Has learning VC made cycling in traffic safer for you?

[Helmet Head]

This is only for folks who have read/studied/applied Effective Cycling, Cyclecraft and/or taken EC, LAB or CAN-BIKE courses, and feel they learned vehicular cycling from that effort.


Has learning and applying VC made cycling in traffic safer for you?

[Ed Holland]

I wonder how many people, of those riding on a regular basis (whatever that may be) studied written material or attended courses of any kind? I know I did not, and ride every day.

Ed

[Bekologist]

good question, Ed.

[dynodonn]

The only courses on bicycling that I've ever taken were at the School of Hard Knocks, and I'm still enrolled at this fine academic facility.

[John E]

Most of VC is common sense and vigilance. Its primary benefit is to point out the dangers inherent in curb hugging and other old-school practices.

[sbhikes]

I didn't learn VC from the EC book or a John Forester-approved course but I did learn it from other cyclists. And it did help to learn how to make a proper left turn and be more assertive, but we also would ride on the quieter streets instead of the main ones, and used bike lanes when they were available.

In other words, I was taught some common sense stuff, but not the dogma. You don't have an option for that in your poll.

[chipcom]

I voted "Yes I'm safer" because after reading EC I understand better what content is practical, based on my experience, and what content is hogwash and, at best, a factor dividing the cycling community and, at worst, dangerous to cycling and cyclists.

[genec]

I learned enough through experiece to teach the class I took. While I readily admit that there were students in the class that did improve, frankly the classes taught me very little.

On the other hand, I found Hurst to be a good read and Forester was worst then trying to read a bad tech manual.

[bragi]

Taking a bicycling course is a bit like taking a snow shoeing course: Yes, you could learn something by taking the class, but you could learn as much just by doing it yourself, and about as quickly, since the content is fairly self-evident. Riding a bicyle safely in traffic isn't exactly rocket science. (I'm not trying to disparage vc/ec courses; I merely feel that such courses are unnecessary for most people.)

[fat_bike_nut]

I've learned the "VC" method of cycling from roaming around the internet and finding proponents of it on various pro-utility/commuter cycling websites. It seemed common sense enough to me to the point where I felt that reading Effective Cycling, attending a LAB course, or any other qualification Helmet Head requires in this thread to be, well...superfluous :rolleyes:

Besides, it only took one 3 mile ride to figure it all out, ON MY OWN, with a little bit of assistance from the tips given by said internet websites.

I've only been harassed once (told to get on the sidewalk), and honked at about 4 times (although I must admit that 1 of those times was mostly my own fault...the rest were typical JAM/Cager types). I guess that's a pretty good average when you consider that it happened over the course of about 18 months.

I stay to the right, take the lane if it gets too narrow, signal my turns, stops, etc. What I found on the internet was basically that sort of stuff, and I generally ride a modified version of VC which is basically this: I ride the way the law dictates. I'll make changes to anything that seems too "rigid" if that's what it takes to ensure my safety. Since California vehicle code doesn't seem to have any conflict that I can see with VC principles. Of course, I haven't read EC, nor have I taken a LAB course, nor...well, you know.

With all of that said, yes, it's made me safer, if by safer, you mean it made me feel safer and more confident in negotiating the streets with automotive traffic. Without it, I'd probably still be moseying on the sidewalk or staying on the bike paths around here.

[Helmet Head]

Taking a bicycling course is a bit like taking a snow shoeing course: Yes, you could learn something by taking the class, but you could learn as much just by doing it yourself, and about as quickly, since the content is fairly self-evident. Riding a bicyle safely in traffic isn't exactly rocket science. (I'm not trying to disparage vc/ec courses; I merely feel that such courses are unnecessary for most people.)
Just curious, have you taken such a course?

[Helmet Head]

I learned enough through experiece to teach the class I took. While I readily admit that there were students in the class that did improve, frankly the classes taught me very little.
Some people are just unteachable. :p

[Bekologist]

I read all the books in our local library on cycling when I was a kid-brainiac-

It STILL took me 30 years of riding to figure out the "tickle fingers" worked better than pointing the "finger of clearance."

[bragi]

Just curious, have you taken such a course?

Well, I started to. I wanted to go on a road ride with a local outdoorsy club, and you have to take a bicycle safety course before they'll let you, this being the land of liability, so I went. By the second class, I realized that I knew much more than necessary to pass their test, so I just stopped going.

I don't have a car, and ride my bike virtually everywhere I go, so I have quite a bit of experience riding in traffic. It took me only a few days of riding among cars to figure out the basics of VC, and since then, I haven't had any serious safety problems. I really do think that, for anyone with average intelligence, it's analogous to learning to use use snow shoes: get on the bike and ride.

[chipcom]

I learned enough through experiece to teach the class I took. While I readily admit that there were students in the class that did improve, frankly the classes taught me very little.

On the other hand, I found Hurst to be a good read and Forester was worst then trying to read a bad tech manual.


Gotta agree, Robert's book was not only a much better read, but full of more common-sense, real-world content.

[deputyjones]

Gotta agree, Robert's book was not only a much better read, but full of more common-sense, real-world content.

You guys are referring to this book?:
The Art of Cycling: A Guide to Bicycling in 21st-Century America

It does not exist in my entire regional library system. Kind of sad :(

O well, I will do my part for advocacy today and request the local library buy a copy.

[Brian Ratliff]

It might be under the title: "The art of urban cycling"

The second edition dropped the word "urban" from the title. Mr. Hurst can give more details. Perhaps he could donate a copy to your library ;) ?...

[deputyjones]

It might be under the title: "The art of urban cycling"

The second edition dropped the word "urban" from the title. Mr. Hurst can give more details. Perhaps he could donate a copy to your library ;) ?...

Thanks, but no luck on that one either. I requested the library buy it and a response with their decision. I am happy to have someone (me or the library) pay Mr. Hurst for his time in writing the book especially since so many recommend it, but thanks for the ideas.

[LittleBigMan]

Most of VC is common sense and vigilance. Its primary benefit is to point out the dangers inherent in curb hugging and other old-school practices.
That's how it helped me. When I learned my first job was to take as much lane as I needed as a legitimate user of the road, I discovered I wasn't being squeezed into the gutter. Human hamburger is not on the menu anymore.

Also, I found out that I felt much safer, probably because I didn't have so many scary encounters. Go figure--the main reason I hugged the curb was to protect myself, but I ended up putting myself at greater risk. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy: cycling in traffic is dangerous, so I stay out of the danger by hugging the curb; cars squeeze me, proving cycling is dangerous...

[joejack951]

Thanks, but no luck on that one either. I requested the library buy it and a response with their decision. I am happy to have someone (me or the library) pay Mr. Hurst for his time in writing the book especially since so many recommend it, but thanks for the ideas.

If you have no luck with the library, you can borrow my copy for as long as needed. I thought it was a good read and I might have found it as eye-opening as Effective Cycling if I had read it first.

[fat_bike_nut]

That's how it helped me. When I learned my first job was to take as much lane as I needed as a legitimate user of the road, I discovered I wasn't being squeezed into the gutter. Human hamburger is not on the menu anymore.

Also, I found out that I felt much safer, probably because I didn't have so many scary encounters. Go figure--the main reason I hugged the curb was to protect myself, but I ended up putting myself at greater risk. It's almost like a self-fulfilling prophecy: cycling in traffic is dangerous, so I stay out of the danger by hugging the curb; cars squeeze me, proving cycling is dangerous...

Yep. When I hug the curb, I get buzzed constantly. When I take the lane, I still get buzzed, but a lot less :)

[genec]

Some people are just unteachable. :p

Funny, I have a Bachelors degree that says I somehow managed to learn something. Not to mention that I make a good living by learning how to use complex CAD software tools.

Nope, I think you're barking up the wrong tree here sport.

[Bruce Rosar]

When I take the lane, I still get buzzed, but a lot less :)I get buzzed less too, plus I've got a lot more room in which to slalom around the big pavement defects that infest some of the roads here. :)

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Some people are just unteachable. :p
And some can't teach; or have nothing of value to offer that anyone wants taught to them by a self appointed, self assigned "teacher."

BTW, how many students have you taught as a League Cycling Instructor? Any organization sign you up yet to be their representative for teaching cycling to anybody?

[LittleBigMan]

Some people are just unteachable. :p
I thought he was just kidding.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I thought he was just kidding.
I'm not.

[powerhouse]

I've learned that I'm safer in vehicular cycling through the application of common sense, the thousands of miles and many years of bicycling experience.

[Ed Holland]

I've learned that I'm safer in vehicular cycling through the application of common sense, the thousands of miles and many years of bicycling experience.

This is exactly to the point. Teaching materials, or courses, can inform or demonstrate some best practices, but there is no substitute for miles & years ridden.

As an analogy: Drivers! They need instruction (professional or otherwise) and are required to take a test to show knowledge, application of rules of the road & vehicle control. This does not necessarily make them good or safe drivers (I think this is something we can all agree on :)). Common sense and experience are the only things that can form a good driver - and they must be willing to continue their learning.

Ed

[Helmet Head]

This is exactly to the point. Teaching materials, or courses, can inform or demonstrate some best practices, but there is no substitute for miles & years ridden.

As an analogy: Drivers! They need instruction (professional or otherwise) and are required to take a test to show knowledge, application of rules of the road & vehicle control. This does not necessarily make them good or safe drivers (I think this is something we can all agree on :)). Common sense and experience are the only things that can form a good driver - and they must be willing to continue their learning.

Ed
Almost 40 years of crash-free (*) traffic cycling experience and common sense did not teach me the liberating traffic cycling practices based on the principles of vehicular cycling that I learned within a few shorts weeks of experimenting during and after reading the book.

(*) Not counting crashes as a kid prior to age 12, nor crashes while mountain biking, nor crashes caused by learning a new pedal/clip system.

[Bruce Rosar]

... courses, can inform or demonstrate some best practices, but there is no substitute for miles & years ridden.Courses, in addition to informing and demonstrating, can also provide supervised practice with expert feedback to help each student better understand what they should:

keep doing
stop doing
try doing

As examples, the Road I & II courses in LAB's Bike Ed program (http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/) provide all the above.

[Ed Holland]

Courses, in addition to informing and demonstrating, can also provide supervised practice with expert feedback to help each student better understand what they should:

keep doing
stop doing
try doing

As examples, the Road I & II courses in LAB's Bike Ed program (http://www.bikeleague.org/programs/education/) provide all the above.


That is a very good point. Which brings me to an idea:

How about a "Sticky" thread specifically to share info on courses, who runs them, where and when. It would be so much more use than 100,000 VC threads ;)

Ed

[chipcom]

Almost 40 years of crash-free (*) traffic cycling experience and common sense did not teach me the liberating traffic cycling practices based on the principles of vehicular cycling that I learned within a few shorts weeks of experimenting during and after reading the book.

(*) Not counting crashes as a kid prior to age 12, nor crashes while mountain biking, nor crashes caused by learning a new pedal/clip system.

Interesting, in another thread you stated that you have a total of a 'solid 10 years experience cycling in traffic', yet now it's 40. If you want to fib, at least be consistent...people do read ya know.

[joejack951]

Interesting, in another thread you stated that you have a total of a 'solid 10 years experience cycling in traffic', yet now it's 40. If you want to fib, at least be consistent...people do read ya know.

And hopefully those who are reading are trying to understand what the author was trying to say, or asking politely if they don't understand. I read the same quote by HH where he says he's been riding every year for the past 40 years but not necessarily thousands of miles every year. He made an estimate that if he lumped all of his riding together, it would equal 10 solid years of experience.

[chipcom]

And hopefully those who are reading are trying to understand what the author was trying to say, or asking politely if they don't understand. I read the same quote by HH where he says he's been riding every year for the past 40 years but not necessarily thousands of miles every year. He made an estimate that if he lumped all of his riding together, it would equal 10 solid years of experience.

'cycling in traffic'

[Helmet Head]

And hopefully those who are reading are trying to understand what the author was trying to say, or asking politely if they don't understand. I read the same quote by HH where he says he's been riding every year for the past 40 years but not necessarily thousands of miles every year. He made an estimate that if he lumped all of his riding together, it would equal 10 solid years of experience.
Time to thank your first grade teacher, or whoever it was, for a job well done in teaching you how to read, JoeJack.

[Helmet Head]

That is a very good point. Which brings me to an idea:

How about a "Sticky" thread specifically to share info on courses, who runs them, where and when. It would be so much more use than 100,000 VC threads ;)

Ed

Why reinvent the wheel?

http://www.bikeleague.org

[Ed Holland]

Why reinvent the wheel?

http://www.bikeleague.org

Nice one. But let's add a thread in A&S devoted to "Educational materials, courses and advocacy organisations" That would be useful, even I'd read some of it.

:)

Ed

[chipcom]

Time to thank your first grade teacher, or whoever it was, for a job well done in teaching you how to read, JoeJack.

For the record I have almost 40 years of cycling experience, the first 30 years of which are mixed (some years practically no riding, some years thousands of miles, other years a few hundred or low thousands), and the last 6.5 years have been at least 4,000 per year). Cumulatively, I have well over ten solid years of experience in traffic.

Almost 40 years of crash-free (*) traffic cycling experience and common sense did not teach me the liberating traffic cycling practices based on the principles of vehicular cycling that I learned within a few shorts weeks of experimenting during and after reading the book.

(*) Not counting crashes as a kid prior to age 12, nor crashes while mountain biking, nor crashes caused by learning a new pedal/clip system.

So tell me how 10 turns into 40 or 40 into 10 - new math? :lol:

[joejack951]

So tell me how 10 turns into 40 or 40 into 10 - new math? :lol:

First define a solid year of traffic cycling. We'll call it 3000 miles. Next, times 3000 miles by 10 years to get the number of miles that would equal 10 solid years of traffic cycling. That's 30,000 miles. Now divide those miles up between 40 years however you see fit staying below a maximum of say 5000 miles per year (to avoid putting all 30,000 miles in one year). That's how 40 turns into 10 and I'm sticking to it :)

[chipcom]

First define a solid year of traffic cycling. We'll call it 3000 miles. Next, times 3000 miles by 10 years to get the number of miles that would equal 10 solid years of traffic cycling. That's 30,000 miles. Now divide those miles up between 40 years however you see fit staying below a maximum of say 5000 miles per year (to avoid putting all 30,000 miles in one year). That's how 40 turns into 10 and I'm sticking to it :)

JJ, at least you make me laugh. :D

[joejack951]

JJ, at least you make me laugh. :D

The feeling is mutual ;)

[Bekologist]

Concering cycling in traffic:

how much have you ridden in traffic this week, mr head, versus operating your car like a bike?

just curious, I'm at about 135 miles since Sunday. oh, about 15 of that was a path. so, 120 miles. And I haven't driven since January. How about mr. head?

[John C. Ratliff]

'Just thought I'd say that I decline to vote because there are not enough categories, and those that are there are biased. For instance, there is no category that says "I learned VC techniques, and ended up in the hospital because of it."

John

[Helmet Head]

First define a solid year of traffic cycling. We'll call it 3000 miles. Next, times 3000 miles by 10 years to get the number of miles that would equal 10 solid years of traffic cycling. That's 30,000 miles. Now divide those miles up between 40 years however you see fit staying below a maximum of say 5000 miles per year (to avoid putting all 30,000 miles in one year). That's how 40 turns into 10 and I'm sticking to it :)
Right.

Actually, i was thinking a "solid year" was closer to 5,000 miles of cycling. So over 40 years to accumulate 10 "solid years" of experience, you have to average 1,250/year. I know I have averaged well over that, hence my claim that, "cumulatively, I have well over ten solid years of experience in traffic."

You can also thank your 2nd grade teacher for a job well done teaching you math, JJ.

Chipcom, you might want to send out a few letters of complaint...

[Helmet Head]

'Just thought I'd say that I decline to vote because there are not enough categories, and those that are there are biased. For instance, there is no category that says "I learned VC techniques, and ended up in the hospital because of it."

John
Didn't you end up in the hospital by swerving in front of a passing vehicle without looking back first, or did I not understand what you wrote?

[Bekologist]

how much have you ridden this week, mr head? and be honest, its okay to be honest.

all this bluffing about your 'ten years' or '40 years' is pretty dang misleading.

regardless learning VC, if a spokesperson on riding in traffic using these techniques actually spends more of his road and commuting miles in a car, i personally doubt their "I feel safer riding in traffic" claims.

[Helmet Head]

I'm at about 70 miles so far this week.

[Bekologist]

club miles, or solo?

[Helmet Head]

club miles, or solo? 50 club
20 w/buddy <- but this was brutal steep up/down
0 solo/commute :(

Will add at least 12 solo/commute tomorrow though

[Bekologist]

interesting.....