Fifty Plus (50+) - Never thought I would live long enough to see...

This: Went into the Trek Store at luchtime. Almost every road, mt. and comfort bike under $1000 had a "Made in China" lable proudly displayed on the headtube. When I asked the sales person about it, I was given some canned talk about how they are really just built there to USA specifications and if your interested in a bike built stateside here is a nice $3000 one. But he did note that the 3k bike had imported components also.

Sad.

This is true for almost every brand of bike, except for Cannondale. And if you buy a Made in the USA Cannondale, you will get lower quality Made in China components on it than what you get on other bikes, because their frames cost more to make. That is, if you buy a $599 Trek, it will have better components than a $599 Cannondale because Cannondale has to make up for the extra cost of the frame by cheapening components to hit that price point.

Frankly the Made in China frames are pretty good. A lot of stuff made in China is good. If a company makes the investment to build a high quality factory and train their assembly people, the quality can be very good. One of my other hobbies is astronomy. 10-15 years ago the telescopes coming out of China were 3rd rate. Now they can be excellent. These require high precision manufacturing. Much harder to do right than making an aluminum frame for a sub-$1000 bicycle.

I've mentioned before that I have had a couple of occasions to speak with Trek engineers, as they are headquartered nearby. In one of those talks I asked about their Chinese aluminum frames. The guy told me that they were very pleased with the quality they were getting. If anything, it is now better than from their old USA plants. And the same for the paint jobs.

This is true for almost every brand of bike, except for Cannondale.

- and Merlin, Serotta, Seven, etc...

- are SRAM components made in the U.S.A.? (don't think so, but would like a pointer or two)...

Here in the UK- I doubt that unless you go to a Custom Frame maker- You can get a frame that is made in Europe- let alone the UK. Mind you- I have no objection to the quality- price or lightness of my Giant frame from last year. Incidentally- I thought most of the Frames are made in Taiwan. Only a technicality as it is part of China- but there is a difference.

China has become the world power in bicycles like Japan is for consumer electronics. The bicycle factories there are new, effecient and they now build for virtually every manufacturer. I have been told that many high end carbon fiber frames are now made in China because they have the best facilities. Much of the Look lineup is fabricated in China. Like it or not, this is the new world economy. Cheap labor is no longer the driving force for many of these products. Investment in the technology to absorbe an entire market is the name of the game.

China is the new Taiwan. Most of the Taiwan-based bike makers and OEMs have started outsourcing some of their manufacturing capacity to the mainland. Some of them own the mainland facilities; some don't. As maddmax indicated, cheaper labor force - - and probably more lax environmental controls on industry - - are driving the move.

This is true for almost every brand of bike, except for Cannondale.

Seems to be- check this site out...

http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328

- and Merlin, Serotta, Seven, etc...


Those companies offer sub-$1000 complete bikes?

Actually I said that cheap labor may not be the driving force although that is the favored myth in this country. Many areas of the Pacific rim are willing to invest large sums of money in modern manufacturing facilities that would put an awful lot of our "merican" companies to shame.

Environmental costs or lack thereof may still play a part, but investment and equipment is a huge part. You may have noticed if you read my bio that I am employed in the design and prototype portion of the laser business. Care to guess what the nationality of my companies largest customer is?

No judgements here, its like the weather. It just is.

I have heard a rumor that Cannondale is having high end carbon frames made in China. (one or the other)

The comments above ring true to me. Flat paned HDTV require huge investments. I hear billions. None are in the USA that I know of.
Anyone knows better?

I don't think any TVs, of any type, are made in the USA. Very few consumer electronics are. Even a lot of high-end audiophile equipment is now manufactured in Asia, with nameplates of American companies that have long histories in this country. Most of these are designed in the USA. HDTVs are largely designed by Japanese and Korean engineers.

Seems to be- check this site out...

http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328


Nice article.

It looks like the center of bike manufacturing in the USA is right here in Wisconsin, with Trek OCLV carbon frames, Gary Fisher full-suspension frames, and Waterford being made here. While a number of custom bike builders are located in other states, I would bet the combined production of these Trek and Fisher frames would dwarf their production numbers.

Although there would be a lot of Cannondale frames made somewhere in the USA. At least for now. I would be surprised if they continue to make aluminum frames here for very many more years. Hard to be price competitive.

My 2001 Trek 7600 aluminum frame was built in Wisconsin.

No mention was made of Rivendell in the article, that was a surprising omission.

I don't think any TVs, of any type, are made in the USA. Very few consumer electronics are. Even a lot of high-end audiophile equipment is now manufactured in Asia, with nameplates of American companies that have long histories in this country. Most of these are designed in the USA. HDTVs are largely designed by Japanese and Korean engineers.

Sony rear projection LCD and SXRD sets are manufactured in Mt. Pleasant Pennsylvania.

Sony rear projection LCD and SXRD sets are manufactured in Mt. Pleasant Pennsylvania.

Didn't know this. Just verified it.

It is interesting to watch Asian companies move more of their production to the USA. Just like Honda, Toyota, and other car manufacturers are doing.

Didn't know this. Just verified it.

It is interesting to watch Asian companies move more of their production to the USA. Just like Honda, Toyota, and other car manufacturers are doing.

The biggest reason for these sets being manufactured in the United States is, we are the only nation that purchases any quantity of them. Quite a few flat panels are being produced in Mexico as well.

You're about 15 years late getting indignant about this--millions of jobs have gone to foreign countries since the '90s. I just read a story the other day about x-rays and other diagnostic tests being sent to doctors outside the US for interpretation, and about people going to India and other Asian countries for surgery. The physicians there are competent to do the work, and it reduces the cost by two-thirds or so. I just had my gall bladder removed, and naturally I wanted the best doctors I could find and I realize I'm paying for knowledge and expertise, not labor. Still, it was close to $15,000 for 45 minutes in the OR plus a couple of hours in recovery. That's pretty hard to justify.

Sony rear projection LCD and SXRD sets are manufactured in Mt. Pleasant Pennsylvania.

OK, you sound definitive. I do not want to spread bad info.
Question: Are you sure that the flat panels are made in the USA? I hear such a plant cost $1.5 Billion.
Are you sure that they not just assemble?
Toyota assembles and makes some parts in the USA but much of their machine tools come from Japan. Try to find a USA owned machine tool company. That is the business I am in.:(

OK, you sound definitive. I do not want to spread bad info.
Question: Are you sure that the flat panels are made in the USA? I hear such a plant cost $1.5 Billion.
Are you sure that they not just assemble?
Toyota assembles and makes some parts in the USA but much of their machine tools come from Japan. Try to find a USA owned machine tool company. That is the business I am in.:(

Re read my post. I said rear projection, not flat panel or direct view. Some direct views are being assembled in Mexico; where the parts originate from I have no idea. Sony is the business that I am in.:)

The list of HDTVs that I found that are made in Pennsylvania are all rear-projection units. Can't say that this is a definitive list, but I didn't see any flat panel sets, either LCD or plasma.

The list of HDTVs that I found that are made in Pennsylvania are all rear-projection units. Can't say that this is a definitive list, but I didn't see any flat panel sets, either LCD or plasma.

You also are correct, I stated that Rear Projection LCD, not Direct View LCD were manufactured in Pa. Sony doesn't produce Plasma.

We're way off topic. Moderator! Move this to Foo!

We're way off topic. Moderator! Move this to Foo!

No Diegos in the TV biz?

Sony doesn't produce Plasma.

That's right, I forgot that in the moment that I typed my response. They are quite adamant about supporting LCD.

So all of these "green blob-ridden" Sony rear projection sets are made in PA, eh?

We're way off topic. Moderator! Move this to Foo!


There goes DG again, bucking for his blue star!

That's right, I forgot that in the moment that I typed my response. They are quite adamant about supporting LCD.

So all of these "green blob-ridden" Sony rear projection sets are made in PA, eh?

First generation Xbr1 problem. That has been solved with the new generation Xbr2 and A2000 SXRD'S.

China has become the world power in bicycles like Japan is for consumer electronics. The bicycle factories there are new, effecient and they now build for virtually every manufacturer. I have been told that many high end carbon fiber frames are now made in China because they have the best facilities. Much of the Look lineup is fabricated in China. Like it or not, this is the new world economy. Cheap labor is no longer the driving force for many of these products. Investment in the technology to absorbe an entire market is the name of the game.

This is an interesting take as 13 Chineese bicycle mfgs. went bankrupt last year as reported in the WSJ.

The link to "Where is my bicycle made" was great.

I guess I was just taken aback by the dominant USA manufacturer of bicycles going this route. As one LBS owner I know said, "This is a Trek town"(he no longer sells the brand).

I own several Taiwan built bikes and the are fine in the quality department. I just can not get past laying out $1,000 for a bike from China.

I just can not get past laying out $1,000 for a bike from China.

If it is well made, has good components, and would cost $1250 if made in the USA, then there's really no problem. Unless you insist upon made in the USA.

So I'm guessing you have even bigger problems with the $3000+ carbon bikes that are made in China.

First generation Xbr1 problem. That has been solved with the new generation Xbr2 and A2000 SXRD'S.

And, at least for the A2000, replaced with the color uniformity / purple haze problem. I see that a number of class action suit web pages are popping up for both the XBR1 and A2000. Rumors are that an A2020 is coming out with fixes incorporated.

Hard to tie this back into biking, except to say that it is likely that many Sony employees are cyclists.

It is interesting to watch Asian companies move more of their production to the USA. Just like Honda, Toyota, and other car manufacturers are doing.If you'll note, USA plants for Toyota, etc. are assembly plants only. They're not going to let any real manufacturing happen on their product over here.

That's changing too. They are moving more and more of the parts manufacturing over here. The current Acura TL Type-S now has 70% of its parts made in North America. In fact, some of the cars from Toyota and Honda have more American made parts than GM/Ford/Chrysler cars do.

Tying this back to biking, perhaps this tread holds some hope that bike manufacturing could move back at some time. But if it does, it would likely be to highly automated plants with small workforces. It'll be tough to undercut the costs from those new Taiwan plants though. And shipping costs on frames is relatively low and simple as compared to car & truck parts.

- are SRAM components made in the U.S.A.? (don't think so, but would like a pointer or two)...

According to this:

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/SRAM-Corporation-Company-History.html

SRAM continues to have a large manufacturing plant in the Chicago area, as well as in Taiwan, Ireland, Mexico, Portugal, the Netherlands and Germany. Pretty impressive. That's a lot of parts being made.

I recently priced a Trek Madone and a LeMond Victoire from the same dealer. Both bikes had the same equipment, wheels, DuraAce all the way...everything except the frame. The Madone was OCLV carbon and the Lemond was not, although it was also carbon. The Lemond was made in Asia.

The difference......$2,000 less for the LeMond. With my kind of riding am I really gonna notice?

Trek has done a tremendous job of branding their bikes since Lance A started cleaning up. The sticker prices show it. Most folks don't know that their Trek is mostly built in Asia. And excepting for the Shimano or Campy stuff...its built with in-house parts (Bontrager).

That's an interesting comparison, given that you are buying from the same manufacturer, Trek. I know the OCLV frames do cost more to manufacture, and those are now almost the only thing they build here in the states.

It isn't unusual for a product's cost to rapidly escalate for that last iota of performance. It may well be true that it costs Trek $1000-$1500 more to build their strongest, lightest frame using their most advanced carbon fiber manufacturing processes. And for those not needing that level of performance, they outsource the frames for their less costly Treks and LeMonds to a plant where they can significantly cut production costs.

This is what we would want companies to offer us. A choice between a very, very good frame at a more reachable price, or top-of-the-line for a lot more for those who are willing to pay for it.

Overall, I have found Trek's prices to be in-line with other companies. When I spec'ed out hybrids from $250 to $1000, Trek's bikes were very price competive all across the range. Likewise for their $600-$1000 road bikes. Can't speak for $1500+ bikes as I haven't rigourously compared them.

I wonder if Trek/LeMond is having this superlight, high-end frame manufactured in Taiwan? It doesn't say anything in the article about where it is made. If it is Taiwan, then we have a $7700 Made in China bike now available.

http://www.roadcyclinguk.com/news/article/mps/UAN/2088/v/1/sp/

Tom, I agree with you. It is an amazing difference considering Lemond is Trek. Its just my opinion, but it seems as if the high dollar bike market is Trek's highest margin product. Of course, this is what you would expect. I think the $2000 Trek bikes have about a 20-30% premium in their price, just my opinion of course.

When you think about high end bicycles I wonder if there are comparisons between the bike industry as it is now, and the PC industry of the mid-80's. If you look at the Bike Direct website and see a steel 30 speed all-Ultegra (down to the bottom bracket) bike for $1300, or a Dura-Ace shift equipped bike that looks amazingly like the older Madone frames for $2,000 it makes you wonder if BD, or someone like them, will use the same type marketing that Dell brought to computers.

This is not a plug for BD.

This is an interesting take as 13 Chineese bicycle mfgs. went bankrupt last year as reported in the WSJ.

The link to "Where is my bicycle made" was great.

I guess I was just taken aback by the dominant USA manufacturer of bicycles going this route. As one LBS owner I know said, "This is a Trek town"(he no longer sells the brand).

I own several Taiwan built bikes and the are fine in the quality department. I just can not get past laying out $1,000 for a bike from China.

Just possibly a 48.5% tax imposed by the EU to protect Continental bicycle manufacturers has something to do with this. This tarrif is presently imposed on bicycles made in mainland China and Vietnam. Investigations are ongoing to extend the penality to Taiwan.

We're way off topic. Moderator! Move this to Foo!

OK, OK, we need to get this topic back to bikes.
The point was, that big capital equipment outlays are going overseas because of unfavorable conditions in the USA. That includes CF making equipment for bikes (see, here it is), mass producing equipment for bike parts (such as Shimano makes), but also Flat panel TV, Cameras and we are getting out of the car making business as fast as possible.
I am curious to see where that leads to and hope I live to see it balancing out.
Can anyone here imagine a Trillion Dollar in Treasury bonds we gave to the Chinese? (for all that stuff)

Those companies offer sub-$1000 complete bikes?

- no... but according to the 2007 VeloNews Buyers Guide i just got in the mail today, an 'affordable' road bike is in the $2,500.00 to $3,500.00 price range...

(paid $2500 new for my Merlin)....

If it is well made, has good components, and would cost $1250 if made in the USA, then there's really no problem. Unless you insist upon made in the USA.

So I'm guessing you have even bigger problems with the $3000+ carbon bikes that are made in China.

Who said I had a problem with any of this? It was an observation about what that All-American company Trek is doing.

Who said I had a problem with any of this? It was an observation about what that All-American company Trek is doing.

Well, you said, "I just can not get past laying out $1,000 for a bike from China." I interpreted that as meaning that you had a "problem" in paying $1000 for a bike from China. When there are in fact many, many >$1,000 bikes being made in China. For the most part, you will be hard-pressed to find many sub-$2000 bikes which are not made in China.

This is true for many "all-american" bike companies, including Trek, Schwinn, Giant, Marin, Specialized, and just about everyone else - except for Cannondale. RANS, the recumbent and crank forward bike company, makes most of their frames in the USA. But that is a fairly low-volume company as compared to the others I listed.

It would be interesting to see a graph of what percentage of bikes are made in China plotted against the price of those bikes. I suspect a fairly high percentage of $3000 - $4000 bikes are now made there. And that tail might extend up to around $10,000. At below $1000, the number is probably up around 95%.

A company like Trek is likely faced with the decision whether to sell a USA-made bike at $699, or an exact replica of it that is China-made for $599. Ultimately this decision comes down to what American customers want. If the customers value USA-made bikes, seek to find this out, and willingly pay the difference, then you're going to see companies selling USA-made bikes. But if they want to get the most bang for their buck, they are going to buy the best value. That's going to be Made in China bikes at the $500, $1000, $1500, $2000, & some of the higher price points.

I thought one of the great turning points that illustrated the movement of product manufacturing to China was when Lenovo bought out IBM's PC division. What could have been any more American than IBM in the 1960s, 70s, and 80s? Now not only are IBM PCs & laptops not made in the USA, the product line is owned by a Chinese company.

The main things I look for in a bike is Does it work to my satisfaction? and can I afford it? I may be british but I have a downer on the big UK manufacturers as they have in the main- tried to stay in the popular market and have not made performance bikes. Then you have other companies that Made a good bike in the 50's- where they got their good name- but have not progressed greatly since that time.

Every bike I have had has been foreign, and I have been buying bikes for 16 years. The main difference I have noticed in that 16 years is that bikes have got cheaper- and they work better. My latest bike cost $800 and is a dream to ride- In comparison to my first real bike that cost $1400 in 93 and although good at the time, was rubbish.

I don't care where a bike or parts that are on it originate from. Providing it works. Modern bikes do and if they are made in a big factory in China- then it does not affect me. What it does affect is my wallet and my riding enjoyment.

Here are pictures of '07 LeMond Spine frames being made in Waterloo Wi. May be the last year though.

Own a ariZona carbon fiber tandem built from USA c/f (made in Washington state) and built by an American builder in Peoria, AZ.
Compnentry is another matter, very few are USA made and you'll not be able to build an American bike with all American components.
Designed in the US is not the same as made in the US.
C'dale and Litespeed even outsource some of their frames! No worse than Ford trucks coming from Mexico.
Cheaper labor . . . but price$ do not reflect that . . . somebody is making $$$$!

The good news, larger bike shops make most of their profits selling bikes in the $1,500 to $4,000 range. And, the majority of Trek models, and all but one Cannondale model in that price range are made in Wisconsin and in Pennsylvania.

I've seen estimates that Trek or Cannondale could cut the cost of building a bike that retails for $2,000 by about $50 by moving production to communist-occupied portions of China. But, in the $2,000 price range, that added $50 of production cost is not a "make or break" deal. Sadly, with bikes in the $800 price range, adding $50 to the cost of production is the difference between making a profit, or making a loss.

Nice article.

It looks like the center of bike manufacturing in the USA is right here in Wisconsin, with Trek OCLV carbon frames, Gary Fisher full-suspension frames, and Waterford being made here. While a number of custom bike builders are located in other states, I would bet the combined production of these Trek and Fisher frames would dwarf their production numbers.

Although there would be a lot of Cannondale frames made somewhere in the USA. At least for now. I would be surprised if they continue to make aluminum frames here for very many more years. Hard to be price competitive.

My 2001 Trek 7600 aluminum frame was built in Wisconsin.

No mention was made of Rivendell in the article, that was a surprising omission.

My 1983 Detel 2000 was made in Green Bay.Great year round riding conditions up there that even surpass Ohio.Thank God I own hockey gear.

What did the (alleged )weasel do to your big blue star?

- and Merlin, Serotta, Seven, etc...

- are SRAM components made in the U.S.A.? (don't think so, but would like a pointer or two)...


Hey, don't forget Waterford / Gunnar.

Seriously, I understand what oilman is saying. Remember when the only things we knew about China were that everyone had to carry a little red book, and Americans were referred to "imperialist running dogs?" It's amazing how time has changed things.

It is pretty sad how we cannot even manufacture a bicycle for the masses in this country anymore.

Here are pictures of '07 LeMond Spine frames being made in Waterloo Wi. May be the last year though.

I may have to see if I can go on a tour of the Waterloo facility sometime this year.

Stupid question for any engineer types here:

Is it even possible to manufacture a good quality bicycle in this country any more? A bicycle that:

Has a light weight frame of chrome moly steel, light alloy rims and components, and is built for comfortable riding? I mean a bike for the masses, one that has a five speed internal gear hub, so as to make it easy to ride, and could retail for about $400.00? In other words, a bicycle will get more people riding. The Joe Breeze "Freedom" is kind of what I had in mind.

--Sighs heavily-- As someone pointed out, this is the new world economy, like it or not. Heck, with the exception of New Balance, not a single athletic shoe is made here. (and N/B does produce many of their lower end shoes overseas, but contract plants)

It is pretty sad how we cannot even manufacture a bicycle for the masses in this country anymore.

We could, but not for the same price as the Chineses. Its simply economics.

Its not sad, its just the economic reality of every country and their people doing what they do best. If the average American worker were willing to live in a 2 room house with 6 people (as in China) and had a standard of living like the Chinese, then you could build them here. But they don't.

We could, but not for the same price as the Chineses. Its simply economics.

Its not sad, its just the economic reality of every country and their people doing what they do best. If the average American worker were willing to live in a 2 room house with 6 people (as in China) and had a standard of living like the Chinese, then you could build them here. But they don't.

Your message is clear, let us do what we do best.
However, issuing one trillion IOU's to the Chinese is mortgaging the future of our kids, is it not?
Is that the best we can do or just stupidity?
I cannot fix this but my available brainpower cannot see the sense in this.
Perhaps start another war and not pay those IOU's? Scary thought!