Mountain Biking - Which is considered the best over-all rear suspension??

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum and really excited about finding this forum.

I currently have a semi-hybrid bike (Marin Urban series) and looking in to getting a second bike: a full-fledged mountain bike with both suspensions. Riding will be both mild to moderate terrain as well as some downhill.

What do you guys consider as the "best overall" rear suspension layout as far as MT Bikes are concerned? I know that this is quite a general question....but need to get some feedback from experts outhere. One of the bike that I'm considering in Specialized with the FSR suspension.

Thanks.

Christopher

The best XC-style full suspension is the Santa Cruz Blur (VPP) and Titus Racer-X (horst link).
Specialized are ok- above average. It's not just the design but the execution too- that's what makes the two so great.

Not sure about freeride or dh rigs.

Wow - you may very well start a war with that question! Seriously, do a search, and you'll learn a lot. From what I've read, the FRS stuff seems to work well, but I've not ridden one.

I do have a Santa Cruz Blur on order. I can tell you from an all-day demo ride that this is a great suspension for all-mountain riding.

Okay ..... let the wars begin!!! ;)

4 bar with horst link is generally considered the standard which to measure (thats the specialize fsr BTW). Very little bob, insignifigant brake jack and very active suspension. In reality for the average person when it comes to quality vs dollar and cents this is the best suspension around (Norco has rights to it as does Intense and Kona/Giant use very similar designs as well).

Otherwise depending on your size and the type of terrain it can varry quite a bit. It also depends what you want. I want an active suspension and care nothing about pedal bob (when I have a dually I would expect it to bob) but a burly strong suspension would be my concern. The best overall depends on what riding you want to do but in general the fsr is the best.

VPP is a newer standard which also works incredibly well. I believe they have used it successfully on dh/freeride and xc rigs. It is a design that creates a near vertical path of the travel of the rear wheel. This cuts back on brake jacking and bobbing. Its another design I like but is quite a bit more expensive as it is NEW. :)

Wow! Thanks fellas....more homework now!

I'm close to 200 pounds and want to minimize pedal bobing...I have to test-ride most of these bikes to see how much I like them. My Specialized local dealer is really nice to me ($$$ I guess) but I have to be more open minded and do some research. The VPP suspension looks interesting. My budget is under $2500 with disc brakes (hopefully).

Thanks!

Christopher

look at titusti.com
They have a page that explains all the common suspension designs.

It really depends on the type of riding. If you want a bike that's going to be super efficient obviously you're going to lose some small bump performance and overall plushness. But if you want a plush, really comfortable bike you're going to sacrifice a little bit of efficiency. I really like my Cannondale Jekyll. It's a good compromise between the two. I use it for some light freeriding and it's held up well. I've hit 5-6 foot drops on it with no complaints so far. The only thing I don't like is the Fatty fork. While it's smooth and VERY plush, I wish it had more travel. So if you can find one, get one with the Lefty fork. The Jekyll doesn't bob badly when set up well, and it isn't overly heavy but can still take a beating. I'd highly recommend it.

I ride an Intense Uzzi SL which is a "licensed" FSR design. Very well executed process! The frame welds are sweet and a lot of CNC'd components of the frame (including the cable stops).

Of all the full suspension designs I've tried (most of them) the Horst 4-bar is definately my preferred choice. I tend to shy away from single pivots because I like a bike to be fully active. I've ridden the new VPP design and was very impressed, and may consider this when they come out with a longer travel design (more like 6", not 10" that's available on SC's DH frame). I know SC is designing a FR VPP design but has not released it as of yet.

Be careful, there are many 4-bars that are not "true" Horst designs. They change the rear pivot location from in front of the dropout to the top of the drop-out. This design will "lock-out" when braking and cause "Brake-Jack" where the seat comes up when braking down a steep descent.

The rocker arm designs common on Kona's bike work in a similar fashion, but not quite as well as the FSR design.

To summarize, the FSR design is what everyone else compares to!

IOW, if you get it, you won't be disappointed!

L8R

yall are talkin out your buts!!!! gt i drive, it rules! none of this horse link stuff just plain and simple good suspension! (before you post about pacific or how much gt sucks just remember my dad can beat up your dad!) I have owned and rode a few fs bikes, and for me the i drive is the shiznit. no bob or jack just smooth liteweight, cushy, reliable, nonwarrentyable suspension. Gts i drive consists of blah blah blah blah blah blah FUN non power robbing bob! thats my teck rant( i would probably get more teckie if i could figure out how to post links and stuff! so i could back up my words but i cant so just belive me im right get a gt!)

Jim311


While it's smooth and VERY plush, I wish it had more travel. So if you can find one, get one with the Lefty fork. The Jekyll doesn't bob badly when set up well, and it isn't overly heavy but can still take a beating. I'd highly recommend it.

I don't know. My husband is close to 190 pounds and has major trouble with the lefty fork on his Jekyll. (You rode with him at the Horse Park). He had a major crash going down a nothing hill and the front tire folded up in a way that looked as if the side the lefty fork was attached to had suffered abnormal stress and forces. I don't think the kinks have been worked out yet. You may want to PM Sam. (I'm at work right now.)

The best suspension ...hmmmmm... let me think, let me think:rolleyes: ... your knees. Your knees are the best suspension. Anything else is just added comfort.

Actualy I go w/Mael on this one.

:beer:

Originally posted by cbhungry
Jim311



I don't know. My husband is close to 190 pounds and has major trouble with the lefty fork on his Jekyll. (You rode with him at the Horse Park). He had a major crash going down a nothing hill and the front tire folded up in a way that looked as if the side the lefty fork was attached to had suffered abnormal stress and forces. I don't think the kinks have been worked out yet. You may want to PM Sam. (I'm at work right now.)


I wasn't aware of any durability issues. I only weigh 140 pounds, so breaking stuff is abnormal for me :)


I just want more travel on my Jekyll. The front and rear don't seem balanced at all. I often bottom out the front fork, but I don't think I've ever bottomed out the rear, even dropping 5+ feet to flat. Or maybe it's just so smooth in the rear that I don't notice. I'd heard good things about the Lefty.

:beer:

Wow, what a bunch of rad group!!! I'm even begining to sound like you guys!

I'm going down to a local Titus/Santa Cruz dealer to do some comparo with the Specialized. It's going to take some hands-on ride demo to try it out myself.

Any local MTB events in SoCal in the near future?? I'd like to take a look and see what's being used out there...but I know that ultimately, I will have to make the decision and its accoriding to my riding habits and style...

FSR, VPP, and Titus...?!!

now, if you guys want some cool military watches to go with your rides (not one of those fancy compass electro gadget) check out my friend bob....email me for weblink.

Ride on!!!

Christopher

p.s. If you have any questions about knee and back injuries feel free to ask!!!

Originally posted by auger
yall are talkin out your buts!!!! gt i drive, it rules! none of this horse link stuff just plain and simple good suspension! (before you post about pacific or how much gt sucks just remember my dad can beat up your dad!) I have owned and rode a few fs bikes, and for me the i drive is the shiznit. no bob or jack just smooth liteweight, cushy, reliable, nonwarrentyable suspension. Gts i drive consists of blah blah blah blah blah blah FUN non power robbing bob! thats my teck rant( i would probably get more teckie if i could figure out how to post links and stuff! so i could back up my words but i cant so just belive me im right get a gt!)

i-Drive is part of a dying breed of full suspension frames which places the crank set on the swing arm. Reason being: when you get out of the saddle it effectively locks out the suspension so you won't bob. The cost: suspension is not fully active when out of the saddle, and it bobs like a drunkard when you're in it.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ppan/images/gt_xcr/idrive_detail.jpg

It was popular when full suspension was just starting to really find its niche and hardtail riders were having trouble adjusting. A person could hop from their hardtail to their dully, stay out of the saddle when they pleased, and not have their performance hurt in the process. The problem is, why have full suspension if its inactive when you need it? For that reason the horst and rocker designs common today were born for the best of both worlds.

Edit: for the record, I doubt your dad would hit a man in a wheelchair, EH?!

Originally posted by Dr. Christopher
FSR, VPP, and Titus...?!!
The titus is effectively a 4-bar design which does a great job of emulating the Specialized one. I think I remember your price range being around 2500. For that much you could get one of the new Specialized Epics, but I hope to stay clear of them for a year or so and let them work out the bugs. Santa Cruz's VPP is very appealing. Many people assume it to be among the not-so-very-effective single pivot designs out there, but in fact it shares very little in common with a single pivot design. Everyone I know with one is practically evangelical about them. This is also a new design, but I've not heard any complaints about it. If you like the non-BRAIN using bikes at specialized, but want something around 2500 Titus or Intense would both be good places to look.

:D
Specialized Epic Pro or Comp is on my short list....just at or above my budget with disc setup....may be they'll have a end-of-the- year sale when the summer winds down.

BTW, when does the "new" model usually come out in the bike industry...fall, spring, summer??

Christopher

chiro hint: It is vital to do stretches before AND AFTER a ride to prevent injury and to optimize your peak physical performance. Depending on the terrain as well as the length of your ride you may peform simple stretches of your calfs and legs while your still on your bike....use your imaginations! Ride on!

Originally posted by auger
yall are talkin out your buts!!!! gt i drive, it rules! none of this horse link stuff just plain and simple good suspension! (before you post about pacific or how much gt sucks just remember my dad can beat up your dad!) I have owned and rode a few fs bikes, and for me the i drive is the shiznit. no bob or jack just smooth liteweight, cushy, reliable, nonwarrentyable suspension. Gts i drive consists of blah blah blah blah blah blah FUN non power robbing bob! thats my teck rant( i would probably get more teckie if i could figure out how to post links and stuff! so i could back up my words but i cant so just belive me im right get a gt!)

Oh come on, gt bites. All those mentioned, except for gt are great suggestions, but also remember the Giant VT series. Plus I highly doubt your father could beat my father up, my father was a door gunner in the 101st airborne in Vietnam.

Lets put it like this. Promo for 2004 stuff is being shown now in some cases. Next years stock comes out from fall to spring and sometimes THAT summer. Depends on the product / company / hype :)

Many companies start rolling out new product around July and August, with the usual sneak peaks and such occurring in this time frame.
FSR is a great way to go for a FS bike with minimal downside. To me, they're all something of a compromise but it's the best of the bunch. Might want to check out a Yeti Kokopelli for kicks-it's essentially last year's AS-R. Great ride, either way. Designs such as the I-Drive and NRS are not fully active when pedaling, as was mentioned above.
I'd stay away from any bike with a Lefty fork. I was playing with one at our shop today and couldn't really get it set up well, then was watching the leg flex, along with (alarmingly) the entire wheel when I subjected it to loading from the side. This is all IMHO, of course.

I've never felt very good about leftys. They just seem... wrong. Wrong like chocolate soda. I know more than a few people swear by them, and I've seen races won on them, but really. I'm very sure when God was thinking about complex machines and bicycles he intended for forks to be just that. A fork. Something that holds the wheel in place on either side. Its probably carved on a stone tablet somewhere in the middle east. Cannondale = heretics! (bankrupt ones)

A2 mentioned that the single pivot design is not good. Is this because it makes it less efficient? I have been looking at the Heckler and RM Edge and the Edge is defifintley efficient. However I think you lose plushness. Any thoughts on the edge and heckler? I think im pushing towards the Heckler, but would like some more feedback. Thanks
Byron

New product will show up in ascendiong order of product line, starting in late summer. i.e.:

$200 dollar bikes in August

$3000 dollar bikes around Xmas.

At least, that is generally how it is done. Barring any earthquakes.

that is a prety pic of the i drive! but i have to dissagree and i cant be funny about it, The statment about i drive being a dying thing well is wrong it may be an old concept but gt has perfected it, none of my i drive bikes have "bobed" in or out of the saddle (if the bike is not set up proper for the rider im sure this could happen) as for the suspension "locking out" when you are out of the saddle? doesnt happen on the i drive, mind you i sit most of the time when i ride. Now for the guy "gt bites" well anything wil bite if provoked and if you could explain to me why gt bites that would be cool ( none of this gt bites cause they suck), dude with dad in a wheel chair well my dad has a bum leg! and nothin beats a good ol' cripple fight! guy with dad from war with a gun or somthing hey cheers to your dad war is a drag, and im not going to make light of people that have been to war.....what was veitnam about anyway... myself i think it was just an excuse to make cool movies but im sure the good ol' u s of a had a good reason! ( i didnt think there was oil in veitnam)

Now i will say this on most of my posts, I cannot post pics of teck info and well i will never have a link to take you to where i read about a product! but i will defend the products that i use and like and i will voice my oppinion freely, and with alot of hummor, dont get pissy with me im just having fun! and if i offend you ..... well maby you needed to be offended and one more thing here is my apology.... fu!!(suicidal tend. 1988 i think)

Originally posted by auger
Now i will say this on most of my posts, I cannot post pics of teck info and well i will never have a link to take you to where i read about a product! but i will defend the products that i use and like and i will voice my oppinion freely, and with alot of hummor, dont get pissy with me im just having fun! and if i offend you ..... well maby you needed to be offended and one more thing here is my apology.... fu!!(suicidal tend. 1988 i think)

But sometimes there is a time you have to let go :)...You can defend that product but without knowing the newer products you can't really defend it properly. The i-drive may have worked but had problems. The 4bar is definately the standard design with which every design is measured and VPP is probably the future as it took suspension to a new level.

I will have to show you how to post links and stuff Auger...remind me later. :)

well it is not like vpp is new and as time goes on old suspension designs will be rehashed and reused and be marked as "inovative" but what it comes down to the bike companys that produce these "inovative" suspension ideas also produce inovative reviews of their product, there are only so many places for the vpp on a bike, and so many different ways to link a swing arm, none are perfect, and some will say its good some will say bad. Over the years there has been one truly innovative suspension des. and it is the i drive! im not saying it is the best but it is the only new design out there, the rest are using the pat host link, but have milld cool looking arms or make cosmetic changes to an old desighn, hey it works just not as good as the i drive in my opinion, now i remember my cannondale supper v it was a cool looking bike and at the time i thought it was the best suspension in the world and so did trek,gary fisher,caloi and numerous other companys my point being that all of these companys claimed to have an inovative suspension design but didnt it was rehashed old design with maby a mil or 2 difference in pivot point, now i am not much of a reading type guy, i do read a bit but most of knowledge comes from test driving, retail shows and well from being a mech in a bike store, this doesnt make me an expert but at the same time i have learned that just cause somthing has been painted a different colour, or somone has put diff sticker on it doesnt make it better, its like saying that cove cycles have a better design than kona. The biking indus. is riddled with the regurgated design syndrome, if you wait long enough replacable arches for forks will come back, anti chain suck thing, purple bar ends, and the one i cant wait to come back is the remote muti position seatpost its on a comback you wait and see it will be on your new vpp bike lmao

Ok I can agree with that. The idrive is probably the most unique and the horst link really isn't innovative as it has been used in mx for a very long time and even that no suspension is perfect. There are really so many ways to do suspension and they have unique attibutes such as being active suspension or not or bobbing or not etc...Even vpp was developed, what, 7 years ao and just recently re-found and purchased but FINALLY put into full production which is one place vpp has never been on mtb's. (its unfortunate the originators never had the backing to create an affordable vpp bike at that point it would have changed mtbikes forever)

As you know I am a geek. I read and read and understand the physics (some of it) behind each type of suspension. I believe the point behind the 4 bar waqs it offered the best comprimize between being an active suspension while still being ok to pedal (not pefect but a good comprimize). We haven't even touched on the new SPV or Brain systems being developed that lock out themselves with downward push and unlock with upward push (again a stolen design from motorized borrowing from the Baja Buggie suspension design). While not innovative this could change bike designs and how they react for the better.

Another vote for the FSR

Originally posted by B1105
A2 mentioned that the single pivot design is not good. Is this because it makes it less efficient? I have been looking at the Heckler and RM Edge and the Edge is defifintley efficient. However I think you lose plushness. Any thoughts on the edge and heckler? I think im pushing towards the Heckler, but would like some more feedback. Thanks
Byron

Santa Cruz went with the single pivot design for a pretty long time and did everything they could to eliminate the problems inherent in it.

http://www.santacruzmtb.com/graphics/heck_large.jpg

The inverted "U" shape of the swingarm is where they ended up with it. It works pretty well, but still suffers from some of common problems with single pivot designs. For the price, I would hope for better.

As for rocky mountain bikes... Eh. I just don't like them. They strike me as a novelty. The bikes are great, but no greater than non-hand-made bikes.

Ive never tried it but I have heard from many places that FSR (a particular 4-bar design) is the best.

The Horst link (FSR Specialized patent) was invented by some guy named Horst and Specialized bought it and patented it. Many companies license it and make better versions.

The difference between the FSR and Titus Racer X, for example, is night and day. Specialized's is cheaper and flexy, which wastes alot of energy and doesn't let the suspension work as well as it could. For the pricepoint, it's a fine bike.
You only need look at the Racer X to see how much better it is and once you ride it, you will understand why this frame is a gold standard in FS XC bikes. It's not just the rear suspension. You need to look at the entire build and geometry. The Titus has all of this so well balanced that it is near perfect. The Blur is brilliant but I like the Racer X over it.

The Specialized bikes are fine and good for the price they need to hit.
If you want to see the best FS frames in production, you need to visit a Titus, SC, Intense, etc retailer.

see with all the blah blah blah the whole horst thing is lost. Single piv bikes=the rear wheel moves towards the seat tube under compresion, horst= the rear wheel moves up and down. If i was to give in, the horst link is "true" suspension, better all around and works well! BUT as for the innovations and physics of how the suspension works is smoke and mirrors! there are only so many "sweet spots" on a bike and they just keep on being "inovated" and marked as breaking ground in mnt bike technology! but what it comes down to is there will never be a bike that is perfect for everyone! no matter how inovative the design! see that santa cruise bike nice bike... santa cruz is a cool company, that is a pretty bike, i bet the guy that posted the pic likes santa cruz, i bet he has a page of testing and stas about the bike and why it is the best thing on the planet.. ya know i rode a santa cruz.... peice of crap, it was a bullit, it bobed, felt loose it just wasnt the bike for me, same with kona (sorry mae im sure the ht's rule) and specialized now those are three very good companys that you will here alot of good feedback about, people might give you some really cool numbers and stuff that say this is why you should think this bike is good, myself im a gt guy, you well hey man before you take anyones "word" for it, go test ride as many bikes as you can!! dont listen to the crap you hear about why this bike is better etc, go find your steed man, you will know when you find the " best fs bike for you" and when your riding your gt think about auger and how much he helped you!!! lmao

:eek:

Whoa, whoa, whoa! I never said that single pivots are "Bad" designs, I said, "I stay away from them".

Single pivots have their benefits, reliability and minimal maintenance are the two key points. I just prefer the ride of a 4-bar. Climbing in the granny gear with a single-pivot will always have a bit of pedal induced bobbing! How much? Depends on how smooth a pedal stroke. How big of a deal? Not much at all if you're not a racer!

As far as being brand loyal, I used to be a die-hard GT fan. One of my first BMX bikes when I was a kid racing was a GT Pro, my first "real" mountan bike was a GT Karakoram, my next bike was also a GT Ricochet, my wife's bike was a GT Backwoods, I bought another BMX Speed Series to play around on. I like GT, but their I-Drives. I looked at that and thought to myself (remember, I'm a Clydesdale), "Self, that's a maintenance nightmare! Stay the heck away from that!" The biggest problem that GT had with this design is their weight. Their frames weigh a good 1-2 lbs more than comparable frames (not exact, but heavier).

The future is promising for full suspension designs. Refinements are constantly being made, ideas are borrowed from MX, Off-Road Vehicles and even Indy Cars.

If I had some cash to spend, I'd definately consider Specialized's bikes as one of my top 3. For $2500, you're going to end up with a stripped down Santa Cruz, Intense or Titus. Prices go up respectively! Unless you can get a close-out or a "BRO" deal.

The Yeti Kokopelli is a well spec'd bike and has that "boutique" flavor to it, so I definately dig it!

There are just sooooo many to choose from, but "I" would only choose between a Horst 4-bar and a VPP for the parameters you set forth!

L8R

Dr -
Ride all you can - test/rent for the day if possible and take it where you like to ride. In your $ range you should be able to get an epic disc with room for a couple of upgrades. I'm very pleased with mine - hardtail fast on the flat & climbing, and when you hit the rough, the tansition to FSR is completely invisible. Downhill is just SICK! - your brain says "WHOA YOU CAN'T RIDE OVER THIS *****"...your body says "No problem here, mon!" - (Sorry if I'm easily amused, it's my first fs bike, but this one begs to go fast). The future of FS is Brain (my $.02). My buddy is still sold on his Blur though.
Now, about my knee...

-R

Originally posted by auger
now i am not much of a reading type guy

Apparently writing can be a challenge too.:D

Please spend a little more time on spelling and punctuation so we can follow your posts a little easier. Thanks.

come on are you for real! its not that bad man! dont insult me, i may make some spelling mistakes and for get a space here and there but your are being a goof i got your pm why do you post a message that outright makes fun of somone! Mabey YOU should take some time and THINK about what your posting, dont insult me!

i may not have the best spelling and grammer hey i will admit that, but i dont make fun of peoples weak points, did you have a rough childhood? it sounds like you need some therapy THIS ISNT A FREAKIN SPELLING FORUM, ITS NOT ABOUT PUNCTUATION!!! i bet this will choke you i make more money than you, and i cant spell!!!!!

The ability to effectively convey thoughts and ideas will always be an asset.

If I makme (sic) or see one or two typing mistakes, I don't worry too much about it. But a dense block of uncapitalized, unpunctuated run on sentences makes for hard reading, or sometimes in my case, no reading at all.

i agree as i read totaly but we are not always perfect! and as bad as my posts may be i can point out flaws also (your last post is far from perfect!)

So rocky mountain's 3D Link doesnt appeal to anyone? Damn, because I was considering one of them. I have ridden a Slayer and have found it to be one of the most efficient fs bikes. Hmmm.....what to get...

I vote for fsr http://www.specialized.com/sbc4Bar.jsp?orig=us&minisite=10020&minisite=10020&xsrc=2495&a=b and RM 3D link, both have no pedal feedback and are very efficient.

But the RMs are hand made by 14 blind nuns in the mountains of Canada, who could turn that down?! Me

Originally posted by DiL
But the RMs are hand made by 14 blind nuns in the mountains of Canada, who could turn that down?! Me


Oops....you made a stupid joke about a bike company that you've never used beforehttp://mysmilies.creativesell.net/cwm/3dlil/idea.gif

Originally posted by B1105
So rocky mountain's 3D Link doesnt appeal to anyone? Damn, because I was considering one of them. I have ridden a Slayer and have found it to be one of the most efficient fs bikes. Hmmm.....what to get...
Itd be nice to be able to afford a RM ETSX.. but durn, they is expensive!!

Originally posted by Scooby Snax
Itd be nice to be able to afford a RM ETSX.. but durn, they is expensive!!


You know that the ETSX dosent use the 3D link right?

Originally posted by KleinMp99
You know that the ETSX dosent use the 3D link right?

I stand corrected!

My mistake, your treat, I'll have a coke thanks!!

Originally posted by KleinMp99
Oops....you made a stupid joke about a bike company that you've never used beforehttp://mysmilies.creativesell.net/cwm/3dlil/idea.gif

Woe is me who incurred the wrath of Klein, who never flames anyone... except people taken to breathing. If you disagree with something I've said, please, please feel free to say it. I'm not unwilling to budge on things I say. However, if you're looking to insult someone, you should probably feel free to refrain from pushing that reply key.

Originally posted by DiL
If you disagree with something I've said, please, please feel free to say it.


Well.....is there actually a reason that you dont like Rocky Mountain? I only said what I said because you made a comment about a company and had no story to go along with it. Feel free to share with us...

Gladly, I think their bikes are exorbitantly overpriced in the name of novelty.

Originally posted by DiL
Gladly, I think their bikes are exorbitantly overpriced in the name of novelty.

I totally agree, in fact, ALL work performed by skilled craftspeople is "exorbitantly overpriced in the name of novelty", lets ship ALL production over to 3rd and 2nd world countries where we can people pennies an hour! Why stop at bikes, shoes and clothing when we can ship over IT, engineering, auto manufacturing, etc etc in the name of saving a few bucks. Even if it hurts 1st world middle classes and is grossely unfair to those workers making pennies an hour, who the hell cares?

:rolleyes:

I love my Rocky, I was OK with paying a couple of hundred CND extra over a "Made in Taiwan" special, and I will be OK with paying more for my next bike, likely an RM ETSX.