Disturbing

[ellenDSD]

I attended our bike club's monthly meeting last night and I heard something I found to be quite disturbing. A high school in a neighboring city removed their bike racks. They did it because they 1) did not want to promote/encourage biking to school because it's just too dangerous and 2) because they didn't want to be held liable should someone have an accident (since they were obviously encouraging biking by providing bike racks).

So what's next? A ban on riding your bike to the supermarket because they don't want to be held liable? Is anyone else bothered by this? Is it possible that our biking lifestyle is being threatened to the point that biking will be not feasible anymore?

:eek:

(Yes, I am aware of my tendency towards jumping to the worst possible conclusion.)

[chickPEA]

Is the school held liable if one of the students who DRIVES to school had an accident? I doubt it... That logic is just amazing...

[jdeane4]

I was cited by the Local Mall Security for riding my bike on mall property. The funny thing is I was riding to work, which is in the mall. I appealed it to the head of their security department and now they will strictly allow me to ride to work only. This country is becoming so stupid. Its all BS.

[GGDub]

After one kid and one chaperone were swept away by a rogue wave in N. California 7 years ago, the amount of hoops my wife has to jump through just to take her dance class to a show in the evening is unbelievable. North American society has become one that makes decisions based on fear and liability and not on common sense. Just perusing the numerous helmet threads on this site is a good example. At some point in the last 20 years, the bicycle has become an extremely dangerous machine. I blame CNN and Mountain Dew commercials.

ps-sorry my reply is kinda all over the place

[LandLuger]

GGDub is correct. We should hold our ire for the trial lawyers not the school officials.

[dynodonn]

I ride by my highschool on a weekly basis, and they still have the same bike racks when I was going there. :eek: There's probably the same number of bikes using it as when I was a student there, but there are more cars parked at the school and and far more empty seats on the buses.

[austropithicus]

GGDub is correct. We should hold our ire for the trial lawyers not the school officials.

GGDub said that "North American society has become one that makes decisions based on fear and liability and not on common sense." He's right but you've got to realize that the lawyers aren't the ones MAKING the decisions based on fear and liability. The school officials are the scared decision makers.

[Platy]

Maybe there really is no safe way to walk or bike to some schoools.

There's really not much that can be done when anti-bike forces take over in a community. That's when you have to evaluate your choice of which community to live in.

[kjohnnytarr]

Unacceptable. Pardon my crudeness, but the bigger perspective on the problem as I see it is this:

If we treat our kids like wusses and idiots, that's what they will grow up to become.

It's amazing how many parents, teachers, etc. treat kids as if they were incapable and stupid. I say, with conviction, that the best way to raise a child is to thrust responsibility upon them, and then hold them accountable for their actions.

[gwd]

A high school in a neighboring city removed their bike racks. They did it because they 1) did not want to promote/encourage biking to school because it's just too dangerous and 2) because they didn't want to be held liable should someone have an accident (since they were obviously encouraging biking by providing bike racks).


The city just replaced a middle/high school complex in my neighborhood last year. They installed bike racks in the new complex where the old one had none. The pk-8 charter school across the street installed bike racks when they had their makeover two years ago. The charter school needs a few more bike spaces. Some mornings between the kids who ride and the parents who pack the very young ones all the spaces get filled.

[ModoVincere]

Unacceptable. Pardon my crudeness, but the bigger perspective on the problem as I see it is this:

If we treat our kids like wusses and idiots, that's what they will grow up to become.



Too late, in many cases its already happened. Just my opinion.

[jamesdenver]

This also has to do with the overprivatization of the country. (One of my interests). If a mall/lifestyle center or whatever encompasses such a large swath of land it's impractical to circumvent it (i.e. drains channels, private streets, non-ped friendly design), than that's something that should be addressed.

Keep riding your bike as you see fit. It's not the pentagon.

[Roody]

I was cited by the Local Mall Security for riding my bike on mall property. The funny thing is I was riding to work, which is in the mall. I appealed it to the head of their security department and now they will strictly allow me to ride to work only. This country is becoming so stupid. Its all BS.
I'm glad that you fought this and especially glad that you won (sorta). Good going! :)

I wonder if anybody has ever tried to get help from local bicycle advocacy groups. There's strength in numbers.

[Roody]

This also has to do with the overprivatization of the country. (One of my interests). If a mall/lifestyle center or whatever encompasses such a large swath of land it's impractical to circumvent it (i.e. drains channels, private streets, non-ped friendly design), than that's something that should be addressed.

Keep riding your bike as you see fit. It's not the pentagon.
I agree. It's crazy that we've allowed our main commercial districts (that is, malls) to become privately owned. Then we taxpayers subsidize them with tax breaks, free or at least below-cost infrastructure, and exemptions from local and state laws, especially pollution laws.

And "lifestyle center"! What the hell is that? Who do they think they're fooling? Shopping is a lifestyle? Zheeesh....

[I-Like-To-Bike]

I attended our bike club's monthly meeting last night and I heard something I found to be quite disturbing...(Yes, I am aware of my tendency towards jumping to the worst possible conclusion.)
Did you ever find out if what you "heard" is correct about the reason for the removal of the school bike racks? Hint: what you "hear" isn't always true.

[Roody]

Did you ever find out if what you "heard" is correct about the reason for the removal of the school bike racks? Hint: what you "hear" isn't always true.
Wrong. What you hear on the Internet is always true. ;)

[jamesdenver]

I have no problem ignoring stupid rules and laws. I understand the reason for such rules is insurance and liability issues in case you're hurt cruising through a parking lot, but plenty of people are hurt walking in parking lots too.

I go by the rule "better to ask forgiveness than permission". Last year I cut through the lobby of a skyscraper downtown to get to the other street, rather than walking around. I generally walk fast and with a sense of purpose, so it's obvious I'm not loitering. I get yelled at by security that "I can't come in without blah blah", but I just wave and say "passing through". By the time he's off his desk I'm 3/4 of the way through, and it would be silly to stop me and turn me around.

Just because someone stops you and tells you that you can't do something doesn't mean you have to stop and discuss it. Just ignore it and move on in a polite and unconfrontational way. When I fill my prescription at Walgreens the door alarm constantly beeps. I'm not going to stand there, wait, and explain myself when they can see I just paid for it. And no one every chases me out.

Yes I know it makes me sound like passive agressive twit, but at least my day is productive. Even if told I couldn't I would still bike through a mall parking lot if it saved a lot of time. I doubt it would ever get to a private detaining and arrest situation.

Stupid rules need to be ignored and/or challenged. Yes I know it's completely subjective, but here's a good example.Case in point (http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5341085)

[deputyjones]

I was cited by the Local Mall Security for riding my bike on mall property. The funny thing is I was riding to work, which is in the mall. I appealed it to the head of their security department and now they will strictly allow me to ride to work only. This country is becoming so stupid. Its all BS.

I find the fact that you could even get a ticket from mall security kind of comical. It would be a worthless sheet of paper here, and I wouldn't get it because they also have no right to detain you in order to give it to you.

To the OP's point: I agree that we need to protect our children, but we also need to instill in them some reasonableness about life choices. Seems ridiculous to me.

[Roody]

I find the fact that you could even get a ticket from mall security kind of comical. It would be a worthless sheet of paper here, and I wouldn't get it because they also have no right to detain you in order to give it to you.

To the OP's point: I agree that we need to protect our children, but we also need to instill in them some reasonableness about life choices. Seems ridiculous to me.
Maybe the fact that she works in the mall makes a difference? Her employer might back up security and give her a really hard time?

As for the schools. I doubt if there is any evidence that cycling is more dangerous than driving or walking, especially for adolescents. Their accident rates are sky high for any mode of transportation except possibly busses. One additional problem is that new schools are frequently built in outlying areas, contribuing to sprawl, traffic, and dangerous commutes for students.

[deputyjones]

Maybe the fact that she works in the mall makes a difference? Her employer might back up security and give her a really hard time?

As for the schools. I doubt if there is any evidence that cycling is more dangerous than driving or walking, especially for adolescents. Their accident rates are sky high for any mode of transportation except possibly busses. One additional problem is that new schools are frequently built in outlying areas, contribuing to sprawl, traffic, and dangerous commutes for students.

Agreed on the accident rate, and it is pretty ironic that they would remove any appearance of promoting cycling but their buses still don't have seat belts.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Wrong. What you hear on the Internet is always true. ;)
Even more truthful than the "facts" spouted on the Letters to the Editor section of local newspapers? Hard to believe!

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Agreed on the accident rate, and it is pretty ironic that they would remove any appearance of promoting cycling but their buses still don't have seat belts.
Think the bused students should wear helmets too? Can't be too safe, ya know, eh?:rolleyes:

[gwd]

This also has to do with the overprivatization of the country. (One of my interests). If a mall/lifestyle center or whatever encompasses such a large swath of land it's impractical to circumvent it (i.e. drains channels, private streets, non-ped friendly design), than that's something that should be addressed.

Keep riding your bike as you see fit. It's not the pentagon.
Last time I was there the Pentagon had bike racks. When I had to commute to Virginia the Pentagon was my favorite snow route because they cleared the multi-use paths around the parking lot while the adjacent Arlington and Alexandria did not clear their paths. It used to be more convenient to bike to the Pentagon than drive because the bike racks were closer to the door than the parking spaces.

Many military installations in this area are bike friendly with showers and bike parking.

[kjohnnytarr]

I have no problem ignoring stupid rules and laws. I understand the reason for such rules is insurance and liability issues in case you're hurt cruising through a parking lot, but plenty of people are hurt walking in parking lots too.

I go by the rule "better to ask forgiveness than permission". Last year I cut through the lobby of a skyscraper downtown to get to the other street, rather than walking around. I generally walk fast and with a sense of purpose, so it's obvious I'm not loitering. I get yelled at by security that "I can't come in without blah blah", but I just wave and say "passing through". By the time he's off his desk I'm 3/4 of the way through, and it would be silly to stop me and turn me around.

Just because someone stops you and tells you that you can't do something doesn't mean you have to stop and discuss it. Just ignore it and move on in a polite and unconfrontational way. When I fill my prescription at Walgreens the door alarm constantly beeps. I'm not going to stand there, wait, and explain myself when they can see I just paid for it. And no one every chases me out.

Yes I know it makes me sound like passive agressive twit, but at least my day is productive. Even if told I couldn't I would still bike through a mall parking lot if it saved a lot of time. I doubt it would ever get to a private detaining and arrest situation.

Stupid rules need to be ignored and/or challenged. Yes I know it's completely subjective, but here's a good example.Case in point (http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_5341085)

That's very wise; I try to do things the same.

Are you by chance any sort of explorer?

[brevig]

I guess it depends on the local. My younger cousin in Ft. Lauderdale informed me he no longer bikes to school because his highschool does not have bike racks.

[rajman]

Is the school held liable if one of the students who DRIVES to school had an accident? I doubt it... That logic is just amazing...

I think this is a good idea - present statistics of how many students nationwide have died in car accidents (not to mention adults - they're endangering their staff too), and get them to get rid of the parking lot. They could replace it with a baseball diamond or something more useful.

Good luck.

P.S. my school doesn't have a bike rack - but there are several city ones in front and the kids often lock their bikes to a wrought iron fence. All in all there is space on the city posts and the fence for maybe 100 bikes, and IIRC we have parking spots for less than 60 cars (many of the teachers walk or take transit) - and students are not permitted to park anywhere around the school (unless they want to park at a meter for two hours or less). Usually we have about 40 cars parked in the various lots and about a dozen bikes.

[fordfasterr]

I guess it depends on the local. My younger cousin in Ft. Lauderdale informed me he no longer bikes to school because his highschool does not have bike racks.

I live in FtLauderdale, what is the name of the school ? :eek:

- Thanks.

[jamesdenver]

That's very wise; I try to do things the same.

Are you by chance any sort of explorer?

Well I love traveling, and as much as I love skiing, hiking and outdoors I also love big cities and urban exploration - subways, maps, architecture...

[brevig]

I live in FtLauderdale, what is the name of the school ? :eek:

- Thanks.

The school is in Weston, to be more specific. I have less frequent contact with him...but I'm sure there aren't many in that vacinity...this one is near Indian Trace or so.

[Cosmoline]

School administrators are hypersensitive to this sort of thing. One parent brings a complaint and they overreact. They do this across the board, not just in re. bike racks.

[JeffS]

Maybe there really is no safe way to walk or bike to some schoools.


What's an example of this?

I'm not saying schools aren't a dangerous area. I live off of a road with three of them, and it's extremely dangerous - almost exclusively because of the huge numbers of parents picking up/dropping off their kids.

One of these moms probably pulled out without looking and almost ran over a ped. She was likely the head of the PTA and started a crusade to protect the poor kids whose parents forced them to walk and ride a bike.

My stance is we should protect the kids by banning car pickup/dropoff.

[brevig]

...almost exclusively because of the huge numbers of parents picking up/dropping off their kids.

This causes me to remember back to driving to work in Michigan a few years ago. I could definitely tell a difference in commute on days there was no school (like the summer or holidays). Much easier and faster ride. I support more buses or children riding bikes/walking. Parents should not be at the mercy of their children to act as their chaffeur. This only goes back to overall paranoia, though. I've seen many adults walk a child a few yards in the dark so the child is not abducted.

[xyz]

Unacceptable. Pardon my crudeness, but the bigger perspective on the problem as I see it is this:

If we treat our kids like wusses and idiots, that's what they will grow up to become.

It's amazing how many parents, teachers, etc. treat kids as if they were incapable and stupid. I say, with conviction, that the best way to raise a child is to thrust responsibility upon them, and then hold them accountable for their actions.

I think we need to reintroduce wolves and bears to parks and playgrounds, bring back natural selection.

[bragi]

I'll probably get thumped for saying so, but I've noticed a huge cultural divide here; it's as if we're talking about two totally different societies. Those who post from the South report a culture that is positively hostile to bicycling in all its forms (No bike racks at the high school, trying to give a ticket to a person who's only trying to get to work by bike); other places in North America report full bike racks, with a demand for more. I know that here in Seattle, the very suggestion that you couldn't ride a bike to school or work would be greeted with blank stares of incomprehension. (People up here tend to be too passive aggressive to actually tell you you're full of of s****.) Is it just my imagination, or is this cultural difference a real one?

[xyz]

Depends on how the area is built up. I was carless in New Orleans for 3 years right untill the storm. That place sucked. Walking down the sidewalk is dangerous there. With all the canals(plus the normal walls of freeways) there are only a handfull of roads you could move on. Inside the Island you can get around but long distances are out. In theory the greenbelts around the city on the outside of the levy system could let you move around, but that system is in bad shape even before the storm. I tried to ride the the Mississippi a few times when I first moved there, holy crap were those awefull rides. Never did see that river.

Boise was ok depending on where you need to go. The city is on three different levels(perfect place for a subway/train system, but it's to small for that), a river, and a free way. The green belt there lets you get around that mess ok, but there are still a lot of choke points.

Any place where it's more dangerous to ride people are going to get pissed if people are riding there. Maybe bike riders are use to riding in places like that but drivers don't have the same level of ability.

[bigpedaler]

GGDub said that "North American society has become one that makes decisions based on fear and liability and not on common sense." He's right but you've got to realize that the lawyers aren't the ones MAKING the decisions based on fear and liability. The school officials are the scared decision makers.

school officials are scared for good reason -- the lawyers! USA has 77% of the world's lawyers, and more in law school than the rest of the world has in full practice! when you can be sued, successfully, because some silly old witch burns her ^&%# spilling McD's coffee that SHE set down there to start with, well....

special interests act like super-moms, trying to protect us from every 1% of risk in life, and those &^%$^%$^$%^%#^% lawyers flocking to the cause like piranha to a belly-slit goat, the average american citizen has little chance. we need a LOT more commonsense in the court system; case in point, it would be great if things like this happened more often:

woman const. worker sued her employer for sex discrim. over a centerfold posted at the jobsite -- she won the case -- was awarded $1. when people learn that the courtroom isn't a cash cow you can milk at will, silliness will stop.

P.S. what do you have when 65 lawyers in a school bus roll off a cliff? a tragedy; what's a crying shame? one empty seat on the bus.

[donnamb]

I attended our bike club's monthly meeting last night and I heard something I found to be quite disturbing. A high school in a neighboring city removed their bike racks. They did it because they 1) did not want to promote/encourage biking to school because it's just too dangerous and 2) because they didn't want to be held liable should someone have an accident (since they were obviously encouraging biking by providing bike racks).

So what's next? A ban on riding your bike to the supermarket because they don't want to be held liable? Is anyone else bothered by this? Is it possible that our biking lifestyle is being threatened to the point that biking will be not feasible anymore?

:eek:

(Yes, I am aware of my tendency towards jumping to the worst possible conclusion.)
Ellen, have you contacted your local/regional bike advocacy organization? These kinds of groups are usually heavily involved in Safe Routes to Schools programs, and either they know what happened or are going to be hopping mad when you tell them and will most likely contact the school district in question.

It's amazing to hear these kinds of stories when the schools in my area never seem to have enough racks in good weather.

[twochins]

bicycling is simply too much physical exertion for young people, especially at the very early hours of the morning...we need to eliminate gym class as well for these same rather obvious reasons ...we also need to make sure that students do not have too walk too far between classes (certainly without carrying books or other study materials), distances should be kept to a minimum or eliminated where possible...

[voileauciel]

Unacceptable. Pardon my crudeness, but the bigger perspective on the problem as I see it is this:

If we treat our kids like wusses and idiots, that's what they will grow up to become.

It's amazing how many parents, teachers, etc. treat kids as if they were incapable and stupid. I say, with conviction, that the best way to raise a child is to thrust responsibility upon them, and then hold them accountable for their actions.

I hate to say this, but looking at my generation (I'm 22) that has already happened!!!

It's so sad that American society has become the 800lb Gorilla.....

I'm just glad I'm moving to Europe after I finish my BA in French.....

[voileauciel]

I think we need to reintroduce wolves and bears to parks and playgrounds, bring back natural selection.

Or how about taking all those ridiculous warning labels off of everything. In my grandfather's day, the kid who swallowed too many pennies or who ate his jacks didn't grow up to have children of his own...

Furthermore, I agree with the notion that it appears as though there are two different cultural perspectives going on here:

The South - Religious, conservative, obsessed with anything and everything BIG! It's no wonder they're banning bicycle racks...they want their kids to turn into overweight misogynists and pig-women just like their parents: driving SUVs and sucking down BigMacs like it's an Olympic sport. And don't get me started on the whole pickup truck BS...

The North: Not as religious as the South, more liberal, and home to the majority of all the pig-headed, money-grubbing, obnoxious lawyers; the d(^%-headed bankers and the majority of this country's so-called "social elite." Here we have the soccer-moms and all the overprotective and overconcerned, scared little piss-ant parents who are OBSESSED with child-proofing EVERYTHING and who live in constant fear of what the media brainwashes them into thinking will give them cancer, harm their children, or put even a minor dent in their bank accounts.

What I'm getting at here is our whole society is completely, totally, and ROYALLY (insert expletive)-up!

Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. If I offended anyone, I apologise and will now immediately check myself into rehab.

[I-Like-To-Bike]

...What I'm getting at here is our whole society is completely, totally, and ROYALLY (insert expletive)-up!
Sorry, I'll get off my soapbox now. If I offended anyone, I apologise and will now immediately check myself into rehab.
Any thoughts on the French?

[I-Like-To-Bike]

It's amazing to hear these kinds of stories when the schools in my area never seem to have enough racks in good weather.
The middle school near me with a student body of around 350. No helmet laws, no nannys, no dang problems. Pictures taken last year.

[ellenDSD]

...to protect the poor kids whose parents forced them to walk and ride a bike...



Next the parents of the poor kids who are forced to walk or ride their bikes will be reported to CPS (Children's Protective Services), the children will be removed from their homes and the parents locked up for child abuse. Sounds crazy, doesn't it?!

[chephy]

Next the parents of the poor kids who are forced to walk or ride their bikes will be reported to CPS (Children's Protective Services), the children will be removed from their homes and the parents locked up for child abuse. Sounds crazy, doesn't it?! Crazy but completely believable. Wasn't there a case discussed on these boards of a kid who walked a mile to school and whose principal called the parents and threatened to set the social workers on them for forcing the kid to undertake such a perilous journey?

[fordfasterr]

The school is in Weston, to be more specific. I have less frequent contact with him...but I'm sure there aren't many in that vacinity...this one is near Indian Trace or so.


Weston is touted as one of the most bike friendly cities in south florida. I wonder what makes that school think that it's not ?

I called and spoke to the assistant principal, she does not know anything about bike rack removals, however i asked if she could take a look and confirm that the bike racks were there or not.

She said they are normally right in the front of the building and that she would call me back after she checks...



- edit. She called me back and said the bike racks are right where they've always been.

It is possible, however, that access to them has been blocked ... I forgot to ask her that... =(

[I-Like-To-Bike]

Crazy but completely believable. Wasn't there a case discussed on these boards of a kid who walked a mile to school and whose principal called the parents and threatened to set the social workers on them for forcing the kid to undertake such a perilous journey?
Crazy, believable AND a straw man. Sounds like an urban legend was discussed somewhere by somebody(ies).

[voileauciel]

Any thoughts on the French?

You go to any major city in this country, and just like Paris, you'll find the same thing: people living on top each other, in a hurry to get somewhere to do something (or someone...:p )

To Americans, the French are snooty, rude, obnoxious frogs. To the French, Americans are phony, rude, obnoxious pigs. The way I look at it, we balance out!

In all seriousness, I've met and known many French people over the years. Most of them are kind, considerate, warm individuals. Hence, I think it best to ignore stereotypes and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. The point I was making above is that our own society is not perfect, nor is any other. But at least in Europe, there is more tolerance for cyclists (and free healthcare in the event of an accident!)

C

[I-Like-To-Bike]

The point I was making above is that our own society is not perfect, nor is any other. So your point, "What I'm getting at here is our whole society is completely, totally, and ROYALLY (insert expletive)-up!" applies everywhere, or not at all?

BTW, My generalization/stereotyping about French is that every single woman I ever saw in Paris looked sexy and hot! I listened to French radio for 5 years and didn't understand a word but the Female DJ's sounded sexy and hot! And played the best playlist ever 24/7, made up of American R&B, jazz and a little classical music tossed in every now and then; Hot! The only difference between my generalizing and yours is that mine is 100% on target and true.:)

[LandLuger]

My stance is we should protect the kids by banning car pickup/dropoff.

Interesting. Anywhere that this has been successfully implemented? Perhaps the school could require that special permission be obtained by the parent/guardian needing an exception on a case by case basis. The parents would have far fewer concerns over the children arriving home safely. The more I consider your proposal the more appealing it becomes.

[LandLuger]

Next the parents of the poor kids who are forced to walk or ride their bikes will be reported to CPS (Children's Protective Services), the children will be removed from their homes and the parents locked up for child abuse. Sounds crazy, doesn't it?!

If what you described did occur to my family, I can tell you that I would have a very difficult time finding any other parent in the city that would be sympathetic to my desire to bike my children to school. The looks that I get from other parents when I drop off my kids speak volumes; they are absolutely appalled. No mind that I travel very quiet 30MPH posted roads where I might have interaction with only a handful of vehicles on the way and my bike has enough flashing xenon strobes to be more irritating than a Christmas tree in March--just the fact that I'm not cocooning my family in 6,000 lbs. of SUV and airbags opens me to incessant criticism from my peers.