Advocacy & Safety - Long honk the sequel

Some here may remember my posting of a video of a 17sec honk.

Well I got a 13s honk today. Here is the situation:
A 35mph school zone two same direction lanes w/NOL. 11:40am, traffic relatively light. First mile down this road all drivers as usual had no problem seeing me well in advance and merging a hundred feet or more before me into adjacent lane to pass.

Then a JAM enters the scene. Doesn't merge. Comes up behind me and tailgates and begins honking (note in video the honk starts just as passing the "End School Zone" sign) SL is now 40mph. I am traveling at 25-26mph. I give slow signal, I look back, etc.

Road widens a bit just after the side street, here I often merge right to allow lane sharing for careful drivers passing (it is still narrower than a 14' WOL) I would have merge right far sooner if motorist had treated me with respect. But how can I trust a motorist to safely share lane if they treat me so poorly?

Then the fun begins, the JAM passes and slows to 20mph, then 15. I follow and holler a bit at them. They holler to get of the road or some such nonesense. They speed up and just clear a light before it turns red (maybe they didn't want to 'discuss' the issue with me ;) )

youtube Q1PWNBaRN1M - Long Honk Two (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1PWNBaRN1M)

A few applicable quotes from a different thread:

Motorist vigilantism is wrong no matter whether you are in the wrong or in the right.

Why is it up to the BICYCLIST to "challenge" drivers' misunderstandings? Why can't SOCIETY reeducate drivers about cyclists' rights to the road as well. Like Al mentions, any upset driver makes it 'all about them' anyway, a cyclist 'in the way' is going to be 'in the way' regardless of any conversation you can have with them.

States, municipalities, bike advocacy groups, cities could by and large do a MUCH better job at educating drivers 'en masse' that bikes are allowed to use the full lane, etc...


Al

grrrrrr....Arizone plate CRZ60? That driver is in need of some adjustment.

grrrrrr....Arizone plate CRZ60? That driver is in need of some adjustment.
I want to call it in, but last time I did for the 17s honk the officer told me that since 'nothing' happened they couldn't do anything.
The video evidence doesn't quite fall under legal definition of agressive driving does it?
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00695.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS

Al

I don't think it would. My response to this would fall under the category of a "creative enforcement solution". He did break the law of using his sounding device when no apparent emergency presented itself. In MI I would use something like that anyway. I think I could also articulate that he was guilty of "careless driving".


A person who operates a vehicle upon a highway or a frozen public lake, stream, or pond or other place open to the general public including an area designated for the parking of vehicles in a careless (http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(4xloj255tviuwa45cot5u4jj))/mileg.aspx?page=getobject&objectname=mcl-257-626b&queryid=17005964&highlight=careless#top) or negligent manner likely to endanger any person or property, but without wantonness or recklessness, is responsible for a civil infraction.

In Alberta, the argument would be if the 13s was reasonable or not.


RSA 1980 cH-7 s44
Other Equipment
Horn, etc.
45(1) Every motor vehicle, motor cycle, moped, power bicycle
and bicycle shall be equipped with an adequate horn, gong or bell
and it shall be kept in good working order and shall be sounded
whenever it is reasonably necessary to warn persons on or
approaching the highway in the vicinity of the vehicle or motor
cycle, moped, power bicycle or bicycle.
(2) No person having the control of a motor vehicle, motor cycle,
moped, power bicycle or bicycle shall use the horn, gong, bell or
other signalling device on it except for the purpose of giving notice
to persons on or approaching the highway in the vicinity of the
motor vehicle, motor cycle, moped, power bicycle or bicycle of the
approach of the vehicle, and in so doing shall not make any more
noise than is reasonably necessary for the purpose of giving the
warning.

All I can hear is road and wind noise... no honking (but I believe you!)

All I can hear is road and wind noise... no honking (but I believe you!)
It starts a bit later into the video. Can you see the "End School Zone" sign? One can't read it in the video, but one can recognize it. The honking starts there. I can hear it (perhaps faintly) over the wind/road noise.
Al

ok, I heard it this time. It is pretty faint.

Right before the JAM appears, it looks like you swerve right a bit... is that due to a close pass from him?

ok, I heard it this time. It is pretty faint.

Right before the JAM appears, it looks like you swerve right a bit... is that due to a close pass from him?
Thats right. I watch in mirror and when they started a pass I moved right to ensure good passing clearance. I may have had it without, but since I can give more room, why not? Thats one reason not to curb hug.

(I don't know why it was faint, other times I've captured honks from directly behind me they were louder and this vehicle was just as close, maybe the road/wind noise was just louder this time)

Al

Al, all I hear is noise and you yelling 'you have a problem.....'

You need a better line like 'F*** off D*** head'...works for me.

You need a better line like 'F*** off D*** head'...works for me.
Believe me I know. I always think of better things to say after. Brain isn't good at verbal communication while riding. ;)
Al

Road widens a bit just after the side street, here I often merge right to allow lane sharing for careful drivers passing (it is still narrower than a 14' WOL)
Here is an example in the exact same location of me merging right where the lane widens a bit to help let motorist pass. In this case the motorist choose not to pass, but gave a honk. Then they passed and while doing so flipped me off. Thats how I know the honk was one of annoyance vs. a friendly one to let me know they were going to pass.

youtube TrH2HSHKB-Y - Merge right, apparently not enough, honk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrH2HSHKB-Y)

Al

Motorist vigilantism. Still wrong. Although, in some way, you did a little bit of street justice yourself by not pulling over sooner just because he wasn't polite to you. But I don't blame you one bit.

Motorist vigilantism. Still wrong. Although, in some way, you did a little bit of street justice yourself by not pulling over sooner just because he wasn't polite to you. But I don't blame you one bit.
So in that brief moment was I taking the lane for political vs. practial reasons? ;)

(My answer is no as moving too far right would put me at risk given the anti-cyclist and aggressive (extended honkin) behavior first shown by the motorist it would be risky to assume they would give safe passing clearance, hence leaving a bit of evasion room was the safe thing to do and in fact I used it when they started to overtake. Also see the 2nd video I posted where I clearly and firmly move right when the lane widened to encourage lane sharing and was willing to tollerate a close pass, even then the motorist choose not to pass and honked instead - the point being that that motorist still considered unsafe to pass. The only way a motorist can safely pass on this road is if they merge at least partly into the adjacent lane.)

Al

Proof narrow lanes do not consistently provide the illusions of cyclists' parity with other vehicles.

what a jerk that guy was...

nice wide sidewalk to your right. Nobody on it. just sayin'.:p

Proof narrow lanes do not consistently provide the illusions of cyclists' parity with other vehicles.
Sure, but was anyone looking for this proof? Does anyone think otherwise? (although there was parity in the sense that I could command full use of lane just as motorists do, also if I had a horn I could have treated the driver just as he did to me after he slowed ;) )

More so its proof that there are folks who have graduated with honors from D*** head school.

The city long term plans include adding a BL to this road, targeted for 2030 (I guess they have to add them and traffic calming to 25mph residential streets first ;) ). A WOL or an additional unrestricted use lane would work for me (with same traffic volumes)

After the first time I got an extended honk on this road I asked the city cycling rep. if a 'share the road' sign could be put here. There were some left in storage and one was placed about 1mi back from where this occured. Unfortunately its the type of STR sign that shows a cyclist riding in the gutter being passed with about 1' of clearance, so it could hurt more than help.

Al

nice wide sidewalk to your right. Nobody on it. just sayin'.
Ummm, what about the vehicles entering from the side street at about 0:20 and again 1:10?

By the way you sound (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/070223-PMrideonsidealk.mp3)more like the jerk motorists I occasionally encounter here vs. a cycling advocate, no personal offense as I know you are not a jerk.

Al

:eek: sidewalks have their own set of problems, I know. I avoid confrontations like these by not riding on these types of streets. good for you for trying to do the right thing.

Ummm, what about the vehicles entering from the side street at about 0:20 and again 1:10?

By the way you sound (http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/070223-PMrideonsidealk.mp3)more like the jerk motorists I occasionally encounter here vs. a cycling advocate, no personal offense as I know you are not a jerk.

Al

I found his statement curious as well. Perhaps he was just kidding.

edit: oops, already explained.

So in that brief moment was I taking the lane for political vs. practial reasons? ;)

Al

I don't know what you were doing, but this is what you said you were doing:

I would have merge right far sooner if motorist had treated me with respect.

Sounds like a tad of street justice to me. Just a tad, though.

It starts a bit later into the video. Can you see the "End School Zone" sign? One can't read it in the video, but one can recognize it. The honking starts there. I can hear it (perhaps faintly) over the wind/road noise.
Al

Try to recall that HH has trained himself to ignore honking... therefore he may find it difficult to hear a motorist "aggressively" honking.

Of course some may not consider 13 seconds to be an aggressive honk. :rolleyes:

sidewalks have their own set of problems, I know. I avoid confrontations like these by not riding on these types of streets. good for you for trying to do the right thing.

Of course you assume that other streets are available. Often they are NOT.

Where is that camera mounted? And do you have a campy hub, because that cassette body is LOUD.

Here is one of those sidewalk riders .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zoOBqsJzQ

I guess he got a bit of sidewalk justice.

I am moving to Tempe. Hopefully I won't be showing up in NBs tube of him dropping me.

Rando 25mph on a sidewalk wow. I will say those wide sidewalks are great for rollerblades.

Of course you assume that other streets are available. Often they are NOT.

yep. I should've said LUCKILY I can use other streets... I know many can't.

Here is one of those sidewalk riders .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zoOBqsJzQ

I guess he got a bit of sidewalk justice.

I am moving to Tempe. Hopefully I won't be showing up in NBs tube of him dropping me.

Rando 25mph on a sidewalk wow. I will say those wide sidewalks are great for rollerblades.

????

Dude, I can't go 25 mph ANYWHERE! :D

Where is that camera mounted? And do you have a campy hub, because that cassette body is LOUD.

Camera is mounted to handlebars. Hub is a Surly fixed. Ha ha.
I think the noise is a combination of road and wind, but also perhaps some rattling inside the camera- if I shake it there is a faint 'tic' sound - perhaps it gets going good with road vibration and the rattle gets transfered directly to microphone.

Al

????

Dude, I can't go 25 mph ANYWHERE!


Well don't take offense just NB posted his speed and then you suggest the sidewalk. From what I can tell.

Well don't take offense just NB posted his speed and then you suggest the sidewalk. From what I can tell.

no offense taken. shoulda used a smiley.:)

wheel, you have some great pics on your blog. I was checking them out this morning.

sidewalks have their own set of problems, I know. I avoid confrontations like these by not riding on these types of streets. good for you for trying to do the right thing.
Genec is right, there is not another street that is any different available. I live off this street. There is another backway to my house, but it involves several left turns across multilane roads and usage of a kid-busy MUP - and it only cuts down on ~1/2mi of narrow lane, so there is no net gain.

More importantly I don't mind at all riding on this street, I find it enjoyable for the most part. I actualy started smiling to myself when the guy started honking - the kind of 'shaking my head what an idiot type of smiling'

Then when he slowed in front of me I became cautious, not knowing what other stunt he could pull, like suddenly hitting the brakes. Or maybe a full stop and a confrontation (I was eyeing for witnesses too)

Al

...NB posted his speed and then you suggest the sidewalk.
I don't have to go 25. Of course if I used the sidewalk I'd keep to a much lower speed, but even at 10-15mph there would be more hazards than at 25 on the street.

I've also traveled down this very road at 15mph when I was tired and had a significant headwind.

I really shouldn't have posted the speed, but thought it was somewhat relevant as a vehicle going 25mph is easier to pass (less decel and accel) than a slower one.

Al

Noisebeam,

Obviously you having a camera, if it was noticed by the motorist you post about in this thread or the previous one, did not have an impact on how the motorist behaved or controlled their vehicle when they passed you.

But have you noticed a differance in how motorists behave when they notice you have a camera?

I ask because I will be using a helmet mounted video cam. starting this year. Because I ride a recumbent it probably will be more noticable & I'm wondering if it will cause motorists to behave better behind the wheel or like even more of a jackass because they know they are on camera.

But have you noticed a differance in how motorists behave when they notice you have a camera?
I very much doubt any motorist has noticed the camera. It is on the handlebars and is about the size of an electric shaver. Probably looks more like a headlight than anything else. A driver approaching from the rear wouldn't be able to see it anyway. Even if on helmet, I'd be surprised if they noticed or thought it was a camera vs. 'some stupid cycling accessory'

Al

Noisebeam,

Obviously you having a camera, if it was noticed by the motorist you post about in this thread or the previous one, did not have an impact on how the motorist behaved or controlled their vehicle when they passed you.

But have you noticed a differance in how motorists behave when they notice you have a camera?

I ask because I will be using a helmet mounted video cam. starting this year. Because I ride a recumbent it probably will be more noticable & I'm wondering if it will cause motorists to behave better behind the wheel or like even more of a jackass because they know they are on camera.

With a 20-25mph speed differential, I can't imagine a motorist being able to notice anything mounted on the handlebars let alone figure out that it is a camera. Basically, if you think the camera will make motorists "respect" your presence any more, you're in for a big letdown. They'll probably assume it's a headlight on your helmet if anything. Maybe an antenna too :)

With a 20-25mph speed differential, I can't imagine a motorist being able to notice anything mounted on the handlebars let alone figure out that it is a camera. Basically, if you think the camera will make motorists "respect" your presence any more, you're in for a big letdown. They'll probably assume it's a headlight on your helmet if anything. Maybe an antenna too :)

That may be, but when I'm at a stop light on a 4 lane, 2 lanes in each direction, roadway the motorist next to me may ask what it is. When I answer it is a camera he or she may behave differantly. I'm not holding my breath though. Knowing the motorists in my area, those that ask may object to being filmed because they may feel it violates their right to privacy. The thing is though on a public roadway that doesn't apply. I also expect to get the morons & clowns who will purposly flip the bird at the camera.

That may be, but when I'm at a stop light on a 4 lane, 2 lanes in each direction, roadway the motorist next to me may ask what it is. When I answer it is a camera he or she may behave differantly.
Maybe they will behave differently in the future in the presence of other cyclists. But at that moment if they are in an adjacent lane any change in behavior is very unlikely to affect you.

The only motorist I can imagine asking me what it is will be another cyclist who is probably already a safe driver around cyclists.

If you want to get an effect (and what it may be, positive or negative, I can't say) I'd say the only way to do it would to put up a sign on your back indicating you are videotaping.

The only thing videocapture (with this type of camera) is good for is for bike forum discussion fodder. It won't help with accident documentation, it won't change motorisit behavior, its not clear enough to get plate numbers (unless motorist slows in front of you ;) ) it won't make you a better cyclist and it shows too narrow a field to help one analyze ones own behavior. It's a toy, thats it.

Al

Maybe they will behave differently in the future in the presence of other cyclists. But at that moment if they are in an adjacent lane any change in behavior is very unlikely to affect you.

The only motorist I can imagine asking me what it is will be another cyclist who is probably already a safe driver around cyclists.

If you want to get an effect (and what it may be, positive or negative, I can't say) I'd say the only way to do it would to put up a sign on your back indicating you are videotaping.

The only thing videocapture (with this type of camera) is good for is for bike forum discussion fodder. It won't help with accident documentation, it won't change motorisit behavior, its not clear enough to get plate numbers (unless motorist slows in front of you ;) ) it won't make you a better cyclist and it shows too narrow a field to help one analyze ones own behavior. It's a toy, thats it.

Al

Agreed it's a toy. I also have a camera that takes photos as well, on the handle bars. It could be good for documenting accidents, have not used it for that yet, but it is good for photographing plate numebrs, but only up to a certain distance.

As far as a sign is concerned I am thinking about building a new tailbox for my 'bent out of corroplast material & may indicate on it I am photographing & video taping.

no offense taken. shoulda used a smiley.:)

wheel, you have some great pics on your blog. I was checking them out this morning.

Yea it was just a thought like my video. Imagining a guy going 25mph down a sidewalk. Wow

Thanks for the comment :D one nice thing about taking it slow.

Yea I got my toy for x-mas. It helps for journal entries and yelling information I need into the microphone.

What kind of camera?

Have a link?

What kind of camera?

Have a link?
Its an Oregon Scientific ATC-1000. OS has a new model out since I bought this one.
Al

I tried mounting a rearward-facing camera during the last warm spell, and got nothing but sky and passing streetlights.

I'll try again with a different mounting strategy as soon as it gets warm enough for the batteries.

I actualy started smiling to myself when the guy started honking - the kind of 'shaking my head what an idiot type of smiling'


Al

Yeah, I do the inside chuckle too... and put another mark on the "idiot cager" column.

I got honked and buzzed at by a person with two bicycles on the back of the car WOW.
I was taking the lane on Mill ave. Going through the intersection at broadway and passing a bus in a bus pullout.
There is a small shoulder on this road.

Note on this road away from intersections. I ride just left of the white stripe and my friend was semi abreast on the other side of the stripe in the shoulder. I normally ride to the left of the stripe when alone.

I also saw an accident a while before this.

it's kinda scary to me going under that train overpass just N of Broadway..... you don't know if they see you or not.:eek:

Last week. I had a pickup stay behind me for longer than necessary, and them pass and intentionally slow down. Before he knew it, I had accellerated past him again. (Do drivers not understand that our slow-speed accelleration is often faster than theirs?)

He kept yelling. I kept smiling and waving.

When I have a car behing me that won't pass, I prefer not the think of it as a JAM. I prefer to think of it as a blocking back. What miniscule chance I have of being rear ended is even more miniscule. Hence, the smile and wave.

nice wide sidewalk to your right. Nobody on it. just sayin'.:p

WTF are you exactly saying? It's a freakin sideWALK.

noisebeam - what kind of camera are you using?

I spoke recently with a bicycle accident lawyer, and he said that you might be able to make a decent living by riding with a camera like that (perhaps with 2, facing back and front).

He said if you've got good evidence, it's not that hard to sue irate/road rager motorists. In fact, he had successfully sued a JAM for around $20,000 just recently.

Might be an interesting way to supplement one's income (though I'm not sure how it would work out karma-wise).

nice wide sidewalk to your right. Nobody on it. just sayin'.:p

Just sayin' nonsense....just sayin'. :rolleyes:

it's kinda scary to me going under that train overpass just N of Broadway..... you don't know if they see you or not.:eek:
+1

That and the shoulder is horrible.