fixed gear or single speed). I borrowed a great vintage Peugeot from John E for a ride involving some hills. Down tube shifters worked great except that as we would start a downhill if I didn't think to get on the big ring immediately I was stuck with whatever I was in. Of course, this was because I very quickly picked up enough speed I was afraid to take my hands off the bar to reach down to shift. :D

I'll never give up the STI. When I stand on hills, with my hands on the hoods, I can shift without even moving my hands. That is a great enough advantage to me to make it the only thing I will use. But to each their own.

I have Shimano 105 STI on my Marinoni. Bought the bike with shifters in 1998.

I am now having problems shifting using the small lever (is that upshifting or downshifting, never sure). The lever sometimes just will not....click and I have to move it several times before it will activate the front derailler.

Talking to my LBS they said I have to try cleaning it. Over time gunk from the road, sweat from hands, rain, etc gets in there and they gradually stop working. They said to use one of those canned air cleaners (for computers) to blow around inside the shifter, then use WD40 to clean and lube.

If that doesn't help then, replacement of the shifters.

OHHH but get THIS. I cannot buy Shimano 105 8 speed anymore, which means I have to buy a 9 speed cassette and rear derailler as well as 9 speed shifters!!!

That'll only be about $300....and they are only 5 years old!!

#$@$#^#$ shimano!!!!

Digger

Originally posted by OB1knobe
Thanks to all for your input, advice and comments. I know STI is nice, (I have it now on 3 of my 6 road bikes) but I've crashed with them and gone through the pain ($$$wise) of replacing them. I think Shimano and Campy are 'skimming the cream' on these units because the demand is there for them. I'm very comfortable using d'tube shifters and really, in my opinion, if you have to change in the middle of an effort (sprint) the faciltiy of the STI depends on where your hand are. In a flat sprint when you're on the drops, STI is good; in an up-hill grind, you may very well be on the 'tops' in which case I would argue that dropping your hand to the d-tube is no more onerous (maybe even easier) than reaching out to the brake lever. In any case, how often am I going to be sprinting up-hill? In the final analysis, I don't question that STI is a nice innovation, but I do question the cost/benefit of them, and I dislike the company policy on repairs/replacements. I think that when you pay about US$300 for brake/gear levers the least the company can do is give you a replacement at cost if you have an accident and need to replace them. Yes, I realise hell will freeze over first... but that's what I think. Anyway folks, I appreciate your responses. I'm going to go with d'tube and if I regret it I promise I will post that information here.:beer:

After 30 years of DT shifting I changed to Ergo 3 years ago. I will never go back. And all levels of Campy equipment, unlike Shimano, is repairable. You need to repair an Ergo shifter, just order the part and repair it. Along with getting better quality parts in the first place.

Originally posted by RacerX
Other than that, I can't think of a good reason for them- even financially.

Main reason I use DT shifters on my tourer is that the change feels direct (short cable lengths) and as they are campag friction levers, totally reliable, which is very important on a tourer,especially abroad, and serviceable. Can't say that about STI.

I'm also so used to DT I don't think anything of taking a hand off the bars even if pushing hard.

However, I'm swapping shortly to ergo on my tourer on the basis that I'll learn to keep it in tune and being campag it will be repairable. I also hate the way the cables leave the brake hoods on STI.

My Flying Scot will remain on friction DT (I'm dumping the ShimaNO set up on it soon)

Originally posted by digger
I have Shimano 105 STI on my Marinoni. Bought the bike with shifters in 1998.

I am now having problems shifting using the small lever ... If that doesn't help then, replacement of the shifters.

OHHH but get THIS. I cannot buy Shimano 105 8 speed anymore, which means I have to buy a 9 speed cassette and rear derailler as well as 9 speed shifters!!! That'll only be about $300....and they are only 5 years old!!


First of all, except for the first generation DuraAce 8-speed derailleur, all post 199x derailleurs shift either 8-speed or 9-speed. You just need the proper shifters for the cassette and number of speeds you have. IOW, you would "just" need the 9-speed cassette, chain and shifters. BTW, no need to change chainrings for "9-speed" chainrings.


But there even is a trick to use your 9-speed cassette. I haven't tried it because I use bar-end shifters, but there seems to be a trick whereas you can fool your derailleur. You can attach the gear cable on the other side of the bolt of the derailleur, and movement by click increases. That way, you get your 9-speed shifter to shift on the 8-speed cassette until your cassette is worn and needs replacement.

More detailed instructions somewhere in the PDFs at http://www.shimano-europe.com

Regards

A few years ago, my fleet included bikes equipped with down-tubes, bar-cons, STI's, and 'thumbies'. It made for interesting rides, because I never really knew where to shift!:D

Yes, that's a problem... or maybe a "rich-people problem"...

I'm guilty of it too, as I have one 1980 touring bike with downtube racheted friction shifters and one 2000 touring bike with bar-end shifters that I use in friction (8-speed shifters with 9-speed cassette, BTW).

The fact that both bikes are deliberately set with as similar metrics as I could get might also compound the issue. At first, I thought of converting one bike, but decided against it, because I wanted to give bar-end shifters its fair chance at first. I also decided against it because:
- it was too expensive to get 7-speed bar-end shifters for the commuter (it's supposed to be a bike of low monetary value);
- I didn't like the feel of Shimano bar-end shifters when installed on the downtube and found that "proper" 9-speed downtube shifters were simply too expensive. I might have liked the Suntour racheted shifters, but they don't fit on the brazeon and didn't want to add a collar or something similar on the new bike.

Fast forward 2.5 years later. I'm now actually preferring bar-end shifters.

The only valid objection to downtube levers is Rainman's fear of removing a hand from the bars at speed. (Being chicken, I upshift a bit early when starting a descent. Being retro, I downshift a bit early when starting a climb.) For the past few months, I have been using my first set of barcons (a set of classic 1970s SunTour nonindexed ratchets) on my other Peugeot. I find them great for cycling in traffic.

I have SunTour thumb levers (in friction mode!) on my mountain bike, and greatly prefer them over Rapid-Fire, SRAM twisties, etc.

Why not just leave some extra material at the top of a threadless fork and use a clamp on arrangement like they used to put on down tubes for the shifters? That would make the shifters look like those on the old schwinn varsity. They were very handy.

Bad idea Fog.
Stem-mounted levers are ideally placed to remove your gonads in the event of a crash.

Originally posted by MichaelW
Bad idea Fog.
Stem-mounted levers are ideally placed to remove your gonads in the event of a crash.

I have heard this, but never heard of anyone actually getting hurt that way. Even so, if the levers were at the sides of an extended steering tube, then they wouldn't be in a position to do much harm. Maybe the steering tube would be, but I suspect that the tort liability crisis is more to blame for the demise of top shifters. That and a little market segmentation by Shimano.

Stem shifters, as they were called, were actually banned by the CPSC. It means we could get these in Canada and maybe in Europe (I don't know European Standards, but there are a lot), but you can't in U.S..

Technically, nothing prevents a U.S. citizen to buy stem shifters separately and install them on his own bike afterwards; the ruling just killed the manufacturer's market.

Regards,

Originally posted by mgagnonlv
Stem shifters, as they were called, were actually banned by the CPSC.

Does that mean the Schwinn TwinStiks in my parts bin (actually, a fairly full 6-drawer dresser with a drawer for each category of parts) are worth $$ on eBay?

I am guessing that Lance Armstrong uses his downtube left / STI right shifter configuration to avoid chain rub. I am not the only one in this forum who considers indexed front shifter systems to be extremely poor engineering.

. I am not the only one in this forum who considers indexed front shifter systems to be extremely poor engineering. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree 100%, John.
More proof that marketing and engineering don't mix well.