A lot of discussion around here seems to be towards folding bikes which are good for multimode commutes, packing into car trunks, or taking on aeroplanes; basically bikes made to be used in conjunction with other forms of transportation. However, some people just need to be able to fit their bikes in the coat closet and don't care very much about folded size or the bike not staying together.

Free from these requirements, folding bikes simply designed for storage seem to be lighter, cheaper, and more comfortable (by virtue of the more traditional geometries they often employ). Of these bikes, which are the best? Which offer the best performance? Which offer the best value for your money? Which are the best commuters/road/mountain/etc?

Dahon Espresso? Swift? Wally World? Bike Friday? Inquiring minds want to know.

Is there a way you can creatively store a regular road bike?

Is there a way you can creatively store a regular road bike?
Well, in my current apartment I lock my old beater to a water pipe in the basement with a note taped to it that says, "If you need this bike removed then call me at 555-5555" (I'm not really allowed to put anything in the basement, but so far I haven't had any problems).

However, I'll be moving to a new apartment in the summer and I'm almost positive I wouldn't be able to do anything similar. The ceilings are really high, so I might be able to get one of those things to hoist a bike up on the air, but it would be a real eyesore.

I'm toying with the idea of buying a new bike for commuting 20 miles (each way). Do you think I'd be much better off with a regular road bike than a fullsized folder? Do you have any creative ideas for storing a regular bike?

Upright in a closet, hanging from the front wheel? (Who needs clothes anyway, all you need are knicks and jerseys.)

Hey slvoid, you still here mate?

Yeah, why wouldn't I be here?

I was gonna say, get one of those hooks and hang your bike vertically in a corner. All you need is about 2ft x 3ft of space.

slvoid, you live in NYC, land of the $1.2 million 400 square foot studio, and you still can't imagine why an apartment might be too small for a full-sized bike? :D


Free from these requirements, folding bikes simply designed for storage seem to be lighter, cheaper, and more comfortable (by virtue of the more traditional geometries they often employ).
Well....

A light (aluminum) folding bike will be around 22 - 24 lbs, steel bikes will be 28+ lbs, so not much lighter really. In terms of component quality, a $500 folder is probably equal to, I dunno, a $400 or $450 bike, depending on the brand.

Comfort will depend on how you like to ride. My Dahon Mariner was very upright, and the handlebar height could not be adjusted without replacing some major parts. I actually find this position useful for riding on NYC streets, as I get a really good view of traffic.


I'm toying with the idea of buying a new bike for commuting 20 miles (each way). Do you think I'd be much better off with a regular road bike than a fullsized folder?
For most purposes -- including 20 miles in city traffic, folding vs 700c won't make much of a difference.

Unless you're planning to drop $1500+ on a Bike Friday, a good folding bike will be fine for anything other than fast group rides and off-road. (I'm on the fence about centuries, although I did the MS Century on my Swift last fall.)

What will make a big difference is not just storing the bike in the apartment, but also when you're out and about. Any rusty old heap on the street is still a target for bike thieves in NYC (as I know from indirect experience...). You can store the bike under your desk at work, or inside your friend's apartment while visiting, or in the corner of a bar or whatever. Less time parked on the street = fewer opportunities for the bike to be stolen.


Based on what you're saying, I'd start off by trying a Brompton at Bfold on 13th Street. It folds small and fast, has built-in suspension, internal hub gearing, built-in rack, and can be wheeled around when folded. They're a little expensive ($700+) and word has it the brakes kind of suck, but it's the only bike that I think would really fit well in a closet.

Bfold also has Xootr Swifts and Bike Fridays, so you can give those a test ride. The Swift is an excellent bike but the fold kind of sucks. Bike Fridays are optimized for travel and high performance rather than commuting.

Dahons are OK, they fold smaller than a Swift but not as small or well as a Brompton. The lower-end Bromptons are affordable ($350ish iirc) but aren't very adjustable. Several LBS's in NYC have Dahons, so it's easy to do a test ride.

Free from these requirements, folding bikes simply designed for storage seem to be lighter, cheaper, and more comfortable (by virtue of the more traditional geometries they often employ). Of these bikes, which are the best? Which offer the best performance? Which offer the best value for your money? Which are the best commuters/road/mountain/etc?

I am having trouble thinking of a folder simply designed for storage. Are you talking about folders with full size wheels?

I am having trouble thinking of a folder simply designed for storage. Are you talking about folders with full size wheels?
That was my impression from the original post. Based on just the closet storage requirement, an older Montague BiFrame might fill the bill. I've seen them go for a couple of hundred dollars on eBay.

I have heard good things about Downtube (that's a brand) folders. You can get them on Ebay.

Airnimal folding bikes ( http://www.airnimalusa.com/ ) look great, but expensive and I think unfolded not much smaller than a regular bike.

I am having trouble thinking of a folder simply designed for storage. Are you talking about folders with full size wheels?

Yeah, what else could you do with a folder with fullsized wheels?

That was my impression from the original post. Based on just the closet storage requirement, an older Montague BiFrame might fill the bill. I've seen them go for a couple of hundred dollars on eBay.

I also recall that Fuji had a similar folding bike.

That was my impression from the original post. Based on just the closet storage requirement, an older Montague BiFrame might fill the bill. I've seen them go for a couple of hundred dollars on eBay.

Well, it doesn't have to have full size wheels.

What do you guys think? Do you get more for your money by purchasing a folder will fullsized wheels if you don't need a compact fold?

I would imagine that the answer will change depending on location, due to importation costs. For example, Dahons appear to cost quite a bit more in the UK while Bromptons appear to cost quite a bit more in the US.

"However, some people just need to be able to fit their bikes in the coat closet and don't care very much about folded size or the bike not staying together.
...which are the best? Which offer the best performance? Which offer the best value for your money? Which are the best commuters/road/mountain/etc." -makeinu

When I bought my bikes, folded size as well as the ability to stay together as I place it into my closet or some other similar tight space was and still is a very critial feature in my book and all my folding bikes can fit in these tight places. But some do better than others. As for much of anything else, it is a subjective opinion on my part. The best of all is my Brompton as for accomplishing anything I throw at it or place it in.

As for living space, I live in Southern California-which is very expensive. And the only thing I can afford right now is a tiny room with a tiny closet and meager other storage. So I don't buy regular non-folding bikes anymore or even folding bikes that are over 20 inch in wheel size.

Well, it doesn't have to have full size wheels.

What do you guys think? Do you get more for your money by purchasing a folder will fullsized wheels if you don't need a compact fold?

The other part of the original description included something about standard geometries as well.

Considering that these full-size folders use standard components, racks, tires, and such, I would say yes, they do represent a better value. From what I have seen, they can also take standard drivetrains--i.e. front derailer--whereas a lot of the small wheel folders cannot.

As a prior post mentioned, with some perseverance, you can find one of these folders on EBay or Craigslist for a relatively inexpensive price. Since they are standard size, new/replacement parts are commonly available.

However, some people just need to be able to fit their bikes in the coat closet and don't care very much about folded size or the bike not staying together.

Free from these requirements, folding bikes simply designed for storage seem to be lighter, cheaper, and more comfortable (by virtue of the more traditional geometries they often employ). Of these bikes, which are the best? Which offer the best performance? Which offer the best value for your money? Which are the best commuters/road/mountain/etc?

Dahon Espresso? Swift? Wally World? Bike Friday? Inquiring minds want to know.

Go to a bike shop and see the size of folding bikes. I would find it hard to believe that a 16' 20' or 26' inch bike would NOT fit into an empty closet. You may have to clear some space for a 26' inch wheel bike but that would be the best option if multimode transport isn't important.

folding bikes are not cheaper, they are more expensive.

You could chain a regular bike outside. With the right parts selection it is not as bad an alternative as you think.

Otherwise a 20" Downtube is probably a good starter bike. Upgrade or sell after a year.

Go to a bike shop and see the size of folding bikes. I would find it hard to believe that a 16' 20' or 26' inch bike would NOT fit into an empty closet. You may have to clear some space for a 26' inch wheel bike but that would be the best option if multimode transport isn't important.
I didn't want to make this thread too much about my needs as much as about full sized folders and small apartments, but I might as well tell you what I am thinking about my personal situation.

I'm considering buying a bikefriday tikit. However, the damn thing costs $1200 and even bike friday admits that it doesn't ride quite as good as their 20 inchers. The main appeal for me is the very quick fold and the fact that it is easy to maneuver. The only other bike that seems to have as quick a fold and as much ease of maneuverability is the Strida at $500. Although the tikit is obviously a better ride, it isn't superior in all respects (for example, it's heavier and bigger). As I thought about whether or not I really need or want the better ride afforded by the tikit I realized that I'm really looking for a bike to fulfill two separate roles. On the one hand, I want bike that I can simply use around the city to bridge the gap from transit stops. The city is only 10 miles across, so in this role I probably wouldn't be riding more than a mile at a time. On the other hand, I want a bike for my reverse commute to be taken on the commuter rail and commuter bus, perhaps even forgetting about the mass transit and riding the whole 20 miles.

The tikit seems like the best compromise between these goals, but why compromise? If I buy a Strida for $500 I could blow $700 on another bike without spending more than the tikit. I could probably just buy a regular full sized bike, but I don't really want to waste so much space in my apartment, I'm not going to start commuting 20 miles without a little training anyway, even a large folder could be taken on the bus/rail in emergencies/rain, and friends/family could occasionally squeeze the large folder on the bus when traveling with me around the city. So I'm thinking a Strida plus a full sized folder might be a better option for me than a tikit.

folding bikes are not cheaper, they are more expensive.

I was talking about full sized folders being cheaper than small wheeled folders.

You could chain a regular bike outside. With the right parts selection it is not as bad an alternative as you think.

I could chain it at the rail station or at work, but not in front of my new apartment. The streets are very crowded over there and the police would probably give me a hard time. I may be able to chain it somewhere in the building's parking garage without any trouble, but I'm not sure if I can get past the gate without having an opener (which they only give to people who rent spots).

How much more value do you think I would get buying a regular bike over a full sized folder anyway?

Otherwise a 20" Downtube is probably a good starter bike. Upgrade or sell after a year.

Would you commute 20 miles each way on a downtube? How about a regular bike of the same price?

Would you commute 20 miles each way on a downtube? How about a regular bike of the same price?
I have had 5 Downtubes. 20 miles is nothing for them, including the Mini. There's a guy on here called Crankypants who's touring in Eastern Europe on the Mini. I routinely ride 40-50 miles on the weekend with my group on the DT front suspension. I have a DT that I converted into a recumbent in order to do a double century this year. They are sturdy bikes, not toys.

I regularly ride with my bro in law on my old Raleigh Twenty(I upgraded the drivetrain with a SRAM dual drive 24 speed). He rides a litespeed tuscany with ultegra drivetrain. The thing is crazy fast. I stay up with him no problem. Would I race him on it? I don't think so, but I can easily stay up with him. You can ride any distance on a 20" folder that you would on a full size bike. If you're planning to do alot of 50+ mile rides, I would suggest some sort of suspension, though. Even if it is just a pair of Big Apple tires.
Juan

Hello again makeinu,

Don't aplogized about your own needs. I think that this information provides a better insight about your unique needs and helps to better clarify those needs for all concerned. "... I'm considering buying a bikefriday tikit. However, the damn thing costs $1200 and even bike friday admits that it doesn't ride quite as good as their 20 inchers. The main appeal for me is the very quick fold and the fact that it is easy to maneuver. The only other bike that seems to have as quick a fold and as much ease of maneuverability is the Strida at $500. Although the tikit is obviously a better ride, it isn't superior in all respects (for example, it's heavier and bigger). "

You appear to be looking for specific features. Remember that the tikit is an untried, unproven bike and I tend to shy away from 1st year models until the "bugs" are worked out. I am not interested in being a paying sacrificial lamb for even a company such as Bike Friday. Strida has been around for some time. So has Brompton. It may not be "perfect" but it is the main bike in my fleet now. I find it comfortable and manueverable to what I want in a bike. I just made sure that I bought a simple, very basic "C" model and upgrade it to what I want. It is not light as a feather, but I do not expect it to be. I just like the construction and the extreme compact folding ability that this bike offers. I guess there is trade-off in everything-even folding bikes.

Aerlite-b Found at betstbikes.com

makeinu-
I was going through the same process only about a month or two back. Although I live in a fairly large apartment (by NYC standards, that is), it IS an apartment nonetheless, so size was an issue (no matter what anyone tells you...). Anyway....
I narrowed my selection to the Dahon Espreso or the Dahon Speed D7, primarily because of price and rideability (for me, anything smaller than D7's wheel base of 20" was too small). So although the espreso was closest to a "normal" size bike, I chose the D7 because I got the best of both worlds. The rideability suited me nearly as much as the espreso, yet the storage factor of the D7 was much more compact than the espreso (especially for storing away in a place that could be closed, like on the top shelf or the bottom of my coat closet). The other factor was that the D7 was much easier to carry, fold and store when transporting through the subway (still a MAJOR mode of travel for me).
Hope this helps.

Hello again makeinu. . . Remember that the tikit is an untried, unproven bike and I tend to shy away from 1st year models until the "bugs" are worked out. . .

No, don't discourage him, let him get one so he can tell the rest of us what they're like. :D

I'm not considering a tikit or anything else for a while; I'm set for folders. Anyway, the tikit looks interesting, but it's not quite what I'd want it to be for either a city bike or a touring bike, yet. We'll have to see what variations they come up with.

If I were starting over again on a budget, I'd probably go with any of Dahon's 8 speed bikes, or a Xootr Swift. One of Bike Fridays more conventional models if I could afford it. Makeinu, your idea of combining a "full sized" folder" with a Strida, for when you need something really portable sounds like a good one. As far as I'm concerned, a good folder with 20 inch wheels is full sized, but I'm sure the ones with 26 inch wheels are fine too.

You can have indy fab build you a frame with ss-couplers and it'll ride good as hell.

I managed to fit 3 road bikes comfortably in my 400 sq.ft apartment. :p

slvoid, you live in NYC, land of the $1.2 million 400 square foot studio, and you still can't imagine why an apartment might be too small for a full-sized bike? :D



Well....

A light (aluminum) folding bike will be around 22 - 24 lbs, steel bikes will be 28+ lbs, so not much lighter really. In terms of component quality, a $500 folder is probably equal to, I dunno, a $400 or $450 bike, depending on the brand.

Comfort will depend on how you like to ride. My Dahon Mariner was very upright, and the handlebar height could not be adjusted without replacing some major parts. I actually find this position useful for riding on NYC streets, as I get a really good view of traffic.



For most purposes -- including 20 miles in city traffic, folding vs 700c won't make much of a difference.

Unless you're planning to drop $1500+ on a Bike Friday, a good folding bike will be fine for anything other than fast group rides and off-road. (I'm on the fence about centuries, although I did the MS Century on my Swift last fall.)

What will make a big difference is not just storing the bike in the apartment, but also when you're out and about. Any rusty old heap on the street is still a target for bike thieves in NYC (as I know from indirect experience...). You can store the bike under your desk at work, or inside your friend's apartment while visiting, or in the corner of a bar or whatever. Less time parked on the street = fewer opportunities for the bike to be stolen.


Based on what you're saying, I'd start off by trying a Brompton at Bfold on 13th Street. It folds small and fast, has built-in suspension, internal hub gearing, built-in rack, and can be wheeled around when folded. They're a little expensive ($700+) and word has it the brakes kind of suck, but it's the only bike that I think would really fit well in a closet.

Bfold also has Xootr Swifts and Bike Fridays, so you can give those a test ride. The Swift is an excellent bike but the fold kind of sucks. Bike Fridays are optimized for travel and high performance rather than commuting.

Dahons are OK, they fold smaller than a Swift but not as small or well as a Brompton. The lower-end Bromptons are affordable ($350ish iirc) but aren't very adjustable. Several LBS's in NYC have Dahons, so it's easy to do a test ride.

In general I found folders are heavier than standard bikes. My Halfway weighs more than my mountain bike by almost 8lbs.

The advantage of my folder though is:

*More practical : it has a integrated rear rack, good fenders, and a step-through frame

*more compact: I can fold it up and stick it between the couch and wall when I get home.

*less of a component theft magnet: There are no carbon fiber, suspensions, or other gadgetry that attract those with a allen key set and a desire to make a buck.

*more fun to ride!: upright positioning is comfortable for just strolling around.

Keep in mind my folder is a 20" not near as compact as some of the bikes out there....but it's a good blend of speed, comfort and onvenience. I say go find some bike shops in your area with folders of various wheelsizes, and try them all out. You may find that a 20" may have too high a gear for your tastes (or not low enough), or that a 14" may be the opposite. After all, if the bike isn't optimal for your riding needs, then why even care if it is tiny or not?

Bottom line, go try them out! I would have never bought a folder if I didn't get pestered to try one so often.

See my analysis of what the tikit offers vs. what my present bikes offer on the "Tiket To Ride" thread. Why spend anymore money than you must on something that is already in the market?

I just bought a used Downtube VIIIH from forum member Wavshrdr for $320 shipped.

Seemed like an alright deal. What do you guys think?

I'll let you know if I get ripped off.

I just bought a used Downtube VIIIH from forum member Wavshrdr for $320 shipped.

Seemed like an alright deal. What do you guys think?

I'll let you know if I get ripped off.
It's a good deal. I just bought one off Craigslist for exactly the same amount. Wav knows a lot about bikes, he's probably maintained and improved it. I love the internal hub for casual riding!!! I did the Pine Cone modification with the front cranks. Put a 53/39 and just use the 39t chainring for better gearing.

Enjoy yours. Are you going to make any changes?

It's a good deal. I just bought one off Craigslist for exactly the same amount. Wav knows a lot about bikes, he's probably maintained and improved it. I love the internal hub for casual riding!!! I did the Pine Cone modification with the front cranks. Put a 53/39 and just use the 39t chainring for better gearing.

Enjoy yours. Are you going to make any changes?
I didn't see any VIIIHs on Craigslist. How long ago did you pick it up?

Anyway, Wav didn't improve the one he's sending me, but it's good that he knows a lot about bikes because he's doing a quick tuneup for me right now :) . Actually, he said he's selling most of his folders to get a couple of tandems from bike friday; So anyone looking to buy a used folder might want to contact him (or wait until next week when I report back about whether or not he ripped me off).

I don't think I'll be doing any modifications. Even though the components aren't top notch, it's a pretty well equipped bike and the components seem to be a good value (just like the whole bike). I may change the front chain ring like Pine Cone, but only if I feel like I need lower gears after riding it for a while.

I got mine about 2 weeks ago in Berkeley. Are you in the Bay Area also?

I agree with your statement that the bike is very rideable as is. It's a smoking deal as far as I'm concerned :D

http://cgi.ebay.com/A-Bike-Lite-Bike-Folding-Bike_W0QQitemZ170084338925QQihZ007QQcategoryZ2904QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I just bought a used Downtube VIIIH from forum member Wavshrdr for $320 shipped.

Seemed like an alright deal. What do you guys think?

I'll let you know if I get ripped off.

I think if I were Wav, I'd pass on selling you the bike... twice you post that you want to inform the group as to whether or not Wav is going to rip you off.. Wav has been a respected member of this group for quite some time and in no way is going to "rip you off"... if the bike doesn't meet your criteria, that's a whole different ball of wax and in no way will reflect on Wav... I have a new orange 05 FS for sale for $225, and I would pass if you offered me 3 bills.

Bruce

[QUOTE=slvoid]You can have indy fab build you a frame with ss-couplers and it'll ride good as hell.

I managed to fit 3 road bikes comfortably in my 400 sq.ft apartment. :p[/QUOTE

As an owner of two S&S coupled bikes, and a Swift folder, the last thing I would want to look forward to at the end of the day is breaking down an S&S bike to store it. It is an acceptable chore for travel, but on a daily basis, a bit much. I'd say find a storage situation allowing a full sized bike or pick a folder to suit your riding style. IMO, the S&S set-up is expensive and tedious for the use you are describing. I love my Bilenkys for travel, but I don't disassemble them at home. That would be too much. I do use the Swift for commuting though, and stick it in a corner of my office.

..

I just bought a used Downtube VIIIH from forum member Wavshrdr for $320 shipped

What happened to all your wants and needs! The VIIIH hardly meets the criteria you set out in earlier threads...


Give me a break. I haven't been using this forum for very long, I didn't know that Wav was a respected member of this group. In fact, I asked some other members of this group whether or not he was reputable and they couldn't tell me.

Really? Most regular/long-standing members of this forum would have told you so. I agree with Bruce that you do yourself no favours with comments like: "I'll let you know if I get ripped off." I also fully believe that the bike will be as Wav described it, unless it gets damaged in transit. If you are not satisfied with the bike, it is more likely to be because you have opted for the wrong make/model for your needs.

That aside, I am glad you have finally got a folding bike.

Give me a break. I haven't been using this forum for very long, I didn't know that Wav was a respected member of this group. In fact, I asked some other members of this group whether or not he was reputable and they couldn't tell me.



If you had bothered to read any of his many posts (all you have to do is click on his screen name) then you would have arrived at the conclusion that he's a good guy who knows what he's talking about. Wav was very helpful to me as I was working out the mods for my VIIIH. I would buy from him with complete confidence - both that he would complete the transaction and that they bike would be in as good or better condition than he discribed.

It's really bad form to trash someone for no reason. And yes, publicly questioning someone's character without reason is trashing. If he hasn't already shipped the bike, perhaps he should just return your funds.

Dealing with Wav has been excellent so far, but talk is cheap. I'm not going to give a positive recommendation until the goods are delivered. Go ahead and criticize me for being skeptical. I don't care. I think it will only make my recommendation more meaningful for everybody, including Wav, if/when Wav comes through.

The way you've phrazed your previous threads would make others think there is something Wav had ALREADY DONE to you to make you think he might me untruthful or misrepresentative of the product he sold you. If this is not the case, and it doesn't sound like it is, you should be more careful in the way you write things. After all, Wav isn't on this thread saying that he sold the bike to makeinu and he hopes that you are an honest buyer who won't smear his name by lying about the condition of the bike he sold you. That would infer that you had already done something to make him think you are dishonest.

Be as skeptical as you like, but don't write posts that infer wrong doing on someone who hasn't done anything more than sell a bike to you at a good price.

Juan

What happened to all your wants and needs! The VIIIH hardly meets the criteria you set out in earlier threads...

No bikes meet the criteria I set out in other threads. It seems that all decent riding folders are too heavy, too big, and too cumbersome to fold while all easy-to-take-along folders aren't really sufficient for riding 10 miles a day.

I wanted a bike I could use to hop around the city with the bus and I wanted a bike I could use to commute to the suburbs. The more I honed in on the kind of bike I wanted the more expensive it got. Like a frog in water I went from balking at $800 for a Brompton to considering $1200 for a tikit. I soon realized that I would be better off with a bike for each task. I bought a bike to commute to the suburbs and I'm going to look for a bike to take around the city.

Really? Most regular/long-standing members of this forum would have told you so. I agree with Bruce that you do yourself no favours with comments like: "I'll let you know if I get ripped off." I also fully believe that the bike will be as Wav described it, unless it gets damaged in transit. If you are not satisfied with the bike, it is more likely to be because you have opted for the wrong make/model for your needs.

1. I don't know why you guys keep mentioning my potential satisfaction. That has nothing to do with the reliability of Wav and I have no idea why you would suggest that I might confuse the two.
2. Perhaps if I had realized that Wav was already so well respected in this forum then I wouldn't have said anything about finding out whether or not he is reputable. But I didn't get the impression he was that well known. He has been such a pleasure to deal with so far that he's either the best online seller I've ever dealt with or he's smooth talking me into a scam. I knew he was selling other bikes, so I thought I was doing him a favor by recording my experiences for other potential buyers (if he comes through) or at least a favor for potential buyers by informing them (whether he comes through or not). In any case, I have no regrets about my comment and I don't understand why you guys are making a big deal about it. When buying a $300 item from an anonymous individual being ripped off is always a fear. If I were honestly recording my experience and didn't mention it then I would look like a naive fool and my recommendation would mean nothing. The fact that I said what I said shows I am honest and shrewd, which should only give potential buyers more confidence and help Wav in his future sales. You guys might not see it that way, but that's the way I see it and that's the way I'd like others to post recommendations. So in keeping with the golden rule ("do unto others...") that's the way I'm gonna do it.

The way you've phrazed your previous threads would make others think there is something Wav had ALREADY DONE to you to make you think he might me untruthful or misrepresentative of the product he sold you. If this is not the case, and it doesn't sound like it is, you should be more careful in the way you write things. After all, Wav isn't on this thread saying that he sold the bike to makeinu and he hopes that you are an honest buyer who won't smear his name by lying about the condition of the bike he sold you. That would infer that you had already done something to make him think you are dishonest.

Be as skeptical as you like, but don't write posts that infer wrong doing on someone who hasn't done anything more than sell a bike to you at a good price.

Juan
What I said doesn't infer anything like that and I'm very surprised at what you think it infers. Maybe it's a cultural difference, but in my opinion anyone who doesn't cautiously assume that any anonymous online seller is a potential scammer is a fool.

Let it suffice to say that I'm much more confident now that Wav will not rip me off because:
1. I interrogated Wav to my satisfaction with tons of questions. Thankfully he was very nice about it and took it in stride.
2. He already had the ideal opportunity to take the money and run, but didn't (For his protection I'd rather not discuss the details, but it happened after I posted my comment).
3. Many people are now testifying that he is reputable (I previously couldn't get such a testimony).

I'll let you know if I get ripped off.

I fail to see how this is explicitly slanderous. Although I do think that there is a subtle negative connotation. I doubt that it would upset me. I think that his worries are understandable.

It would have been nicer to write, "I will let you know how the deal went" or something of the sort.

Anyway, we should just move on (IMO).

If you had bothered to read any of his many posts (all you have to do is click on his screen name) then you would have arrived at the conclusion that he's a good guy who knows what he's talking about. Wav was very helpful to me as I was working out the mods for my VIIIH. I would buy from him with complete confidence - both that he would complete the transaction and that they bike would be in as good or better condition than he discribed.

It's really bad form to trash someone for no reason. And yes, publicly questioning someone's character without reason is trashing. If he hasn't already shipped the bike, perhaps he should just return your funds.
I did read his posts and, to be completely honest, I wondered why he was selling a bike which:
1. He said belonged to his son.
2. He claimed to like so much.
3. Whose manufacturer he seemed to have a sizeable amount of interaction with.

Quite frankly, the answers to these questions are none of my business, but Wav graciously answered all the questions I asked him. Unfortunately, it wouldn't be right for me to repeat the answers to these questions because they involve details of Wavs private life. That's is why I purposely didn't want to bring this up.

Also, publicly questioning someone's character without reason is not trashing. I'm curious at how often those of you who use the innocent-until-proven-guilty philosophy of online buying/selling get ripped off. I'm also curious if anyone else from the New York area thinks that what I said was "trashing".

I'm also curious if anyone else from the New York area thinks that what I said was "trashing".

EDIT: No, I personally do not think this is "trashing". NYC has a lot of people, so someone else almost certainly does. Anyway ...

Oh, why did I reply? I grew up in NYC.

Makeinu,

I don't think it's "trash" talking. As Invisible hand wrote, it has a negative connotation to it. You can and should IMHO be incredibly cautious when dealing with people you have never dealt with before. You can even assume they are evil money grubbing blood suckers that just want to rip you off.

It is simply bad form to write anything down about someone that may be even slightly negative until the deal is done. If you get it and it's a piece of *%&$, go ahead and knock yourself out. Use the meanest language you want to.

BTW I lived in NYC for 12 years and still work there, and why do you think there is a cultural difference between us? Could it be because my name is Juan? Once again, you should be careful the way you phrase things. If you didn't get the previous sentence, I and everyone else is wasting their time answering you,

Juan

Makeinu,

I don't think it's "trash" talking. As Invisible hand wrote, it has a negative connotation to it. You can and should IMHO be incredibly cautious when dealing with people you have never dealt with before. You can even assume they are evil money grubbing blood suckers that just want to rip you off.

It is simply bad form to write anything down about someone that may be even slightly negative until the deal is done. If you get it and it's a piece of *%&$, go ahead and knock yourself out. Use the meanest language you want to.

BTW I lived in NYC for 12 years and still work there, and why do you think there is a cultural difference between us? Could it be because my name is Juan? Once again, you should be careful the way you phrase things. If you didn't get the previous sentence, I and everyone else is wasting their time answering you,

Juan
Actually, I got you mixed up with forum member "jur" (first two letters same as juan, n looks kinds like r?), who is from Austrailia. That's why I thought there might be a cultural difference...also most of the other people giving me a hard time are in California.

In any case, I'm sorry if there was any negative connotation. I tried to say it as neutral as possible. However, I didn't want to say "I will let you know how the deal went", because I had in mind the fact that Wavshrdr is selling some other bikes and the relevant information to potential buyers is whether or not Wav is reputable. They don't care if there is some slight damage/misalignment during shipping (or whatever else might be included in "how the deal went"). If the bike gets a little beat up during shipping then that is my problem. It's not Wavs problem and it doesn't tell potential buyers anything about whether or not Wav is a good person to buy from. Potential buyers want to know that Wav will keep his word on whatever deal they happen to negotiate. How else do I say that? I guess I could say "I'll let you know when he follows through" instead of "I'll let you know if he rips me off", but the latter seems more direct to me. Is the glass half empty or is the glass half full? :p

I am suprised and disappointed at the way this thread and posts are drifting to. I myself consider me to be an upstanding and good member of this forum (even if some of you might find some things I wrote not to your personal liking). I would have felt the same way as makeinu expessed here in this forum about getting ripped off fears. I do wish he/she would have shown some more caution as to whether or not to buy used. Since he/she lives in the Baltimore area, finding a dealer to buy from should not have been too much of a problem. A good dealer would tune up and fit the bike to the purchaser. Buying a bike should be made in person if at all possible as I have stated before in other posts and on my Geocites Web site. This is to better insure of buying the right bike for you, not someone else. Plus you might need to have some warranty protection if the bike should prove defective now or in the future-and registration of the bike to you as the original purchaser and owner assures that you will be contacted directly if some sort of defect is discovered in the future. Remember we use usernames when we post. In this way, while we aim to protect ourselves from trouble roaming around out there somewhere. I don't think in of itself this could inspire very much confidence when it comes to money issues.

I managed to fit 3 road bikes comfortably in my 400 sq.ft apartment. :p
I think I need to see some pics before I accept your definition of "comfortable." :D

For the record, dealing with Wavshdr has been excellent so far. He's been more attentive than even most online businesses I've dealt with. He's been very quick to respond to all my requests. He agreed to give the bike a tune up for me. He agreed to ship out on 2 days notice (day after payment) despite the fact that he obviously has a very busy life, is currently ill, and may be facing an impending snow storm. And if all that weren't enough, he offered to assist me in claiming the remaining warranty on the bike if anything goes wrong (I didn't even ask...he offered). I'll let you guys know when the bike is finally delivered as promised.

I am suprised and disappointed at the way this thread and posts are drifting to. I myself consider me to be an upstanding and good member of this forum (even if some of you might find some things I wrote not to your personal liking). I would have felt the same way as makeinu expessed here in this forum about getting ripped off fears. I do wish he/she would have shown some more caution as to whether or not to buy used. Since he/she lives in the Baltimore area, finding a dealer to buy from should not have been too much of a problem. A good dealer would tune up and fit the bike to the purchaser. Buying a bike should be made in person if at all possible as I have stated before in other posts and on my Geocites Web site. This is to better insure of buying the right bike for you, not someone else. Plus you might need to have some warranty protection if the bike should prove defective now or in the future-and registration of the bike to you as the original purchaser and owner assures that you will be contacted directly if some sort of defect is discovered in the future. Remember we use usernames when we post. In this way, while we aim to protect ourselves from trouble roaming around out there somewhere. I don't think in of itself this could inspire very much confidence when it comes to money issues.
1. There is a Downtube dealer about an hour from here (College Park Bikes), but they don't have any of this model in stock. Furthermore, if I bought one of the bikes from them I would need to pay full retail ($400) plus shipping ($40) plus tax ($22) for a grand total of $462. That's $142 out of my pocket...almost 150% of what I paid! Even if I hated the bike I doubt I would lose anywhere near that much trying to sell it.
2. College Park Bikes does offer free tuneups for life, but it would cost me $10-15 plus about 2 hours of my time to get there and back. I'd rather just learn how to do it myself.
3. You make a good point about the fit, but it seems that downtube bikes are very adjustable, which is probably better for me right now because it will help me figure out how I want a bike to fit (I've never had a good fitting bike or even an adjustable bike).
4. Wav did promise to help me claim the remaining warranty if I needed it.

In a perfect world I'd like to buy at a local shop, but, unfortunately, most shops have never even heard of the bikes I'm most interested in and even the shops that can order them for me aren't well stocked. If the shop down the block from me had all the bikes I was considering in stock then I might consider paying a $150 premium, but as it stands it's just not worth the long trip and the poor selection.

I'll let you know 6 months from now if I have any regrets.

Guys-
One suggestion.....why don't you just let Wavshadr deal with the poster as he sees fit? It's his bike for sale and his transaction. Although you may not necessarily agree with the "advance" cynicism makeinu used when describing the transaction, I don't think he meant any harm to Wavshadr. Also, makeinu did go to great lengths to say how positive the dealings with wavshadr have been so far.
So let's see what happens. From what it looks like so far, both waveshdr and makeinu are going to both make out just fine.

makeinu,

I'm glad that the whole 'cultural difference' and the 'negative tone' was a misunderstanding. As far as your bike purchase, I hope it goes smoothly. I also hope that the bike works well for you and that even though this thread sort of went somewhere you didn't expect, that you will still feel comfortable coming back here with any questions or help that you may need.

davewnyc - If a friend or colleague of mine might even possibly be attacked, slandered, or mentioned negatively in any way, I would be there to defend them. I would also believe that anyone reading the posts would see the defense for what it is - an attempt to keep posts polite and friendly so that everyone feels comfortable.