Mountain Biking - Hate the new shimano "integration"

God i cant stand it!
Oh, you want xtr disc brakes? hmm well you'll have to buy our hubs then, because the rotors only fit on those. Oh yeah, and the shifters, they only work with our deraiuller thats like $150

does this bother ANYONE else.?? I dont actually want XTR discs, but its the principle...

Yes adam, its stupid. Thats why all you freeriders and downhillers should go with the Campaganolo DH/FR group coming out. It would be cool (However its called Diabolus or something)

Yeah it sucks big time!

Campy is venturing into DH/FR ??? Huh, who'd ah thunk it. I know they made MTB parts way back when, but still....

Personally, I prefer SRAM mtb stuff.

You can use the xtr calipers with the XT rotors. THen you can use whatever hubs you want.

B1105, I think the Campy FR/Dh Groupo (Diablos) was an April fools joke.

yeah I know you can get around the system, its just so bothersome as a concept, thats a good idea about the rotors though KevinG.

Ive seen pictures of the Shimano FR (saint) and Campy FR (diablo) so im not so sure its a joke

Originally posted by sparticus
Ive seen pictures of the Shimano FR (saint) and Campy FR (diablo) so im not so sure its a joke

The Shimano Saint stuff is for real. THe Campag stuff is not, I think.

I think the Magura Martas are light weight discs, get those instead of Shimano XTR.. The XT hydros are nice though..Have you guys ever seen the setup where the are two discs per wheel?

Join the club.

errr...mumblemumble...planned obsolescence...mumble...shimano...mumblemumble...evil....mmmm

Yeah I am really annoyed by the fact that my Volvo pistons don't fit in my Dodge van and my carbs on my yamaha won't work on my Kawasaki. For that matter Xbox discs won't work in my Playstation II. It is not the obligation of Shimano to make their stuff fit every body elses stuff. Suntour, remember them, made no effort to make their stuff fit any body elses. If Shimano made crap their stuff wouldn't be on the market still,now would it? Of course here I am using a ragged Gateway with no dam five. Sorry, that was a bit of a rant.

Back in the day a guy named Eli Whitney came up with the idea for interchangable parts. There has been an industry standard in all types of industries ever since then. (light bulbs, electrical sockets, even pencil lead have standard shapes and sizes) Bikes have allways been so interchangable, its a shame that suddenly Shimano cant rely on high quality alone to maintain customers, and has to sink to the level of locking their customers into a "contract" of buying more of their parts or putting that nice new XTR crankset they payed $200 for on the shelf in their garage just to keep their old BB.

How long have you worked on bikes? There has been French, Swiss, English and Italian standards for headset and BB. Only English and Italian are left and Italian just barely. Except of course for 1",1 1/8",1 1/4" and now one and a half inch head set sizes.
I have to have nine spoke wrenches in three styles just to true wheels.
I need a special bearing press just to take apart a king hub, a special tool just to adjust it for that matter. Special tools for adjusting Mavic hubs. A special tool just to put a permalink on a campy chain.
I have spent many years working in the mechanics world and most manufacturers don't try to make their product fit any body elses stuff. Tires, light bulbs, and belts, thats about it.
The new XTR crank has an integrated BB, the spindle is part of one crank arm with out board bearings.

(edit) I almost forget the wonderful Schwinn specific tire, that still appears from time to time.

Go Rev! Preach it :D

what was so incompatible about Suntour? I always preferred it over Shimano as it didn't have the 'new model, new tools' policy.

Originally posted by Rev.Chuck
Only English and Italian are left and Italian just barely. Except of course for 1",1 1/8",1 1/4" and now one and a half inch head set sizes.

And don't forget the various integrated headsets-we can't keep up with the bearing and cup sizes!:mad:

Solid rant, Rev!:thumbup:

Originally posted by sparticus
Back in the day a guy named Eli Whitney came up with the idea for interchangable parts. There has been an industry standard in all types of industries ever since then. (light bulbs, electrical sockets, even pencil lead have standard shapes and sizes) Bikes have allways been so interchangable, its a shame that suddenly Shimano cant rely on high quality alone to maintain customers, and has to sink to the level of locking their customers into a "contract" of buying more of their parts or putting that nice new XTR crankset they payed $200 for on the shelf in their garage just to keep their old BB.

Umm standards for light bulbs... maybe in your home...
We maintain traffic signals, there are NEMA standards, but even in these standards, there are allways special features, which vary from manufacturer, to manufacturer.
Then Cal trans decided that they would make thier own spec, and low and behold it was a more costly item, as an analogy, you were forced into buying a hummer, when all you needed was a taxi.
Standards are great, but honestly, Shimano 9 speed chains are theoreticaly not the same as SRAM or KMC, they work, but a shimano chain wont wear the sides of a cog, like a SRAM will.
So there is your special feature.
hmmm now I feel beter!! End to rant... anyone wanna go for a beer?

Scoob:beer:

Originally posted by Rev.Chuck
How long have you worked on bikes? There has been French, Swiss, English and Italian standards for headset and BB. Only English and Italian are left and Italian just barely. Except of course for 1",1 1/8",1 1/4" and now one and a half inch head set sizes.
I have to have nine spoke wrenches in three styles just to true wheels.
I need a special bearing press just to take apart a king hub, a special tool just to adjust it for that matter. Special tools for adjusting Mavic hubs. A special tool just to put a permalink on a campy chain.
I have spent many years working in the mechanics world and most manufacturers don't try to make their product fit any body elses stuff. Tires, light bulbs, and belts, thats about it.
The new XTR crank has an integrated BB, the spindle is part of one crank arm with out board bearings.

(edit) I almost forget the wonderful Schwinn specific tire, that still appears from time to time.

Because it has been like that forever doesn't make it right. Standards are a good thing. Period.

thanks rev, I know alot more now

I am not trying to start anything, but I have to defend Shimano some. Without them bikes would either be $100 Walmart bikes or $5000 full customs. Try and build up a bike with no Shimano parts on it and not spend a fortune(more than a $1000) but still have a nice bike. Especially a mountian bike.
They do screw up, the Dura/Ace BB is less than good. I have seen many failures including my own.
I wish they continued to offer 8-speed upper end shifters for people who just broke one shifter on an otherwise fine bike. That is something to get annoyed about.
The thing about Suntour compatibility was that they made no effort to be compatible with Shimano(neither does Campy) Altho the reason Suntour went out of business was not compatibility issues but due to a huge recall on coaster brake hubs, simple spec error, but it bankrupted the company. They made a good product.

Originally posted by Rev.Chuck
I am not trying to start anything, but I have to defend Shimano some. Without them bikes would either be $100 Walmart bikes or $5000 full customs. Try and build up a bike with no Shimano parts on it and not spend a fortune(more than a $1000) but still have a nice bike. Especially a mountian bike.
They do screw up, the Dura/Ace BB is less than good. I have seen many failures including my own.


I agree. They make cost efficient items but their newly found proprietary options are what is frustrating. While I know their bb and cranks have been proprietary that can be avoided and in fact still can.

I have no faith in the brake/shifter combo and believe it is too expensive for freeriders to fix. Most freeriders I know use CRAP drivetrain parts in order to save money. Deore deraileur and sometimes even low end road parts. Shimano is trying to increase the price of the drive train when thats not what we want. Lots of people break levers this is my number 1 complaint. The cost of these levers is going to be outrageous.

Past that the whole deraileur on the rear hub requiring ONLY shimanos discs. Well thats not good either. Their hubs blow. There are not enough engagement points and most high end freeriders don't use shimano hubs anymore. This means they can't have ANYTHING shimano on the rear of their drive train. In order for me not to diss shimano I see a couple of areas to fix

1 - make two options for shifters a) brake/shifter combo b)rapid fire
2 - Improve the quality of their hubs to match hopes or hadleys and this includes engagement points (if you are going to make high end parts you might as well make them all the way)
3 - don't force these changes on the LX or deore line...leave a good low end line

Those are my biggest complaints (I also don't like the deraileur attached to the hub but I can see why they would think its a good idea). If they try to force that expensive brake shifter combo down my throat then I can clearly say 'they suck'.

Without improvement there is stagnation! I personally do not like the new shifters for my own use, but for many, it's a nice feature. I applaude Shimano and all the other companies out there doing thing "outside the box" in an effort to improve the industry.

Personally, I think Shimano takes things too far and like the Rev. stated, no longer makes previous incarnations. It is my humble opinion, that the XTR 8-Speed Rapid Fire shifter paired to an XTR (NOT Rapid Rise) long cage with an XT Cassette was a good as it needed to get. I didn't like 9-Speed when it came out and still think it's too fragile for mountain biking. I've snapped my share of chains and taken my share of falls as a result.

It would be sooooo sweeeeeeeet if the new SAINT line went back to 7 speed with a WIDE chain, but that would be admitting fault, and Shimano would never take a step back. I'm sure they are trying to figure out how to make room for a 10-speed cassette or even Quad Chainring crankset.

The benefit to advancements is trickle down technology. Have you checked out some new $300 bikes? These would have been considered $1500 bikes back in, oh let's say, '95.

Be careful what you wish for, if Shimano went belly up, it would be a drastic blow to the cycling industry.

L8R

Originally posted by a2psyklnut
Personally, I think Shimano takes things too far

Yea they're good; the whole reason im upset is not because I dislike shimano, im a "fan," I just don't want to change the whole drivetrain when one part breaks, ya know?

well then dont change the whole drivetrain when one part breaks!!!!

edit : spell

easier said than done, please note maelstrom's last post (ex, saint rear derailleur)

psyklnut, I had forgotten Rapid Rise. You had to remind me. Rapid Rise, the answer to the question " What did the Shimano engineers do after the four day Meth/LSD bender?". We still have one of those XTR der. There is one guy that comes in every now and then to see if we still have it, he has one and likes it but won't commit to ours.

I have built a VERY nice mountain bike using Shimano's parts VERY sparingly. And actually I probably paid less total than if I'd used equivalent Shimano parts. Oh.. and every part on my bike also works with practically every other manufacturers standard parts, too. Standards are a good thing. I dislike Shimano, so I try like hell to stay away from their parts.. it's pretty simple, really.

I can't be fussed about who likes Shimano and who does'nt. The facts are :
They make the best hubs $ for pound.
Their shifters are better than anything lese out there.
Their Derailleurs are by far the best SRAM included
Their Crank sets are the best value for money
Their BB's outlast everything else offroad. ISIS? what a load of crap!

Their chains are crap though.

Rapid Rise is the most logical thing they have invented and I hope it never dies. Absolutley brilliant stuff.

Right so you don't want to be locked into using Shimano components. Then don't. buy bits from everywhere else.
Personally I like to be able to walk into any bike shop anywhere in teh world and buy a similar component to the one which has just broken. Who else offers that?

Long live Dual Control
Long Live Rapid Rise
Long live Octalink
Long ive Shimano.

Hey Tim, need another derailleur? Rev.Chuck, has one for sale!

L8R

TimB is talking out of his ass.

Originally posted by TimB
The facts are :
They make the best hubs $ for pound.



Yeah cheap. No engagement points and disposable...not the best for the money just the most easy to dispose of.



Their Crank sets are the best value for money


Smoking some funny stuff lately? FSA right now probably offers the strongest most durable cranks for the money with Raceface being up there as well. Shimano definately doesn't own this category.



Their BB's outlast everything else offroad. ISIS? what a load of crap!


Now I hope you are just being sarcastic for the sake of being sarcastic. Please let you be a troller...PLEASE!!! :D...

Shimano makes great stuff for xc. Yes they do...xc :D

Originally posted by Maelstrom

Shimano makes great stuff for xc. Yes they do...xc :D

Even for XC, I defer to other brands where they're superior. Here's the breakdown on my XC bike of components in Shimano's playing field:

Shimano:
-- Front Hub (came stock but will probably switch to Mavic wheelsets in the future)
-- Rear Hub (came stock but will probably switch to Mavic wheelsets in the future)
-- Shifters
-- Brake Levers
-- Computer
-- Cables
-- Front Derailleur
-- Rear Derailleur
-- Cassette

Race Face:
-- Headset
-- Stem
-- Bottom Bracket
-- Crankarms
-- Chainrings

Avid:
-- Front Brake
-- Rear Brake

SRAM:
-- Chain

Pedals:
-- Time

Shoes:
-- Sidi

From past experience with Shimano's MTB stuff, I find that in general, they're pretty good with the intricate parts (Shimano shifting is uber smooth) but get surpassed in the areas where the parts are simpler but need to be more durable.

I'm no troller
and you'e right they stuff is geared toward XC.

If anyone has RR derailleurs they don't want I'll give youmy postaL address and you can send for free.
As faras I'm concerned RR is the bees knees in MTB hifting.

And whats wrong with Shimano Cranks??? They're stiff, quite light excellent finish quality and they're cheap (exceot XTR).

Also the BB's are the most hassle free I've used. Tried ISIS and it failed after 3months. Sold the cranks junked the BB and got a Coda Tarantual running on a ES70. Thats been running for a yr in the british climate. no play , no squeaks, no problemo.

And the hubs, Well if you compare them to King hubs then yeah their engagement is lousy, but Kings make all other hubs look lousy. But £430 for King hubs vs £150 for XTR!! I think I'll stay with the XTR thanks. I can have another set of wheels for the price of the King hubs.

All in all Shimno gives you way more bang for your buck than any of the small manufacturers. Anyone who denies this is deluding himself.
Now if you prefer boutique brands, then say so. I choose function over brand name.
Forme Shimano gets the job done, efficiently and reliably. What more can you ask for.

and you'e right they stuff is geared toward XC


Thats probably the issue. This is suppost to be a gruppo dedicated to dhillers and freeriders and I assume this includes urban guys as well.


Originally posted by TimB
And whats wrong with Shimano Cranks??? They're stiff, quite light excellent finish quality and they're cheap (exceot XTR).



To be honest I am not a good enough rider to tell the difference. But being forced to use one or the other is pissy. I also don't like the look.



Also the BB's are the most hassle free I've used. Tried ISIS and it failed after 3months. Sold the cranks junked the BB and got a Coda Tarantual running on a ES70. Thats been running for a yr in the british climate. no play , no squeaks, no problemo.


Xc maybe but I have blown out a couple of shimano bb's. Not to say they are the worst (I don't like truvative as I smoked those in 2 weeks). Raceface and FSA are where it is at for strenght in bb area imo.



And the hubs, Well if you compare them to King hubs then yeah their engagement is lousy, but Kings make all other hubs look lousy. But £430 for King hubs vs £150 for XTR!! I think I'll stay with the XTR thanks. I can have another set of wheels for the price of the King hubs.


Actually compare them to ANYTHING. 90% of the aftermarket hubs have double the engagement points if not more. The aftermarket ones are also more durable and easier to rebuild (in some cases) CK is an exception as I agree dollar for dollar CK don't offer much value for the average rider.



All in all Shimno gives you way more bang for your buck than any of the small manufacturers. Anyone who denies this is deluding himself.


You are right. But McDonalds give me my best bang for buck when it comes to dinner. It still isn't good for me or most hardcore dh and freeriders :D




Forme Shimano gets the job done, efficiently and reliably. What more can you ask for.

Since this is for the freeride and dh side of things I still think this gruppo leaves a lot to be desired. I have named why and am still 100% sure I am right. :)

BTW I was kidding about the troller thing :)

LOL!!
Ok for freeriding and DH the XTR was never intended. The where the New saint gruppo fits in. And it has all the right ingredients for an excellent set of parts for that application.

The new XTR type BB/Crank interface is ver very stiff and should be bloody strong. Also easy to service and Q factor is not an issue. It's actually the same as my Coda Taratula which is lower than a Deore LX.
The hubs are still cup and cone and thats far bettter for the kind of loads that free riders and DH 'ers exert on their components. Youdon't find cartridge bearing s in MotoX bikes do you? They're all cup and cone.

And Shimano hubs are dead easy to service. OK the freehubs do have a reputation of exploding although I've never had one break on any ofmy MTB's

I've had Hope Xc hubs and sold them and the spare set. Just required to much maiantenance to keep them running. If I add up the time for the miantenence and service bills at the LBS I would rather have just replaced the freehub each time.

Originally posted by TimB
LOL!!
Ok for freeriding and DH the XTR was never intended. The where the New saint gruppo fits in. And it has all the right ingredients for an excellent set of parts for that application.



I thought thats what we were talking about. My mistake :) As for the right ingredients. Don't even get me started. I have posted enough times on why I think this gruppo needs some changes.



And Shimano hubs are dead easy to service. OK the freehubs do have a reputation of exploding although I've never had one break on any ofmy MTB's


I blow a freehub every 2 months or so. And absolutely destroyed the front hub within 6 month (I mean the thing blew up, pretty cool to watch if I hadnt been on the bike)

Any there is no need to keep going round and round. I disagree and don't think the hub/der is a good thing or even the shimano disc brake idea of requiring their brakes. Proprietary sucks. Dont get me wrong I like Shimano but in 1985 I chose PC over Mac for the very reasons I will choose someone (I don't know who yet) over shimano.

I do hav one change to all of the things I have said against the saint group. I said at one point you could not run ANY other chainguide with their bb crank interface. I have been told by a friend I am wrong. It does fit regular chain guides...:)