"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - What's considered dirty pool in criterium racing?

There's lots of tactics that aren't nice in racing, like attacking a crash, attacking when a break gets caught, but whats really unacceptable?

I would say the only really unacceptable tactic is to purposely hook someone and crash them, eg, wait till they overlap your rear wheel and swerve at them. And possibly, slamming on the brakes so they run up your wheel. But to me, everything else, pinning someone against a curb in a sprint, sitting in on a break when the rest of the group consists of teams with more than one rider, is all fair game.

There's lots of tactics that aren't nice in racing, like attacking a crash, attacking when a break gets caught, but whats really unacceptable?

I would say the only really unacceptable tactic is to purposely hook someone and crash them, eg, wait till they overlap your rear wheel and swerve at them. And possibly, slamming on the brakes so they run up your wheel. But to me, everything else, pinning someone against a curb in a sprint, sitting in on a break when the rest of the group consists of teams with more than one rider, is all fair game.

incorrect.

Sh1t like that deserves a punch in the face.

incorrect.

Sh1t like that deserves a punch in the face.

+1. That's intentional, dangerous stuff, and 99% of us are competing for T-shirts and plastic medals. Not cool.

Here's what I think is "cheap" (though technically not cheating):
- Blocking the entire lane when the yellow line rule is in effect
- Sitting on a wheel for the entire break and taking the sprint.
- throwing bidons
- (this one I'm on the fence about) Blocking another team's pacing effort when you've got rider(s) in the break by disrupting their paceline.

Attacking when the breaks caught: smart racing strategy, not even sure why this would be considered not nice.

Pinning someone to the curb, or closing the door: Dangerous,and against the rules.

Sitting on the entire break, and sprinting for the win: OK strategy if you can pull it off.

Blocking: time honored part of racing strategy. It is a team sport. Now there are ways to block that are safe and not dirty, and some things that get labeled as blocking that are dirty and dangerous.

Is pinning against the rules? Moving over across the road cleanly, not swerving, is illegal?

Is pinning against the rules? Moving over across the road cleanly, not swerving, is illegal?

You're supposed to hold your line in a sprint.

Blocking: time honored part of racing strategy. It is a team sport. Now there are ways to block that are safe and not dirty, and some things that get labeled as blocking that are dirty and dangerous.

I was just watching the '04 TdF the other day and noticed teams getting quite angry (and borderline violent) when teammates of people in the break tried to block. Is this reaction "time honored" as well? Or are they just throwing temper tantrums?

Reaching over and shifting other peoples' gears.

(was much easier in the days of bar end shifters)

Reaching over and shifting other peoples' gears.

(was much easier in the days of bar end shifters)

I'm not a racer but boy would that Piss me right off!

Reaching over and shifting other peoples' gears.

(was much easier in the days of bar end shifters)

lol, I'll still grab a training partner's brake lever if we had committed to an easy spin and he starts half-wheeling me. Never during a race, of course -- just pairs training antics.

pinning someone against a curb ...

Not cool, but boxing in another team's sprinter is just tactics.

Pinning = you're ahead, rider trying to pass you, you move into curb to force him to either hit it or throw on the breaks. Illegal, as you changed your line in the sprint. Unethical, because you forced him to make a decision between his results and his health.

Boxing in = you're even with the rider with another in front of him, and you refuse to move over and let him out of the line for the sprint. Annoying but legit tactics. Can get hairy if he decides to try and push his way out, but then he's the one changing his line and risking being relegated.

It's pretty much common sense. Anything that is dangerous to others - diving corners, squirrelly riding, changing lines in turns - is out.

Attacking when there's a crash, I dont know if it's right or wrong, but it just is, so I dont care either.

Sitting on a break is a legit position to be in under certain circumstances, but telling folks you wont contest the finish and then doing so is bogus.

Mucking up a chase is a legit tactic, as is not contributing to a chase and taking the free ride, if you have a team mate up ahead.

I think blocking is negative racing and usually wont do it, unless it's last lap and it's the difference between a team mate being swallowed up or placing in the BAR points.

what's a bidon?

what's a bidon?

Old European for bottle

There's lots of tactics that aren't nice in racing, like attacking a crash, attacking when a break gets caught, but whats really unacceptable?

I would say the only really unacceptable tactic is to purposely hook someone and crash them, eg, wait till they overlap your rear wheel and swerve at them. And possibly, slamming on the brakes so they run up your wheel. But to me, everything else, pinning someone against a curb in a sprint, sitting in on a break when the rest of the group consists of teams with more than one rider, is all fair game.

What is wrong with attacking when a break gets caught?

I have never heard of that before. You're SUPPOSED to do that. It's called a counter attack.

with the exception of pinning someone in or intentionally putting them at risk all the others sound like race tactics and fair.

Reaching over and shifting other peoples' gears.

(was much easier in the days of bar end shifters)

And if that doesn't work, always carry a frame pump.:rolleyes:

Doping

I guess im not sure what dirty pool means? Other than unsafe riding anything mentioned above is OK. Will sitting in a group then contesting a sprint win me any freinds? No, is it "dirty pool"? No. There are times when this makes a lot of tactical sense (eg. you are unattached, or your team has numbers).

I guess im not sure what dirty pool means?

Here's an example, from an old post:


i was sprinting for what turned out to be 7th place. points are points when you want to upgrade, right?

i was sprinting on the right gutter, and was about to pass a guy on my left. he must have seen me, because he tried closing the door, just as i pulled along.

then the jerk goes all abdoujaparov. he knocks into me, trying to push me off the road. then he checked into me again. then he tried it a third time, but i managed to get past him. as i crossed the line i heard the sound of scraping metal.

a few minutes passed, and then my name was called on the PA, asking me to check in with the judges. i was sh!tt!ng myself, paranoid that they were going to DQ me. turned out they couldn't see my full number on the video and wanted to confirm it was me.

so, i ended up with 7th place and the bozo ended up in the showers washing road rash from his face down to his ass.

it was a good day :D

Yea, intentionally erratic line sprinting, but I guess I would file that under unsafe riding. Not cool anytime or where.

Guess I get the gist now. In a Track sprint it's common to see a rider get a little "squirrely" as you come over them. If they stay under the sprinters line it's not a fowl, is it dirty? If I "fake" a hook to get you to back off in a road sprint is that dirty?

What is wrong with attacking when a break gets caught?

I have never heard of that before. You're SUPPOSED to do that. It's called a counter attack.
it's only wrong if you were that attack that just got caught and none of your team mates are in the attack.


counter attacks are what make attacks work. someone will always chase the first attack and the second and the third. but when it's the seventh or eighth attack everyone will just look at each other and hope someone else will lead the chase 'cause they're trying to recover.

attacking when a break gets caught,



?? That's a great place to attack.

Blocking: time honored part of racing strategy. It is a team sport. Now there are ways to block that are safe and not dirty, and some things that get labeled as blocking that are dirty and dangerous.

True blocking or shutting down the front is bush league and in a decent 1/2 field doesn't go over well at all (and won't work either). Negative racing just plain sucks and proves your guy up the road doesn't have what it takes.

You don't have to work or even ride at the front but don't shut a race down... End rant

True blocking or shutting down the front is bush league and in a decent 1/2 field doesn't go over well at all (and won't work either). Negative racing just plain sucks and proves your guy up the road doesn't have what it takes.

You don't have to work or even ride at the front but don't shut a race down... End rant

Good blocking is subtle. You don't just go to the front and sit up or start weaving back and forth so people can't get by.

You go to the front, take the lead and soft pedal but the whole time make the rest of the pack think you are actually doing work. Start breathing hard and weazing, move your body around a little on the bike so it looks like you are really cranking on the pedals. Make them think you are working when you are not.

Good blocking is subtle. You don't just go to the front and sit up or start weaving back and forth so people can't get by.

You go to the front, take the lead and soft pedal but the whole time make the rest of the pack think you are actually doing work. Start breathing hard and weazing, move your body around a little on the bike so it looks like you are really cranking on the pedals. Make them think you are working when you are not.

Exactly. Blocking (as its supposed to be done) isn't about physically blocking the road. It's about getting up front, then slowly, and slightly easing the effort. Then others have to decide if its worth effort to get up front and push the pace. By working to stay on the front, but not working to drive the pace when you get there, you can effectively slow, and or discourage, the chase effort. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. And other teams then have to decide if they're going to put forth the effort to get you off the front and drive the pace.

You don't even have to be in front. If you have boys up the road, and a chase starts getting organized, hop into the rotation, but don't pull through. Keep doing it, and it will definitely slow down the chase.

Exactly. Blocking (as its supposed to be done) isn't about physically blocking the road. It's about getting up front, then slowly, and slightly easing the effort. Then others have to decide if its worth effort to get up front and push the pace. By working to stay on the front, but not working to drive the pace when you get there, you can effectively slow, and or discourage, the chase effort. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that approach. And other teams then have to decide if they're going to put forth the effort to get you off the front and drive the pace.

This is often misunderstood. Done right it's really about keeping the pace high enough to discourage attacks, yet not as fast as the break. Slowing the pace to 26mph gives you much more control over the field then slowing it to 23.

You won't live to pin me against a curb twice.

You won't live to pin me against a curb twice.

+1 they might not live through the first one. A lot of guys try to pin with just position and don't get any intertia behind it. I've sent several dumbasses back out to the centerline in a big hurry with some solid contact.

I'm no Dial_tone, but I'm bigger than most :)

Pinning = you're ahead, rider trying to pass you, you move into curb to force him to either hit it or throw on the breaks. Illegal, as you changed your line in the sprint. Unethical, because you forced him to make a decision between his results and his health.Depending upon where the rider's trying to pass you.

1. If it's on the straight and you try to shove him into the kerb or bushes, that's not cool.

2. If he's passing you on the outside of the curve, that's perfectly fine.

3. However, someone trying to sneak up in the inside in the middle of a turn's gonna get shut down. It's downright dangerous and can cause a crash. If you're on the inside and you're NOT even elbow-to-elbow with the guy to your outside, he can move over and take out your front wheel when diving into the corner; you gotta back off and get behind him before the pack enters the turn.

If you want to move up on the inside of a curve, then you do it coming out of the corner. Or it can be done coming INTO the corner, but you gotta move up on the straight and get even with the guy next to you BEFORE going into the corner. That gives him time to set up a parallel line outside of you as the guy in front of him moves over in front of you (good way to snake a wheel :)).


As for sprints, the rules state you have to maintain a straight line X-meters from the finish...

+1 they might not live through the first one. A lot of guys try to pin with just position and don't get any intertia behind it. I've sent several dumbasses back out to the centerline in a big hurry with some solid contact.

I'm no Dial_tone, but I'm bigger than most :)
It's one thing doing it in the Pro 1/2's where everybody a) can handle a bike pretty well and b) they probably got their bike pretty cheap. In the 4/5's that same move will probably take out 5 guys and cause bike damage in the thousands of $$....unless you want to be "that guy" don't do it. Few in that category will buy the story that you were just "showing him who's in charge". It will probably be assumed that you just can't hold a line so next time you notice nobody is riding within 3 feet of you you'll know why.

I had to give a guy a quick lesson in Physics at the East Point Velodrome once....he learned quick that if Object A weighing 200 lbs and moving at 34mph comes at Object B at 165 lbs moving at 32mph Object B best get the f*ck outta Object A's way.

This is often misunderstood. Done right it's really about keeping the pace high enough to discourage attacks, yet not as fast as the break. Slowing the pace to 26mph gives you much more control over the field then slowing it to 23.

Must have started at a pretty good clip. I'm only cat 4, but I've never been in a race that averaged over 26mph. I don't doubt you. I just fear the races you're in.

Must have started at a pretty good clip. I'm only cat 4, but I've never been in a race that averaged over 26mph. I don't doubt you. I just fear the races you're in.


He's from Austin... they don't know what a hill is ;)

Nobody has mentioned the infamous Hip Sling.
Made famous by an old 7-Eleven rider (rhymes with Schlitz) who would sling himself to the front of the pack in the last few laps of a crit using the hips of slower riders.
He would just grab you and yank his way past you. Simple as that.

There was a Mercury rider that got busted for it at the Athens Twilight a bunch of years ago.

That's dirty pool.

I like the old trick of stomping on a pop can so it sticks to your heal, and scraping it on the ground to create the awful sound of a crash.

Must have started at a pretty good clip. I'm only cat 4, but I've never been in a race that averaged over 26mph. I don't doubt you. I just fear the races you're in.
I've been in a 28 mph Cat 4 crit in Colorado (Long's Peak crit)

It's one thing doing it in the Pro 1/2's where everybody a) can handle a bike pretty well and b) they probably got their bike pretty cheap. In the 4/5's that same move will probably take out 5 guys and cause bike damage in the thousands of $$....unless you want to be "that guy" don't do it. Few in that category will buy the story that you were just "showing him who's in charge". It will probably be assumed that you just can't hold a line so next time you notice nobody is riding within 3 feet of you you'll know why.

I see what you're saying -- gotta add to safety, not to danger. These were Cat 3 finishes, no crashes caused. No blacklisting in the following races.

I like the old trick of stomping on a pop can so it sticks to your heal, and scraping it on the ground to create the awful sound of a crash.

Priceless :lol:

Attacking when the breaks caught: smart racing strategy, not even sure why this would be considered not nice.

Pinning someone to the curb, or closing the door: Dangerous,and against the rules.

Sitting on the entire break, and sprinting for the win: OK strategy if you can pull it off.

Blocking: time honored part of racing strategy. It is a team sport. Now there are ways to block that are safe and not dirty, and some things that get labeled as blocking that are dirty and dangerous.
+1 attacking when catching a break is a tactic, and a natural consequence to the person in the original break for not choosing the right one.

Pinning and swerving cause accidents. I give elbows to those kinds of moves because that gives me a bumper and lets them know I'm there and not going down without taking them with me.

Sitting on a break is a tactic, although you will usually be dropped because the rest of the break won't have it and they know what you're doing. They will force you out of the draft and/or make a second break to drop you, and 1 solo rider dropped from 3+ in a break means you'll be sucked in by the pack and spit out tired.

Gotta love the intricacies of racing.

There's lots of tactics that aren't nice in racing, like attacking a crash, attacking when a break gets caught, but whats really unacceptable?

I would say the only really unacceptable tactic is to purposely hook someone and crash them, eg, wait till they overlap your rear wheel and swerve at them. And possibly, slamming on the brakes so they run up your wheel. But to me, everything else, pinning someone against a curb in a sprint, sitting in on a break when the rest of the group consists of teams with more than one rider, is all fair game.

In your first paragraph, doing things like that is basically using the misfortune of other's to further your personal gain. People that do that are ones that do not have the skills to win straight up.

In your second paragraph, you guys have jobs or go to school or something that is your real life. If you get seriously injured due to the stupidity of others (or seriously injure someone else due to your stupidity) remember you may be keeping someone from being able to get up and go to work on Monday (and probably not get paid). When you do something like you mention, remember that you could be next.

There's a CAT 3 guy in Indiana that will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair due to paralysis from a racing accident in a sprint. It could have been anyone. In a half of a second, his life changed forever...for an amateur "for fun" bike race.

Most of you are, at best, recreational racers. Keep it real. Don't take this too seriously. Riis is not coming to your "Joe's Industrial Park 45 mintues plus two laps crit" to sign you up to do lead outs for Jens Voigt.

Have fun and be safe first and foremost.

In your first paragraph, doing things like that is basically using the misfortune of other's to further your personal gain. People that do that are ones that do not have the skills to win straight up.

In your second paragraph, you guys have jobs or go to school or something that is your real life. If you get seriously injured due to the stupidity of others (or seriously injure someone else due to your stupidity) remember you may be keeping someone from being able to get up and go to work on Monday (and probably not get paid). When you do something like you mention, remember that you could be next.

There's a CAT 3 guy in Indiana that will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair due to paralysis from a racing accident in a sprint. It could have been anyone. In a half of a second, his life changed forever...for an amateur "for fun" bike race.

Most of you are, at best, recreational racers. Keep it real. Don't take this too seriously. Riis is not coming to your "Joe's Industrial Park 45 mintues plus two laps crit" to sign you up to do lead outs for Jens Voigt.

Have fun and be safe first and foremost.

+ Graham's number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham's_number)

True blocking or shutting down the front is bush league and in a decent 1/2 field doesn't go over well at all (and won't work either).

First, understand that "blocking" is not like you see in football or something. It is merely impeding the peleton by slowing a little during your pulls, slowing a little while cornering, and repeatedly gapping the rider in front of you, forcing riders behind you to have to come around. The more subtle, the better.

You know what really doesn't go over well....?....Explaining to your teammate in a failed break why you helped the peleton chase him down!

I'd rather get yelled at by a frustrated peleton rider, than get yelled at by my coach or teammate.

Why the heck do we need teams for if they aren't going to work together? Blocking is a legitimate tactic that is discussed and recommended in every racing book I've ever read.

Bob

Nobody has mentioned the infamous Hip Sling.
Made famous by an old 7-Eleven rider (rhymes with Schlitz) who would sling himself to the front of the pack in the last few laps of a crit using the hips of slower riders.
He would just grab you and yank his way past you. Simple as that.

There was a Mercury rider that got busted for it at the Athens Twilight a bunch of years ago.

That's dirty pool.

I like the old trick of stomping on a pop can so it sticks to your heal, and scraping it on the ground to create the awful sound of a crash.

So I take it hand slings are out to??? Head butts?

So I take it hand slings are out to??? Head butts?

I once saw a Cat 2 go to the front of the pack, turn around, and announce loudly that he was going to attack. He then pulled the back of his shorts down around his saddle, and pedaled away. Not surprisingly, he got away on that move.

DIRTY pool

There's a CAT 3 guy in Indiana that will spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair due to paralysis from a racing accident in a sprint. It could have been anyone. In a half of a second, his life changed forever...for an amateur "for fun" bike race.
.



I was 20 feet away from that wreck as my race was over and I was at the finish line. That made more than a few guys evaluate their racing career that day.

Ah, the Moon Attack.
Haven't seen that in real life, but the elders of my village tell of a time when a brave lad from across the lake did that.

I once saw a Cat 2 go to the front of the pack, turn around, and announce loudly that he was going to attack. He then pulled the back of his shorts down around his saddle, and pedaled away. Not surprisingly, he got away on that move.

DIRTY pool

What was a Cat 2 guy doing wearing shorts and not bibs? If he did that while wearing bibs then I would be impressed!!! :eek:

You won't live to pin me against a curb twice.


+1 they might not live through the first one. A lot of guys try to pin with just position and don't get any intertia behind it. I've sent several dumbasses back out to the centerline in a big hurry with some solid contact.

I'm no Dial_tone, but I'm bigger than most

http://pr0n.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif

http://pr0n.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/0/00/Internettoughguys.gif


LOL.. no one's tougher that a guy on the internet...the threats are so real.."I'm going to use a negative connotation emoticon on you..." oooo.

DP around here is if you are in break of riders near the finish, and you are asked if you are going to sprint, acting like you're going to collapse, and saying "no", then sprinting for a win is a good way to get you turfed next race.