Framebuilders - The great conspiracy

Dear all

I am fairly new to this forum and I would like your collective thoughts on a subject that I think could cause alot of people feeling they had been had by the bike industry.

I have recently had a very long and in depth discussion with someone who has been in the bike trade selling top end Italian road frames for along time. It was suggested that alot of large, world renowned Italian bike compaines are having their frames made in the Far East and having them imported to Italy to finish and paint them. I know that Colnago are having some their carbon and alloy frames made in Taiwan because it says so on the downtube, which is fine because you then know what you are buying. Though according to this source, alot of the other Italian frame builders are doing this but telling the customer it is made in Italy! I'm not just talking about the lower end frames, but the top end ones too.

This is particulary of interest to me as I own a few modern Italian frames and paid a 'not so little amount of money' believing they were made in a factory in Italy, by a world renowned master craftsman with years of experience welding frames.

Is there any truth in this? If so, then their are an awful lot of people out there being lied to and spending their hard earned cash on something thats not what they think it is, which is just plain wrong! Any thoughts or evidence to this being true would be welcome, Best Regards.

I know that when Antonio Mondonico was still making his frames, they were HIS frames.

He pinned the lugs. You can see the pins sticking out if you remove the BB.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I cannot imagine a mass production factory anywhere doing this.

The majority of "Italian" frames produced today come from outside Italy. Even the ones made in Italy come from somewhere other than the name on the downtube. It's no secret or conspiracy. It's the way it is and has been for a century; OEM is a reality, the "myth" is usually marketing.

Hi

So its possible that my 'made in Italy De Rosa' aluminium frames are not made in Italy? Or if they are they are not made by De Rosa themselves, but made by another source in Italy? Oh my....!

Thanks for any feedback.

There are laws detailing what specific circumstances must be met in order to put the "made in..." label on a product. If someone purchases a frame, I think it's pretty clear that the origin of manufacturer needs to be indicated. Where the issue gets confusing is if a company imports raw frames and then does some finish work and paints them. Most likely the company can claim that the frame is made in the final country that did work on them. With a bike I think a company can purchase components from Shimano in Japan, a frame from Taiwan, and assemble in US - thus earning a "made in USA" label.

Seeing as to how this is a framebuilders forum...in my opinion, when you build a few frames yourself the mystique of the storied builders doesn't hold as much value as it did before. Some people put way to much significance in who, or what company, built their frame. So your Colnago was built in Taiwain, no issue from where I sit - other than you paid way too much.

The majority of "Italian" frames produced today come from outside Italy. Even the ones made in Italy come from somewhere other than the name on the downtube. It's no secret or conspiracy. It's the way it is and has been for a century; OEM is a reality, the "myth" is usually marketing.

So you just reassert the myth, which is just about all anyone does. Has anyone actually been in an Italian shop/factory and witnessed this happening? And I'm not thinking about the ones where the manufacturers are being upfront (e.g. the low end Colnagos, Bianchi, etc.). Sometimes the wording on Italian promotional materials makes it sound like the myth is possibly true, but then again maybe it is just sloppy translation. At least the likes of Trek use the 'designed in the USA' cop-out.

I know that when Antonio Mondonico was still making his frames, they were HIS frames.

He pinned the lugs. You can see the pins sticking out if you remove the BB.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I cannot imagine a mass production factory anywhere doing this.

Pinning lugs is an age old method of framebuilding used at all levels of production, from cheapest to costliest. You can see pinning on old $129.99 gitanes to top of the line frames.

Nearly all larger manufacturers have their frames made in Asia. This phenomenom is prevalent in the jewelry industry, automobiles, clothing, virtually anything manufactued these days is made in third world economies in order to be competitive. The quality of much of this is dependant on what the origin company specifies. The asian makers will make you whatever you specify and are willing to pay for. They are very happy to work for other companies and will do excellent work if you specify, quality. Having said that, I don't like the fact that this is happening but it won't stop until the asian economies get up to the rest of the world and the standard of living evens out. By then, there won't be many skilled workers left in America or Europe. Its hard to say what will happen economically but until then, if you want domestic workers building your bike frame, you will have to pay for a small volume maufacturer such as Waterford or commission an even smaller custom build company to do the work. But you will pay! Is it worth it, you may ask? I say yes but its a matter of money for many of us.:eek:

So you just reassert the myth, which is just about all anyone does. Has anyone actually been in an Italian shop/factory and witnessed this happening?

Yes, I worked with an Italian builder for 6 years who produced frames for large numbers of other "mythical" manufacturers. I also visited the local paintshops and witnessed the boxes of raw frames, fresh from Taiwan getting painted with "mythical" brand names.

Yes, I worked with an Italian builder for 6 years who produced frames for large numbers of other "mythical" manufacturers. I also visited the local paintshops and witnessed the boxes of raw frames, fresh from Taiwan getting painted with "mythical" brand names.


Ahh! This is what I've been looking for. I believe there is some truth in the 'made in Taiwan' Italian bike frames. As the saying goes 'there's no smoke without fire' and unfortunately I think that we are being lied to. I know that the bikes are still great to ride, handle perfectly and still are made very well, but its just not right. To be told that they are made in Italy by the makers and shop distributers, the buyer really isn't going to question it unless, as I did, they stumble across someone who had worked in the trade for years and has had actual experience of this going on, as 'neilwheel' sounds like he has. Dare I ask which mythical makers were getting their frames made in Taiwan, I'd really like to know?

I agree with Charles Vail, I reckon if you want a domestic bike made now, then you have to go small volume (one man almost) maker.

Also I get a picture in my head of some Italian 'factory' making one or two frames a day, just to keep the pretence up of an aristan craftsman at work, just in case a customer wants a tour of the factory or trading standards pay a visit..

Also if its 'no great secret' then why is it that when you actually ask an Italian frame builder/maker (by e mail) they tell you their frames are made in Italy. Also ask most dealers here in the UK and they will tell you they are made in Italy, (apart from 'some' carbon frames that are from the Far East)....What a shame the myth really is broken..

BTW thanks all you guys for your intelligent and considered answers.

Yes, I worked with an Italian builder for 6 years who produced frames for large numbers of other "mythical" manufacturers. I also visited the local paintshops and witnessed the boxes of raw frames, fresh from Taiwan getting painted with "mythical" brand names.

Well, yes I've heard that some builders have farmed out production within Italy for some time (Billato being one of the well known sources). But since no one here (or in Italy) knows who you are, why don't you name some names on the Taiwan issue? It does seem inherently dishonest to slap a 'Made in Italy' sticker on a frame just because paint has been applied in Italy. And I have nothing against Taiwanese frames - but if I want a Giant I'll go direct to the source. Their paint is likely to be superior as well!

But since no one here (or in Italy) knows who you are, why don't you name some names on the Taiwan issue?
1. Professional etiquette.
2. Those who need to know me, know me.
3. A sticker can be produced in Italy and carry a "Made in Italy" legend.
4. It's not just frames, look at some components out there.
5. The world has changed. The far-east is the worlds' workshop. Unless you can walk into a shop and shake hands with the builder, don't be under any illusions as to where or who built your bike, or microwave, or sneekers, or etc, etc, etc.

1. Professional etiquette.
2. Those who need to know me, know me.
3. A sticker can be produced in Italy and carry a "Made in Italy" legend.
4. It's not just frames, look at some components out there.
5. The world has changed. The far-east is the worlds' workshop. Unless you can walk into a shop and shake hands with the builder, don't be under any illusions as to where or who built your bike, or microwave, or sneekers, or etc, etc, etc.

I'm not sure wether to respect you for your professionalism or call it a cop out. So, I'll take the heat. Check out this link being post in the General Discussion Forum: http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328
It should dispell any conspiracy theories going on. Good luck

Tim

Take a bike, any bike...
Put on a "Made in Italy" sticker and people think, "great ride, old-world mystique, technical perfection." Peel off the sticker and put on a "Made in China" sticker and the same people will say, "horrible, cheap construction, poor welds" etc. etc.

Shouldn't the US distributors be able to tell you, honestly, where these bikes are made?

Or are they part of the great conspiracy also?

And what about the small LBS that has been in business since the 70's, and have developed long standing relationships with manufacturers, builders and distributors.

Are they also part of this great conspiracy?

Shouldn't the US distributors be able to tell you, honestly, where these bikes are made?

Or are they part of the great conspiracy also?

And what about the small LBS that has been in business since the 70's, and have developed long standing relationships with manufacturers, builders and distributors.

Are they also part of this great conspiracy?

Hi

I would say some LBS are just as in the dark about where Italian frames are made as we are. I have a very good retationship with the LBS manager and he knows of one or two frames that are made in the Far East, De Rosa Avant for one, but if he knows about the others, his not letting on...

I found out about the farming out of Italian frames from someone who has been in the trade for years and who used to sell the marque, but has since stopped selling them about 3 years ago as he felt it wasn't right what was going on. He found some evidence of Far Eastern production too....

I'm not sure wether to respect you for your professionalism or call it a cop out.
Tim

It's not a cop out; it's the way things are in the OEM frame business in which I've been involved, in one capacity or another, since 1976. It's called "client confidentiality" and it's what keeps the wheels of the bike industry - and plenty of other similar industries - turning. The question of "who makes what?" has been asked in bike shops, club rooms, bars, magazines, websites, forums etc. for years and will continue to. Inaccuracy and third-hand "knowledge," like the stuff in the link you posted, will ensure that the question will still be asked in a decade from now, only there's a new slant being added; "who owns who?" being thrown into the mix over the last couple of years. That one is going to run and run!

I say embrace the East. Some of these factories are virtually owned by the large importers who have a lot of control.

I'd like to see the majors come right out and say, "Our bikes are made in Asia. Our managers are always onsite there to track the manufacturing process. We work closely with our manufacturers to deliver the highest quality and closest manufacturing tolerances." But no that is not how they do it. The online retailers for example, set up a 1000 bike run for 125K and sell them to us for twice that. That is a lot of selling for 125K in profit. But they dont really say what they are doing. I bet you could piggy-back off of those clients while the jigs are in place and get even a better deal or a smaller run. Anybody speak Chinese?

Doesn’t this all help the few hundred mom and pop domestic frame builders? So much of what you are paying for is the name. But you also usually get what you pay for, no matter where it is made.

Note to the major players-- I'd be pissed if I found out that my bike where made by prison labor.

http://www.manufacturers.com.tw/bicycles/Bicycle-manufacturers-in-China.html

ear all

Thinking about this my new De Rosa alloy frame, doesn't quite have the 'perfect finish' of my other 3 year old one. Also, the bottom bracket wasn't 'prepared' which is unusal on a De Rosa frame and it just doesn't have that made in Italy feel to it as before. Is this me just being paranoid or am I the owner of a new generation of Taiwan made Italian frames? I guess I may never know, unless as slagjumper says and the makers just come out and hold their hands up and tell us where they are made.

I believe it's going to come out sooner or later, because people just don't like being lied to and don't like paying for an Italian designed Taiwanese made bike when they've been lead to believe its 100 per cent Italian....

The auto business was pretty much the same way; people could not tell which cars were being made in US and which weren't. Eventually a law was passed and all cars had to come with a Content Label which indicated where the final assembly was performed, the % of US content, and what other country contributed a significant % of parts. Cleared up the confusion.

Look there is nothing especially wonderfull concerning Italian made bicycles, especially those made in the last 15 years or so. There are plenty of American builders and quite a few Japanese made frames that were better than some of the old school Italian made frames. If you are talking the more recent (in the last 15 years) there isn't anything made thats very exciting to me. Lugged steel frames have been replaced by generic aluminum tig welded monstrocities with no soul!:eek: Or worse yet, epoxy glue and fabric!!!! The truly beautifull bikes made prior to the ninties were the zenith of artfull bicycle building. Thankfully, there are still a few American and European builders left making smartly designed and attractive frames out of lugs and steel. In fact these are better made than they were in days gone by since the tubing and lug quality is so much better. Lets face it, if you purchase any major factory bike these days its probably made in Taiwan or China by some guy making 50 cents and hour and living in a factory dormatory. How can anyone compete with that unless they charge alot more and offer something the others don't. And what could they possibly offer you may ask.........quality!:D

Would the Italian Frame makers been better off establishing the "Italian Made" badge of honor in much the same way that the Swiss "Swiss Made" watch makers did with fine watches?

The Swiss competed head on with the Asian market by making Quality their main defense.

I suppose it's a moot point, but I agree with Starider. If a bike frame says made in Italy, that is where the frame should have been manufactured. If I didn't care where it was made, then I wouldn't mind what the decal says. But if I did buy a bike, because of the Italian heritage, I would be thoughly turned off by the deception.

This has been an very interesting thread.

It's not a cop out; it's the way things are in the OEM frame business in which I've been involved, in one capacity or another, since 1976. It's called "client confidentiality" and it's what keeps the wheels of the bike industry - and plenty of other similar industries - turning. The question of "who makes what?" has been asked in bike shops, club rooms, bars, magazines, websites, forums etc. for years and will continue to. Inaccuracy and third-hand "knowledge," like the stuff in the link you posted, will ensure that the question will still be asked in a decade from now, only there's a new slant being added; "who owns who?" being thrown into the mix over the last couple of years. That one is going to run and run!

neilwheel: if you read the beginning of the story, it clearly states the sources. It is up to the reader to determine their credibility. I for one, trust long standing trade publications. They don't stay in business for a long time by disseminating false or misleading information.

You stated some interesting facts. There were no sources to back up your statements though. You can't go and make claims without citing a source. The claim then becomes pure speculation. If you truly valued "client confidentiality", you would have kept silent. You made a statement and now you're being called on it.

The link posted told who actually made their own bikes and who didn't. I don't see the author being sued by any of the companies listed.


Tim

neilwheel: if you read the beginning of the story, it clearly states the sources. It is up to the reader to determine their credibility. I for one, trust long standing trade publications. They don't stay in business for a long time by disseminating false or misleading information.

You stated some interesting facts. There were no sources to back up your statements though. You can't go and make claims without citing a source. The claim then becomes pure speculation. If you truly valued "client confidentiality", you would have kept silent. You made a statement and now you're being called on it.

The link posted told who actually made their own bikes and who didn't. I don't see the author being sued by any of the companies listed.


Tim

Well said!

Tom

Not sure the 90s are the zenith of lugged bike making either. It all went downstream around the time when MTBs started coming out. There was a huge increase in the industry and better frames and parts became routine, but frames made with fancy plumbing technology lost their appeal.

The bike industry has been a very modern industry model for a long time. Bikes are made up of many sub-assemblies that are not made by the company whose name appears on the tubes. Even before offshoring, and even talking about the frames only, the tubes, paint filer, etc... do not originate with the manufacturer. All they are really responsible for is design and quality control.

That said I do think there is some misdirection involved with some euro companies. I know one in the recumbent field that really goes out of it's way to say they make the frames and they determine the quality by using euro labour. yet it can turn out that the frames are made in Taiwan. I agree that since a lot of the capacity to do work at a decent level is in the East, it might as well be developed as part of the marketing. There are success stories like Surly or Kogswell that turn the fact of their offshoring to an advantage.

Not sure the 90s are the zenith of lugged bike making either. It all went downstream around the time when MTBs started coming out. There was a huge increase in the industry and better frames and parts became routine, but frames made with fancy plumbing technology lost their appeal.

The bike industry has been a very modern industry model for a long time. Bikes are made up of many sub-assemblies that are not made by the company whose name appears on the tubes. Even before offshoring, and even talking about the frames only, the tubes, paint filer, etc... do not originate with the manufacturer. All they are really responsible for is design and quality control.

That said I do think there is some misdirection involved with some euro companies. I know one in the recumbent field that really goes out of it's way to say they make the frames and they determine the quality by using euro labour. yet it can turn out that the frames are made in Taiwan. I agree that since a lot of the capacity to do work at a decent level is in the East, it might as well be developed as part of the marketing. There are success stories like Surly or Kogswell that turn the fact of their offshoring to an advantage.

Actually I said, prior to the ninties! That would be the 60's to 80's for instance! As far as being the zenith of artfull bike making. I beg to differ that frames are routinely better made, since or now. I can't see any benefit to tig-welded aluminum both from a longevity or asthetic point of view not to mention the overblown glue jobs out there. Lugged steel joints remain the best and strongest way to join light guage tubing especially with the advent of newer air hardening tubing. From an economical point of view when it comes to company profits then yes they are routinely better. I'll just about bet most hard use Aluminum frames rairly go over 10,000 miles and I can almost guarantee there won't be many getting restored and ridden regularly like many of the "old school" lugged steel ones out there. My own bikes are both over 25 years old with a bazillion miles on them.:eek:
To me whats being sold now are throw away frames and for many thats no big deal they are inexpensive and serve their purpose quite well and can be recycled so....I guess thats good for many.;)

Lots of generalizations & stereotypes being thrown around here. Here is a recap so far:
1) No such thing as a quality product if the sticker says China
2) steel frames have "soul"
3) aluminum frames are generic and are monstrosities
4) carbon frames are cheap, epoxied plastic, and some glue, therefore inferior
5) All Italian shops/framebuilding factories are high quality
6) All Asian shops are low quality
7) You could ride a bike blindfolded and tell if it has that "Made in Italy" feel

Lots of generalizations & stereotypes being thrown around here. Here is a recap so far:
1) No such thing as a quality product if the sticker says China
2) steel frames have "soul"
3) aluminum frames are generic and are monstrosities
4) carbon frames are cheap, epoxied plastic, and some glue, therefore inferior
5) All Italian shops/framebuilding factories are high quality
6) All Asian shops are low quality
7) You could ride a bike blindfolded and tell if it has that "Made in Italy" feel

Actually:

1. China makes decent stuff if you pay them to.
2. Quality lugged steel frames have soul....yes they do! You must believe! :eek:
3. Most factory, made in Asia, Aluminum frames, all look the same and are very generic.
4. Carbon frames are cheap , epoxied fibers and glue, they are inferior, highly techno, with no soul.
5. There are very few Italian builders still building the old world way.....some were excellent.
6. Most Asain shops make mass produced tigged frames, some are excellent but still generic & welded:(
7. If anyone can ride a bike blindfolded and tell its Italian, I'll eat my old bike shorts...if the moths havn't!
;) ;)

"I beg to differ that frames are routinely better made, since or now."

The average bike in the stores today is far better than the average of a bygone era. A lot of this is related to components or formats that didn't exist before, and isn't really down to frame joining methods. But the frames are better also. The real guts of what makes a better frame is often available for well under 100 dollars, that could be as little as 20 dollars in Taiwan. Nobody seriously maintains that the method those tubes are joined with affects how the bike rides. In the old days a bike that had 3 butted tubes was a better quality product, many rather cheap bikes today have that quality level, and top frame builders often offer no more than that. The better quality of the past is routine today.

I had a pal back in the 70s who had a basic hand made Mariposa with all the best campy on it, it cost 1/3 what Buick Skylark or 4 cylinder Volvo cost @ 3500 can. dollars. The better parts from that time cost number for number about what they do today. So a good derailleur was 45, cranks over 100 etc... So today when cars up here cost 30-50 for something sensible, a really good bike can be had for 2-4K.


"I can't see any benefit to tig-welded aluminum both from a longevity or asthetic point of view not to mention the overblown glue jobs out there."

You can tig weld steel and Ti if you have a material preference that excludes Aluminum. There are advantages to some Tig welded Al structures like recumbents or certain suspension designs. Nobody is currently making fleur de lis lugs for that stuff.

Aesthetics is obviously a subjective issue, and your personal preferences are fine by me. A lot of lug jobs are based on imperial symbols from hundreds of years ago, that's OK, but there are all kinds of other aesthetic choices. Check out some of the TIG threads on the Frame Forum, there are people building bikes with TIG who are every bit as concerned with aesthetics as anyone doing lugs. And the skill level is very high to do the work you see even in some of the Wal-Mart bikes it's not as easy as it looks to vastly over fillet a thin material and get good penetration with zero blowthrough. The aesthetic things concern either minimizing the appearance of the weld so it won't print through the paint, or maybe making really nice beads, or alternatively giving things an industrial look. Right at this point I haven't seen anything overtly decorative done in tig other than where it allows tubes to be placed, but it's possible, if people were into it. It would also be possible to mold the welds out of existence either with brass of bondo but that isn't being done (?) in this field. So far we don't seem to have the understanding out there of what is being done in TIG, so nobody rants about it the way they do with lugs or fillets, and there isn't much pushing it on.

"Lugged steel joints remain the best and strongest way to join light gage tubing"

I really don't see any evidence of that. People keep stating it as though it is true, but where is the actual evidence? As far as I know there isn't a problem with tube sets falling apart when expertly assembled using any of the current preferred methods. The story might be different if the weight of the assembly components was measured. It's hard to see how a large fillet of brass or a lug would come out on top there. If all methods were held to the lowest weight, I would be riding TIG for sure.

"especially with the advent of newer air hardening tubing"

I thought that stuff was being pushed for being better with welding? The "advantage" to methods that use a braze is the lower heat used, though over a much longer period of time. The whole point is to work at heats lower than the trans temp, so why would air hardening be an advantage. TIG hits much higher temps instantly, so a steel that remains hard after that is said to be an advantage. Both stories get more complicated. I don't know which is true, but I am perfectly happy with the fact TIG has a good strength to weight performance with bike tubes, and that most high performance racing bikes etc still made with metals are probably being TIGged. I'm into touring and MTBs, the tubing wars don't really touch me.

"From an economical point of view when it comes to company profits then yes they are routinely better."

Is there any evidence of this? I think if you told the Chinese you wanted nasty cheap bikes with lugs they could oblige. I remember those bikes from my childhood, though they were locally made, and I don't see any advantage over the welded version. I have no idea what the profit margin for hand made high quality bikes is. That has always been a marginal part of the bike industry.

It's my belief that some companies are now much better at making bikes seem new and exciting, and that the constant innovation requires manufacturing flexibility of which welding is a part. I remember reading bike magazines when they were trying to come up with a workable version of a dual suspension bike, and a variety of other components now taken for granted. It seemed like every month there was a radical new product on offer. The bike industry prospered because it was working on something far more elemental than the fancy design carved into a lug. But there is also tons of hype. Serious users of less complicated bikes either need real advances in materials tech, like carbon, or they need good fit and function.

"I'll just about bet most hard use Aluminum frames rairly go over 10,000 miles"

They are either hard use or they aren't. I have never heard there was a problem with quality aluminum frame doing tiny mileage like that. Depends a bit on how many stumps there are along the way. Certainly aluminum bikes are getting a thrashing in the MTB circuit. The do not do well when the tubes get a radial hammering, but then that doesn't do much for the average masterpiece lugged bike either. In any case there are steel TIG frames available to anyone who wants them.

"and I can almost guarantee there won't be many getting restored and ridden regularly like many of the "old school" lugged steel ones out there."

That could well be, but the fact hot-rodders prize old bodies does not mean we have seen little improvement in cars since the 30s. I'm sure I could get excited about old frames too, my current interest is good fit and format, and for that TIG is ideal. I don't want to pre-pay for someone else's vintage find 30 years from now. If they like this stuff so much let them pay for it.

Lots of generalizations & stereotypes being thrown around here. Here is a recap so far:
1) No such thing as a quality product if the sticker says China
2) steel frames have "soul"
3) aluminum frames are generic and are monstrosities
4) carbon frames are cheap, epoxied plastic, and some glue, therefore inferior
5) All Italian shops/framebuilding factories are high quality
6) All Asian shops are low quality
7) You could ride a bike blindfolded and tell if it has that "Made in Italy" feel

Hi Actually you maybe surprised to know that I have nothing against a frame made in Taiwan, infact I tested (over a weekend) a superb Giant Advanced not so long ago and was very impressed. My point is and I'm beginning to tire of saying this, is that if a maker says a frame is made in Italy then it should actually be made in Italy. Not just passed through there from Taiwan, China, where ever on its way to the customer. The end.

"I beg to differ that frames are routinely better made, since or now."

The average bike in the stores today is far better than the average of a bygone era. A lot of this is related to components or formats that didn't exist before, and isn't really down to frame joining methods. But the frames are better also. The real guts of what makes a better frame is often available for well under 100 dollars, that could be as little as 20 dollars in Taiwan. Nobody seriously maintains that the method those tubes are joined with affects how the bike rides. In the old days a bike that had 3 butted tubes was a better quality product, many rather cheap bikes today have that quality level, and top frame builders often offer no more than that. The better quality of the past is routine today.

Better in what way? componenets?...maybe some are. Just because they are lighter weight or have indexed shifting or ten rear cogs, doesn't make them better IMHO! What makes a part good is; durability, quality, precision fit, serviceability by the owner, spare parts availability, ease of adjustability etc. Lets face it bike technology isn't all that different from 30 years ago when it comes to parts. Frames are mostly all tigged and usually aluminium, that doesn't make the average bike better as far as durability or looks.

I had a pal back in the 70s who had a basic hand made Mariposa with all the best campy on it, it cost 1/3 what Buick Skylark or 4 cylinder Volvo cost @ 3500 can. dollars. The better parts from that time cost number for number about what they do today. So a good derailleur was 45, cranks over 100 etc... So today when cars up here cost 30-50 for something sensible, a really good bike can be had for 2-4K.

Unless we are talking a custom frame and top notch parts only I think a fine bike can be had for more like 2K max. If we avoid parts hype and flyweight thinking a good servicable bike can be had with less costly componenents but they will lack advertising fluff. So to many they won't seem good at all. But they are.

"I can't see any benefit to tig-welded aluminum both from a longevity or asthetic point of view not to mention the overblown glue jobs out there."

You can tig weld steel and Ti if you have a material preference that excludes Aluminum. There are advantages to some Tig welded Al structures like recumbents or certain suspension designs. Nobody is currently making fleur de lis lugs for that stuff.

Very true.....but if they were many would buy them just for the looks

Aesthetics is obviously a subjective issue, and your personal preferences are fine by me. A lot of lug jobs are based on imperial symbols from hundreds of years ago, that's OK, but there are all kinds of other aesthetic choices. Check out some of the TIG threads on the Frame Forum, there are people building bikes with TIG who are every bit as concerned with aesthetics as anyone doing lugs. And the skill level is very high to do the work you see even in some of the Wal-Mart bikes it's not as easy as it looks to vastly over fillet a thin material and get good penetration with zero blowthrough. The aesthetic things concern either minimizing the appearance of the weld so it won't print through the paint, or maybe making really nice beads, or alternatively giving things an industrial look. Right at this point I haven't seen anything overtly decorative done in tig other than where it allows tubes to be placed, but it's possible, if people were into it. It would also be possible to mold the welds out of existence either with brass of bondo but that isn't being done (?) in this field. So far we don't seem to have the understanding out there of what is being done in TIG, so nobody rants about it the way they do with lugs or fillets, and there isn't much pushing it on.

Lugged joints are still way more interesting to look at.

"Lugged steel joints remain the best and strongest way to join light gage tubing"

I really don't see any evidence of that. People keep stating it as though it is true, but where is the actual evidence? As far as I know there isn't a problem with tube sets falling apart when expertly assembled using any of the current preferred methods. The story might be different if the weight of the assembly components was measured. It's hard to see how a large fillet of brass or a lug would come out on top there. If all methods were held to the lowest weight, I would be riding TIG for sure.

When steel welded frames crack, its almost always at the weld.....having said that, yes, a well constructed welded steel frame probably won't crack any more than a lugged one..



"especially with the advent of newer air hardening tubing"

I thought that stuff was being pushed for being better with welding? The "advantage" to methods that use a braze is the lower heat used, though over a much longer period of time. The whole point is to work at heats lower than the trans temp, so why would air hardening be an advantage. TIG hits much higher temps instantly, so a steel that remains hard after that is said to be an advantage. Both stories get more complicated. I don't know which is true, but I am perfectly happy with the fact TIG has a good strength to weight performance with bike tubes, and that most high performance racing bikes etc still made with metals are probably being TIGged. I'm into touring and MTBs, the tubing wars don't really touch me.

Air hardening tubing when brazed or silver soldered especially, retain their maximum strength plus you get a joint with more surface area bonding it. Any stresses are spread over a larger area. Does it matter? Not really but lugged joints are still more attractive!

"From an economical point of view when it comes to company profits then yes they are routinely better."

Is there any evidence of this? I think if you told the Chinese you wanted nasty cheap bikes with lugs they could oblige. I remember those bikes from my childhood, though they were locally made, and I don't see any advantage over the welded version. I have no idea what the profit margin for hand made high quality bikes is. That has always been a marginal part of the bike industry.

The evidence is the fact that frames are made by tigging aluminum, if it were cheaper to do it any other way, the big boys concerned about profits and stockholders etc.would be doing it, some other way.

It's my belief that some companies are now much better at making bikes seem new and exciting, and that the constant innovation requires manufacturing flexibility of which welding is a part. I remember reading bike magazines when they were trying to come up with a workable version of a dual suspension bike, and a variety of other components now taken for granted. It seemed like every month there was a radical new product on offer. The bike industry prospered because it was working on something far more elemental than the fancy design carved into a lug. But there is also tons of hype. Serious users of less complicated bikes either need real advances in materials tech, like carbon, or they need good fit and function.

"I'll just about bet most hard use Aluminum frames rairly go over 10,000 miles"

They are either hard use or they aren't. I have never heard there was a problem with quality aluminum frame doing tiny mileage like that. Depends a bit on how many stumps there are along the way. Certainly aluminum bikes are getting a thrashing in the MTB circuit. The do not do well when the tubes get a radial hammering, but then that doesn't do much for the average masterpiece lugged bike either. In any case there are steel TIG frames available to anyone who wants them.

I've read quite often that aluminum frames aren't expected to last over 5 years of hard miles. Maybe that is wrong but I know my steel bikes are still ticking right along after 25 years.

"and I can almost guarantee there won't be many getting restored and ridden regularly like many of the "old school" lugged steel ones out there."

That could well be, but the fact hot-rodders prize old bodies does not mean we have seen little improvement in cars since the 30s. I'm sure I could get excited about old frames too, my current interest is good fit and format, and for that TIG is ideal. I don't want to pre-pay for someone else's vintage find 30 years from now. If they like this stuff so much let them pay for it.

I've got nothing against a tigged steel bike I own several and even aluminum (its o.k. for a few years use IMHO) but I prefer lugged joints for looks and really like the older frames both from an esthetic point of view and a practical point of view because most of frames were built with clearances for wide tires and fenders. These types of frame designs are making a comeback and I think it will bring alot of riders back to using their bikes for more than sunny days and smooth roads. Ultimately the whole disscussion is really kind of pointless since any bike is better than no bike and you really do get alot of bike for the money these days. Probably & precisely because of inexpensive foreign labor..;)

I've got nothing against a tigged steel bike I own several and even aluminum (its o.k. for a few years use IMHO) but I prefer lugged joints for looks and really like the older frames both from an esthetic point of view and a practical point of view because most of frames were built with clearances for wide tires and fenders. These types of frame designs are making a comeback and I think it will bring alot of riders back to using their bikes for more than sunny days and smooth roads. Ultimately the whole disscussion is really kind of pointless since any bike is better than no bike and you really do get alot of bike for the money these days. Probably & precisely because of inexpensive foreign labor..;)


Ummm, just to throw my hat in here for a sec. Your response to Peterpan1's well-written piece is very weak. Your whole argument is pretty weak too. No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.

....Is there any truth in this? If so, then their are an awful lot of people out there being lied to and spending their hard earned cash on something thats not what they think it is, which is just plain wrong! Any thoughts or evidence to this being true would be welcome, Best Regards.


neilwheel: if you read the beginning of the story, it clearly states the sources. It is up to the reader to determine their credibility. I for one, trust long standing trade publications. They don't stay in business for a long time by disseminating false or misleading information. Where?


Magazines, or "long standing trade publications" stay in business through advertising revenue. FACT. Think about it for a moment. If a magazine were to say "that bike in the ad in page 42 was made in the same Chinese factory as the bike in the ad on page 64" they would soon stop generating ad sales. So they tell you its' been "lovingly handcrafted from NASA trickledown technology using proprietary nanafillerment carbon/carrot fiber in a converted goat shed in Tuscany". THAT'S how it works! I know, because I've worked on magazines. (I suppose you'll want a resume.....)

Who said "Wake up and smell the coffee...."????

Where?


Magazines, or "long standing trade publications" stay in business through advertising revenue. FACT. Think about it for a moment. If a magazine were to say "that bike in the ad in page 42 was made in the same Chinese factory as the bike in the ad on page 64" they would soon stop generating ad sales. So they tell you its' been "lovingly handcrafted from NASA trickledown technology using proprietary nanafillerment carbon/carrot fiber in a converted goat shed in Tuscany". THAT'S how it works! I know, because I've worked on magazines. (I suppose you'll want a resume.....)

Who said "Wake up and smell the coffee...."????

Your still not giving us any facts. If you worked for a magazine, then tell us who and give a specific example of what you just said. If you worked in the industry, then tell us who. Give us specific examples of your accusations.

Instead of saying "Wake up and smell the coffee...."???? How about "put up or shut up."

Tim

Ummm, just to throw my hat in here for a sec. Your response to Peterpan1's well-written piece is very weak. Your whole argument is pretty weak too. No big deal though. You are entitled to your opinion.
Well........ol pete didn't give much proof to support his opinions either. Lets face it....tigged aluminum is the prefered choice for the average bike these days because; it is cheap, plentifull, easy on tooling, fast to machine and it generally works if the frame is engineered to maintain a lack of flex so it won't crack.
Of course, this leads to a harsh ride but apparently that fact is overlooked in order to maintain high profits for the manufacturer. Nothing wrong with companies making a profit either and the bikes are not bad quality they just won't last as long.
In addition they are not as interesting to look as a lugged steel frame with lug pin stripes or two tone paint etc. In the classic sense the new stuff to me just doesn't have the it factor.

Back to the op's point about the great conspiracy.....yes I think there has been a cover up in order to sell stuff. Not an unusual tactic in todays competitive market and I don't really blame companies for it. The fact that most stuff is made in Asia is just the way things are today. I will admit though to being dissappointed after spending $1700 on a recumbent that was advertised as being made in the U.S.A. only to find the frame was built in Taiwan. Tigged steel of course but nevertheless, I will make my next purchase of a bike from a U.S.A. builder (probably a Waterford or a Bike Friday) or at least a builder who is honest about where their stuff is made.

This leads me to a point concering air hardened steel.......I read in a recent article as stated by Waterfords company president that air hardened tubing actually makes a stronger and lighter frame when used with lugs and silver solder than bikes with non air hardened tubing from days gone by. Air hardened tubed frames can also be repaired and re-tigged because of the new steels qualities. The fact that they tig some of their stuff also just allows them to be competitive in that market, where they can. I'm not saying tigged steel bike frames are inferior in strength neccessarily, just that they are not as interesting to look at. Aluminum on the other hand is not as good of a choice unless the design is modified which leads to other compromises and still aluminum fatigues quicker.
I've heard it stated that if steel was the newcomer in tubing technology it would be touted as the best frame material to come along since the wheel but...because it is not as cheap to work as aluminum you won't see it as often in the marketplace even though the descriminating buyer often ends up with a high quality steel bike, eventually.
What does this have to do with bike makers misrepresenting their products? I could make a link here but I'm getting tired of writing. Ride what you like or what you have and buy American while you still can, before there isn't anyone left making bicycles in the U.S.A..: ;):eek:

Under the law in the U.S.A., for a bike to be labeled "Made in the USA", the majority of the "build cost", including parts and labor, must be of U.S.A. origin. Therefore, the claims that someone could buy a communist Chinese frame that was painted in China, and components and wheels from Taiwan, and assemble the bike in California and label the bike "Made in the USA" is false.

If the cost of assembling the bike is somewhere in the neighborhood of forty or fifty dollars, and if the importer paid thirty dollars for the frame, and seventy dollars for the components and wheels, the "USA value" of fifty dollars is far exceeded by the imported value of $100. That bike can NOT be labeled "Made in the USA".

I've read the the European Union is even stricter in its rules about the labeling of imported bikes. The European Union's strict labeling rules and "anti-dumping" duties" on communist made bikes means that millions of bikes frames and forks are built each year in Europe.

Reputable European companies are always very clear about the origin of their bikes. Many/most of the Bianchi bikes sold in the USA since 1980 have been made in Japan, Taiwan, or communist China. A Bianchi that was made in Asia is clearly labeled as such.

But, the long-range future for mass production of bikes is certainly in Asia. A communist Chinese factory can produce a 21 speed mountain bike that will sell at Wal-Mart for $79 at a factory cost of under $40. Given the hard to break habit of American workers to eat on a daily basis, you can't buy a pair of American made wheels for $40, let alone a complete bicycle.

However, Cannondale has continued to defy trends. In my neighborhood, probably 20% of the bikes I see with a retail price between $1,500 and $3,000 are Cannondales. Although it may cost Cannondale an extra $100 or $200 to build its frames in the USA and to assemble its bikes in the USA, at the $2,000 price point, Cannondale has been able to pay those additional costs and still sell their bikes for a profit.

"Well........ol pete didn't give much proof to support his opinions either. Lets face it....tigged aluminum is the prefered choice for the average bike these days because; it is cheap, plentifull, easy on tooling, fast to machine"

I depends what average bike you are talking about. If you are comparing Wal-Mart bikes to your preferred (sound choice) of lugged high end bikes, then it might be true, though so far at 9 years of age all the bikes my kids have been in have been steel. If one is talking about bikes for young adults and adults, but cheap, they may well be mostly made of aluminum, but part of the reason is surely aluminum's light weight. There are few bikes for sale in that department store range (at least locally), that are simple frames such as might be sold by Surly. If the market demands highly complex looking double suspension bikes, then aluminum is going to be the material of choice, and that seems to go for bikes costing 2-3K also. If you are talking about neighborhood bike stores, the kinds of places that don't sell cheap bikes, then I'm not sure aluminum predominates, there are a lot of steel bikes there too. It's certain that where these more expensive but not traditional looking bikes exist, TIG is the preferred method of assembly because it is cheaper, but it's an easy call because it is also the best way of assembling these tubes bar none. I'm still willing to bet you can't easily get a (insert big name) lugged airframe certified, hey maybe it will get an Experimental pass, and maybe I'm wrong in any case, but TIG is certainly easily certified.

If you take a standard tube, say 1.125, with .9mm in butt, and .6 walls elsewhere, The butted section is about 25% stronger. So while any weld degrades the joint strength somewhat, so do the other heating processes, it's only significant if the process results in insufficiently strong frames, and I still see no evidence that's the case. It should really be impossible. The issue isn't the method of joinery so long as that is reasonable, it's an engineering issue. Simply put enough meat in the frame where you need it. So long as the weight budget is high enough it's an easily solved problem.

"and it generally works if the frame is engineered to maintain a lack of flex so it won't crack."

Maybe, are we talking about cracking aluminum tubes, or the welds. Either way, there are means of dealing with problem, as you suggest, whether it's tacking on a plate or beefing up component sizes.

"Of course, this leads to a harsh ride but apparently that fact is overlooked in order to maintain high profits for the manufacturer."

Well for the large number of bikes that are using some kind of suspension, whether in the classic sense or even fat tires, do we want the whole bike to be wobbling. What is wrong with an alloy bike that is rigid as light as the dollars allow, and deals with the bumps with a suspension system? At the other end of the spectrum the high dollar bikes are not harsh to ride.

There appears to be this myth that once there were these wonderful steel bikes, and then along came these cheap aluminum ones. But that isn't how I remember it. There was steel which at the time was pretty boring. In the "space age" world all kinds of new materials were being tried in just about everything from shirts to skis. It seemed obvious that new materials would revolutionize frames too. Aluminum frames came along as well as many other materials attempted at the same time. Cannondale got so successful with their bikes that they stopped making tents. Over time many bikes in all price ranges were made of aluminum, now steel is in the minority and sexy again. The thing to remember about TIG is that far from being the low cost way of joining aluminum, it's pretty much the only suitable way since brazing temps melt aluminum, one way or another you are welding.

"Nothing wrong with companies making a profit either and the bikes are not bad quality they just won't last as long."

Well we don't know how long the aluminum bikes will last, it's early days yet. Many last a good long time. The vast majority of steel bikes have been disposed of also. Some of the better lugged bikes are worth keeping so some of those are still with us. Realistically with the rate of change in technology, most bikes are not a long term proposition.

"In addition they are not as interesting to look as a lugged steel frame with lug pin stripes or two tone paint etc."

"interesting" is another thing altogether. TIG is perfectly interesting, it is not the proper medium for expressing the higher points of French royal symbolism in the joints of bikes. What we need is for that guy from Strip Club Choppers to get out some lugs with some edge and some attitude, something for the kids. Lugs are interesting too, one can argue about whether the modern cast lugs are any good, or just more cheapness. What I have learned about the lugged view of life is that melting steel is bad unless you need to TIG together some non-standard lugs, or are selling cast lugs, then melting steel is a good thing. The arguments may be hard to follow but at least they are sincere, and "interesting".

"In the classic sense the new stuff to me just doesn't have the it factor."

Who can argue with that, but somewhere there is a little boy pouring over a bike catalogue for TIGged bikes, and he is not going to get what he wants... 20 years later he will find it in a dumpster, brush it off and fall in love all over again... Well maybe.

"This leads me to a point concerning air hardened steel.......I read in a recent article as stated by Waterfords company president"

Hmm. Obviously they are just trying to maximize their profits like all bike companies, right? The issue is whether the extra strength is material. Steels behave essentially the same until they are pushed beyond the yield point. Greater strength is a "good thing", but it's only useful if there is some reason to believe the original choices were somehow flawed. You know, lugged bikes not workie. At best there may be some superior bikes being made with this method in very light tubing, and then one still has to get around issues like the butts, the heat affected zone, how are all these different zones responding, and how is quality in this amazing torch hand heat treating process being assured, and what kind of testing is being done. There is a broad tendency to say something that is X in property will actually improved the structure it is being introduced to by a similar degree.

"Well........ol pete didn't give much proof to support his opinions either. Lets face it....tigged aluminum is the prefered choice for the average bike these days because; it is cheap, plentifull, easy on tooling, fast to machine"

I depends what average bike you are talking about. If you are comparing Wal-Mart bikes to your preferred (sound choice) of lugged high end bikes, then it might be true, though so far at 9 years of age all the bikes my kids have been in have been steel. If one is talking about bikes for young adults and adults, but cheap, they may well be mostly made of aluminum, but part of the reason is surely aluminum's light weight. There are few bikes for sale in that department store range (at least locally), that are simple frames such as might be sold by Surly. If the market demands highly complex looking double suspension bikes, then aluminum is going to be the material of choice, and that seems to go for bikes costing 2-3K also. If you are talking about neighborhood bike stores, the kinds of places that don't sell cheap bikes, then I'm not sure aluminum predominates, there are a lot of steel bikes there too. It's certain that where these more expensive but not traditional looking bikes exist, TIG is the preferred method of assembly because it is cheaper, but it's an easy call because it is also the best way of assembling these tubes bar none. I'm still willing to bet you can't easily get a (insert big name) lugged airframe certified, hey maybe it will get an Experimental pass, and maybe I'm wrong in any case, but TIG is certainly easily certified.

I'm talking about the common average road or mountain bike sold for adults! Tigged (of course) Aluminum and or all or part carbon fiber and glued. Pick any brand and most are what I am describing. They just don't do it for me.
For some designs as you describe (dual suspension) Aluminum is the only reasonable choice but I don't have to like it!

If you take a standard tube, say 1.125, with .9mm in butt, and .6 walls elsewhere, The butted section is about 25% stronger. So while any weld degrades the joint strength somewhat, so do the other heating processes, it's only significant if the process results in insufficiently strong frames, and I still see no evidence that's the case. It should really be impossible. The issue isn't the method of joinery so long as that is reasonable, it's an engineering issue. Simply put enough meat in the frame where you need it. So long as the weight budget is high enough it's an easily solved problem.

Silver solder won't overheat the tubing but welding will in compairison..

"and it generally works if the frame is engineered to maintain a lack of flex so it won't crack."

Maybe, are we talking about cracking aluminum tubes, or the welds. Either way, there are means of dealing with problem, as you suggest, whether it's tacking on a plate or beefing up component sizes.

Agreed.....and yes its usually the welds but tubes do crack with enough cycles of flexing and in aluminums case its a way shorter cycle than steel.

"Of course, this leads to a harsh ride but apparently that fact is overlooked in order to maintain high profits for the manufacturer."

Well for the large number of bikes that are using some kind of suspension, whether in the classic sense or even fat tires, do we want the whole bike to be wobbling. What is wrong with an alloy bike that is rigid as light as the dollars allow, and deals with the bumps with a suspension system? At the other end of the spectrum the high dollar bikes are not harsh to ride.

The whole bike won't be wobbling......sorry but thats an exaggeration! The lively feel of a well built steel frame has a unique ride quality.

There appears to be this myth that once there were these wonderful steel bikes, and then along came these cheap aluminum ones. But that isn't how I remember it. There was steel which at the time was pretty boring. In the "space age" world all kinds of new materials were being tried in just about everything from shirts to skis. It seemed obvious that new materials would revolutionize frames too. Aluminum frames came along as well as many other materials attempted at the same time. Cannondale got so successful with their bikes that they stopped making tents. Over time many bikes in all price ranges were made of aluminum, now steel is in the minority and sexy again. The thing to remember about TIG is that far from being the low cost way of joining aluminum, it's pretty much the only suitable way since brazing temps melt aluminum, one way or another you are welding.

There were and are wonderfull steel bikes with great ride qualities and interesting appearance. Far from boring, especially these days. When you look at something like a Vanilla Bike or a Rivendell to name two, you can't deny they are much better to look at than the generic aluminum bike even the expensive ones.
Just because steel has been around for over 1000 years doesn't make it a bad choice in the "space age world". In fact the improvements in steel tubing make an even better bike frame than in even fairly recent years.

"Nothing wrong with companies making a profit either and the bikes are not bad quality they just won't last as long."

Well we don't know how long the aluminum bikes will last, it's early days yet. Many last a good long time. The vast majority of steel bikes have been disposed of also. Some of the better lugged bikes are worth keeping so some of those are still with us. Realistically with the rate of change in technology, most bikes are not a long term proposition.

Well there are quite a few bicycles such as my fathers old 1940's Henderson that I can still get parts for not to mention scores of really nice lugged steel bikes made since the 50's or even earlier. The parts technology really hasn't changed much and all that is needed is a simple spreading of the rear frame to fit wider rear axles and drivetrains made today on any steel bike made in the last 60 years. I have three examples on my page that are only 25 years old and still very rideble and serviceable. So I am not so sure that bicycles are such a risk for the long term.

"In addition they are not as interesting to look as a lugged steel frame with lug pin stripes or two tone paint etc."

"interesting" is another thing altogether. TIG is perfectly interesting, it is not the proper medium for expressing the higher points of French royal symbolism in the joints of bikes. What we need is for that guy from Strip Club Choppers to get out some lugs with some edge and some attitude, something for the kids. Lugs are interesting too, one can argue about whether the modern cast lugs are any good, or just more cheapness. What I have learned about the lugged view of life is that melting steel is bad unless you need to TIG together some non-standard lugs, or are selling cast lugs, then melting steel is a good thing. The arguments may be hard to follow but at least they are sincere, and "interesting".

Cast lugs are better for alot of reasons. Closer tolerances, easier to make new designs, easier assembly with tubing etc. I agree about new innovative edgy lugs but sadly its an uphill battle to convince the masses.

"In the classic sense the new stuff to me just doesn't have the it factor."

Who can argue with that, but somewhere there is a little boy pouring over a bike catalogue for TIGged bikes, and he is not going to get what he wants... 20 years later he will find it in a dumpster, brush it off and fall in love all over again... Well maybe.

You never know....history often repeats itself.

"This leads me to a point concerning air hardened steel.......I read in a recent article as stated by Waterfords company president"

Hmm. Obviously they are just trying to maximize their profits like all bike companies, right? The issue is whether the extra strength is material. Steels behave essentially the same until they are pushed beyond the yield point. Greater strength is a "good thing", but it's only useful if there is some reason to believe the original choices were somehow flawed. You know, lugged bikes not workie. At best there may be some superior bikes being made with this method in very light tubing, and then one still has to get around issues like the butts, the heat affected zone, how are all these different zones responding, and how is quality in this amazing torch hand heat treating process being assured, and what kind of testing is being done. There is a broad tendency to say something that is X in property will actually improved the structure it is being introduced to by a similar degree.

Of course Waterford needs profits like any company! When assembled with common brazing methods and especially with silver solder there isn't a grossly affected zone of heat damage and heat treatment is not compromised. Welding can have some of the same problems with bad quality, since it is done by humans also. I guess quality control depends on the manufacturer and their concern for their reputation. Steel unlike titanium for instance has way more latitude when assembled by less than skilled hands. A bonus is the ability for steel to be repaired easily even in remote areas away from high tech welding environments. This feature of course applies only to, off the beaten path, world tourists but it is a real bonus feature worth considering.




Hope this helps clarify my position...to each his own ultimately.;)

My friend got hit by a car on his Pista Concept (aluminum). His headtube cracked in eight places. I've know steel frames to be in multiple car accident's that are still on the road.

Just saying.

Your still not giving us any facts. If you worked for a magazine, then tell us who and give a specific example of what you just said. If you worked in the industry, then tell us who. Give us specific examples of your accusations.

Instead of saying "Wake up and smell the coffee...."???? How about "put up or shut up."

Tim

Why? To satisfy your curiosity?

You don't need specific examples to know that magazines are funded by advertising revenue. All you have to do is open the pages of your favourite mag and count the ad's on page 1 to the last page. Compare the number of ads with the number of features.

Getting it yet?

Ever wondered why a feature will suddenly end on one page and then continue on another page - opposite a great big advert, usually for what you're reading about?

Still not getting it?

Did you get the recent "framebuilding guide" supplement in one magazine that covers pro cycling? Who paid for for that? The magazine - or the brands being featured? Who pays for the bikes that are tested in magazines? The magazines or the bike supplier? Who pays for the advertising in your favourite magazines? Are they placed there as some kind of public information service provided by the publisher?

Magazines not driven by advertising revenue? You seriously need to take off those rose-tinted performance optics!

Nor do you need evidence to prove that OEM framebuilding exists in the marketplace. Just take a look at the number of frame manufacturers in China and Taiwan alone and ask yourself when was the last time you came across an "A-Pro" or a "Great Go" in your local bike shop? Between them, these guys are producing somewhere in the region of 200,000 frames a year. Where do they all go? Sold without decals?

If you just want to ask me "who makes this or who makes that..." then fine, go ahead - but until then,


How about "put up or shut up."

The far east is capable of making very high quality bicycle frames. What sucks is having to pay top dollar for them. The savings from manufacturing overseas is not being passed on to the consumer or the workers.
If you want a handbuilt frame, go visit your local custom builder. You know for sure where that frame is made, and the person who built it probably makes a livable salary and may even have health insurance.

There definitely is a eurocentric superiority complex that's been marketed the hell out in the states.

"far east" is an antiqued term. Makes sense that people still use it since their thinking is so old world.

Well, if you've made it this far through the thread, you may think you missed something somewhere in there and be tempted to re-read it to check your sanity. Please don't subject yourself to the multiple sub-threads and giant blocks of text and interdigitated quotes again. :D

Confusing sub-thread 1:

Starrider: Are Italian frames with "made In Italy" stickers actually made in Italy?

neilwheel: For 100 years, some Italian frames have come from Taiwan. I have seen frames from Taiwan painted in Italy.

Starrider: Bwaa! I knew it. Name names!

neilwheel: Naw, I'm a professional. Plus I'm too cool:"Those who need to know me, know me." [what is THAT?!

cs1: Well I'll be helpful, unlike neilwheel - Here's a
link. [Link has an article written by a guy who owns three bike shops in TN. The article lists many bike companies, gives a little history on each one and states where the frames used to be made and where they are made now. For interesting bonus points, the article even has info on which companies are owned by larger umbrella companies. The article confirms what neilwheel is saying that many Italian companies have frames made in Taiwan. The main reference for the article is right at the beginning of the article, plus all sundry refs are numbered at the end].

neilwheel: I'm not a cop out; it's client confidentiality. Your link is lousy third hand knowledge [even though it supports what I said earlier]

cs1: Man, he just dissed my link, what the... Read the reference, it's a trade publication.

neilwheel: WHERE, I can't see the references even though they are all over the place. Most magazines are unreliable because their advertisers tell them what to write and they have no soul. [They are probably made of aluminum, haw :D ]

cs1: Whatever, tell us something authoritative about Italian frames.

neilwheel: Magazines would lie and tell you something like: "Company X's frames are great! They were developed with trickle-down tech from NASA and certainly not made in Taiwan." [even though the magazine in the link was saying the complete opposite.]

cs1 and readers: ... WTH?!

Confusing sub-thread 2:

Charlesvail: Aluminum bikes have no soul, I like lugs. [plus LOTS of other text]

Peter pan: Sure but modern techniques are used 'cause they're better. [and more text]

Charlesvail: Uhh....I like lugs? [even more text]

Anyhow, hopefully that will help clear up the argument where both of the people are on the same side and slim down the other discussion. I actually DID learn some things in this thread though - thanks to starider for posing the ? and cs1.

The Bicycle Retailer and Industry News is a for profit publication started by the non-profit NBDA, an association of bike dealers, which gets money from dealers in exchange for sales and marketing data and some other stuff. Has anyone read this magazine ever ? neilwheel? Care to deny any statements in the article?

What else I learned: If you want a US made frame - get a Cannondale, Litespeed, Waterford or Bike Friday.

Link has an article written by a guy who owns three bike shops in TN. The article lists many bike companies, gives a little history on each one and states where the frames used to be made and where they are made now. For interesting bonus points, the article even has info on which companies are owned by larger umbrella companies. The article confirms what neilwheel is saying that many Italian companies have frames made in Taiwan. The main reference for the article is right at the beginning of the article, plus all sundry refs are numbered at the end.

The article is full of holes; I said so when it was first linked. The article may have provided sources, but the only sources of "knowledge" referenced are ones that have been in the public domain for years. There's also a bias towards brands stocked by the stores.


The Bicycle Retailer and Industry News is a for profit publication started by the non-profit NBDA, an association of bike dealers, which gets money from dealers in exchange for sales and marketing data and some other stuff. Has anyone read this magazine ever ? neilwheel?

Of course I've heard of BRAIN - it's a TRADE publication! I've been in the trade 35 years, working in the UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Taiwan. In fact, I was featured in a news article in BRAIN a few years back - so yes, I've heard of it. It's not however, a publication aimed at the genral public, i.e. a RETAIL mag, and as such, not reliant on advertiser revenue as the stuff you'll find on your newsstand.


Care to deny any statements in the article?

Deny what statements exactly? Mine? Statements made by others??


What else I learned: If you want a US made frame - get a Cannondale, Litespeed, Waterford or Bike Friday.

DOH! Need to check your facts before making statements like this. Can you spot the odd-one-out? :D

"far east" is an antiqued term. Makes sense that people still use it since their thinking is so old world.

OK, I'm refering to Taiwan.

The article is full of holes; I said so when it was first linked. The article may have provided sources, but the only sources of "knowledge" referenced are ones that have been in the public domain for years. There's also a bias towards brands stocked by the stores.



Of course I've heard of BRAIN - it's a TRADE publication! I've been in the trade 35 years, working in the UK, USA, France, Germany, Italy, Belgium and Taiwan. In fact, I was featured in a news article in BRAIN a few years back - so yes, I've heard of it. It's not however, a publication aimed at the genral public, i.e. a RETAIL mag, and as such, not reliant on advertiser revenue as the stuff you'll find on your newsstand.



Deny what statements exactly? Mine? Statements made by others??



DOH! Need to check your facts before making statements like this. Can you spot the odd-one-out? :D

I think I can.......Litespeed? Besides there are a ton of small American builders that make fine frames, expensive but very much American made frames anyway!:eek:

DOH! Need to check your facts before making statements like this. Can you spot the odd-one-out? :D
Well, you underlined Bike Friday, so I guess that's it, but their website says "All frames are individually cut, welded and brazed by local talent in our Eugene, Oregon, USA factory." Litespeed has a factory in Tennessee but that's all I could find out on their website. Since I haven't been in the industry for 35 years, I guess I'll just have to call em and ask. :)


The article is full of holes.

Deny what statements exactly? Mine? Statements made by others??
Man, if the article is full of holes, fill them in for us. If you disagree with or think the article here:
http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328 is inaccurate, tell us which statements in the article are inaccurate. Even better, you could give us some accurate information, unless that would "blow your cover." Otherwise, you're basically telling us "I know everything that people in this thread want to know, but I won't tell you."

Don't be a big tease. :D

"I'm talking about the common average road or mountain bike sold for adults! Tigged (of course) Aluminum and or all or part carbon fiber and glued. Pick any brand and most are what I am describing. They just don't do it for me.
For some designs as you describe (dual suspension) Aluminum is the only reasonable choice but I don't have to like it!"

I think we are probably closer together as regards what we like than this discussion has allowed so far. My starting point though is that just because I like something doesn't mean the thing I dislike is crap made by tasteless thieves, or whatever the view on TIG is supposed to be. It also doesn't change the reality in just about every other field that TIG produces the superior product.

""If you take a standard tube, say 1.125, with .9mm in butt, and .6 walls elsewhere, The butted section is about 25% stronger. So while any weld degrades the joint strength somewhat, so do the other heating processes, it's only significant if the process results in insufficiently strong frames, and I still see no evidence that's the case. It should really be impossible. The issue isn't the method of joinery so long as that is reasonable, it's an engineering issue. Simply put enough meat in the frame where you need it. So long as the weight budget is high enough it's an easily solved problem.""

"Silver solder won't overheat the tubing but welding will in compairison.."

First, that's wrong, it takes much longer to silver solder than TIG, and the heat effects are dependant in part on time exposure; and the heat required to silver solder is enough to draw a lot of hardness if the tubes are hardened, and if they aren't neither process should overly affect the tube parameters; and the haz zone can be a lot wider from a gas torch and lugs or a pile of bronze, than from a focused arc. Anyway the point is you can weaken the tubes to the extent any of these processes does, since the structure is overbuilt for both lugs and other methods. The key is to push more method specific tubes and dimensions for dominant systems like TIG.

Indeed this seems already to have happened as the lug builders are now reduced to creating the required products for their craft including some new tubes. So however these arguments may have played out in the past, we appear to be in a time when the real concern is the availability of tubes left for the lug market. Should that ever happen good lug tubes with fitting options from 65-350 pounds to accommodate juniors right through to heavily loaded bikes will be gone.

"The whole bike won't be wobbling......sorry but thats an exaggeration! The lively feel of a well built steel frame has a unique ride quality."

I probably worded that badly, my point was that the stiffer the better since that will help transfer the shock loads to the shock absorbers. Stiff trusses connected by energy absorbers. Sounds good to me. So we probably shouldn't blame Al for what is an appropriate goal rather than a bad characteristic. There is some interesting stuff on Bob Brown's site on Al stiffness, if I recall properly.

"There were and are wonderfull steel bikes with great ride qualities and interesting appearance. Far from boring, especially these days. When you look at something like a Vanilla Bike or a Rivendell to name two, you can't deny they are much better to look at than the generic aluminum bike even the expensive ones.
Just because steel has been around for over 1000 years doesn't make it a bad choice in the "space age world". In fact the improvements in steel tubing make an even better bike frame than in even fairly recent years."

Right my point is to re-write aluminum history, I have only had one two wheeler in Al, a Cannondale, but I remember that it had it's time as an exciting material. I think modern buyers who may have been dropped into this photo negative world where aluminum is the big numbers choice and steel boutique or better, should be reminded that aluminum was once very chic and low volume and steel was the do anything material.

As far as Sacha is concerned, if it should turn out that riding steel bikes caused te$tic*lar cancer, and lugs cause ere&tile disfunction he would still be able to turn out cool looking bikes, with carved dropouts, and massive paint, regardless. There are a lot of lugged bikes with great ride that look nothing like his.

"Well there are quite a few bicycles such as my fathers old 1940's Henderson that I can still get parts for not to mention scores of really nice lugged steel bikes made since the 50's or even earlier. The parts technology really hasn't changed much and all that is needed is a simple spreading of the rear frame to fit wider rear axles and drivetrains made today on any steel bike made in the last 60 years. I have three examples on my page that are only 25 years old and still very rideble and serviceable. So I am not so sure that bicycles are such a risk for the long term."

Doubtless. My point is just that an active cyclist, for better or worse, is likely to have himself sold so many different styles of bikes with new features, the majority won't be hanging on to them for long. There are cooler heads that hold to the one bike and it's worth considering that if a person bought less bikes they could afford nicer ones...

"Cast lugs are better for alot of reasons. Closer tolerances"

That's mostly the cheapness issue again. You can make a piece of sheet as tight as you want, it's just hard to do.

"easier to make new designs,"

Maybe. If you want to make millions in Asia, then paying for new presses and formers might cost a few bucks, but it's far cheaper for one-offs to just trim out a piece of sheet, no mold making at all.

"easier assembly with tubing etc."

Why would we care about it being easier, I thought we are about the look. You get to flow the grain in a sheet around the corner get that ultra thin look. I am not against cast lugs at all however.

Mostly what I was fishing for was a realization that casting is melting metal, so where is the difference between casting and welding. Hey they are different, but maybe thinking it through will help people realize we are dealing with a lot of things that are very close together here, and the attempts to drive wedges between different processes is largely artificial. It's likely that lugs were just the easiest way in their day, then they got that aesthetic thing happening, like fuzzy dice, and people don't want to let the look escape, even when the technology has moved on.

"Of course Waterford needs profits like any company! When assembled with common brazing methods and especially with silver solder there isn't a grossly affected zone of heat damage and heat treatment is not compromised."

Most steel frames or the pre-assembled components are not heat treated. And they aren't doing any better after assembly.

There is some interesting stuff on HAZ on Bill Brown's site:

"This data shows... tig joints on both tubing had a higher initial strength and the least drop in the HAZ."

Here is his url:

http://www.bobbrowncycles.com/eng.htm


"Steel unlike titanium for instance has way more latitude when assembled by less than skilled hands. A bonus is the ability for steel to be repaired easily even in remote areas away from high tech welding environments. This feature of course applies only to, off the beaten path, world tourists but it is a real bonus feature worth considering."

I'm all for steel. And I think it does have some reparability advantages. I'm really happy steel is making a comeback because it makes it a lot better for those of us dabbling in frame building at a low cost. It's harder to weld aluminum or Ti, and it would not be much fun to make carbon bikes though there are some advantages like no heat distortion and little need for expensive frame prep tools...

To some extent what is happening in the custom frame market these days is that some of the heat has left the old arguments of lugs vs., brazing vs., TIG. It's probably better for everyone to concentrate on promoting custom, normally steel bikes. Of course, when it comes to securing a sale, people are probably going to pound home some arguments for their joinery choice, but it doesn't seem quite as divisive everywhere else.

Well, you underlined Bike Friday, so I guess that's it, but their website says "All frames are individually cut, welded and brazed by local talent in our Eugene, Oregon, USA factory." Litespeed has a factory in Tennessee but that's all I could find out on their website. Since I haven't been in the industry for 35 years, I guess I'll just have to call em and ask. :)


Man, if the article is full of holes, fill them in for us. If you disagree with or think the article here:
http://allanti.com/page.cfm?PageID=328 is inaccurate, tell us which statements in the article are inaccurate. Even better, you could give us some accurate information, unless that would "blow your cover." Otherwise, you're basically telling us "I know everything that people in this thread want to know, but I won't tell you."

Don't be a big tease. :D

Litespeed isn't Litespeed anymore since the original owner has a new and different business in Tennessee called Lynsky Performance. Truly a custom Titanium frame builder.