Touring - New tourer / commuter based on Alfine internal hub gear

Has anyone considered building a tourer based around the new Shimano Alfine group? For those who don't know, it's a new, lightweight internal hub gear (8-speed) for use with disc brakes. After commuting everyday for a year on my touring bike, I realize that for those people who really bike everyday, the dirt, grit, and water really put a lot of wear and tear on derailleur systems and the maintenance, as much I have wanted to ignore it, is annoying and something that can be negated with the hub gear. Also, in NY it's constant start and stop once I get into manhattan, so I think the ability to change gears at a stop with the internal hub gear will be a big plus. I also want to be able to do some touring with it. I won't be climbing mountains with this thing so the gear range will be fine, and if it isn't, I'll throw a compact crank on the front.

In any case, I don't think the build will be easy, especially because I want to put it on a LHT-type frame (except, I'll need horizontal dropouts because I simply won't use a tensioner...), and I'll want trekking style bars... Also, the disc breaks might interfere with the type of rack/pannier system required for touring. I guess my question is, is anyone anticipating the same type of bike once the Alfine hits our markets? If so, what kind of frame and general build would you put together?

I'd go with a crosscheck and a LHT fork. Oops, missed the disc brakes. Nevermind.

We are starting to see touring bikes designed around internal gear hubs, especially the expensive German made Rohloff hub. Look at the Thorn bikes for example. Or the Silk road by Peter White.

I like the idea and I wish Shimano would comeout with an internal gear hub with ar ange closer to the Rohloff.

It looks like the Alfine is just a refinement of the Shimano Nexus line. I have a Nexus 7 speed on a Breezer and it doesn't have the range for real loaded touring. My other complaint is that it is royal pain to change the rear tire. The link between the gear cable and the hub is simple in theory but in practise you need about three hands to do it easily.

From what I have read internal gear hubs work much better in frames that have been designed for them, in this case with horizontal dropouts, so that is the route to go. Do Surly make a frame with horizontal dropouts? I expect it will be difficult to find a touring frame with horizontal dropouts.

For racks, I think old man mountain make racks that are compatible with discs.

Do Surly make a frame with horizontal dropouts? I expect it will be difficult to find a touring frame with horizontal dropouts.
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In thinking about it more, I think the karate monkey frame might work from the dropout/disc brake aspect, but I'm not sure about the geometry aspect.

My commuter (asphalt salsa in my sig) could be used as a credit card tourer; it's built around an internal hub.
It has vertical dropouts and I was forced to use a chain tensioner, but have had no issue with the dropouts. The chain tensioner I use is called a Doofer by On-One (http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=123&MMN_position=203:203). It looks better than a regular one to me.I am able to use quick releases on the hub, but I prefer the theft safety of pitlocks so it still takes a while to change a tire.
Rohloffs are the king of the hill when it comes to internal hubs. Their gear ratio is unmatched.
The hub did get in the way of my rack eyelets and I had to use some P-clamps to mount my rack.

http://homepage.mac.com/awcg/.Pictures/Bike/CP1.jpg
Internal hub + Doofer

Check out this LHT with a Rohloff hub. Sweet.
http://www.cheekymonkey.com.au/Bikes.htm
Scroll down the page a little until you see "Jan's Surly Rohloff Tour."

Yeah, those cheeky bikes look great. Note the 1X1 frames (horizontal dropouts) with the Rohloff down under that somehow brace the hub on the disk brake bracket, rather than with a tension bar to the chain stay. Precludes using a disk brake though?

i have a karate monkey with a rohloff hub. i love it heart and soul. i use it as a commuter and am planning to tour with it as well. i opted for v-brakes though. but you can do it up with disc brakes. look at the harris cyclery webpage. good info there on rohloffs.

Yeah the main reason I want to try the alfine is the price will probably a lot less than a rohloff.

In any case, I don't think the build will be easy, especially because I want to put it on a LHT-type frame (except, I'll need horizontal dropouts because I simply won't use a tensioner...), and I'll want trekking style bars... Also, the disc breaks might interfere with the type of rack/pannier system required for touring. I guess my question is, is anyone anticipating the same type of bike once the Alfine hits our markets? If so, what kind of frame and general build would you put together?

If you want to use a LHT frame (or any touring bike frame), more than likely, you'll have to use a tensioner. Don't be afraid to use one and they are durable. Finding a suitable a touring frame with horizontal dropouts will be very hard unless you intend to order from St. Johns Cyclery in England.

Use Sheldon's calculator to get a chainring/cog combination so that you'll have a low of 24' inches. You'll sacrifice the high gear but we are touring aren't we?

Actually, for all of you who are claiming that the alfine wouldn't give me the proper gear ratios for touring, what do you think about putting a compact double crank on the front? This could give me a higher range of options than even a rohloff. Some people would say this would be counter-intuitive to have a combination deraillieur/hub gear bike, but I ask, other than weight, why would this be a bad idea?

Actually, for all of you who are claiming that the alfine wouldn't give me the proper gear ratios for touring, what do you think about putting a compact double crank on the front? This could give me a higher range of options than even a rohloff. Some people would say this would be counter-intuitive to have a combination deraillieur/hub gear bike, but I ask, other than weight, why would this be a bad idea?
It's not! I did that with an old Shimano 3-speed internal hub and a 48/38/28 crank. The only problem you might have is making narrow 3/32 chain work with the hub cog, which in almost all cases is for 1/8" chain. I put my cog on a metal lathe and thinned it to fit and used a file to shape the teeth properly. An old rear derailleur was used to take up chain slack and I just use the limit screws to lock it in position in front of the cog. No cable required! It works very well even considering it's just a cheap 3-speed hub. You can't use a hub with a built in coaster brake. First time you reverse pedal to brake you'll snap the rear derailleur.

No reason you couldn't use a compact double and an alfine hub.
You are just sacrificing some of the simplicity that comes from having
just the hub gear. Actually I like the idea as it gives decent range with a reasonable
cost.

Alfine gets in the low 300s%. It is a city bike group, like Nexus 8. That is kind of narrow for loaded touring. Rohloff is more typical of a touring range. A SRAM Dual-Drive would get you a better touring range than a double front chainring. Alternatively, a front transmission like a Schlumpf speed drive could get you a bailout low gear while keeping the rear internal as with a Nexus or Alfine.

Do you mean a schlumpf mountain drive? Yeah, then we're starting to get into some pretty hefty losses in efficiency...

I'll give it some more thought.

Do you mean a schlumpf mountain drive? Yeah, then we're starting to get into some pretty hefty losses in efficiency...

I'll give it some more thought.


No, I meant the Schlumpf Speed Drive, which while it loses some efficiency, still isn't awful. At a 1:1.65
gear advantage, it should get you to the 500% range that you could use for touring with a Nexus 8 on the rear. As with a derailleur and unlike with the Rohloff, you will get overlapping ratios (but none with cross-chaining inefficiencies.) Also, with the Speed Drive, you could use a Rohloff if you decided and there is a wide range of chainrings. It would be up to you to select the front ring and rear cog combination to get the low/high you want. But the range would be up there with Rohloff and a 11-32 9-speed+front touring triple.

If you must have maximum efficiency, you know derailleur is still the most efficient.

The Schlumpf High Speed Drive and Mountain Drive are more suitable for recumbents and small-wheel folders.

The Schlumpf Mountain Drive will void the warranty on a Rohloff, the gearing becomes too low for design specs; I would expect that would be true of most internal hubs. The Speed Drive and High Speed Drive will not void Rohloff's warranty however. On both the Speed and High Speed Drives you have to have the bottom bracket machined to a 45º bevel to fit the Schlumpf to the frame.

Ben Cooper built up an "Ultimate Commuter" with both a Rohloff and a Schlumpf planetary drive.
http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/assets/images/853_02_small.jpg (http://www.kinetics-online.co.uk/html/853_commuter.shtml)
Click pic for a link to Ben's site

Sheldon Brown used a Sturmey-Archer 3 speed hub and combined it with both a front and rear derailleur for a total of 63 gears.
http://www.sheldonbrown.org/images/otb.jpeg (http://www.sheldonbrown.org/otb.html)
Sheldon's O.T.B. (Only-The-Best) Click for more

Thank you guys for helping to expand this discussion.

Please correct me if I'm off here, but it seems like the speed drive wouldn't do anything to help with lower gearing though, which is the main reason why touring bikes need such a high range anyway. I guess the rational would be to allow me to use the smallest possible front chainring instead? ...because I would do that anyway.

Man, I just wish a rohloff didn't cost a grand just for a damn hub.

Try ebay for a SRAM dual drive. you should be able to pick one of those up pretty cheap and you could easily make in into a touring bike.

Thank you guys for helping to expand this discussion.

Please correct me if I'm off here, but it seems like the speed drive wouldn't do anything to help with lower gearing though, which is the main reason why touring bikes need such a high range anyway. I guess the rational would be to allow me to use the smallest possible front chainring instead? ...because I would do that anyway.

Man, I just wish a rohloff didn't cost a grand just for a damn hub.

The Speed Drives allow you to run a small front ring and still have tall gears. The Mountain Drive is the opposite, tall front ring and still have granny gears. The problem with the warranties is the Mountain Drive with a small front ring can make more torque than the hub can handle.

And yeah Rohloffs are expensive, but it's one of the few things where you actually get what you pay for. You can take some solace that you don't need to buy derailleurs with an internal hub fitted frame.

Think about an eccentric BB rather than horizontal dropouts.

Vertical dropouts are really convenient (no mucking around with getting your wheel straight with adequate chain tension, no worries with brake rub) and with an eccentric BB you won't need a tensioner.

You can get either a Speed Drive, which gives you higher gears, or a Mountain Drive, which gives you lower. Greenspeed often fit them to their recumbent trikes.

Why do you want disc brakes on a tourer?
- Have to remove rotors in transit
- Panniers interfere with air cooling
- Braking in the dry is no better (but better in the wet)
- Presumably you are on road, not caking your wheels with mud to cause wheel stick.

I toured through Japan on a Surly Cross Check with the Nexus 8 speed hub. This set up worked great for me. I also used to have a Karate Monkey. I prefer the geometry of the cross check for road stuff. For me it was much more fun to ride. I don't have any experience with the LHT. If discs are really important to you, the karate monkey would make a decent touring bike. It is a bit difficult to get a rack and fenders on, but its nothing some simple hardware from home depot can't fix. As far as the 8 speed hub, I found the gear range sufficient for my tour. I crossed several mountains. I didn't have camping supplies, I had two full rear panniers and a handlebar bag. For fully loaded touring it may be more difficult. I also normally ride a fixed gear, so I am used to riding up hills in a high gear. My touring partner had the same setup and he was very pleased as well. Hope this helps.

The Urbane Tourist has Horizontal DO, though it's not really the Rohloff type DO, but better than a vertical.

I was looking on the Frame side here, and apparently Bringhetti will do a frame custom for 500, you have to organize paint, but you should be able to get powder for 40-60. There is also a lot of detailing you have to do. Maybe if you supplied him with a set of paragon DOs, you could get your dream frame for not a lot more than the LHT, considering...

I would do a Nexus 8, or a Rohloff. But I really start to loose interest with a front Derailleur or a tensioner. By the time you have all that stuff in there, just what is the real advantage of having a 4 pound hub? I have something like this on an otherwise nice recumbent and really who thinks this stuff up?

However if a person wants it, what about this carbon internal hub:

http://www.sram-imotion.com/pdf/news/snn7_en.pdf

If touring on something like the Nexus 8 I just think you have to be rational about the real range of speeds you get out of a 24 speed, I would cut off the mental sense of need for the top three speeds, because I rarely use them, and then the 8 set up from the granny looks reasonable. It won't be that terrible, but like everything it is a compromise.

I would take to hear the point about ease of fixing flats, I can't coment, but it's the kind of thing that can be a bigger deal than the technical whiz bang of any armchair gear choice. I obssess about these things, for the fun of it, at home. On the road, reliability and the ease of fixing stuff is far more important.