Advocacy & Safety - Cyclist killed by PU driver leaving parking lot - discussion

Her bicycle collided with a truck driven by a 46-year-old Kirkland man as he was leaving a store parking lot.

Recently while both cycling and walking I have noticed a preponderance of motorists failing to even hesitate when entering from a side street, or a driveway... somewhere in their minds the idea of a quick glance seems quite sufficient and off they go. (this has happened to me now 5 times in the last week and a half-- I would call that a "preponderance." Once while walking my dog.) BTW I tend to ride these local streets very center biased.

I had one gentleman (I use the word quite loosely) run a stop sign, at speed and then slam on his brakes... while I too came to a screeching halt and yelled "stop sign!" and pointed at the thing. His response included the F bomb and off he drove. There was a woman on foot approaching from the other direction... she too was quite taken aback. The other situations involved motorists exiting a side street or mall and then getting well out into the lane and slamming on the brakes and then invoking a sheepish "sorry."

While I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situations, I have seen that the hurried motorist simply assumes the road is clear... perhaps because it is a less used road or exit (in the case of a shopping mall) and they just blast right through.

The only solution seems to be to assume no one is going to stop and slow down and prepare to stop yourself... yet this seems to give motorists the impression that you are stopping for them.

I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.

From the other thread about the death of Autumn in Seattle:

the whole "don't depend on people seeing you without verifying they do so" is armchair riding to the extreme. it's as if the poster that wrote that doesn't ride much at all. A 'verify' requirement would lead to stimulus overload and stopping the bicycle, a lot, to attempt to achieve this 'verification' this other poster uses as a pet construct from the armchair.

how a rider 'verifies' they see you is pure conjecture. As I approach cars at intersections, I find drivers make pointedly obtuse attempts to NOT make eye contact with bicyclists.


There's a lot of blatant stop sign running, entering roads without looking, etc. Riding defensively is key, but 'verifying' every driver notices you is pure fallacy, straight from the armchair.

Recently while both cycling and walking I have noticed a preponderance of motorists failing to even hesitate when entering from a side street, or a driveway... somewhere in their minds the idea of a quick glance seems quite sufficient and off they go. (this has happened to me now 5 times in the last week and a half-- I would call that a "preponderance." Once while walking my dog.) BTW I tend to ride these local streets very center biased.

I had one gentleman (I use the word quite loosely) run a stop sign, at speed and then slam on his brakes... while I too came to a screeching halt and yelled "stop sign!" and pointed at the thing. His response included the F bomb and off he drove. There was a woman on foot approaching from the other direction... she too was quite taken aback. The other situations involved motorists exiting a side street or mall and then getting well out into the lane and slamming on the brakes and then invoking a sheepish "sorry."

While I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situations, I have seen that the hurried motorist simply assumes the road is clear... perhaps because it is a less used road or exit (in the case of a shopping mall) and they just blast right through.

The only solution seems to be to assume no one is going to stop and slow down and prepare to stop yourself... yet this seems to give motorists the impression that you are stopping for them.

I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.

I think in the cases you cite, its negligence on the part of the drivers in not taking a good look as they pull into a street. If you asked them, I think most would truthfully answer they didn't see you. This is certainly a danger, but in the situation, you have the advantage because distracted drivers are usually pretty easy to avoid.

What is really dangerous are the drivers who look right at you and pull out in front of you, because after all, they are inside 2 tons of steel and glass and nothing is going to happen to them in case of a collission. It is really amazing how many people cannot hesitate for a couple of seconds to let somebody by that has the right of way.

For a while I saw a lot of people running stop signs. I mean really running them. Not even slowing down. Seemed like something "cool" people were doing. And then suddenly it stopped. Maybe enough people complained about it.

Riding defensively is key, but 'verifying' every driver notices you is pure fallacy, straight from the armchair.

I find "verifying" is especially difficult when darkly tinted windows are involved.

Oddly enough (in spite of my thinking otherwise) none of the close calls I have experienced recently appeared to involve cell phones. (although the one "blackened" window situation would have been hard to tell, either way).

The real issue is that motorists are treating these stop and check situations a lot like a right on red... without the stop.

Every situation but one occured on quiet residential streets or side streets near industrial areas. These motorists appear to be assuming they are the only ones on these roads, and they are driving "fast" and are barely slowing, but not stopping.

I think in the cases you cite, its negligence on the part of the drivers in not taking a good look as they pull into a street. If you asked them, I think most would truthfully answer they didn't see you. This is certainly a danger, but in the situation, you have the advantage because distracted drivers are usually pretty easy to avoid.

What is really dangerous are the drivers who look right at you and pull out in front of you, because after all, they are inside 2 tons of steel and glass and nothing is going to happen to them in case of a collission. It is really amazing how many people cannot hesitate for a couple of seconds to let somebody by that has the right of way.

Yeah, this is where hesitation on the cyclists part seems to give some motorists permission to just blaze on.

... A 'verify' requirement would lead to stimulus overload and stopping the bicycle, a lot, to attempt to achieve this 'verification' this other poster uses as a pet construct from the armchair. ... There's a lot of blatant stop sign running, entering roads without looking, etc. Riding defensively is key, but 'verifying' every driver notices you is pure fallacy, straight from the armchair.

I didn't see the other post, but I do attempt to verify if I'm unsure I've been seen, and it does cause me to stop unnecessarily quite a bit. I guess I'm okay with that if it means I'm delayed 30 seconds but still alive. I don't mean to say that you don't ride safely if you don't ride the way I do, just that my personal threshold for risk is quite low.

The only solution seems to be to assume no one is going to stop and slow down and prepare to stop yourself... yet this seems to give motorists the impression that you are stopping for them.

Planning for Murphy, expecting the other guy to do the stupidest thing possible, yep that about covers it. I really don't see being 'prepared' to stop or bail as giving a motorist the impression of anything - you can be prepared without having to take some overt action.

I do verify that people see me. I don't ride an armchair, I ride my bike. But, I do ride in a rural area, where seeing a car may happen five or six times on a one hour ride. If I pass through an intersection where I have the right of way and the cross traffic has a stop sign, I make sure they see me before I proceed.

I find it ironic that the same cyclists complaining about drivers being too impatient to wait seconds are themselves too impatient to wait seconds to verify they have been seen. Whatever.

i'm confident this thread will spawn dozens of responses from one poster about the 'trust, but verify' armchair riding method.

In crowded urban environments, 'verifying' the driver has seen you is impractical artifice. Stop, in a lane of traffic with cars behind moving at speed, waiting for a driver at an intersection pointedly ignoring you to make eye contact? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Armchair riding.

For a while I saw a lot of people running stop signs. I mean really running them. Not even slowing down. Seemed like something "cool" people were doing. And then suddenly it stopped. Maybe enough people complained about it.

I will admit it has just suddenly started happening... just very coincidental. Hopefully it will stop as quick.

Planning for Murphy, expecting the other guy to do the stupidest thing possible, yep that about covers it. I really don't see being 'prepared' to stop or bail as giving a motorist the impression of anything - you can be prepared without having to take some overt action.

The overt action is slowing... which some motorists take as giving them ROW.

When a motorist is rapidly approaching a stop sign, and doesn't appear to be slowing themselves, I take the initiative to slow down be ready to stop short of the intersection... the motorists appear to take that as permission to run the stop sign and take advantage of the situation.

That was exactly what happened when the guy yelled the F bomb when I pointed out the stop sign.

In another case, there was no way to verify anything... the motorist was rapidly moving into the street from a Walmart lot and had tinted windows... I couldn't verify anything... I slowed, they flew.

In the other situations the motorists stopped well long, and into the street, but they did give the sheepish "sorry." I was walking in one case and stopped short. No problem... the other two involved me on bike and I slowed way down, then kept going while giving a glaring look.

But in the two cases cited above, just slowing seemed to tell the motorists to go ahead... BTW I was only doing about 15MPH in most of these situations.

I see this all the time, and it's probably the biggest threat that I regularly encounter while riding. I also think that for the most part, it's avoidable. That comes of course from my own personal experience, since I see it so often I've become very aware of it and can pretty much predict when it's likely to happen. Often I'll give a warning to my riding buddies like "watch this one, she's not stopping" and they'll look at me like I'm clairvoyant when it happens.

If you see it a lot at a particular place, go into the appropriate police station and talk to someone face to face, and get someone else you know that's seen it to do the same. They will often set up for a couple of days in problem areas and hand out a few tickets, which usually helps. They don't get everyone that does it of course, but they are seen giving tickets by a lot of people that didn't happen to get caught that day.

I think there is something we can do to reduce how often it happens to us, besides the avoidance. I have noticed that when I'm wearing one of my brighter jerseys, they become more aware, and if I have on my vest, it never happens. They may start to pull on out in front of me but will stop. I really do think that it's a combo of self-indulgence and the natural instinct to be focused on things that are threats to you.

And the problem isn't just with drivers, I see people on bikes do exactly the same thing all the time.

The overt action is slowing... which some motorists take as giving them ROW.


You mean you don't shift down and peddle faster, even though you are actually slowing, to give the driver the perception that you are speeding up? :D

Seriously, I think part of the problem is that drivers have a hard time judging our speed, so they really can't tell if we are slowing or accelerating - even if we give them some overt sign like ceasing to pedal or pedaling faster...they just don't pay that much attention to detail. Indeed, in the case where they aren't giving a good enough look to notice us at all, what actions we are taking are totally irrelevant to them because they don't see us in the first place.

I think the point I am trying to make is that we need to notice them way before they ever notice us, and be prepared to deal with whatever stupid thing they might do...it's more mental - knowing what we will do based on their actions, than physical - actually taking some action. But don't get me wrong...slowing is good and I agree, sometimes it does confuse them when they see us...but at least that means they see us. ;)
(I'm sounding like Yogi Berra here, ain't I?)

HID headlight
Prior attention to situation behind you
Ride center biased.
Prepare to stop hard, quick right turn into place motorist is exiting, or merge left into adjacent lane as they turn (this is why I keep aware of conditions behind me)

I find that the slower I ride the more often drivers pull in front of me. Which leads me to think that those drivers who do stop and look can tell if I am riding 10 or 20mph.

Al

i'm confident this thread will spawn dozens of responses from one poster about the 'trust, but verify' armchair riding method.

In crowded urban environments, 'verifying' the driver has seen you is impractical artifice. Stop, in a lane of traffic with cars behind moving at speed, waiting for a driver at an intersection pointedly ignoring you to make eye contact? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Armchair riding.


So don't do it all because 10% or even 50% of the drivers won't look at you. Sure it is impractical to stop at every intersection just because you can't verify. And frankly I don't ever stop unless I am about to be run over.

But, don't be stupid this isn't an all or none proposition. It takes no more effort to at least try to get eye contact from even a small percentage of drivers.

And to chipcom...I do speed up at intersections to signal to drivers that yes, I am going fast enough for them to wait for me.

i'm confident this thread will spawn dozens of responses from one poster about the 'trust, but verify' armchair riding method.

In crowded urban environments, 'verifying' the driver has seen you is impractical artifice. Stop, in a lane of traffic with cars behind moving at speed, waiting for a driver at an intersection pointedly ignoring you to make eye contact? NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Armchair riding.

Eye contact means nothing anyway. If I'm approaching an intersection and a motorist is rolling towards where they should stop, I'm going to start to react until I'm sure they are stopped. I don't care if they appear to be looking right at me. Any cyclist with any mileage has had a driver appear to make eye contact and then pull out in front of them. Just last week a guy did this to me while riding at 35mph downhill, centered in my lane, running a bright LED flasher (nearing sunset). I saw him rolling towards the stop line and was already braking when he pulled out so it was a non-issue.

With that said, there is not much you can do (other than creating as big a buffer as possible) to avoid drivers who show all signs of having noticed you (fully stopped and appearing to be waiting for traffic to clear) that still pull out. For this reason alone, not riding on the margins of the road when there is no other faster same direction traffic present is a prudent measure to take for your safety.

It's all about clearing an intersection, and you begin clearing an intersection many seconds before you get there, whether you are piloting a bicycle, car, truck, or whatever.

You put yourself where others can see you, of course with lights and bright clothing, you vaguely pre-plan an escape route, and when you spot them coming out without stopping, you warn, and slow / stop / evade.

If your attention is focused completely right in front of your front wheel, if you are not paying attention many seconds down the road, you will not be able to anticipate threats in this manner, and yes, people will think you are claivoyant.

I am not making this up, either. I'm basically quoting directly from the world-class driver safety training that we are all required to take at work (Schlumberger... oilfield equipment up to hundreds of thousands of dollars or more per truck). So if this is "armchair cycling", so be it. I don't care what anyone calls it. It works whatever vehicle you're piloting.

http://www.slb.com/content/services/resources/technicalpapers/technical_paper_details.asp?technicalPaperId=86750&




I see this all the time, and it's probably the biggest threat that I regularly encounter while riding. I also think that for the most part, it's avoidable. That comes of course from my own personal experience, since I see it so often I've become very aware of it and can pretty much predict when it's likely to happen. Often I'll give a warning to my riding buddies like "watch this one, she's not stopping" and they'll look at me like I'm clairvoyant when it happens.

I am not making this up, either. I'm basically quoting directly from the world-class driver safety training that we are all required to take at work (Schlumberger... oilfield equipment up to hundreds of thousands of dollars or more per truck). So if this is "armchair cycling", so be it. I don't care what anyone calls it. It works whatever vehicle you're piloting.

Our resident "expert" at identifying armchair cyclists is the only one calling your techniques (and others' similar techniques) armchair cycling.

no, the 'trust, but verify' constructs is armchair riding. Its a make believe construct.

Verify drivers how? using two way radio? a cell phone? semaphore? smoke signals?

or how about trust, and plan for Murphy?

In the area where I ride the car pulling in and out of the private drive is probably the greatest danger I face. It also constitutes about 90% of the car/bike accidents I have personally investigated. There is a state law that says people exiting a private drive must stop before proceeding, but it is rarely followed. I write that ticket quite frequently, and people get MAD! They just assume if it is open they can go ahead and cross the MUP at 35 mph.

From the other perspective, Just the other day I was riding to work and the left lane was backed up from a light that had just turned green, and I was in the right lane which was open on a five lane 50 mph road (with center both direction turn lane). I slowed to about 30-35 mph due to passing stopped/slowly moving traffic, and I saw the dreaded opening in the left lane meaning someone in the left lane had stopped to allow a car in the center lane to turn left in front of them. I slammed on the brakes, and thank god the guy in the center lane didn't go or I would have smoked him. If I had been on a bike in the road or MUP and this scenario played out I probably would have been dead.

(This perspective is from the MUP) The way I deal with this is when a car is pulling out of a drive I am about to cross I keep a close eye on them, but only reduce my speed enough to stop if I have to. As I approach I try to make eye contact, initiate some type of hand signal like waving and slow as needed until I get a cue from the driver that they see me like waving me through. 90% of the time the wave me through, but if I have to stop because I don't think they see me so be it. I would rather lose some time then get run over.

(Also from the MUP) When I see a car turning into a drive I just pretend like I am invisible <BeginFlamingHere> because typically I am. Most of the cars turning left are crossing 2 or 3 lanes or traffic that is moving at between 45 and 60 MPH so their attention is focused on the other cars. If I can make it safely to the other side before they turn I will go for it, but if I expect we will meet in the middle I stop for the same reason as above. Steely glares and blinky lights are great, but in the end I would rather lose some time than be run over.

**DISCLAIMER: I did not investigate the accident referenced in the OP, and am not commenting on it but on the dangers of private drives in general.

I'm a driver...a darned good one I figure since I haven't had an actual accident in 20 years and can count on one hand how many I had in my lifetime. I'm also a cyclist with about 40 some years on the bike. Yet I have a hard time judging the speed of a bicycle, no matter how fast or slow you are pedaling, if at all. Just food for thought for those of you who think you are sending messages to drivers by speeding up or slowing down.

(This perspective is from the MUP) The way I deal with this is when a car is pulling out of a drive I am about to cross I keep a close eye on them, but only reduce my speed enough to stop if I have to. As I approach I try to make eye contact, initiate some type of hand signal like waving and slow as needed until I get a cue from the driver that they see me like waving me through. 90% of the time the wave me through, but if I have to stop because I don't think they see me so be it. I would rather lose some time then get run over.

(Also from the MUP) When I see a car turning into a drive I just pretend like I am invisible <BeginFlamingHere> because typically I am. Most of the cars turning left are crossing 2 or 3 lanes or traffic that is moving at between 45 and 60 MPH so their attention is focused on the other cars. If I can make it safely to the other side before they turn I will go for it, but if I expect we will meet in the middle I stop for the same reason as above. Steely glares and blinky lights are great, but in the end I would rather lose some time than be run over.

This MUP sounds more like a sidepath the parallels a busy road and cross many side streets. Is that the case? If so, I would agree that to the drivers using the roadway, you are invisible/irrelevant on the sidepath.

This MUP sounds more like a sidepath the parallels a busy road and cross many side streets. Is that the case? If so, I would agree that to the drivers using the roadway, you are invisible/irrelevant on the sidepath.

Exactly, our MUP's are just wide sidewalks that are actually offset from the road anywhere from 5-20 feet.

I'm a driver...a darned good one I figure since I haven't had an actual accident in 20 years and can count on one hand how many I had in my lifetime. I'm also a cyclist with about 40 some years on the bike. Yet I have a hard time judging the speed of a bicycle, no matter how fast or slow you are pedaling, if at all. Just food for thought for those of you who think you are sending messages to drivers by speeding up or slowing down.

Couldn't agree more Chip. The only reason I mention speed at all is that I want to give the driver that is pulling out of a drive, if they see me, the impression that I am going through as I am legally allowed to, but I always allow myself the time/distance/speed to stop if I will need to.

A 'verify' requirement would lead to stimulus overload and stopping the bicycle, a lot, to attempt to achieve this 'verification' this other poster uses as a pet construct from the armchair.

how a rider 'verifies' they see you is pure conjecture. As I approach cars at intersections, I find drivers make pointedly obtuse attempts to NOT make eye contact with bicyclists.
First, as Joe and others have pointed out, eye contact has nothing to do with it. Eye contact means nothing in terms of verification that you've been noticed. What matters is what they are doing in terms of operating the vehicle in the context in which they are. In particular, it involves looking from something that they are doing that is peculiar to reacting to your presence.

Second, it's not about verifying whether any and every driver has noticed you. Doing that would indeed lead to stimulus overload. Fortunately, for the most part, it doesn't matter whether they've noticed you or not. So the first trick is to identify those few drivers whose attention your safety is about to depend on, before you put yourself into a situation where your safety does depend on their noticing you. If you can't verify that, you just avoid putting yourself in the situation where your safety depends on their noticing you, and that rarely requires coming to a complete stop. It may involve slowing (and, yes, yielding), but usually can be done by increasing your safety buffer. But I agree with Chip that it's mostly a matter of being prepared mentally. This is really nothing more than a rewording of one of Robert Hurst's main themes in Urban Cycling.



no, the 'trust, but verify' constructs is armchair riding. Its a make believe construct.

Verify drivers how? using two way radio? a cell phone? semaphore? smoke signals?

or how about trust, and plan for Murphy? It all depends on the situation.

For example, say you're approaching an uncontrolled intersection and someone coming the other way is slowing and signalling left; there is no other traffic. In that situation, if you weren't there, the normal/expected behavior for the driver is to slow some, but not stop, as he enters the intersection and turns left. If the driver is looking in your direction and altering from this normal expected behavior (slowing way down or even stopping, not beginning to turn yet, for no plausible reason other than to yield to you) then I would count that as a verification that they've noticed you. My main point is that if you are not getting any clues like that, then you should not enter the intersection in their path, even though you have the right of way. In any case, whether you think they've noticed you or not, you should be ready to quick turn to the right.

This is really nothing more than a rewording of one of Robert Hurst's main themes in Urban Cycling.


And I think Robert would agree that the concept isn't something he invented or made popular. These are basic self-defense techniques that apply to a wide range of activities. Kudos to Robert for applying it in his book.

Drivers not paying attention at driveways and sidestreets seems to a problem that very much depends on the type of day and intersection. Near my old workplace there was a major four lane street with pedestrian crosssings. On no fewer than 5 or 6 occasions I was nearly run down by drivers not even bothering to look for others. At least twice I kicked fenders. In other parts of the city if a driver thought you looked like you might want to cross in the middle of an intersection, they stopped instantly. Also, certain times of the day are worse than others as I noticed an increased density of squirrelly drivers during the morning and afternoon rush. Friday afternoons were the absolute worst.

At a minimum if you attempt to make eye contact and the person is obviously not looking at you, you will know it and take caution.

And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.

A driver will only look in the direction that he expects cars to drive from! There's no such thing as looking both ways! Usually a left look is al they need?

At a minimum if you attempt to make eye contact and the person is obviously not looking at you, you will know it and take caution.

And all this armchair cycling nonsense is ridiculous. I ride my bike 70-100 miles a week at a blistering 12-14 mph. So that means quite a few hours. I seem to be the only one who doesn't whine about the evil cagers. I must be doing something right.
:beer:

Trust me, you're not the only one not whining about the "evil cagers". Joejack, Galen, John Forester, Robert Hurst, Stephen Goodridge, Daily Commute, noisebeam, etc. etc., come to mind...

A driver will only look in the direction that he expects cars to drive from! There's no such thing as looking both ways! Usually a left look is al they need?

Yeah lot of them only look left when making a right, I would say close to 25% in my experience didn't look both ways. Too bad we don't give polygraph test for these types of cases. I really think we should mandate poly for all cases not just murder, missing persons.

While I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situations, I have seen that the hurried motorist simply assumes the road is clear... perhaps because it is a less used road or exit (in the case of a shopping mall) and they just blast right through.
What do you mean by, "I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situation". I mean, can you, or not? I, for one, expect a motorist to pull out of these driveway, take a quick glance, and go. The way I verify that they did notice me is that they don't do that... they glance, and stop, staring at me. Perhaps they look away, and then look back at me, making it obvious that they're waiting for me to go by. Absent that kind of confirmation, I do what I have to do. I'm probably already in a conspicuous centerish position, but I might merge further left into the left tire track (or even into the far left lane if there is no other same direction traffic). But the main thing is, per Chipcom's advice, to be mentally prepared. If there is no way to avoid having my safety depend on their noticing me before I can verify that they have noticed me, without slowing down, then I will slow down. Perhaps that's all they need to notice to cut out in front of me... So what? Let 'em go. That rarely happens to me. I can't remember the last time I actually had to slow down and someone took advantage of that like that.

I just don't see what the issue is.


The only solution seems to be to assume no one is going to stop and slow down and prepare to stop yourself... yet this seems to give motorists the impression that you are stopping for them.
Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.

I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.[/QUOTE]
The lack of hesitation is exactly that lack of verification that I'm talking about. Hestiation that is peculiar to noticing me is exactly what I'm looking for: confirmation that I'm seen. If they don't hesitate, they just go... so what? You shouldn't be somewhere we're you'll be hit by them when the do that since you were not yet able to confirm that they noticed you. That's the whole point.

Yeah lot of them only look left when making a right, I would say close to 25% in my experience didn't look both ways. Too bad we don't give polygraph test for these types of cases. I really think we should mandate poly for all cases not just murder, missing persons.
25%? I'd say 95%! But... so what? Under what situation do you need them to look right when making a right?

Here's what happened to me on the way to work one day last week.

It's pitch-black-dark on a two-lane, NOL, rural highway with paved shoulders and a 60 mph speed limit. No ambient light at all on this stretch. Any light stands out from the darkness like a beacon. T intersection, one of the few intersections on this stretch of highway and one of the even fewer paved intersections. The highway is the through street in this intersection and I'm in the right tire track of the right lane. I'm running a headlight on my handlebars. The batteries in my helmet light had died very shortly before this incident and I decided not to change them, even though I had fresh ones in my panniers. In the time it took to stop and change the batteries in that one light, I would be over half-way from where I was to where I was going. On the rear I have a Cateye TL-LD500, steady on, as backup to my Cateye TL-LD1000 which also provides side visibility, one bank steady on, the other on rapid flash. I have had on-coming cars pull off the road and stop because of the red flashing TL-LD1000, even though it is pointing away from them. I have reflective tape on the forks and seatstays for additional side visibility. I'm wearing reflective tape on my helmet and a ANSI yellow vest with ANSI orange reflective srips.

A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.

"HEY DUDE, YOU ALMOST HIT ME!! J***-A**!!!"

He easily heard me, even with the windows rolled up.

I expect him to accelerate to get away.

He stops.

I'm thinking we're going to throw-down in the middle of the highway in the dark. I don't care, I'm ready.

He rolls his drivers side window down, I stop still straddling the bike, far enough from his door he can't knock me over, but I can be off the bike before he can get out.

"I am very sorry, sir. I did not see you."

:eek: This is not what I expected at all, now I'm struggling to mentally shift gears.:o

"I am very sorry, I promise to be more careful in the future."

"Uh, yeah, okay. I'm sorry too, and I'll do a better job with the lights."

"I'm sorry, I'll be much more careful."

"I'm sorry, too. I'll do a better job with the lights. Thank you. Have a nice day."

"Thank you, sir. You have a nice day, too."

He drives off.

What really happened was he easily saw me and thought, "Bicycle=pedestrian speed=5 mph." By the time he took his eyes off me, looked to his right and began his turn, I was in the intersection at 18+ mph.

Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an oncoming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay within them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.

This holds up my end of the bargain.

I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.

...
I'm in the right tire track of the right lane.
...
A motor vehicle is approaching the insection from my right, he has the stop sign. He stops at the stop sign, and proceeds to turn right just as I'm reaching the intersection. I had to swerve into the oncoming lane to keep from getting sideswiped.
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Lessons learned on my part:
Be prepared to hit the brakes, even when you know you're right. If there had been an on-coming car I would have done this and this incident would have played out a different way and without the polite conversation.
Know the limits of the batteries for all your lights and stay with-in them.
If the batteries in your lights die, stop and change them.
That bike now has DOT C-2 certified reflective tape on it and more than before, with plans to DOT C-2 certified reflective tape my other bikes.
The spare headlight that used to ride in my panniers is now mounted on the handlebars as a second primary headlight. That with my helmet light gives me three headlights.
...
I want to find this guy and get to know him. Even though he lied (only because he didn't know what else to say, but there's nothing else you really can say in a situation like that), by stopping and apologizing he proved himself to be a man of honor and a gentleman.
Good story!

If you're right, I think he didn't fully understand what happened, and "didn't see you" was really the best way he could explain it. I suspect he ignored you subconsciously, because his subconscious didn't realize you were a threat/hazard, and, so, consciously, it was honest of him to say he "didn't see you". So I wouldn't call it a lie.

To your list of lessons I would add:

When approaching any intersection where right turns are authorized (and/or from which traffic can emerge), look back over your left shoulder and consider merging left, especially if there is no same direction behind you, and there is traffic from the right. Doing so accomplishes all of the following:
The movement left can be attention grabbing.
The movement left puts you further into the driver's "zone of attention'.
The sight lines to and from you are improved.
Your buffer zone is increased (in particular, if he does go, you are further from him and so have more time/space to evade).Moving left buys you all of the above, at a negligible cost. You can move right as soon as you cross the intersection, or, if you're confortable monitoring to the rear using a mirror, stay in the lane-controlling situation (which is arguably more conspicuous) while monitoring to the rear with the mirror, until faster same direction traffic approaches from behind.

Good story!

If you're right, I think he didn't fully understand what happened, and "didn't see you" was really the best way he could explain it. I suspect he ignored you subconsciously, because his subconscious didn't realize you were a threat/hazard, and, so, consciously, it was honest of him to say he "didn't see you". So I wouldn't call it a lie.
Quite correct, Serge. I didn't think about it this way.


To your list of lessons I would add:

When approaching any intersection where right turns are authorized (and/or from which traffic can emerge), look back over your left shoulder and consider merging left, especially if there is no same direction behind you, and there is traffic from the right. Doing so accomplishes all of the following:
The movement left can be attention grabbing.
The movement left puts you further into the driver's "zone of attention'.
The sight lines to and from you are improved.
Your buffer zone is increased (in particular, if he does go, you are further from him and so have more time/space to evade).Moving left buys you all of the above, at a negligible cost. You can move right as soon as you cross the intersection, or, if you're confortable monitoring to the rear using a mirror, stay in the lane-controlling situation (which is arguably more conspicuous) while monitoring to the rear with the mirror, until faster same direction traffic approaches from behind.
I agree. A couple of reasons why I don't normally move left for this particular intersection are, the maneuver that the driver pulled in this incident is very rare for drivers in this area, normally they will stop and wait even if they do have room to pull out safely, and the sight lines when approaching this intersection from the direction that he was, are wide open to the left for hundreds of feet back and down to the left. That corner is occupied by an unpaved, grassy, church parking lot.

But I agree with your points about why generally shifting left is a good idea at intersections.

I have noticed that when I'm wearing one of my brighter jerseys, they become more aware, and if I have on my vest, it never happens. They may start to pull on out in front of me but will stop. I really do think that it's a combo of self-indulgence and the natural instinct to be focused on things that are threats to you.

And the problem isn't just with drivers, I see people on bikes do exactly the same thing all the time.

Everytime this happened, I was wearing just regular shorts and a shirt... sometimes a red shirt, but not a bright yellow or lime green vest. And I was wearing a hat.

I think a lot of this comes from motorists trying to "sneak by," figuring "it's just a biker... " I think some of it comes from underestimating the speed of cyclists and some comes from a lack of respect.

What do you mean by, "I would like to think I could confirm that I have been seen in such situation". I mean, can you, or not? I, for one, expect a motorist to pull out of these driveway, take a quick glance, and go. The way I verify that they did notice me is that they don't do that... they glance, and stop, staring at me. Perhaps they look away, and then look back at me, making it obvious that they're waiting for me to go by. Absent that kind of confirmation, I do what I have to do. I'm probably already in a conspicuous centerish position, but I might merge further left into the left tire track (or even into the far left lane if there is no other same direction traffic). But the main thing is, per Chipcom's advice, to be mentally prepared. If there is no way to avoid having my safety depend on their noticing me before I can verify that they have noticed me, without slowing down, then I will slow down. Perhaps that's all they need to notice to cut out in front of me... So what? Let 'em go. That rarely happens to me. I can't remember the last time I actually had to slow down and someone took advantage of that like that.

I just don't see what the issue is.


Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.

I believe this situation, of motorists not even hesitating, is perhaps what killed the young woman, mentioned earlier here on BF.
The lack of hesitation is exactly that lack of verification that I'm talking about. Hestiation that is peculiar to noticing me is exactly what I'm looking for: confirmation that I'm seen. If they don't hesitate, they just go... so what? You shouldn't be somewhere we're you'll be hit by them when the do that since you were not yet able to confirm that they noticed you. That's the whole point.[/QUOTE]

Hey I wasn't hit in any of these situations... so clearly I can judge that drivers are being bad.

My issue is that the motorists I mention are not even trying. At higher speeds the driver just cruising a stop sign or doing a quick glance might be moving so fast that a cyclist moving at say 35MPH on an intersecting course doesn't even see the car until they make contact. Yet again it comes down to cyclists having to CYA due to motorists that chose to not even try.

In the case of two of these drivers, they zoomed out in such a way that I could not see them until I was right in their path... due to other obstructions (cars, houses, bushes) and a narrow road.

Yeah I avoided them all, but not everyone can... as evidenced by a recent death.

A couple of reasons why I don't normally move left for this particular intersection are, the maneuver that the driver pulled in this incident is very rare for drivers in this area, normally they will ... Hence, looking back and merging left (if no same direction traffic) at all approaches to intersections is a "best practice".

I remember reading somewhere that you're most likely to get in a car crash within some really short distance from your home. I suspect this applies to cyclists too, and for the same reason. On our regular routes we are more apt to get complacent and go on "auto pilot". That's why it's important to develop habits that conform to best practices, so that even when you're on autopilot you're compelled (by habit) to look back and merge left (if it's clear). Such habits are also good for snapping you out of mindless autopilot mode...

The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle is something I experienced 3 times in 10 minutes yesterday morning, despite driving a fire engine red Vespa with the headlight on, despite riding down the center of the lane, despite drivers even looking right at me.

And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.

the "trust but verify" statement, conjured up to explain America's failure to follow disarmament treaties during the cold war, is some of the most worthless, empty, pedantic armchair riding advice I've seen from helmet head.

IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.

VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....

trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.

It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?

worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.

Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"

i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.

Such habits are also good for snapping you out of mindless autopilot mode...
Some of us don't go on autopilot while riding. There's too much to see that might be missed.

The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle is something I experienced 3 times in 10 minutes yesterday morning, despite driving a fire engine red Vespa with the headlight on, despite riding down the center of the lane, despite drivers even looking right at me.

And yeah, come to think of it, people emerging from private drives is probably the most common close call I have, especially if they have to back out, and especially if they are driving something large. It happens so much that sometimes if I see a vehicle backing out of a driveway I just ride on the wrong side of the road.

Yeah. I tend to do the same thing when I see backing vehicles... but the stuff I am talking about is not backing vehicles.

What I am talking about are vehicles coming straight out of mall like driveways... and plunging right into the street because either the motorists assume nothing is there, or they don't give a damn, or they see a bike and make a decision that "bikes don't matter" or that they can squeeze by/force you anyway. I do think size does have something to do with it... where these motorists are using size to determine ROW vice the very well thought out rules that are supposed to govern their thinking.

I see the same thing where smaller residential streets meet faster streets... where again, motorists make the assumption that it is clear by default, and stop signs in their "hood" don't matter to them.

Sure a sharp cyclist is going to pick this up and be alert for it. I was, I saw it, I stopped, and I did not get creamed. (this time) But the fact remains that it is motorists choosing to not follow ROW that is making our task just a bit more defensive.

And again at a higher bike speed (bike speed in particular) I have less room to react, and the potential damage of a collision is greater.

So imagine that in any situation, you are a sharp cyclist moving at 35-45MPH down a hill, and center biased in the road, and well conspicuous in your lime green jacket... and poised for defense... why would you ever hit a car entering from a side street? or making a left turn across you?

It does and has happened. So there must be a flaw somewhere.

the "trust but verify" statement, conjured up to explain America's failure to follow disarmament treaties during the cold war, is some of the most worthless, empty, pedantic armchair riding advice I've seen from helmet head.

IF he rode a fair bit, he'd know that 'verifying' a driver has seen you is impossible. I can be riding down the MIDDLE of the travel lane, as a steady stream of traffic approaches me in the opposite lane. AT night- or during the day. Lots of intersections, driveways, etc.

VERIFYING they've noticed me as a bicyclist? plueaze, what artifice....

trust but verify is pithy, worthless witicism; armchair advice about riding.

It doesn't happen, you don't get to 'verify' anything. You can see a car stopped at an intersection, and be able to verify NOTHING, even while riding smack dab in the middle of the lane. Are they going to pull out? yes? no?

worthless advice. A pathetic masquerade of the armchair cyclist.

Now, i'm out taking the lane, riding assertively and defensively, more than most (and certainly more than those like HH that drive more than half their paltry 6 mile commutes) signalling my intent "I'm pulling thru this intersection" by signalling straight aheads, etc, watching cars for signs of pulling out, but "verify?"

i'll leave that to armchair games played by the sophist about his "bicycling" technique.


So don't do it and stop whining. HH isn't the only one who does this. And not everyone who does things differently from you is an armchair cyclist. You don't know me from a hole in the wall. How do you know how much I ride or don't ride?

Look, slow and steady, I'm not criticising you or your 70-100 miles a week. that's about my mileage, but did 40 on Sunday and 60 on Tuesday, so this week I'm up a bit.

However, if you attempt to use mr. head's 'trust, but verify'- man, what a WORTHLESS statement- while bicycling, and have to 'verify' every single car is 'noticing' you with some physical or lane que they've done so, but its unrealistic traffic scenario, one made up and constructed by a great armchair rider.



Why? Why can't you observe them and note that they are behaving in a way that is peculiar to having noticed you? Sure, if you can't make that kind of confirmation, then you're crazy to proceed into space where you're vulnerable to get hit by them.



this is just bunk, armchair riding of the lowest order. there's lots of potential of unsignallled left hooks, even while riding smack dab in the center of the road. helemt head might be trying to tell people to

"BE OBSERVANT" while riding, and I agree with that, but 'trust, but verify' is paranoid musings from an armchair.


Think straight roads, lots of intersections, lots of oncoming traffic. 'peculiar' verification of a car noticing you? I call BS.

I watch for cues a car HASN'T noticed me. this pithy 'trust but verify' cold war slogan rings hollow for bicycling. it sure sounds good in the armchair though, i bet.

I think a lot of this comes from motorists trying to "sneak by," figuring "it's just a biker... " I think some of it comes from underestimating the speed of cyclists and some comes from a lack of respect.
I think this 'pushing' in a gap in traffic in front a driver forcing them to slow, even slow hard, happens to drivers of all vehicles. I'd say it happens to me more often when driving a motor vehicle compared to my bike with ANSI yellow shirt and HID headlight.

Al

However, if you attempt to use mr. head's 'trust, but verify'- man, what a WORTHLESS statement- while bicycling, and have to 'verify' every single car is 'noticing' you with some physical or lane que they've done so, but its unrealistic traffic scenario, one made up and constructed by a great armchair rider.

Well, I don't do it because HH swears by it. I do it because it works for me, in my neighborhood, with my traffic, at the times I ride. I realize it isn't practical in many other settings, but don't bash an entire concept that may work in some areas just because it doesn't work in others.

Frankly its egocentric. Not everyone rides where you ride, when you ride, on the bike you ride, with the traffic you ride with. There are about 6 billion other people in the world NOT like you.

agree with that.

I find 'trust, but verify' a meaningless, vacous, cold war slogan being used as some type of traffic advice when its really nonsense. Verify a car has seen you? please. as a cyclist, you verify nothing. even a car stopped with a driver looking straight at you may pull out, even after you've supossedly 'verified' the driver has stopped for you. as in Gene's examples.

I find 'trust, but verify' a misappropriation of a cold war slogan that actually DOESN'T carry over to riding technique. you as a rider get to verify nothing about the automobiles. until they've ceased to be a concern, at which time you could verify you've passed them safely, i guess.

worthless musings of an armchair cyclist (not YOU, slow and steady) do you actually say to yourself "trust, but verify" when you pass other traffic? that's ridiculous in my personal, high mileage opinion. you're free to do what you want, but the advice to

"verify" a driver sees you, using some visual cue, before you put yourself in potential conflict zone is HIGHLY UNREALISTIC for on road riding.

The "sneak by" just because it's a "fill in the blank smaller than me" vehicle ...I don't think it is just the size that prompts the "sneak by"...it is the driver's percption that the vehicle in question is "slow." Why? Because drivers try to "sneak by" in front of very large trucks and busses too, perceiving them to be moving slower than they are.

A lot of good stuff in this thread, but a few misconceptions. First, I'll back up: I am a driver. I drive an average of 40-50k miles a year on all kinds of conditions - city, countryside and suburbs. In all kinds of vehicles - large box trucks, sports cars, FedEx delivery truck, minivan, etc. And I drive for fun, for employment and even for competition. I am well into the second million miles since my last accident (1981!) Just so's you know where I'm coming from. ;) Here are some of my accident-prevention tips, many of them also apply to cycling:

On the "trust and verify" thing. I think a better way to put it is to "look and read" . Look at each driver who could put you in an unsafe situation, and try to read his/her intentions. Whether you get actual eye contact or not is not crucial, but it helps if you do. The window-tint thing makes this tougher...I wish police would do a better job of enforcing those rules.

Yes, people (me included) often coast a car out of a parking lot. In most cases, there isn't a stop sign or painted stop bar to prevent it (although deputy's comment about Michigan's state law made me think ("Hmmmm"). :D

In my personal driving rules (an actual, as-yet-unwritten book that is lodged in my brain) this discussion falls under the general category of "Assume the Worst". In any traffic situation, I assume that the other driver is going to do the wrong thing and prepare in my mind what would be my "out" of the situation that the "wrong thing" caused. If someone is approaching the street from the side, I expect them not to stop...until they actually do. Before it comes to that decision point, I have already looked behind me and to my left for potential escape routes. And if they don't appear to be paying attention, I've already begun to avoid their ****-up before it happens.

Another tip relevant to this topic is: Don't just look for the driver's eyes...always look at the front wheel(s) of the other car. Anything the vehicle is going to do (dynamically) will be visible first at the front wheel.