If it's 'all marketing' the pro team managers would be getting so much incentive to put their riders on clinchers

Isnt this happening now?
I'll find the link, but I read that one of the teams is running half clinchers and half tubulars per the tire manufacturers request.. to show the public that their clinchers could be raced on.

Nobody ever rolled a clincher on a 90º day in the Alps....

p-cad, if you decide that the Zipps, or something similar, is for you than another option is something custom from a guy like Troy Watson. He can get the exact same rims and lace them to whatever high quality hub you want. Depending on hub choice, you might acutally get them lighter than you would from Zipp. I don't know the exact price, but it will be very similar.

Bottom of the page on the charts.

http://www.rouesartisanales.com/article-1503651.html


So, according to those charts, (if I'm reading them right) the rolling resistance of my Tufo tubulars at 18.6 mph is 53.5 Watts per tire, which is 107 watts for the 2. Since it takes me about 135 watts to ride at 18.6 mph, the remaining 28 watts must be wind resistance.

If I switch to Michelin Pro2 Race tires at 29.2 watts per tire, I can save 48.6 watts!
Probably even more at actual race speeds of 20-30 mph!
Is this true?

Dang, why have I been racing on tubulars!

p-cad, if you decide that the Zipps, or something similar, is for you than another option is something custom from a guy like Troy Watson. He can get the exact same rims and lace them to whatever high quality hub you want. Depending on hub choice, you might acutally get them lighter than you would from Zipp. I don't know the exact price, but it will be very similar.

Don't get carried away. The stock Zipps will require embezzling money from my own company, a home equity loan, or both.

So, according to those charts, (if I'm reading them right) the rolling resistance of my Tufo tubulars at 18.6 mph is 53.5 Watts per tire, which is 107 watts for the 2.

No, it's 53.5watts for both tires, given an 85kg (187lb) bike+rider. Also, resistance on a flat road is less than on a roller, so you won't see quite as large gains from better tires.


If I switch to Michelin Pro2 Race tires at 29.2 watts per tire, I can save 48.6 watts!
Probably even more at actual race speeds of 20-30 mph!
Is this true?


Probably more like 15 watts, but yes, it's true.

Isnt this happening now?
I'll find the link, but I read that one of the teams is running half clinchers and half tubulars per the tire manufacturers request.. to show the public that their clinchers could be raced on.
per the mfr's (read: paid sponsor) request, not the riders.

(I believe it was Toyota-United)

No, it's 53.5watts for both tires, given an 85kg (187lb) bike+rider. Also, resistance on a flat road is less than on a roller, so you won't see quite as large gains from better tires.



Probably more like 15 watts, but yes, it's true.

Thanks.

I'm betting that the semi deep rim section and 350g weight saving of my Zipp 303's over my training clincher wheels more than make up for that 15 watts over a rolling course.

Someday, when I get an SRM I can go to my local asphalt test track and test all my wheels at a constant 20mph and find out which require the fewest watts to propel. In the meantime I'll continue racing on my Zipp 303 tubulars.

Nobody ever rolled a clincher on a 90º day in the Alps....

until they flatted

No, it's 53.5watts for both tires, given an 85kg (187lb) bike+rider. Also, resistance on a flat road is less than on a roller, so you won't see quite as large gains from better tires.

The numbers in the chart are for riding on the road. They're extrapolated from single tire tests on the huge Conti test drum to a pair of tires at a certain speed with a given load.

(which surely outsell sewups 10 to 1 in dollar volume, maybe more)

Actually it's probably 50 or 100 to 1. But all they have to do to turn that number around is have Lance say he only rode tubulars.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

until they flatted

The clinchers won't roll if you flat. Are you kidding? You need a friggin Jaws of Life to get some of those tires off the rim when you fix a puncture.

The clinchers won't roll if you flat. Are you kidding? You need a friggin Jaws of Life to get some of those tires off the rim when you fix a puncture.

I've had it happen to me, and seen it happen to many others.

When the clinchers flat in a corner, they literally disintegrate in some situations. I have a picture of a friend that this happened to, but I can't find it at the moment. He rolled his tire in the last corner of a Pro/1/2 crit, somehow managed to get a foot down, dismounted like a cat, put the bike on his shoulder, and sprinted the 75 yards to get into the money.

The tire is hanging in shreds from his bike.

The clinchers won't roll if you flat. Are you kidding? You need a friggin Jaws of Life to get some of those tires off the rim when you fix a puncture.

You can keep riding a flat tubular with some degree of control. You really can't ride a flat clincher, particularly descending. The ability to ride it out in situations where you can't get immediate support is one of the reasons pros have tended to favor tubulars.

You can keep riding a flat tubular with some degree of control. You really can't ride a flat clincher, particularly descending. The ability to ride it out in situations where you can't get immediate support is one of the reasons pros have tended to favor tubulars.

+10000 This is how I destroyed my Cinelli Starlight. I was on a fast descent, coming into a 40+mph right hand turn my rear tire went completely flat. Lost the back of the bike, caught the slide but ended up in the dirt with lots of road rash and busted frame.

I've only seen tubulars roll, never clinchers. But anything can happen. This was brought home for me in a race in NY 12+ years ago where a guy two bikes over from me is climbing a hill and his CRANK ARM snaps in half. Some Campy piece of siht of course. Dura Ace cranks don't detonate that way.

But I KID you Campy heads. Anything can and will break, including (God forgive me) Dura Ace (now I'm going to Campy hell).

I've only seen tubulars roll, never clinchers. But anything can happen. This was brought home for me in a race in NY 12+ years ago where a guy two bikes over from me is climbing a hill and his CRANK ARM snaps in half. Some Campy piece of siht of course. Dura Ace cranks don't detonate that way.

But I KID you Campy heads. Anything can and will break, including (God forgive me) Dura Ace (now I'm going to Campy hell).

Just riding with Shimano will send you to hell ;)

Not to wade into the debate, but if I could afford 404's, I'd buy them. But since I can't, I'll argue that clinchers are better and laugh at people who waste their money on carbon wheels.

Grad school ain't cutting it, I need a job. :(

The numbers in the chart are for riding on the road. They're extrapolated from single tire tests on the huge Conti test drum to a pair of tires at a certain speed with a given load.

Hmm ... I've only read what's on that page, but I don't think they did the equivalent radius calculation to adjust Crr for their roller diameter. Crr rises as you use smaller and smaller rollers, and you have to adjust it via a formula to convert back to Crr for a flat road. They say their roller was 1.2m in diameter, which would mean their Crr numbers are about 36% high. That looks about right, given that Pro Races usually test out at about 0.003 but they have them listed at 0.0042.

Pizza Man: I'd agree, your 303s probably win out over your training wheels due to better aerodynamics.

It is no accident that the two people I know locally who ride Zipp 404's are:

• The highest income bike weenie I personally know, he's a millionaire/amateur 45+ bike racer

• The regional sales rep for Zipp

They're $1750 my little weeines. Plus sales tax. Ouch. I think I can honk my LBS into selling me the wheels for $1550 or so, but that's a lotta jack, jack. But they may be worth it. I can assure you that light, aero wheels will confer more of a speed edge than any bike frame I can think of.

Anybody want to buy a lightly used set of Ksyrium ES wheels? Those will be on the block to finance this madness. Sigh. This will have to wait until after (cringe) April 15th. Let's see if I have to mortgage the house and sell my doggie to the animal research labs to pay the tax bill first.

On the other hand, everybody I know who owns them or who has had a chance to ride/race them enough seems to think they do add 1mph or so @ 25-35mph. Add that to their gossamer weight, and their popularity despite their price is understandable. Quality product that really does confer a performance edge.

I said EDGE. I do understand it's the MOTOR stupid. I'm working on that.

I can guarantee you this: unlike the weenie who won the Powerball and immediately spent $65K on bicycle schwag, I would NEVER do that. I would spend at least $100K and then come here and give you a detailed accounting.

If you want to save some money, you could always get some no name carbon wheels. Some of them are even Zipp OEM rims, minus the dimples. About the same quality, maybe less in the hub, but you get some sweet carbon wheels and don't have to pay for Zipp namebrand / ad budget.

If you want to save some money, you could always get some no name carbon wheels. Some of them are even Zipp OEM rims, minus the dimples. About the same quality, maybe less in the hub, but you get some sweet carbon wheels and don't have to pay for Zipp namebrand / ad budget.

Can you point me to some of these no name brands? It seems like most deep carbon wheels sell for a price that is pretty close to the Zipps.

Thanks.

Can you point me to some of these no name brands? It seems like most deep carbon wheels sell for a price that is pretty close to the Zipps.

Thanks.
What he said.

Can you point me to some of these no name brands? It seems like most deep carbon wheels sell for a price that is pretty close to the Zipps.

Thanks.

there are much cheaper ones.. they are normally much heavier as well.. but if you look at the numbers aerodynamics really beat out wheel weight in most situations.

I don't know that it matters, but i am a cheap @$$ and i picked up my 404's used on ebay for $750 with 400 miles on them. They are great wheels and did NOT break the bank. Does anyone else here use Ebay occasionally?

http://aebike.com/images/library/catalogs/soc/prodl/WE0842.jpg
Flashpoint (40mm and 60mm avail.)
1600-1700g $1000/pair

http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/42000175/images/28/WE1624-01.jpg
Cane Creak aros (38mm and 58mm)
1400g $1080/pair

http://www.gearlink.com/mmGEAR/Images/2004ACCarbon.jpg
American Classic (38mm and 58mm)
1300g $1200/pair

http://www.gottaridebikes.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/tilium.jpg
Spinergy Stealth PBO
45mm
1550g $950

I don't know that it matters, but i am a cheap @$$ and i picked up my 404's used on ebay for $750 with 400 miles on them. They are great wheels and did NOT break the bank. Does anyone else here use Ebay occasionally?

For stuff my LBS doesn't carry, all the time. I've had great luck buying stuff off of ebay, I got my first PowerTap Pro for 400 bucks laced to a CXP-33. I will say that I'm pretty reluctant to buy anything CF off of Ebay. I'm sure this is irrational but that's the way it is.

I don't know that it matters, but i am a cheap @$$ and i picked up my 404's used on ebay for $750 with 400 miles on them. They are great wheels and did NOT break the bank. Does anyone else here use Ebay occasionally?

I'm scoping out eBay on the Zipp 404's. How anyone scarfs a set for under $800 is beyond me, but that's generally far less than they bring. Good score dude. I'll keep my ear to the eBay tracks.

Setting aside the clincher/tubular debate, I train and race on Zipp 404's

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bobstewart/with-zipps.jpg

In my experience they've been very durable wheels. (did a race sunday with a fairly bumpy cobbled section with them with no problem).

Once they're up to speed, they definitely feel fast. Objectively it might .25 mph or so in the low 20's.

When I first got them, they felt a bit slow accelerating, compared to a lighter set of 303's. However, I pretty much got used to that after a while, and I doubt the actual difference would be measurable.

Thats an awesome ride you have there !!!! dare I say "perfect"? Good taste.

My Ksyrium ES wheels are only about 100 grams lighter than the SL's. And I FEEL it every time I ride them up a hill. This is something I get to 'A-B' on a regular basis, and it's amazing to me how much small amounts of weight are discernable on wheels. The Zipps are another 200 grams or so lighter than that. So I'm confident they will certainly feel lighter going up hills. I'll be racing again this year, so tubulars are more attractive to me than before. In the USCF when you flat, your race is essentially over anyway. So you don't really need the spare : ).

Except in crits, which are 75% of the races most of us will do this summer. There's a wheel pit, for good reason.

Can you point me to some of these no name brands? It seems like most deep carbon wheels sell for a price that is pretty close to the Zipps.

Thanks.
Off the top of my head, you can get deep section carbon rims from Gigantex and Neuvation Cycling at a pretty reasonable price. I think chucksbikes.com sells the Gigantex rims under the name 'Performer Carbon Wheelset.'

They're not Zipps, but if you cannon afford Zipps, they are pretty good options. You also don't get dimples.

[edit] Or ebay, apparently: http://cgi.ebay.com/Carbon-rims-700c-by-Gigantex-1-pair-20-24-hole_W0QQitemZ110085519691QQihZ001QQcategoryZ42319QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

I'm not a crit fan. But still, the same theory applies: wheel pits mean you don't have to carry a spare tire. Besides the one around your waist I mean.

Patencad just buy the damn Zipps. You came here for some support to rationalize your purchase. Here is the only rationale that matters. YOU-WANT-THEM!!!! Now quit the procrastinating and buy them. Then you can start a new thread about how much you love them and cant' believe you went this long with out them blah blah blah....

Patencad just buy the damn Zipps. You came here for some support to rationalize your purchase. Here is the only rationale that matters. YOU-WANT-THEM!!!! Now quit the procrastinating and buy them. Then you can start a new thread about how much you love them and cant' believe you went this long with out them blah blah blah....

Ah, Diablo, you know me all too well. But the Zipps will require a budgetary overview, followed by a procurement study, a subsequent acquisition strategy session, a spousal avoidance slush fund analysis, an eBay audit, several more weeks of head banging and hand wringing, a trip to the accountant for tax year 2006, a therapy session with my shrink (he's a local Cat 2/Vet, this usually occurs @ 23mph while the local peloton is flicking buggers on the Sunday ride) and the compulsory Zen meditation period.

'Just buy the damn Zipps'. Silly weenie. Were it only that simple. Who do you think I am, Euro? It's easy for him, he KNOWS everything. Besides, once I buy the stupid wheels, all the fun is over. THIS is the fun part.

And of course, this would be much easier if Zipp had a leasing program. Like no money down, $29 per month for 48 months, 5K miles per year, .15 per mile over that. Serotta has that. Or they should.

Ah, Diablo, you know me all too well. But the Zipps will require a budgetary overview, followed by a procurement study, a subsequent acquisition strategy session, a spousal avoidance slush fund analysis, an eBay audit, several more weeks of head banging and hand wringing, a trip to the accountant for tax year 2006, a therapy session with my shrink (he's a local Cat 2/Vet, this usually occurs @ 23mph while the local peloton is flicking buggers on the Sunday ride) and the compulsory Zen meditation period.

'Just buy the damn Zipps'. Silly weenie. Were it only that simple. Who do you think I am, Euro? It's easy for him, he KNOWS everything. Besides, once I buy the stupid wheels, all the fun is over. THIS is the fun part.

And of course, this would be much easier if Zipp had a leasing program. Like no money down, $29 per month for 48 months, 5K miles per year, .15 per mile over that. Serotta has that. Or they should.

Here is what I do. I have a paypal account and I run the bike related purchases that the missus might deem to be over the top through that account. I buy and sell and keep all the monies off the books.

My Ksyrium ES wheels are only about 100 grams lighter than the SL's. And I FEEL it every time I ride them up a hill. This is something I get to 'A-B' on a regular basis, and it's amazing to me how much small amounts of weight are discernable on wheels.

To bad for climbing there is little difference between rotating and non-roatating weight. I hope that placebo works well for you though.

To bad for climbing there is little difference between rotating and non-roatating weight. I hope that placebo works well for you though.

Placebos are very effective, thank you.

To bad for climbing there is little difference between rotating and non-roatating weight. I hope that placebo works well for you though.

There are critical moments in every race when the mental aspect of cycling is more important than the physical aspect. So yes if you think you have an advantage then chances are you have an advantage.

Zipps are overpriced and unreliable.

Don't you just hate it when people make comments like that. :D

Zipps are overpriced and unreliable.

Don't you just hate it when people make comments like that. :D

That is exactly why I bought Reynolds Stratus DV's ;)

And of course, this would be much easier if Zipp had a leasing program. Like no money down, $29 per month for 48 months, 5K miles per year, .15 per mile over that. Serotta has that. Or they should.

:lol:

Classic...

Zipps are overpriced and unreliable.

Don't you just hate it when people make comments like that. :D

Wait. You're the same guy who thinks people are interested in the OMLOOP HET VOLK event. That sounds like a Dutch contraceptive device. Is that the Wooden Shoe Cyclocross Championships? Nothing like an exciting bike race on the cobblestones in Flanders the first week of March, eh? Wouldn't it be simpler for them to pound rusty spikes into their shins and be done with it?

Placebos are very effective, thank you.

I was reading a study not long ago looking at caffeine use in cycling events. It was a double blinded, placebo controlled trial, where one group got nothing, one got placebo, and one got a mega-dose of caffeine. The caffeine was superior to placebo (added 110 wats to max power!) but what I found interesting was the placebo group got a 38-watt increase in max power. Kinda interesting.

I was reading a study not long ago looking at caffeine use in cycling events. It was a double blinded, placebo controlled trial, where one group got nothing, one got placebo, and one got a mega-dose of caffeine. The caffeine was superior to placebo (added 110 wats to max power!) but what I found interesting was the placebo group got a 38-watt increase in max power. Kinda interesting.

So I can infer that pounding a red bull gives me something on the order of a 75 watt boost, and the resulting feeling of being a God amongst men/squirrel on meth provides the other 35 watts?

Sounds reasonable :D

>>but what I found interesting was the placebo group got a 38-watt increase in max power. Kinda interesting.<<

So if you drink decaf coffee before the race thinking it's real coffee and have a new pair of Zipps you should lap the field?

So I can infer that pounding a red bull gives me something on the order of a 75 watt boost, and the resulting feeling of being a God amongst men provides the other 35 watts?

Sounds reasonable :D

The dosing used in that trial was a little scary-- 5mg/kg. For my 90kg self, that would be 450mg of caffeine. One can of Red Bull has 80mg. You do the math. :D

>>but what I found interesting was the placebo group got a 38-watt increase in max power. Kinda interesting.<<

So if you drink decaf coffee before the race thinking it's real coffee and have a new pair of Zipps you should lap the field?

Exactly. Get the damn wheels, you weenie. And get the Powertap rear hub to pre-empt that urge. :D

So you're saying I should drink 4 Red Bulls and a caffeinated Gu before my next race? Sweet!

The EMTs are gonna think it's cool when I'm passed out on the gurney hooked up the monitor and reading 197bpm...

Zoom!